Republicans to target unions, expand school choice in states

[Flopper]

Class size has a LOT to do with it. In fact, earlier in this thread I quoted an article that listed the 5 main reasons parents chose private schools and smaller class size was at the top of the list. How can one teacher effectively teach a class of 60 fifth graders? You're arguing against exactly what makes private schools successful. We need more teachers.

The reason I argue against that is because I went to a private school. This was during the baby boom era, and we had 39 kids in my class. I'd match that class against any public school that had much smaller class sizes.

Smaller classes is a union thing. They are not looking out for the kids, they are looking out for themselves. Perhaps some parents bought into that as well, I don't know. Smaller classes may help with an out of control room of kids perhaps, but that's about it.

Have you ever taught a class with 39 kids; I have. In such an environment, kids that need any extra help don't get. There is not enough class time to cover the material and have any interaction with the kids. Most teachers in that environment, hardly even know their students. On parent teacher night, a parent wants to discuss the problem Johnny is having in math and you can't remember which Johnny is their son. Thankfully, I only had to spend two years teaching in the zoo. Frankly, I wish every parent had the opportunity to teach an overloaded class of 3rd graders.

In private schools, larger class sizes may well be tolerable since the school has the opportunity to select their students, no special ed kids, no juvenile delinquents, no kids that can't speak English, no kids that are 3 grade levels behind. Public schools have to take whatever walks in the door.

 

[initforme]

Get rid of all unions, cut overtime pay, social security bad....same old swamp.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Get rid of all unions, cut overtime pay, social security bad....same old swamp.

You forgot bring back slavery.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Yet that's the only measure we have, isn't it? The point is, in Milwaukee, test scores when DOWN after they looted the systems and let all the scammers get into play. ANother place where the scores went down was in Michigan, were Betsy Devos got school choice put in and things got measurably worse.

The problem is, you can't move the problem kids without moving the problems. moving the kid from the problem district to the good district just means you are moving the problem, not fixing it. This isn't complicated.

When did this happen? In fact, the opposite is true. Poor kids in Chicago have a lot less spent on them than rich kids in Evanston...(to use an IL example.)


— Due to the primary reliance on local property tax revenue for school funding, there are massive cumulative gaps in per-pupil spending, particularly in poor or minority communities. The 6,413 students who started elementary school in Evanston [a suburb north of Chicago] in 1994 and graduated from high school in 2007 had about $290 million more spent on their education than the same number of Chicago Public Schools students.— Many of the school districts that spent the most per-student received at least 90 percent of their money from local property taxes. Yet, these districts tended to tax themselves at far lower rates than their poorer counterparts.

Only dishonest Meth head Joe would try to compare Chicago to the richest district in Illinois..


BTW Chicago spends $16,000 per student

Evanston spends $18,000


Washington DC home to one of the worst test scores in the nation they spend $ 29,000 per pupil

Newark, NJ over $20k.....My school district in northern NJ, spends about half that.

... and how is that money allocated? How much actually goes to the student in each of districts, and how much of that is consumed in overhead (due to the inflated administration structure, high cost of real property, etc)?

In your district, how much to build a school, compared to Newark?

The breakdown is while most of the funding goes to labor and facilities, the bottom line is student achievement. Spending on actual education is higher because the more the district receives, the more it spends Therefore it would make sense that more is actually spent on education where per student funding is higher.
Wheal leaves me scratching my head, is where the dollars go. One aspect of home rule states such as NJ, the local school boards have greater control and latitude with regard to spending and of course these Home Rule states also allow school boards to have autonomous taxing authority with only a small amount of accountability..

... and, therein, lies the fallacy of your argument ... "... they get more money, so they spend more money, ergo, they provide better education". Studies prove that there is very little correlation between $$ and quality of education.

However, your point about local rule is very appropriate. But, since only 10 states DON'T have home rule, it's almost facetious to suggest that home rule (local taxation) has a significant impact on quality of education. You can find Home Rule states at both ends of the spectrum.

The real impact of Home Rule is the acceptability (some would say 'gullibility') by the local community to whatever the school board is doing - a "... we gave you the money you asked for, now make it happen ... and don't bother us any more" sort of laissez faire attitude. This was especially true during the 1960's-1990s, where a request for increased funding by schools went virtually unopposed. Slowly, people began to realize that they weren't getting what they were paying for, and rejection of funding requests today is the norm, rather than the exception. The people recognize that they are not educational experts, but they aren't getting what they want from the schools today.

School board, administrators, teachers, and unions very much portray a "we know best" attitude. They think it is beneath their station to have to ACTUALLY explain what they are doing - better for the minions sit quietly and let them do whatever they want. There is nothing more infuriating than being told "... you wouldn't understand this, so just run along home and let the experts handle it".

As a former school board member, the arrogance of the education elite was a constant irritant. God forbid you should actually ask the question, "Why?" Teachers and administrators take that as a direct insult. How DARE you question their righteousness? And, of course, unions are the bane to constructive change - their interest - their ONLY interest - is to protect the status quo in order to protect their dues paying members. Everything put before the unions is first measured against the "what's good for the union" and then the "what's good for our members" mantra.

So, the people feel alienated by the local educational aristocracy, and they turn to their political representatives for relief. Washington, of course, wants to solve the problem - but they are a single entity, and as such, are experts at the "one size fits all" approach. They can't produce multi-faceted answers that can be changed based on local conditions. So, when a community objects to federal imposition on a particular issue, the wield the ultimate hammer - do it or we'll take away your federal funding. And, of course, local school boards and administrators immediately cave in because to lose that money would threaten their own little kingdom.

In addition, the federal government quickly realized that they can increase their own power base by consuming (or usurping) the power that used to be allotted to local control. Thus, you get the decidedly perverted Common Core - an approach great in concept, but a train wreck in application.

We have gone so far down the government control road that we need, simply, to blow it all up - and start over. Maybe local control of for-profit schools is the answer. Maybe charter schools, private schools, school choice, or locally mandated standards of performance of administrators and teachers (measured by student proficiency).

Two things for sure - 1) the answer won't be easy, and 2) it will piss off about 49.9% of the people (and 90% of the educators).

Umm. You misunderstand. We are arguing the same side of the issue.
I am opposed to the concept of throwing money at a problem in the hopes that the money will make the problem go away.
Now, according to several links, 39 States are under Dillon's Rule. Only 11 are Home Rule states. Local Government Authority
I agree with your comments here.
I am from New Jersey. Home Rule has turned NJ into perhaps the whiniest NIMBY state in the country. Everybody complains. Then guess what happens every November. The people that complain about the taxes they pay to stay in their homes are the ones voting to rubber stamp the next school budget.
Quick note. Many states have sort of a hybrid mix of Dillon's Rule and Home Rule. New York is like this. That state allows voters to decide on school matters such as binds, budgets and other issues. But the state controls most aspects of curriculum, teacher compensation/benefits and the state negotiates with the unions that represent the faculty and staff.. In NJ each district is autonomous. Each municipality is a school district. Or if the population of a given area is not very large, municipalities join to form a regional school district.
In other states, the districts are county wide. With each school in the county under the same calendar, the budgets are countywide. Some towns may have their own elementary schools, but even those are operated and funded in part by the County government. The state collects all property taxes and redistributes the money back to the county from which it came AFTER it takes a percentage and distributes that to the less financially able counties.
Lastly, in NJ and the other Home Rule states, school boards have actual taxing authority. In Dillon's Rule states, school boards can vote on budgets, but the taxing authority lies with the state government.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Get rid of all unions, cut overtime pay, social security bad....same old swamp.

You forgot bring back slavery.

You lefties have melted down to a pile of goo

 

[thereisnospoon]

About a third of Limbaugh's audience are flaming liberals or at least left leaning.
Limbaugh will put liberal callers to the head of the queue.

silly boy still thinks Limbaugh still has an audience.

20 million people per week. 5.1 million unique listeners each week 1.7 million per day....Tough times....
Rushlimbaugh.com Traffic and Demographic Statistics by Quantcast
Di you really expect I would not do the research and provide the beat down Joe link?
You've been posting your false claims here for how many years? Every time you've posted your bullshit on here and I see it, I will call you on it.
Next time you think about posting, consider the embarrassment you may endure if caught with hand in factual trap.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Class size has a LOT to do with it. In fact, earlier in this thread I quoted an article that listed the 5 main reasons parents chose private schools and smaller class size was at the top of the list. How can one teacher effectively teach a class of 60 fifth graders? You're arguing against exactly what makes private schools successful. We need more teachers.

The reason I argue against that is because I went to a private school. This was during the baby boom era, and we had 39 kids in my class. I'd match that class against any public school that had much smaller class sizes.

Smaller classes is a union thing. They are not looking out for the kids, they are looking out for themselves. Perhaps some parents bought into that as well, I don't know. Smaller classes may help with an out of control room of kids perhaps, but that's about it.

Have you ever taught a class with 39 kids; I have. In such an environment, kids that need any extra help don't get. There is not enough class time to cover the material and have any interaction with the kids. Most teachers in that environment, hardly even know their students. On parent teacher night, a parent wants to discuss the problem Johnny is having in math and you can't remember which Johnny is their son. Thankfully, I only had to spend two years teaching in the zoo. Frankly, I wish every parent had the opportunity to teach an overloaded class of 3rd graders.

In private schools, larger class sizes may well be tolerable since the school has the opportunity to select their students, no special ed kids, no juvenile delinquents, no kids that can't speak English, no kids that are 3 grade levels behind. Public schools have to take whatever walks in the door.

Then maybe get rid of all teachers and hire nuns. They seemed to have no problem with it.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

60K a year isn't bad for a part-time job. The last time I had all summer off was when I was a kid in school.

It depends on where she lives and they aren't really "off" all summer. Teachers are required to do "continuing education" courses - at least in my state.

Yes, my former tenant did the same thing. Out of his three months off, he went to class part-time for one month in the summer, and it was only every couple of years it was required.

They also don't get paid for those 3 months.

Yes they do. It's worked that way so they can't file for unemployment. Their salary is divided out through the year. During the summer, you can make extra money (which some teachers do) working temporary jobs or teaching summer school.

Ok - I didn't realize that, but ya that makes sense. We have some faculty that are 9-month, but choose to spread it out over 12 months. Nothing to do with unemployment, but for budgeting. But they don't actually get paid for those months - it's just the 9 month salary.

Salary is salary no matter how it's paid. Yes, you can collect unemployment if you're not working nor getting paid. That's why it's spread out throughout the year. One my tenants was a teacher and he lived here for seven years.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Big trucks cause most of the damage. Why should we pay so they have good roads?

I just got done explaining that. You're not very bright.........are you?

 

[JoeB131]

So who do you want to do the investigation, Ronald McDonald?

An independent body with no connection to the police.

Nope, Cleveland called Independence for a reference and got a good one.

Unlikely... but even if they did, they should have asked for a complete copy of his personnel file...

If you get a white guy with no criminal record that is totally honest and remorseful for his crime, he's going to get a much lighter sentence than a black guy who was rolling his eyes during the trial, shaking his head back and forth, dressed like he was going to a rap concert, and has a criminal record a mile long.

But none of those things should be factors. If the black and white guy did the SAME crime, they should get the same prison sentence. Not "The White Guy dressed nicely, he must be totally innocent."

You see, you are going through a lot of trouble to deny what even you know is true.. The "Justice" system has no "Justice" if you are black.

 

[JoeB131]

When Obama was first elected, one of the first things he the unions did was to target School Vouchers. Shit, Obama was correct......Elections do have consequences.

Yep, he certainly got rid of them in Washington anyhow.

Well, that and the fact they didn't work and didn't improve education in the district.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Get rid of all unions, cut overtime pay, social security bad....same old swamp.

You forgot bring back slavery.

When did it go away? Just look at the democrat party


.

 

[JoeB131]

Our Leftist pals are quick to blame cops, white folks, Republicans, whatever, but I have yet to see any of the tunnel-vision crowd try to explain this phenomenon"

In Brownsville, Brooklyn, the per capita shooting rate is 81 times higher than in nearby Bay Ridge, Brooklyn—the first neighborhood predominantly black, the second neighborhood predominantly white and Asian. As a result, police presence and use of proactive tactics are much higher in Brownsville than in Bay Ridge.

Keep scrubbing, honey, it don't come off.

Of course, when the police act like occupying armies, you are going to have more shootings. (That is, if you have an insane policy of letting average citizens own guns to start with, which no other country does.)

 

[JoeB131]

Years ago a friend of mine and I were driving in a suburb that didn't really care for our kind: young, long hair, older model vehicle, supped up a bit. We got pulled over and my friend started to give the cop lip about how he was not going over the speed limit which he clearly was. When the cop went back to write him a ticket, I told the asshole to never argue with a cop. It's not going to change anything. If you do anything, apologize to the officer and just tell him the truth which is we were talking and he was not paying attention.

About a year later we went down to the flats here in Cleveland and had a little too much to drink. My friend crashed a red light because it was late and there was nobody on the road, and we got pulled over.

It seemed that my friend remembered what I told him last time. It was "yes sir" "No sir" "I'm very sorry sir" and so on. The cop let us go with a warning.

A little bit of respect (which is all officers would like) goes a long way. Treat them good, and in most cases, they will treat you the same way.

Oh, I see, we should acquiesce to cops and hope they are in a good mood so they won't shoot us?

I'm sorry, is this still fucking America?

 

[JoeB131]

The reason I argue against that is because I went to a private school. This was during the baby boom era, and we had 39 kids in my class. I'd match that class against any public school that had much smaller class sizes.

Smaller classes is a union thing. They are not looking out for the kids, they are looking out for themselves. Perhaps some parents bought into that as well, I don't know. Smaller classes may help with an out of control room of kids perhaps, but that's about it.

And how many of those 39 kids had learning disabilities? I went to a similar private school in the same era, and you know what, all those retarded kids where picked up by a public school bus and driven off to a public school where they were separated from the rest.

How many of those kids had disciplinary problems? Probably none. Of course, they let the nuns beat them. That was a great system. As in totally fucked up.

 

[JoeB131]

So she should (and did) pay for other people's kids to go to public school and then pay for private school for her kids? Where is the equity in that?

I say that if my sister paid for her kids education, all parents should pay for their kids education as well. That's fair.

Or we could just eliminate private schools and put the kids of the rich right next to the kids of the poor. I'll bet you those leaky roofs and old textbooks get fixed pretty quickly after that.

 

[initforme]

Yes...privileged private schools should be welcoming disruptive highly emotionally disabled kids with open arms. No questions asked.

 

[LeftofLeft]

When Obama was first elected, one of the first things he the unions did was to target School Vouchers. Shit, Obama was correct......Elections do have consequences.

Yep, he certainly got rid of them in Washington anyhow.

Well, that and the fact they didn't work and didn't improve education in the district.

I grew up in the district and now live in a neighboring state. Show US how vouchers did not improve education in the district yet the highest cost per pupil in the US is somehow yielding better results??

The stark reality is that the NEA Union does not like vouchers because it means less money for their coffers and cronies. I'll bet you'll site some NEA or NEA proxy study saying vouchers don't work?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Our Leftist pals are quick to blame cops, white folks, Republicans, whatever, but I have yet to see any of the tunnel-vision crowd try to explain this phenomenon"

In Brownsville, Brooklyn, the per capita shooting rate is 81 times higher than in nearby Bay Ridge, Brooklyn—the first neighborhood predominantly black, the second neighborhood predominantly white and Asian. As a result, police presence and use of proactive tactics are much higher in Brownsville than in Bay Ridge.

Keep scrubbing, honey, it don't come off.

Of course, when the police act like occupying armies, you are going to have more shootings. (That is, if you have an insane policy of letting average citizens own guns to start with, which no other country does.)

Why would you link to the post if you were going to ignore it?

Wanna try again, so you don't appear as much a fool?

In Brownsville, Brooklyn, the per capita shooting rate is 81 times higher than in nearby Bay Ridge, Brooklyn—the first neighborhood predominantly black, the second neighborhood predominantly white and Asian. As a result, police presence and use of proactive tactics are much higher in Brownsville than in Bay Ridge.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Get rid of all unions, cut overtime pay, social security bad....same old swamp.

You forgot bring back slavery.

When did it go away? Just look at the democrat party


.

I don't see slavery...