Republicans fall quiet in face of Obama deficit success

[JQPublic1]

I could go on and on about the inaccuracies of GDP, but there's a few for you. Just in the two examples above we've accounted for nearly 45% of the GDP being made up by the government. Yet you wish to tell me that GDP isn't inaccurate? Yeah okay buddy.

I know one thing that is inaccurate and I can see that for myself. This is an unveiled, empirical example of things that are inaccurate:

well, whooop dee doo !!

what about the DEBT ?

still over $16,000,000,000,000,000

That's nice. As you'll notice, the picture in his original post (which I couldn't quote because I didn't have enough posts on the forum), is accurate. So do you have anything to say besides continually quoting someone else's typo to say to me? Or is that about all you have? Don't bother responding unless you have something intelligent to say about MY posts.

That is no typo! That is abject stupidity! Thats what you Right Wingers do: follow your leaders no matter how dumb he/she is! BTW the difference between 16 trillion and 16 quadrillion is quite large... if that is not significant to you then nothing is. I hope you don't go though life making huge mistakes like that!

 

[ilia25]

. Meaning that 35% of the GDP in 2003 was simply made up.

So what? GDP is just a number. It only has meaning in comparison with another number. For example, you can compare this year's GDP to past years, so you can see how the economy is growing. And as long as the methodology for computing GDP is the same (or, if you want, it is inflated the same way) you end up with a valid growth estimate.

 

[JQPublic1]

AMERICA IS NOT BROKE​

China also has the ability to purchase your debt through all the trading you have done with them. Not because the US actually exports to them, but because the United States is too broke and un-competitive that it would rather trade worthless paper, in exchange for Chinese exports.

The United States is NOT broke! And your "uncompetitive" remark drips with sarcasm but you really mean that American workers wanting a fair wage and healthy work environment are making our country uncompetitive! I disagree! Obviously, U are NO United States Citizen although you might be from one of the Americas! Thanks GOD I live in the USA and not where you come from!

Total national debt to the penny is 16,736,576,618,573.30. Total consumer debt as of 2,807 Trillion. Trade Deficits averaging -$500 Billion dollars a year. Current Account Balance -$424 Billion as of Q4 of 2012.

You're broke and in more ways than one. But I suppose the more debt you owe, the wealthier you are. That is a very neat lesson that I have learned from our very own congressmen, Pete Stark.#359

I have a life outside of this forum so my posts have not been as prolific as those of others who seem almost ubiquitous on the INTERNET.Nevertheless, I am determined to get my points across to those who care to read them... and, I press on.

I see that your narrative is limited in scope and does a dis-service to those who might fall for that "America is broke" crap!, No. We are not broke. Not by a long shot!.

We The People own:

• More than 900,000 separate real assets covering more than 3 billion sq. ft.
• Mineral rights, on and offshore, covering 2.515 billion acres of land, more than the total surface land in Canada
• 45,190 underutilized buildings, the operating costs of which are $1.66 billion annually
• Oil and gas resources on and offshore worth $128 trillion, roughly eight times the national debt of the country

And while you are looking over your nostrils at those facts, don't stop there...head on down to the Federal gold stash where more than one quarter of a billion ounces light up the vaults!

Outstanding student loans are reported to be worth around $940 Billion...at face value but are likely to be worth less in real value since some are in default and may never be paid back... still a "conservative" guess would still make most of those loans a substantial asset.... I am sad to say!...Education ought to be free!

MESSAGE TO MY FELLOW AMERICANS:
, AMERICA IS NOT BROKE! The Right WING SPINSTERS WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE OTHERWISE SO THEY CAN TAKE YOUR PENSIONS AND LOWER YOUR WAGES!

 

[AmazonTania]

You have messed up your quotes, I didn't make the first statement that you attribute to me.

Okay.

At this point I think you are just trying to be difficult. GDP is not flawed but like any metric it has limits. There is no reason to know the history of it any more than you need to know the history of a scale in order to know when to use it and its limitations.

Understanding it's history helps understand it's historical limitations, and why it is indeed a flawed metric. It's no different than the CPI. Also, I am suggesting that it is flawed depending on how it's used.

If someone is regurgitating the statistic that other countries spends less than the United States as a percentage of GDP, the you are using it as a bogus metric. The same is true if you are simply looking at GDP only as a tool of economic health. The metric has merely become a propaganda piece for statist to point at to show that their policies have worked, when in reality it has not..

More spending equals more production which translates to more income and round and round we go. It doesn't have to equal more debt.

You have the cart before the horse, similar to those who believe the best way to grow and economy is to grow the middle class. A middle class is the result of a growing economy, not the other way around, just as spending is the result of production. Spending in itself does nothing. It's only the modern methods of economic accounting which makes sending seem genuine.

You have to produce before you can consume. Something has to be produced to give the spending any value.Spending is merely the yardstick that we use to measure production.

Please feel free to enlighten us with your solutions to our economic woes.

That ship has sailed. The nation traded an economic contraction, followed by meaningful recovery to a artificial high, followed by a an more severe economic contraction and an even more painful recovery.

While spending doesn't always have to lead to more debt, it doesn't take away the fact that it is leading to more debt. It is counter-intuitive. As America are going into debt to maintain their artificial lifestyle and the government which protects them is willing to surrender it's future income and interest payments to foreign lenders. When the time comes, you will only have two options: Default or Inflation.

Until then, rather than focus on policies which increases spending, you should be focusing on policies which increases production. This means more savings, capital investments, trade liberalisation, etc, etc. As China is vastly making new records in consumer markets, even they have realised that an economy cannot last forever solely on production. America needs to understand the same thing when it comes to spending.

 

[AmazonTania]

That is no typo! That is abject stupidity! Thats what you Right Wingers do: follow your leaders no matter how dumb he/she is! BTW the difference between 16 trillion and 16 quadrillion is quite large... if that is not significant to you then nothing is. I hope you don't go though life making huge mistakes like that!

Not really. For example, I can create a spin friendly way of making the national debt look smaller.

It's no big deal! The nation is only in debt by .016 quadrillion...

 

[AmazonTania]

AMERICA IS NOT BROKE​

China also has the ability to purchase your debt through all the trading you have done with them. Not because the US actually exports to them, but because the United States is too broke and un-competitive that it would rather trade worthless paper, in exchange for Chinese exports.

The United States is NOT broke! And your "uncompetitive" remark drips with sarcasm but you really mean that American workers wanting a fair wage and healthy work environment are making our country uncompetitive! I disagree! Obviously, U are NO United States Citizen although you might be from one of the Americas! Thanks GOD I live in the USA and not where you come from!

Total national debt to the penny is 16,736,576,618,573.30. Total consumer debt as of 2,807 Trillion. Trade Deficits averaging -$500 Billion dollars a year. Current Account Balance -$424 Billion as of Q4 of 2012.

You're broke and in more ways than one. But I suppose the more debt you owe, the wealthier you are. That is a very neat lesson that I have learned from our very own congressmen, Pete Stark.#359

I have a life outside of this forum so my posts have not been as prolific as those of others who seem almost ubiquitous on the INTERNET.Nevertheless, I am determined to get my points across to those who care to read them... and, I press on.

You say that as if you are the only person on this forum with a life. Then again, given the amount of blokes on this forum who generally take post and comments too seriously, you may be right.

I see that your narrative is limited in scope and does a dis-service to those who might fall for that "America is broke" crap!, No. We are not broke. Not by a long shot!.

We The People own:

• More than 900,000 separate real assets covering more than 3 billion sq. ft.
• Mineral rights, on and offshore, covering 2.515 billion acres of land, more than the total surface land in Canada
• 45,190 underutilized buildings, the operating costs of which are $1.66 billion annually

You think just because you have possessions that you are not broke? Just because you are in possession of something, doesn't necessarily make it an asset. Even if it is an asset, it can also be a liability as well. Although, it can still be solely an asset if you have some equity attached towards your possession.

What I am simply trying to say, just because you have possessions doesn't mean you have wealth. You are wealthy if you have net-worth, or in your case, not broke.

As Net Worth = Assets - Liabilities.

Or just in case you have some assets which are rather difficult to measure in terms of value.

Tangible Net Worth = Total Assets - Total Liabilities - Intangible Assets.

• Oil and gas resources on and offshore worth $128 trillion, roughly eight times the national debt of the country

The government has made it illegal to drill in most parts of the cost and reverse in the country. Although it is perfectly fine for other foreign companies to drill at those reserves if they so choose to. Nonetheless, you are not wealthy simply because your country happens to inhabit an area with a natural resource. If you haven't found a way to use said resource, or just decided not to utilize it, it is simply waste.

And while you are looking over your nostrils at those facts, don't stop there...head on down to the Federal gold stash where more than one quarter of a billion ounces light up the vaults!

Aside from the fact that a lot of that Gold doesn't belong to the government, much of that gold was confiscated by FDR under Executive Order 6102.

Outstanding student loans are reported to be worth around $940 Billion...at face value but are likely to be worth less in real value since some are in default and may never be paid back... still a "conservative" guess would still make most of those loans a substantial asset.... I am sad to say!...Education ought to be free!

Or the Government should get out of the business in providing Government Guaranteed Student Loans. But I suppose it should be free. After all, the nation practically destroyed the value of the college degree. After all, what value does something have if almost everyone has it. As more and more employers starts to screen the education portions of their job applications, it's gotten to the point where no one can get a job unless they have graduated from an Ivy League School.

But it is certainly a good message we have sent to the nation, that you need a college degree just to be able to have the advantage when it comes to waiting tables and cleaning bathrooms.

MESSAGE TO MY FELLOW AMERICANS:
, AMERICA IS NOT BROKE! The Right WING SPINSTERS WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE OTHERWISE SO THEY CAN TAKE YOUR PENSIONS AND LOWER YOUR WAGES!

Who the hell are you talking to?

 

[ilia25]

And from whom exactly the government borrowed those $248 billion?

Social Security Administration, Department of Labour, Health and Human Services, Veteran Affairs, Office of Personal Management.

Just to name a few.

Ah, I see what you mean. Well, honey, you can't call that borrowing by the government. The government simply moved money between its own accounts. It's like if you moved money from your saving account to your checking account -- you would not call that borrowing either.

 

[Eric Cartman]

Sure more spending in theory results in more production.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

As to all the tangential stuff: I said GDP is limited and you say it is flawed, sounds like a pointless semantic argument to me. I started off by saying "If you believe that GDP is ..." and latter pointed out that there are better indices. If you know how a metric is calculated then I don't see how it can be flawed... it might not be useful but flawed?

If you step on a bathroom scale and it says 300 lb is that metric useful? You might be 6 foot 6 and all muscle or a 5 foot tub of lard or maybe you are holding 50 lb dumbbells but if you weigh everyday at the same time and conditions it might provide you with useful information.

If you turned on the radio and the new caster announced that the GDP had dropped 9% for two straight quarters would the tell you anything? Maybe not, you do appear to be a fan of von Mises.

 

[ilia25]

Until then, rather than focus on policies which increases spending, you should be focusing on policies which increases production.

Except real life is the opposite to your description. America has a lot of excess production capacity, which is sitting idle because consumers spend too little to put that production capacity in use. Unemployed are just a part of that excess production capacity.

America are going into debt to maintain their artificial lifestyle and the government which protects them is willing to surrender it's future income and interest payments to foreign lenders.

Again, you are dreaming. In real life Americans who are in debt owe most of their money to other Americans. Then some money Americans owe to foreigners, but foreigners also owe just as much to Americans. Except foreigners are paying more interest to Americans than vice versa -- because American assets abroad are more profitable than foreign assets in the US.

Oh, and about China. It is not buying the US debt out of charity. This is how they keep their currency undervalued against the dollar -- a policy, which America is vocally opposed to.

Anyway, keep dreaming about Default or Inflation. Just don't hold your breath.

 

[AmazonTania]

And from whom exactly the government borrowed those $248 billion?

Social Security Administration, Department of Labour, Health and Human Services, Veteran Affairs, Office of Personal Management.

Just to name a few.

Ah, I see what you mean. Well, honey, you can't call that borrowing by the government. The government simply moved money between its own accounts.

What it whatever you want. Just don't call it a surplus when you borrow, er, 'transfer' money from a Government Trust Fund and use it to fund Government Spending.

It's like if you moved money from your saving account to your checking account -- you would not call that borrowing either.

That's hardly the same thing. I'm not obligated to pay myself back when I transfer funds between different accounts. However, if I plan on saving that money for something (for example, retirement), then I have no choice but to return the money as some future point in time.

That is exactly what happens when you borrow money from yourself. Just as the Government does.

 

[ilia25]

Social Security Administration, Department of Labour, Health and Human Services, Veteran Affairs, Office of Personal Management.

Just to name a few.

Ah, I see what you mean. Well, honey, you can't call that borrowing by the government. The government simply moved money between its own accounts.

What it whatever you want. Just don't call it a surplus when you borrow, er, 'transfer' money from a Government Trust Fund and use it to fund Government Spending.

That is where you are wrong. The money Treasury borrowed from government Trust fund were NOT used to fund "government spending". The Treasury had a surplus, meaning it received more tax revenue than it could spend.

But the Treasury had to roll over its existing debt, so it keeps selling a lot of bonds even when it has a surplus. In this case many of those bonds were bought by Social Security Administration and other agencies. So it really was the case of moving money from one account to another -- but those money never left the government accounts and were not spent.

 

[AmazonTania]

Until then, rather than focus on policies which increases spending, you should be focusing on policies which increases production.

Except real life is the opposite to your description. America has a lot of excess production capacity, which is sitting idle because consumers spend too little to put that production capacity in use. Unemployed are just a part of that excess production capacity.

Yeah. They spend to little. That's always the problem. Of course, when things don't pan out the way you suggest, one can always argue that if we did 'alittle more spending,' things will turn out okay. Especially when there is clearly not a spending problem, retail sales are higher and corporations are making record profits. So more spending, right?

At some point you will have to realise the rhetoric you subscribe to yields little sense.

Again, you are dreaming. In real life Americans who are in debt owe most of their money to other Americans. Then some money Americans owe to foreigners, but foreigners also owe just as much to Americans. Except foreigners are paying more interest to Americans than vice versa -- because American assets abroad are more profitable than foreign assets in the US.

That explains why our Capital Account is a disaster.

Oh, and about China. It is not buying the US debt out of charity. This is how they keep their currency undervalued against the dollar -- a policy, which America is vocally opposed to.

Central banks around the world are devaluing their currency against the dollar. Not just the Chinese. And yes, it is very much an act of charity. there really is no rational reason why a Central Bank would want to destroy the purchasing power and the standard of living to help out another nation. Oh, to sell more exports, of course. That's always a good thing... On the flip-side, the inflation bug has infected many of these central bankers as they have convinced themselves that a strong currency is not a very good thing.

And America shouldn't be opposed to China's currency manipulation (especially when America is also a currency manipulator). A weak Yuan is the only way Americans can afford to purchase Chinese goods, as almost half of US exports consist of Chinese goods.

The American economy would be wiped out if the value of the Reminbi were to rise, and their standard of living will go along with it. China lives way below it's means so Americans can live way above theirs.

Anyway, keep dreaming about Default or Inflation. Just don't hold your breath.

I don't hold my breath. I just invest accordingly, as it is far more lucrative for me to invest aboard than it is in America. Granted, you are far better investing in stocks than you are having your money sitting in a bank account.

I don't think I need to dream about defaulting either. The government can either do it legit or through inflation. There are no 'ifs' about that. It's all a matter of when. Especially when your public officials let on that the Government is running a giant ponzi scheme.

 

[Chris]

George W. Bush inherited a strong economy, a budget surplus, and a nation at peace.

Eight years later, he left Obama with a shattered economy, a trillion dollar deficit, and two useless wars.

Obama saved the country from another Great Depression, rebuilt GM, reformed healthcare, reformed Wall Street, doubled the stock market, created 14 straight quarters of GDP growth, created 38 straight months of private sector job growth, got Bin Laden, got Gaddafi, and got us out of Iraq.

Obama has done a very good job.

 

[ABikerSailor]

George W. Bush inherited a strong economy, a budget surplus, and a nation at peace.

Eight years later, he left Obama with a shattered economy, a trillion dollar deficit, and two useless wars.

Obama saved the country from another Great Depression, rebuilt GM, reformed healthcare, reformed Wall Street, doubled the stock market, created 14 straight quarters of GDP growth, created 38 straight months of private sector job growth, got Bin Laden, got Gaddafi, and got us out of Iraq.

Obama has done a very good job.

Yep.............only problem is that most of the GOP is following Mitch McConnell and wanting to make Obama a 1 term president.

Only trouble is, he's done better than Jr. ever did, and he's been elected to a 2nd term.

Hopefully the GOP will start working with the President (like this year), or else they're gonna lose badly in 2014.

 

[AmazonTania]

Ah, I see what you mean. Well, honey, you can't call that borrowing by the government. The government simply moved money between its own accounts.

What it whatever you want. Just don't call it a surplus when you borrow, er, 'transfer' money from a Government Trust Fund and use it to fund Government Spending.

That is where you are wrong. The money Treasury borrowed from government Trust fund were NOT used to fund "government spending". The Treasury had a surplus, meaning it received more tax revenue than it could spend.

Not true. Any surplus in these programs must be invested in a trust fund. When you take money out of said trust fund, you leave an IOU. This is why Intragovernmental Debt increases when Government does this. It's not like a corporation deciding on what to do with it's left over profits. It's taking money out of a US Security and using it to spend current Government operations.

But the Treasury had to roll over its existing debt, so it keeps selling a lot of bonds even when it has a surplus. In this case many of those bonds were bought by Social Security Administration and other agencies. So it really was the case of moving money from one account to another -- but those money never left the government accounts and were not spent.

That's an interesting explanation, but that really isn't what happened. If the Government were to use the surpluses from the trust fund and pay down the public debt, the public debt would decrease by the same amount as the increase in the intragovernmental debt. As a result, nothing would have happened to the national debt. Same thing if the a US treasury were rolled over a bond. Virtually nothing happens to the debt. All that may happen is that the interests may change. But this isn't a case of taking some money from your right pocket and putting it in your left. Government takes money from a contingent liability, writes an IOU and uses that money.

 

[S.J.]

George W. Bush inherited a strong economy, a budget surplus, and a nation at peace.

Eight years later, he left Obama with a shattered economy, a trillion dollar deficit, and two useless wars.

Obama saved the country from another Great Depression, rebuilt GM, reformed healthcare, reformed Wall Street, doubled the stock market, created 14 straight quarters of GDP growth, created 38 straight months of private sector job growth, got Bin Laden, got Gaddafi, and got us out of Iraq.

Obama has done a very good job.

Yep.............only problem is that most of the GOP is following Mitch McConnell and wanting to make Obama a 1 term president.

Only trouble is, he's done better than Jr. ever did, and he's been elected to a 2nd term.

Hopefully the GOP will start working with the President (like this year), or else they're gonna lose badly in 2014.

Well, when your billionaire backer and puppet master owns the company that counts the votes, it's a pretty safe bet you'll win the election.

 

[ABikerSailor]

George W. Bush inherited a strong economy, a budget surplus, and a nation at peace.

Eight years later, he left Obama with a shattered economy, a trillion dollar deficit, and two useless wars.

Obama saved the country from another Great Depression, rebuilt GM, reformed healthcare, reformed Wall Street, doubled the stock market, created 14 straight quarters of GDP growth, created 38 straight months of private sector job growth, got Bin Laden, got Gaddafi, and got us out of Iraq.

Obama has done a very good job.

Yep.............only problem is that most of the GOP is following Mitch McConnell and wanting to make Obama a 1 term president.

Only trouble is, he's done better than Jr. ever did, and he's been elected to a 2nd term.

Hopefully the GOP will start working with the President (like this year), or else they're gonna lose badly in 2014.

Well, when your billionaire backer and puppet master owns the company that counts the votes, it's a pretty safe bet you'll win the election.

Really? Sounds like what Jr. did in Florida in 2004.

 

[S.J.]

Yep.............only problem is that most of the GOP is following Mitch McConnell and wanting to make Obama a 1 term president.

Only trouble is, he's done better than Jr. ever did, and he's been elected to a 2nd term.

Hopefully the GOP will start working with the President (like this year), or else they're gonna lose badly in 2014.

Well, when your billionaire backer and puppet master owns the company that counts the votes, it's a pretty safe bet you'll win the election.

Really? Sounds like what Jr. did in Florida in 2004.

You mean 2,000? Still whining about 2,000 eh? They counted the votes 3 times, and Gore lost 3 times. AFTER it was all over, the Miami Herald went in and counted ALL the votes in ALL the precincts, and guess what? Gore STILL LOST. Now, unless you know something the rest of the country doesn't, quit your fucking whining.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Well, when your billionaire backer and puppet master owns the company that counts the votes, it's a pretty safe bet you'll win the election.

Really? Sounds like what Jr. did in Florida in 2004.

You mean 2,000? Still whining about 2,000 eh? They counted the votes 3 times, and Gore lost 3 times. AFTER it was all over, the Miami Herald went in and counted ALL the votes in ALL the precincts, and guess what? Gore STILL LOST. Now, unless you know something the rest of the country doesn't, quit your fucking whining.

I will.

But only after the GOP quits whining about losing to Obama.

 

[S.J.]

Really? Sounds like what Jr. did in Florida in 2004.

You mean 2,000? Still whining about 2,000 eh? They counted the votes 3 times, and Gore lost 3 times. AFTER it was all over, the Miami Herald went in and counted ALL the votes in ALL the precincts, and guess what? Gore STILL LOST. Now, unless you know something the rest of the country doesn't, quit your fucking whining.

I will.

But only after the GOP quits whining about losing to Obama.

The difference is there was evidence of voter fraud in 2008 and 2012 on the part of Democrats. Same in 2,000 but not enough to tip it in Gore's favor.