Russiagate: Why has the NSA refused to disclose?

[Tehon]

Agreed....yet Americans like to think their government is the best form of government in the world. LMFAO.

What form of government do you believe to be best?

There isn't one any sane person would consider even good. So, no government is best.

The absence of government isn't a form of government. It's anarchy.

Works for me and it far better than the shit we have now.

What evidence supports your belief?

 

[Tehon]

Agreed....yet Americans like to think their government is the best form of government in the world. LMFAO.

What form of government do you believe to be best?

A non-existent one...

Unfortunately the current state of human nature makes that all but impossible at scale, so as an alternative we're left with one that is as decentralized and limited as possible to the point where It has no authority beyond protecting the life, liberty and property of the citizenry. Of course history suggests that even if government starts out that way, it NEVER stays that way and inevitably becomes a exploiter of the citizenry instead of its servant.

So we have two hopes for the future to eliminate the necessity of placing one group of people in power over another group of people; Human evolution or AI.

The capitalist system of production is incompatible with the type of government you long for. It places one group of people over another group naturally. If we are to evolve into a society such that you prefer it would necessitate the evolution of the social relations of production.

I do not disagree. The problem with your belief that communism is the answer, is it devolves into dictatorship.

Capitalism is not a form of government. It is a free exchange of goods between free people...problem is always when government steps in, as it has done in the USA, it fucks it all up and causes concentration of wealth and political power to a small elite group. Just as communism does.

Capitalism doesn't describe a form of exchange, it describes a form of production and is the basis for your elite groups formation.

 

[gipper]

Agreed....yet Americans like to think their government is the best form of government in the world. LMFAO.

What form of government do you believe to be best?

There isn't one any sane person would consider even good. So, no government is best.

The absence of government isn't a form of government. It's anarchy.

Works for me and it far better than the shit we have now.

What evidence supports your belief?

10,000 years of history.

 

[gipper]

Agreed....yet Americans like to think their government is the best form of government in the world. LMFAO.

What form of government do you believe to be best?

A non-existent one...

Unfortunately the current state of human nature makes that all but impossible at scale, so as an alternative we're left with one that is as decentralized and limited as possible to the point where It has no authority beyond protecting the life, liberty and property of the citizenry. Of course history suggests that even if government starts out that way, it NEVER stays that way and inevitably becomes a exploiter of the citizenry instead of its servant.

So we have two hopes for the future to eliminate the necessity of placing one group of people in power over another group of people; Human evolution or AI.

The capitalist system of production is incompatible with the type of government you long for. It places one group of people over another group naturally. If we are to evolve into a society such that you prefer it would necessitate the evolution of the social relations of production.

I do not disagree. The problem with your belief that communism is the answer, is it devolves into dictatorship.

Capitalism is not a form of government. It is a free exchange of goods between free people...problem is always when government steps in, as it has done in the USA, it fucks it all up and causes concentration of wealth and political power to a small elite group. Just as communism does.

Capitalism doesn't describe a form of exchange, it describes a form of production and is the basis for your elite groups formation.

I don't believe you are right. Did you get that definition from the Communist Manifesto?

 

[gipper]

Agreed....yet Americans like to think their government is the best form of government in the world. LMFAO.

What form of government do you believe to be best?

A non-existent one...

Unfortunately the current state of human nature makes that all but impossible at scale, so as an alternative we're left with one that is as decentralized and limited as possible to the point where It has no authority beyond protecting the life, liberty and property of the citizenry. Of course history suggests that even if government starts out that way, it NEVER stays that way and inevitably becomes a exploiter of the citizenry instead of its servant.

So we have two hopes for the future to eliminate the necessity of placing one group of people in power over another group of people; Human evolution or AI.

The capitalist system of production is incompatible with the type of government you long for. It places one group of people over another group naturally. If we are to evolve into a society such that you prefer it would necessitate the evolution of the social relations of production.

HI do not disagree. The problem with your belief that communism is the answer, is it devolves into dictatorship.

Capitalism is not a form of government. It is a free exchange of goods between free people...problem is always when government steps in, as it has done in the USA, it fucks it all up and causes concentration of wealth and political power to a small elite group. Just as communism does.

Capitalism doesn't describe a form of exchange, it describes a form of production and is the basis for your elite groups formation.

How about this definition of capitalism?

Capitalism is moral and practical as it leaves the individual free to think rationally and act productively to sustain ones life and experience happiness on earth.

 

[NightFox]

Agreed....yet Americans like to think their government is the best form of government in the world. LMFAO.

What form of government do you believe to be best?

A non-existent one...

Unfortunately the current state of human nature makes that all but impossible at scale, so as an alternative we're left with one that is as decentralized and limited as possible to the point where It has no authority beyond protecting the life, liberty and property of the citizenry. Of course history suggests that even if government starts out that way, it NEVER stays that way and inevitably becomes a exploiter of the citizenry instead of its servant.

So we have two hopes for the future to eliminate the necessity of placing one group of people in power over another group of people; Human evolution or AI.

The capitalist system of production is incompatible with the type of government you long for. It places one group of people over another group naturally. If we are to evolve into a society such that you prefer it would necessitate the evolution of the social relations of production.

Voluntary exchange doesn't "put one group of people over another group of people naturally", what does that is the fact that human beings are not all born with the same abilities. Economics provides NO solution to that problem because at the end of the day the current incarnation of human nature dictates the limitation of our choices for solving the most important question that economics attempts to address, namely "infinite human wants, finite resources".

So no, "social relations of production" won't solve anything, it'll just rearrange which small group of people hold the power. Capitalism is the best we have RIGHT NOW and it has the track record to prove it but even the best suffers from the limitations inherent in our psychology and the inequality of individual ability.

That is a straw man argument. I didn't say anything about how we exchange commodities. I specifically referred to how we produce commodities. And it does naturally create a ruling class.

The basis of capitalism is voluntary exchange (aka market economy), unfortunately in practice it doesn't work out that way, since the chattering tax farming, rent seeker classes (politicians, priests, et al) are always there to warp the market so they can get their cut without having to incur the risk and the labor. Much like your "social relations of production" a noble idea in theory, however whenever its been tried the result has been authoritarian nightmare accompanied by enormous economic inefficiency that have been far worse than anything capitalism has spawned.

If I had a choice between being ruled by corporations or being ruled by "social relations of production" theorists, I know which one I'd chose, at least with corporations they have some incentive not to kill off or systematically impoverish vast numbers of their customers and laborers.

 

[Tehon]

What form of government do you believe to be best?

A non-existent one...

Unfortunately the current state of human nature makes that all but impossible at scale, so as an alternative we're left with one that is as decentralized and limited as possible to the point where It has no authority beyond protecting the life, liberty and property of the citizenry. Of course history suggests that even if government starts out that way, it NEVER stays that way and inevitably becomes a exploiter of the citizenry instead of its servant.

So we have two hopes for the future to eliminate the necessity of placing one group of people in power over another group of people; Human evolution or AI.

The capitalist system of production is incompatible with the type of government you long for. It places one group of people over another group naturally. If we are to evolve into a society such that you prefer it would necessitate the evolution of the social relations of production.

I do not disagree. The problem with your belief that communism is the answer, is it devolves into dictatorship.

Capitalism is not a form of government. It is a free exchange of goods between free people...problem is always when government steps in, as it has done in the USA, it fucks it all up and causes concentration of wealth and political power to a small elite group. Just as communism does.

Capitalism doesn't describe a form of exchange, it describes a form of production and is the basis for your elite groups formation.

I don't believe you are right. Did you get that definition from the Communist Manifesto?

But why don't you believe I'm right? Because Marx? You can do better than that.

Don't you understand that the production of commodities is not inherently linked to the distributive system of commodities?

 

[Tehon]

How about this definition of capitalism?

Capitalism is moral and practical as it leaves the individual free to think rationally and act productively to sustain ones life and experience happiness on earth.

It is not a definition of capitalism.

 

[NightFox]

What form of government do you believe to be best?

A non-existent one...

Unfortunately the current state of human nature makes that all but impossible at scale, so as an alternative we're left with one that is as decentralized and limited as possible to the point where It has no authority beyond protecting the life, liberty and property of the citizenry. Of course history suggests that even if government starts out that way, it NEVER stays that way and inevitably becomes a exploiter of the citizenry instead of its servant.

So we have two hopes for the future to eliminate the necessity of placing one group of people in power over another group of people; Human evolution or AI.

The capitalist system of production is incompatible with the type of government you long for. It places one group of people over another group naturally. If we are to evolve into a society such that you prefer it would necessitate the evolution of the social relations of production.

HI do not disagree. The problem with your belief that communism is the answer, is it devolves into dictatorship.

Capitalism is not a form of government. It is a free exchange of goods between free people...problem is always when government steps in, as it has done in the USA, it fucks it all up and causes concentration of wealth and political power to a small elite group. Just as communism does.

Capitalism doesn't describe a form of exchange, it describes a form of production and is the basis for your elite groups formation.

How about this definition of capitalism?

Capitalism is moral and practical as it leaves the individual free to think rationally and act productively to sustain ones life and experience happiness on earth.

I don't know about that, I don't think it's a moral component that has made capitalism so successful since there's nothing inherently "immoral" about alternatives like communism.

IMHO capitalism works because it more accurately accounts for human nature and the inequality of ability, Marx (for example) believed in the inherent goodness of individuals which is why he believed that communism could be workable in practice, he also admitted that there would always be "corruption at the top" (at the lower stages), which IMHO is pretty much a self defeating argument and history has shown he was absolutely correct. All the experiments with his ideas have ended in failure because "the top" abused the masses and all that was accomplished was changing the name plates on the doors of the people at "the top" (along with A LOT of human misery and wasted resources). .

Communism might work under current conditions on a very small scale, it just won't work at any significant scale because it's too vulnerable to corruption by small groups of individuals exploiting the rest of society at lower stage and thus the ultimate objective never materializes. With capitalism at least the rest of society has some economic power in the marketplace and (theoretical) access to the means of production.

 

[Tehon]

What form of government do you believe to be best?

A non-existent one...

Unfortunately the current state of human nature makes that all but impossible at scale, so as an alternative we're left with one that is as decentralized and limited as possible to the point where It has no authority beyond protecting the life, liberty and property of the citizenry. Of course history suggests that even if government starts out that way, it NEVER stays that way and inevitably becomes a exploiter of the citizenry instead of its servant.

So we have two hopes for the future to eliminate the necessity of placing one group of people in power over another group of people; Human evolution or AI.

The capitalist system of production is incompatible with the type of government you long for. It places one group of people over another group naturally. If we are to evolve into a society such that you prefer it would necessitate the evolution of the social relations of production.

Voluntary exchange doesn't "put one group of people over another group of people naturally", what does that is the fact that human beings are not all born with the same abilities. Economics provides NO solution to that problem because at the end of the day the current incarnation of human nature dictates the limitation of our choices for solving the most important question that economics attempts to address, namely "infinite human wants, finite resources".

So no, "social relations of production" won't solve anything, it'll just rearrange which small group of people hold the power. Capitalism is the best we have RIGHT NOW and it has the track record to prove it but even the best suffers from the limitations inherent in our psychology and the inequality of individual ability.

That is a straw man argument. I didn't say anything about how we exchange commodities. I specifically referred to how we produce commodities. And it does naturally create a ruling class.

The basis of capitalism is voluntary exchange (aka market economy), unfortunately in practice it doesn't work out that way, since the chattering tax farming, rent seeker classes (politicians, priests, et al) are always there to warp the market so they can get their cut without having to incur the risk and the labor. Much like your "social relations of production" a noble idea in theory, however whenever its been tried the result has been authoritarian nightmare accompanied by enormous economic inefficiency that have been far worse than anything capitalism has spawned.

If I had a choice between being ruled by corporations or being ruled by "social relations of production" theorists, I know which one I'd chose, at least with corporations they have some incentive not to kill off or systematically impoverish vast numbers of their customers and laborers.

The basis of capitalism is to produce commodities for the sole purpose of accumulating capital. The system of exchange is merely a preference in achieving the goal.

 

[gipper]

A non-existent one...

Unfortunately the current state of human nature makes that all but impossible at scale, so as an alternative we're left with one that is as decentralized and limited as possible to the point where It has no authority beyond protecting the life, liberty and property of the citizenry. Of course history suggests that even if government starts out that way, it NEVER stays that way and inevitably becomes a exploiter of the citizenry instead of its servant.

So we have two hopes for the future to eliminate the necessity of placing one group of people in power over another group of people; Human evolution or AI.

The capitalist system of production is incompatible with the type of government you long for. It places one group of people over another group naturally. If we are to evolve into a society such that you prefer it would necessitate the evolution of the social relations of production.

Voluntary exchange doesn't "put one group of people over another group of people naturally", what does that is the fact that human beings are not all born with the same abilities. Economics provides NO solution to that problem because at the end of the day the current incarnation of human nature dictates the limitation of our choices for solving the most important question that economics attempts to address, namely "infinite human wants, finite resources".

So no, "social relations of production" won't solve anything, it'll just rearrange which small group of people hold the power. Capitalism is the best we have RIGHT NOW and it has the track record to prove it but even the best suffers from the limitations inherent in our psychology and the inequality of individual ability.

That is a straw man argument. I didn't say anything about how we exchange commodities. I specifically referred to how we produce commodities. And it does naturally create a ruling class.

The basis of capitalism is voluntary exchange (aka market economy), unfortunately in practice it doesn't work out that way, since the chattering tax farming, rent seeker classes (politicians, priests, et al) are always there to warp the market so they can get their cut without having to incur the risk and the labor. Much like your "social relations of production" a noble idea in theory, however whenever its been tried the result has been authoritarian nightmare accompanied by enormous economic inefficiency that have been far worse than anything capitalism has spawned.

If I had a choice between being ruled by corporations or being ruled by "social relations of production" theorists, I know which one I'd chose, at least with corporations they have some incentive not to kill off or systematically impoverish vast numbers of their customers and laborers.

The basis of capitalism is to produce commodities for the sole purpose of accumulating capital. The system of exchange is merely a preference in achieving the goal.

No...it is about self interest, which all humans have. Communism ignores this natural tendency, which is in part why it can't work.

 

[Care4all]

Ummm... NSA the most secretive agency in the Federal Intelligence Apparatus (and NOT a law enforcement agency) doesn't exactly have a history of transparency and making "what it knows" public.

You got a better shot at finding out what Jimmy Hoffa knows about this "Russian Collusion" imbroglio than you have at finding out what the NSA knows about it.

Agreed....yet Americans like to think their government is the best form of government in the world. LMFAO.

The NSA needs to be dissolved, but now I am dreaming.

Paul Craig Roberts' point is the NSA knows but is refusing to tell the American people who pay it's bills, to protect and promote the military industry complex.

Our constitutional Republic form of gov't is the best govt in the world.....

What other nations gov't would you prefer over ours?


WHY DID TRUMP LIE about all of the Trump team connections and meetings with Russian operatives? Why did 5 different Trump Team members repeatedly deny and lie about their meetings with Russian operatives?

WHY?

If it were just normal meetings and not nefarious?

 

[gipper]

Ummm... NSA the most secretive agency in the Federal Intelligence Apparatus (and NOT a law enforcement agency) doesn't exactly have a history of transparency and making "what it knows" public.

You got a better shot at finding out what Jimmy Hoffa knows about this "Russian Collusion" imbroglio than you have at finding out what the NSA knows about it.

Agreed....yet Americans like to think their government is the best form of government in the world. LMFAO.

The NSA needs to be dissolved, but now I am dreaming.

Paul Craig Roberts' point is the NSA knows but is refusing to tell the American people who pay it's bills, to protect and promote the military industry complex.

Our constitutional Republic form of gov't is the best govt in the world.....

What other nations gov't would you prefer over ours?


WHY DID TRUMP LIE about all of the Trump team connections and meetings with Russian operatives? Why did 5 different Trump Team members repeatedly deny and lie about their meetings with Russian operatives?

WHY?

If it were just normal meetings and not nefarious?

Thanks for the laugh.

 

[NightFox]

A non-existent one...

Unfortunately the current state of human nature makes that all but impossible at scale, so as an alternative we're left with one that is as decentralized and limited as possible to the point where It has no authority beyond protecting the life, liberty and property of the citizenry. Of course history suggests that even if government starts out that way, it NEVER stays that way and inevitably becomes a exploiter of the citizenry instead of its servant.

So we have two hopes for the future to eliminate the necessity of placing one group of people in power over another group of people; Human evolution or AI.

The capitalist system of production is incompatible with the type of government you long for. It places one group of people over another group naturally. If we are to evolve into a society such that you prefer it would necessitate the evolution of the social relations of production.

Voluntary exchange doesn't "put one group of people over another group of people naturally", what does that is the fact that human beings are not all born with the same abilities. Economics provides NO solution to that problem because at the end of the day the current incarnation of human nature dictates the limitation of our choices for solving the most important question that economics attempts to address, namely "infinite human wants, finite resources".

So no, "social relations of production" won't solve anything, it'll just rearrange which small group of people hold the power. Capitalism is the best we have RIGHT NOW and it has the track record to prove it but even the best suffers from the limitations inherent in our psychology and the inequality of individual ability.

That is a straw man argument. I didn't say anything about how we exchange commodities. I specifically referred to how we produce commodities. And it does naturally create a ruling class.

The basis of capitalism is voluntary exchange (aka market economy), unfortunately in practice it doesn't work out that way, since the chattering tax farming, rent seeker classes (politicians, priests, et al) are always there to warp the market so they can get their cut without having to incur the risk and the labor. Much like your "social relations of production" a noble idea in theory, however whenever its been tried the result has been authoritarian nightmare accompanied by enormous economic inefficiency that have been far worse than anything capitalism has spawned.

If I had a choice between being ruled by corporations or being ruled by "social relations of production" theorists, I know which one I'd chose, at least with corporations they have some incentive not to kill off or systematically impoverish vast numbers of their customers and laborers.

The basis of capitalism is to produce commodities for the sole purpose of accumulating capital. The system of exchange is merely a preference in achieving the goal.

Just so I'm clear on what you're trying to communicate, am I correct that your contention is that the foundation of capitalism isn't a market economy? In other words can capitalism exist without a market?

I realize that there are many variations on capitalism in practice but on the surface it would appear that you're attempting to narrow the definition to a point where Smith, Ricardo and company would be completely dumb founded as to what it is you're talking about.

For your edification; the sole purpose of any economic system is to provide a framework for the distribution of finite resources (in an efficient manner) to meet infinite human wants, any economic system that made its sole purpose the accumulation of ANYTHING would be ludicrous.

 

[Care4all]

Whatever the NSA may have, ON THEIR evesdropping devices they can't legally disclose it to others...

 

[Care4all]

Ummm... NSA the most secretive agency in the Federal Intelligence Apparatus (and NOT a law enforcement agency) doesn't exactly have a history of transparency and making "what it knows" public.

You got a better shot at finding out what Jimmy Hoffa knows about this "Russian Collusion" imbroglio than you have at finding out what the NSA knows about it.

Agreed....yet Americans like to think their government is the best form of government in the world. LMFAO.

The NSA needs to be dissolved, but now I am dreaming.

Paul Craig Roberts' point is the NSA knows but is refusing to tell the American people who pay it's bills, to protect and promote the military industry complex.

Our constitutional Republic form of gov't is the best govt in the world.....

What other nations gov't would you prefer over ours?


WHY DID TRUMP LIE about all of the Trump team connections and meetings with Russian operatives? Why did 5 different Trump Team members repeatedly deny and lie about their meetings with Russian operatives?

WHY?

If it were just normal meetings and not nefarious?

Thanks for the laugh.

No answers to the valid questions, eh? Are they too hard?

 

[NightFox]

Our constitutional Republic form of gov't is the best govt in the world.....

Uh-huh, that's like saying colon cancer is the best form of cancer in the world

Given current human nature government is a necessary evil but even the best government is still EVIL, it's just less evil than all its competitors.

If/when human nature evolves to the point where government is no longer necessary then the very best thing that human beings can EVER do for themselves is to abolish government.

"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer." -- Thomas Paine

 

[NightFox]

Ummm... NSA the most secretive agency in the Federal Intelligence Apparatus (and NOT a law enforcement agency) doesn't exactly have a history of transparency and making "what it knows" public.

You got a better shot at finding out what Jimmy Hoffa knows about this "Russian Collusion" imbroglio than you have at finding out what the NSA knows about it.

Agreed....yet Americans like to think their government is the best form of government in the world. LMFAO.

The NSA needs to be dissolved, but now I am dreaming.

Paul Craig Roberts' point is the NSA knows but is refusing to tell the American people who pay it's bills, to protect and promote the military industry complex.

Our constitutional Republic form of gov't is the best govt in the world.....

What other nations gov't would you prefer over ours?



WHY DID TRUMP LIE about all of the Trump team connections and meetings with Russian operatives? Why did 5 different Trump Team members repeatedly deny and lie about their meetings with Russian operatives?

WHY?

If it were just normal meetings and not nefarious?

Thanks for the laugh.

No answers to the valid questions, eh? Are they too hard?

I'm going to take a wild guess and say he's laughing at you because you contradicted yourself.

"We have the best government in the world" but now in the same post......

"I'm going to bitch about duplicity of the individuals at the top rungs of our government"

If it's so damn good how did these deceitful pricks get to be the ones in power?

 

[gipper]

Ummm... NSA the most secretive agency in the Federal Intelligence Apparatus (and NOT a law enforcement agency) doesn't exactly have a history of transparency and making "what it knows" public.

You got a better shot at finding out what Jimmy Hoffa knows about this "Russian Collusion" imbroglio than you have at finding out what the NSA knows about it.

Agreed....yet Americans like to think their government is the best form of government in the world. LMFAO.

The NSA needs to be dissolved, but now I am dreaming.

Paul Craig Roberts' point is the NSA knows but is refusing to tell the American people who pay it's bills, to protect and promote the military industry complex.

Our constitutional Republic form of gov't is the best govt in the world.....

What other nations gov't would you prefer over ours?


WHY DID TRUMP LIE about all of the Trump team connections and meetings with Russian operatives? Why did 5 different Trump Team members repeatedly deny and lie about their meetings with Russian operatives?

WHY?

If it were just normal meetings and not nefarious?

Thanks for the laugh.

No answers to the valid questions, eh? Are they too hard?

too stupid really

 

[Care4all]

Our constitutional Republic form of gov't is the best govt in the world.....

Uh-huh, that's like saying colon cancer is the best form of cancer in the world

Given current human nature government is a necessary evil but even the best government is still EVIL, it's just less evil than all its competitors.

If/when human nature evolves to the point where government is no longer necessary then the very best thing that human beings can EVER do for themselves is to abolish government.

"Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer." -- Thomas Paine

I agree our gvt is not perfect, but there is no form of govt running any other nation, that I would rather have, or is better than our system, and THAT was my point nightfox!