Saudi Arabian woman is kicked out of mall for not wearing gloves

[Pogo]

That's not another country -- that's here.

It's a different time, is all. Just an illustration of how cultural mores decide what the local 'moral' standards are going to be. That guy with the tape measure isn't working on behalf of any religion -- he's working on behalf of the local community standards, as they were understood and commonly accepted at the time.

Again -- a product of culture -- not religion.

I was actually searching for pics of my grandmother from around those days but don't seem to have 'em handy, so I settled for this.

Yes, but we are a secular society and not a theocracy. And "community standards" and such things as morals are usually based on religious beliefs.

Eh -- not really. They're based on what the public accepts and where the "line" is.. Can you point to where in the Bible they measure skirts for the beach? And if so, how come they don't do it any more?

See what I mean?

That is based upon "modesty" which is in fact a religious belief.

Uh -- no it isn't. It's a cultural standard.

Since our nation is not so religious anymore and because we have more diversity now, we are more relaxed with our beliefs is all. All of those things about modesty, etc., stem from religious beliefs.

No they don't. In the example above, the local ordinance was laid down by a "Col. Sherrill, Superintendent of Public Buildings and Grounds". He didn't get that from a church or synagogue. Nowhere in any Bible is there a mandate on how far above the knee a skirt should be, or about beachwear at all. That was made up by the local community, rightly or wrongly, to set what the public would consider "decent". Not what the church would consider -- the public. Or at least the authorities purporting to speak for the public, but again -- civil authorities, not clerical. And the skirt length was the same regardless if you were a Presbyterian or Pagan, Jew or atheist.

In the Bible, what is the first lesson that Adam and Eve learn? That seeing each other naked was bad. They immediately went and covered themselves to hide their nudity from one another.

And we circle right back to this: when the Holey Babble was written down (by humans), it all reflected the culture of the time. The Babble and similar religious texts are the original "backstory". A look back to the past to try to explain how we got here. That sort of flashback to the past is necessarily going to reflect the known and established culture of the present. First thing you do is establish a lead character -- "God", "Allah", "Flying Spaghetti Monster", whoever. Next thing you do is put your rules in His mouth. And unless you're trying to use this new religion to transmogrify what the culture already IS (and good luck with that)*, you reflect the community standards you like. The god is the Enforcer, the Fear Factor.

* As mentioned before, Islam specifically tried to religiously mandate-out the long-established practice of "honor killing" by proscribihg it in the Qur'an -- yet it still goes on in Islamic communites in Pakistan (and it also goes on in Hindu and Sikh communities in India, which is just further proof that it's cultural, not religious). Which illutstrates that where there's a conflict oof the two, culture will trump religion.

That's why, to return to your first sentence here, we're "not so religious anymore". Because the culture morphed in other directions that made the previous degree of religious activity less relevant. Culture leads; religion follows.

Hell, Christianity used to condone burning women alive in the town square. The culture demanded that that change -- and it did.

 

[ChrisL]

Yes, but we are a secular society and not a theocracy. And "community standards" and such things as morals are usually based on religious beliefs.

Eh -- not really. They're based on what the public accepts and where the "line" is.. Can you point to where in the Bible they measure skirts for the beach? And if so, how come they don't do it any more?

See what I mean?

That is based upon "modesty" which is in fact a religious belief.

Uh -- no it isn't. It's a cultural standard.

Since our nation is not so religious anymore and because we have more diversity now, we are more relaxed with our beliefs is all. All of those things about modesty, etc., stem from religious beliefs.

No they don't. In the example above, the local ordinance was laid down by a "Col. Sherrill, Superintendent of Public Buildings and Grounds". He didn't get that from a church or synagogue. Nowhere in any Bible is there a mandate on how far above the knee a skirt should be, or about beachwear at all. That was made up by the local community, rightly or wrongly, to set what the public would consider "decent". Not what the church would consider -- the public. Or at least the authorities purporting to speak for the public, but again -- civil authorities, not clerical. And the skirt length was the same regardless if you were a Presbyterian or Pagan, Jew or atheist.

In the Bible, what is the first lesson that Adam and Eve learn? That seeing each other naked was bad. They immediately went and covered themselves to hide their nudity from one another.

And we circle right back to this: when the Holey Babble was written down (by humans), it all reflected the culture of the time. The Babble and similar religious texts are the original "backstory". A look back to the past to try to explain how we got here. That sort of flashback to the past is necessarily going to reflect the known and established culture of the present. First thing you do is establish a lead character -- "God", "Allah", "Flying Spaghetti Monster", whoever. Next thing you do is put your rules in His mouth. And unless you're trying to use this new religion to transmogrify what the culture already IS (and good luck with that)*, you reflect the community standards you like. The god is the Enforcer, the Fear Factor.

As mentioned before, Islam specifically tried to religiously mandate-out the long-established practice of "honor killing" by proscribihg it in the Qur'an -- yet it still goes on in Islamic communites in Pakistan (and it also goes on in Hindu and Sikh communities in India, which is just further proof that it's cultural, not religious). Which illutstrates that where there's a conflict oof the two, culture will trump religion.

That's why, to return to your first sentence here, we're "not so religious anymore". Because the culture morphed in other directions that made it less relevant. Culture leads; religion follows.

Hell, Christianity used to condone burning women alive in the town square. The culture demanded that that change -- and it did.

Well, no kidding Pogo. That is because we are not a theocracy. However, that does not mean that cultural standards are not BASED upon religious beliefs, because in most cases they are. Yes, modesty is mentioned throughout the bible, as well as the Quran. It is a very important part of most religions. That is why people like the Duggars make their girls wear dresses that do not rise above the knee, etc.

I know the bible was written by humans, but that doesn't matter to the believers. They base their culture and their lifestyles around their religious beliefs for the most part. Morals and values, a lot of times, are extensions of those beliefs.

It is certainly NOT just cultural. Yes, our culture has eased off because we are not a theocracy. However, if some of the religious people in this country could have their way, you can bet your butt that we would also have such laws.

 

[Pogo]

Eh -- not really. They're based on what the public accepts and where the "line" is.. Can you point to where in the Bible they measure skirts for the beach? And if so, how come they don't do it any more?

See what I mean?

That is based upon "modesty" which is in fact a religious belief.

Uh -- no it isn't. It's a cultural standard.

Since our nation is not so religious anymore and because we have more diversity now, we are more relaxed with our beliefs is all. All of those things about modesty, etc., stem from religious beliefs.

No they don't. In the example above, the local ordinance was laid down by a "Col. Sherrill, Superintendent of Public Buildings and Grounds". He didn't get that from a church or synagogue. Nowhere in any Bible is there a mandate on how far above the knee a skirt should be, or about beachwear at all. That was made up by the local community, rightly or wrongly, to set what the public would consider "decent". Not what the church would consider -- the public. Or at least the authorities purporting to speak for the public, but again -- civil authorities, not clerical. And the skirt length was the same regardless if you were a Presbyterian or Pagan, Jew or atheist.

In the Bible, what is the first lesson that Adam and Eve learn? That seeing each other naked was bad. They immediately went and covered themselves to hide their nudity from one another.

And we circle right back to this: when the Holey Babble was written down (by humans), it all reflected the culture of the time. The Babble and similar religious texts are the original "backstory". A look back to the past to try to explain how we got here. That sort of flashback to the past is necessarily going to reflect the known and established culture of the present. First thing you do is establish a lead character -- "God", "Allah", "Flying Spaghetti Monster", whoever. Next thing you do is put your rules in His mouth. And unless you're trying to use this new religion to transmogrify what the culture already IS (and good luck with that)*, you reflect the community standards you like. The god is the Enforcer, the Fear Factor.

As mentioned before, Islam specifically tried to religiously mandate-out the long-established practice of "honor killing" by proscribihg it in the Qur'an -- yet it still goes on in Islamic communites in Pakistan (and it also goes on in Hindu and Sikh communities in India, which is just further proof that it's cultural, not religious). Which illutstrates that where there's a conflict oof the two, culture will trump religion.

That's why, to return to your first sentence here, we're "not so religious anymore". Because the culture morphed in other directions that made it less relevant. Culture leads; religion follows.

Hell, Christianity used to condone burning women alive in the town square. The culture demanded that that change -- and it did.

Well, no kidding Pogo. That is because we are not a theocracy. However, that does not mean that cultural standards are not BASED upon religious beliefs, because in most cases they are. Yes, modesty is mentioned throughout the bible, as well as the Quran. It is a very important part of most religions. That is why people like the Duggars make their girls wear dresses that do not rise above the knee, etc.

All communities, everywhere in every time, have cultural standards, certainly including "modesty", and they establish those LONG BEFORE they establish a religion. Culture leads; religion follows.

I know the bible was written by humans, but that doesn't matter to the believers. They base their culture and their lifestyles around their religious beliefs for the most part. Morals and values, a lot of times, are extensions of those beliefs.

It is certainly NOT just cultural. Yes, our culture has eased off because we are not a theocracy. However, if some of the religious people in this country could have their way, you can bet your butt that we would also have such laws.

Our culture didn't "ease off because we are not a theocracy"--- we have never been a theocracy. That was much of the whole point. Culture "eased off" (changed) largely because of industrialization, and the changing values, lifestyles, economy and living arrangements that came with it. Again, religion had no choice but to follow along with that, including taking hits in dwindling congregations who found the place increasingly less relevant.

But yes I do agree with the last part; we would indeed.

 

[ChrisL]

Anyway, I'm going to be logging off now. It's getting late here. This was really nice though . . . we actually accomplished having a nice intelligent and civil discussion that didn't devolve into

Yay for us!

TTYL guys! Have a good night!

 

[Pogo]

Yet another illustration...

We decorate our houses with evergreens and trees and lights and holly and mistletoe around Christmas. Then a few months later we tell our kids of Peter Rabbit and send them out on an Easter egg hunt.

Are either of these traditions "religious"? They're associated with religious holidays after all...

No they're not. They were practiced long before Christianism co-opted the holidays for religious purposes. Culture leads; religion follows.

 

[Pogo]

Anyway, I'm going to be logging off now. It's getting late here. This was really nice though . . . we actually accomplished having a nice intelligent and civil discussion that didn't devolve into

Yay for us!

TTYL guys! Have a good night!

Well may I say that's entirely your fault. You had to come in here and elevate things.

j/k G'nite.

 

[ChrisL]

Yet another illustration...

We decorate our houses with evergreens and trees and lights and holly and mistletoe around Christmas. Then a few months later we tell our kids of Peter Rabbit and send them out on an Easter egg hunt.

Are either of these traditions "religious"? They're associated with religious holidays after all...

No they're not. They were practiced long before Christianism co-opted the holidays for religious purposes. Culture leads; religion follows.

They were also pagan beliefs. Sorry, but I agree with Gatsby that culture and religion are pretty much one in the same. Your religion is going to dictate your culture, not vice versa.

 

[aris2chat]

Hiding the body or, face or hands is not a requirement in the quran. It is a form of abuse to keep women from being equals to men.
There is no real reason to hide a women under a sheet if she wants to go outside. The requirement is for women to cover their breast before entering a mosque.
Women in the time of Mohammed owned business, dressed in bright colors, painted their bodies, ruled people and lands, even fought in war bare breasted with Mohammed.
why is it that so many muslims don't really understand their own religion?

 

[Bleipriester]

Hiding the body or, face or hands is not a requirement in the quran. It is a form of abuse to keep women from being equals to men.
There is no real reason to hide a women under a sheet if she wants to go outside. The requirement is for women to cover their breast before entering a mosque.
Women in the time of Mohammed owned business, dressed in bright colors, painted their bodies, ruled people and lands, even fought in war bare breasted with Mohammed.
why is it that so many muslims don't really understand their own religion?

Tell that your fellow terrorists in Syria.

 

[Pogo]

Yet another illustration...

We decorate our houses with evergreens and trees and lights and holly and mistletoe around Christmas. Then a few months later we tell our kids of Peter Rabbit and send them out on an Easter egg hunt.

Are either of these traditions "religious"? They're associated with religious holidays after all...

No they're not. They were practiced long before Christianism co-opted the holidays for religious purposes. Culture leads; religion follows.

They were also pagan beliefs. Sorry, but I agree with Gatsby that culture and religion are pretty much one in the same. Your religion is going to dictate your culture, not vice versa.

That's quite impossible since culture -- the way one lives day-to-day -- comes WAY before religion. You cannot establish a religion before you establish a culture. Not possible.

Yes, these were pagan traditions, already long established when the religion came along, saw that it wasn't going to be able to compete with entrenched cultural traditions (two more: Valentine's Day and Hallowe'en) and so tried to integrate them into the religion getting some attention out of what already existed.

So the religion invented a "Saint Valentine after the fact; they invented "All Saints Day" after the fact; they used the date of December 25 (completely unsupported by any history) after the fact, etc. And that's the whole point here... Culture leads, religion follows. It either follows or it gets the hell out of the way.

Culture dictates lifestyle; religion complies with it. It's always been that way, everywhere.

 

[Pogo]

Hiding the body or, face or hands is not a requirement in the quran. It is a form of abuse to keep women from being equals to men.
There is no real reason to hide a women under a sheet if she wants to go outside. The requirement is for women to cover their breast before entering a mosque.
Women in the time of Mohammed owned business, dressed in bright colors, painted their bodies, ruled people and lands, even fought in war bare breasted with Mohammed.
why is it that so many muslims don't really understand their own religion?

Thank you, that's exactly what it's about --- control of women. The same motivation Christian women are supposed to cover their heads in church and can't be priests. Just as with "honor" killings and female genital mutilations, it's all about men being scared shitless of women's power. It's kind of worrisome when even a woman would rather go with a pre-scripted political meme than acknowledge what's going on underneath it.

 

[irosie91]

It's a sick twisted culture.

nice girls wear white gloves. I had a pair of white gloves when I was two years old-----very
cute

 

[aris2chat]

Hiding the body or, face or hands is not a requirement in the quran. It is a form of abuse to keep women from being equals to men.
There is no real reason to hide a women under a sheet if she wants to go outside. The requirement is for women to cover their breast before entering a mosque.
Women in the time of Mohammed owned business, dressed in bright colors, painted their bodies, ruled people and lands, even fought in war bare breasted with Mohammed.
why is it that so many muslims don't really understand their own religion?

Thank you, that's exactly what it's about --- control of women. The same motivation Christian women are supposed to cover their heads in church and can't be priests. Just as with "honor" killings and female genital mutilations, it's all about men being scared shitless of women's power. It's kind of worrisome when even a woman would rather go with a pre-scripted political meme than acknowledge what's going on underneath it.

Cover the head for men and women in a place of worship is a sign of respect to god

As for a priest or church leader, today women lead religious services for jews, christians and muslims. Times are a changing.

 

[Bleipriester]

Hiding the body or, face or hands is not a requirement in the quran. It is a form of abuse to keep women from being equals to men.
There is no real reason to hide a women under a sheet if she wants to go outside. The requirement is for women to cover their breast before entering a mosque.
Women in the time of Mohammed owned business, dressed in bright colors, painted their bodies, ruled people and lands, even fought in war bare breasted with Mohammed.
why is it that so many muslims don't really understand their own religion?

Thank you, that's exactly what it's about --- control of women. The same motivation Christian women are supposed to cover their heads in church and can't be priests. Just as with "honor" killings and female genital mutilations, it's all about men being scared shitless of women's power. It's kind of worrisome when even a woman would rather go with a pre-scripted political meme than acknowledge what's going on underneath it.

Cover the head for men and women in a place of worship is a sign of respect to god

As for a priest or church leader, today women lead religious services for jews, christians and muslims. Times are a changing.

As we know, the Christianity is the most persecuted religion today. There is little interest for example in Turkey in priests or Christianity and the Church for example in Germany is on a continuous downtrend. While native people start to discard religion, the only thing the migrationbackgroundlers have really imported is Hate-Islam which is on the rise. Vapouring about alleged religious equality in the face of that developing is at least very strange.

 

[Pogo]

Hiding the body or, face or hands is not a requirement in the quran. It is a form of abuse to keep women from being equals to men.
There is no real reason to hide a women under a sheet if she wants to go outside. The requirement is for women to cover their breast before entering a mosque.
Women in the time of Mohammed owned business, dressed in bright colors, painted their bodies, ruled people and lands, even fought in war bare breasted with Mohammed.
why is it that so many muslims don't really understand their own religion?

Thank you, that's exactly what it's about --- control of women. The same motivation Christian women are supposed to cover their heads in church and can't be priests. Just as with "honor" killings and female genital mutilations, it's all about men being scared shitless of women's power. It's kind of worrisome when even a woman would rather go with a pre-scripted political meme than acknowledge what's going on underneath it.

Cover the head for men and women in a place of worship is a sign of respect to god

Where I came up (Catholic), only the females were supposed to cover their head. Either way, it doesn't make much sense really -- if "God" made the head, it would seem mildly insulting to hide it.
But then, religion was never about logic.

As for a priest or church leader, today women lead religious services for jews, christians and muslims. Times are a changing.

Yup, and again, culture leads, religion follows.

 

[Pogo]

Hiding the body or, face or hands is not a requirement in the quran. It is a form of abuse to keep women from being equals to men.
There is no real reason to hide a women under a sheet if she wants to go outside. The requirement is for women to cover their breast before entering a mosque.
Women in the time of Mohammed owned business, dressed in bright colors, painted their bodies, ruled people and lands, even fought in war bare breasted with Mohammed.
why is it that so many muslims don't really understand their own religion?

Thank you, that's exactly what it's about --- control of women. The same motivation Christian women are supposed to cover their heads in church and can't be priests. Just as with "honor" killings and female genital mutilations, it's all about men being scared shitless of women's power. It's kind of worrisome when even a woman would rather go with a pre-scripted political meme than acknowledge what's going on underneath it.

Cover the head for men and women in a place of worship is a sign of respect to god

As for a priest or church leader, today women lead religious services for jews, christians and muslims. Times are a changing.

As we know, the Christianity is the most persecuted religion today.

Clearly that's not the case on this board.

There is little interest for example in Turkey in priests or Christianity and the Church for example in Germany is on a continuous downtrend. While native people start to discard religion, the only thing the migrationbackgroundlers have really imported is Hate-Islam which is on the rise. Vapouring about alleged religious equality in the face of that developing is at least very strange.

"Little interest" or "being on a continuous downtrend" isn't "persecution". It's simply a product that's not selling.

 

[Bleipriester]

"Little interest" or "being on a continuous downtrend" isn't "persecution". It's simply a product that's not selling.

You didn´t get it. "Little interest" means that you cannot go to Turkey as priest. If you are a priest, you can only come as "diplomat". Christian literature may not be distributed in Turkey. The downtrend in Germany on the other side is tolerated by the government. The government and its puppets, even Church representatives, are cheering each new mosque and tax money is being taken for its construction. The partner of that project, that also funds the new mosque is an organization like Milli Görüs. Milli Görüs is an offshoot of an Turkish Islamic party and surely enjoys the Turkish government´s funding. Milli Görüs also acts as IGMG. The organization was created to act abroad (from Turkish view) in order to spread Islam and is some kind of federation.

These are not examples for persecution, of course, and were not meant to be some. The statement is a global statement.

 

[Pogo]

"Little interest" or "being on a continuous downtrend" isn't "persecution". It's simply a product that's not selling.

You didn´t get it. "Little interest" means that you cannot go to Turkey as priest. If you are a priest, you can only come as "diplomat". Christian literature may not be distributed in Turkey.

I dunno about that, but that would be government anyway. It doesn't have anything to do with whether there's "interest" in a religion or not.

 

[Sally]

Hiding the body or, face or hands is not a requirement in the quran. It is a form of abuse to keep women from being equals to men.
There is no real reason to hide a women under a sheet if she wants to go outside. The requirement is for women to cover their breast before entering a mosque.
Women in the time of Mohammed owned business, dressed in bright colors, painted their bodies, ruled people and lands, even fought in war bare breasted with Mohammed.
why is it that so many muslims don't really understand their own religion?

Thank you, that's exactly what it's about --- control of women. The same motivation Christian women are supposed to cover their heads in church and can't be priests. Just as with "honor" killings and female genital mutilations, it's all about men being scared shitless of women's power. It's kind of worrisome when even a woman would rather go with a pre-scripted political meme than acknowledge what's going on underneath it.

Cover the head for men and women in a place of worship is a sign of respect to god

Where I came up (Catholic), only the females were supposed to cover their head. Either way, it doesn't make much sense really -- if "God" made the head, it would seem mildly insulting to hide it.
But then, religion was never about logic.

As for a priest or church leader, today women lead religious services for jews, christians and muslims. Times are a changing.

Yup, and again, culture leads, religion follows.

Since you guys really got into this "glove" article, here's an article you can chew on and give your opinion.

The battle between the veil and the miniskirt - BBC News

 

[ChrisL]

Hiding the body or, face or hands is not a requirement in the quran. It is a form of abuse to keep women from being equals to men.
There is no real reason to hide a women under a sheet if she wants to go outside. The requirement is for women to cover their breast before entering a mosque.
Women in the time of Mohammed owned business, dressed in bright colors, painted their bodies, ruled people and lands, even fought in war bare breasted with Mohammed.
why is it that so many muslims don't really understand their own religion?

Thank you, that's exactly what it's about --- control of women. The same motivation Christian women are supposed to cover their heads in church and can't be priests. Just as with "honor" killings and female genital mutilations, it's all about men being scared shitless of women's power. It's kind of worrisome when even a woman would rather go with a pre-scripted political meme than acknowledge what's going on underneath it.

Cover the head for men and women in a place of worship is a sign of respect to god

Where I came up (Catholic), only the females were supposed to cover their head. Either way, it doesn't make much sense really -- if "God" made the head, it would seem mildly insulting to hide it.
But then, religion was never about logic.

As for a priest or church leader, today women lead religious services for jews, christians and muslims. Times are a changing.

Yup, and again, culture leads, religion follows.

Since you guys really got into this "glove" article, here's an article you can chew on and give your opinion.

The battle between the veil and the miniskirt - BBC News

I prefer the miniskirt. Although, the veils that only wrap around the head aren't so bad, I definitely do not like the "completely covered" religious laws. It should be a choice. If that's how a woman wants to dress, then fine. If not, then she shouldn't be forced by men to wear what she doesn't wish to wear. That's my opinion.

Also, the comment made by the man about "men's attention," that doesn't seem to matter as plenty of women in the ME who wear that type of clothing are still raped.