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If the USA is the BEST government EVAH, then government must really suck.I agree our gvt is not perfect, but there is no form of govt running any other nation, that I would rather have, or is better than our system, and THAT was my point nightfox!Uh-huh, that's like saying colon cancer is the best form of cancer in the worldOur constitutional Republic form of gov't is the best govt in the world.....
Given current human nature government is a necessary evil but even the best government is still EVIL, it's just less evil than all its competitors.
If/when human nature evolves to the point where government is no longer necessary then the very best thing that human beings can EVER do for themselves is to abolish government.
"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer." -- Thomas Paine
Anarchy is NOT the solution....that is Ma-hem and Madness....If the USA is the BEST government EVAH, then government must really suck.I agree our gvt is not perfect, but there is no form of govt running any other nation, that I would rather have, or is better than our system, and THAT was my point nightfox!Uh-huh, that's like saying colon cancer is the best form of cancer in the worldOur constitutional Republic form of gov't is the best govt in the world.....
Given current human nature government is a necessary evil but even the best government is still EVIL, it's just less evil than all its competitors.
If/when human nature evolves to the point where government is no longer necessary then the very best thing that human beings can EVER do for themselves is to abolish government.
"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer." -- Thomas Paine
After 10,000 years of practice, one would think government would improve for the vast majority of people, rather than a select minority. It is far past the time to eliminate government, as it is practiced the world over.
What I am doing is separating the component parts of an economic system. I am detaching the system of production from the system of distribution. Obviously if humans are to produce the means of our existence we need a way to distribute those means. I know of no other way for a free people to acquire their needs than through a market. The only question that remains is how the market should operate, what laws (or lack of) should govern it. The rules of its operation are greatly influenced by but not dependent on the social arrangement of production. Even a socialized system of production can make use of a market for distributing the means of our existence.The basis of capitalism is to produce commodities for the sole purpose of accumulating capital. The system of exchange is merely a preference in achieving the goal.That is a straw man argument. I didn't say anything about how we exchange commodities. I specifically referred to how we produce commodities. And it does naturally create a ruling class.The capitalist system of production is incompatible with the type of government you long for. It places one group of people over another group naturally. If we are to evolve into a society such that you prefer it would necessitate the evolution of the social relations of production.
Voluntary exchange doesn't "put one group of people over another group of people naturally", what does that is the fact that human beings are not all born with the same abilities. Economics provides NO solution to that problem because at the end of the day the current incarnation of human nature dictates the limitation of our choices for solving the most important question that economics attempts to address, namely "infinite human wants, finite resources".
So no, "social relations of production" won't solve anything, it'll just rearrange which small group of people hold the power. Capitalism is the best we have RIGHT NOW and it has the track record to prove it but even the best suffers from the limitations inherent in our psychology and the inequality of individual ability.
The basis of capitalism is voluntary exchange (aka market economy), unfortunately in practice it doesn't work out that way, since the chattering tax farming, rent seeker classes (politicians, priests, et al) are always there to warp the market so they can get their cut without having to incur the risk and the labor. Much like your "social relations of production" a noble idea in theory, however whenever its been tried the result has been authoritarian nightmare accompanied by enormous economic inefficiency that have been far worse than anything capitalism has spawned.
If I had a choice between being ruled by corporations or being ruled by "social relations of production" theorists, I know which one I'd chose, at least with corporations they have some incentive not to kill off or systematically impoverish vast numbers of their customers and laborers.
Just so I'm clear on what you're trying to communicate, am I correct that your contention is that the foundation of capitalism isn't a market economy? In other words can capitalism exist without a market?
I realize that there are many variations on capitalism in practice but on the surface it would appear that you're attempting to narrow the definition to a point where Smith, Ricardo and company would be completely dumb founded as to what it is you're talking about.
For your edification; the sole purpose of any economic system is to provide a framework for the distribution of finite resources (in an efficient manner) to meet infinite human wants, any economic system that made its sole purpose the accumulation of ANYTHING would be ludicrous.
Stop with the government school cliches and educate yourself on what anarchy really is.Anarchy is NOT the solution....that is Ma-hem and Madness....If the USA is the BEST government EVAH, then government must really suck.I agree our gvt is not perfect, but there is no form of govt running any other nation, that I would rather have, or is better than our system, and THAT was my point nightfox!Uh-huh, that's like saying colon cancer is the best form of cancer in the worldOur constitutional Republic form of gov't is the best govt in the world.....
Given current human nature government is a necessary evil but even the best government is still EVIL, it's just less evil than all its competitors.
If/when human nature evolves to the point where government is no longer necessary then the very best thing that human beings can EVER do for themselves is to abolish government.
"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer." -- Thomas Paine
After 10,000 years of practice, one would think government would improve for the vast majority of people, rather than a select minority. It is far past the time to eliminate government, as it is practiced the world over.
getting the elite's money out of politics is our only hope....
The foundation of the economy is the system of production. Without it there is nothing to distribute. The foundation of the capitalist economic system (capitalism) is the capitalist system of production, the production of commodities where capital exists for the sole purpose of acquiring more capital. To be clear.Just so I'm clear on what you're trying to communicate, am I correct that your contention is that the foundation of capitalism isn't a market economy?
why don't YOU educate me on what you think it is?Stop with the government school cliches and educate yourself on what anarchy really is.Anarchy is NOT the solution....that is Ma-hem and Madness....If the USA is the BEST government EVAH, then government must really suck.I agree our gvt is not perfect, but there is no form of govt running any other nation, that I would rather have, or is better than our system, and THAT was my point nightfox!Uh-huh, that's like saying colon cancer is the best form of cancer in the worldOur constitutional Republic form of gov't is the best govt in the world.....
Given current human nature government is a necessary evil but even the best government is still EVIL, it's just less evil than all its competitors.
If/when human nature evolves to the point where government is no longer necessary then the very best thing that human beings can EVER do for themselves is to abolish government.
"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer." -- Thomas Paine
After 10,000 years of practice, one would think government would improve for the vast majority of people, rather than a select minority. It is far past the time to eliminate government, as it is practiced the world over.
getting the elite's money out of politics is our only hope....
The foundation of the economy is the system of production. Without it there is nothing to distribute.Just so I'm clear on what you're trying to communicate, am I correct that your contention is that the foundation of capitalism isn't a market economy?
Anarchy is NOT the solution....that is Ma-hem and Madness....If the USA is the BEST government EVAH, then government must really suck.I agree our gvt is not perfect, but there is no form of govt running any other nation, that I would rather have, or is better than our system, and THAT was my point nightfox!Uh-huh, that's like saying colon cancer is the best form of cancer in the worldOur constitutional Republic form of gov't is the best govt in the world.....
Given current human nature government is a necessary evil but even the best government is still EVIL, it's just less evil than all its competitors.
If/when human nature evolves to the point where government is no longer necessary then the very best thing that human beings can EVER do for themselves is to abolish government.
"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer." -- Thomas Paine
After 10,000 years of practice, one would think government would improve for the vast majority of people, rather than a select minority. It is far past the time to eliminate government, as it is practiced the world over.
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Okay love, but you must promise to open your mind to the concept of Anarchy. You have been trained to believe it is a four letter word....by the State...the very state who has a vested interest in preventing anarchy from taking hold.why don't YOU educate me on what you think it is?Stop with the government school cliches and educate yourself on what anarchy really is.Anarchy is NOT the solution....that is Ma-hem and Madness....If the USA is the BEST government EVAH, then government must really suck.I agree our gvt is not perfect, but there is no form of govt running any other nation, that I would rather have, or is better than our system, and THAT was my point nightfox!Uh-huh, that's like saying colon cancer is the best form of cancer in the world
Given current human nature government is a necessary evil but even the best government is still EVIL, it's just less evil than all its competitors.
If/when human nature evolves to the point where government is no longer necessary then the very best thing that human beings can EVER do for themselves is to abolish government.
"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer." -- Thomas Paine
After 10,000 years of practice, one would think government would improve for the vast majority of people, rather than a select minority. It is far past the time to eliminate government, as it is practiced the world over.
getting the elite's money out of politics is our only hope....
I believe William Binney over you every day of the week, but then you are a dupe for the State.NSA has stated that Russia influenced the 2016 election (along with CIA, FBI, DNI). However, it's up to Congress and Mueller to prove collusion with the Trump campaign. They're working on it...
My point wasn't to have a serious debate about the merits of various economic systems. My point was to explain why I believe we can not have the type of society you prefer using our current system of production. The market is irrelevant to that point as I'm sure you understand since you have already explained how the market is manipulated by the forces of production and capital.The foundation of the economy is the system of production. Without it there is nothing to distribute.Just so I'm clear on what you're trying to communicate, am I correct that your contention is that the foundation of capitalism isn't a market economy?
...and without a market there is no way to distribute it, market comes first, capital formation comes second, demand proceeds supply.
You're pulling out parts of capitalism that are convenient to whatever point you're trying to make, discarding everything else and in the process making ludicrous pronouncements like the "sole purpose of capitalism is the accumulation of capital ".
If you want to have a serious discussion about the merits of various economic systems fine but IMHO you can't do it in the manner you're currently pursuing since all your doing is cherry picking, which is fine if you want to convince yourself that what you already believe is correct but isn't going to provoke any thought or serious consideration with anybody but simpletons.
e basis of capitalism is voluntary exchange (aka market economy), unfortunately in practice it doesn't work out that way, since the chattering tax farming, rent seeker classes (politicians, priests, et al) are always there to warp the market so they can get their cut without having to incur the risk and the labor.
That's cool but the fact of the matter is, you don't understand the "type of society that I prefer" if you think that placing the means of production outside of the hands of private ownership is a viable means to achieving it since my problem isn't with capitalism it's with government interference in the marketplace, the existing monetary system and cronyism.My point wasn't to have a serious debate about the merits of various economic systems. My point was to explain why I believe we can not have the type of society you prefer using our current system of production.The foundation of the economy is the system of production. Without it there is nothing to distribute.Just so I'm clear on what you're trying to communicate, am I correct that your contention is that the foundation of capitalism isn't a market economy?
...and without a market there is no way to distribute it, market comes first, capital formation comes second, demand proceeds supply.
You're pulling out parts of capitalism that are convenient to whatever point you're trying to make, discarding everything else and in the process making ludicrous pronouncements like the "sole purpose of capitalism is the accumulation of capital ".
If you want to have a serious discussion about the merits of various economic systems fine but IMHO you can't do it in the manner you're currently pursuing since all your doing is cherry picking, which is fine if you want to convince yourself that what you already believe is correct but isn't going to provoke any thought or serious consideration with anybody but simpletons.
