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I oppose murder, it violates the self-ownership principle by violating the sovereignty of the individual that's murdered by taking that person's life. An individual owns their own life and it is immoral for another to take their life by force.I oppose rape. If you oppose rape, why do you oppose it?why do you oppose rape?I am asking a question. Do you oppose rape? If you do, why do you oppose it?
Of course. What does that have to do with the discussion at hand?
Why do you support rape?
Why do you support murder?
Just following your lead in throwing out straw man questions.
No. Unless you are selling sex... selling cake to the public is not like having sex.That's like saying that if you want to have sex with one person, you must have sex with everyone, consent be damned!If your religion is against selling products to the public.. then don't. The PA laws allow you to sell privately. Duh!It is participating in the ceremony, the cake is an extension of the baker, the product of their labor, same with the florist and their floral arrangement. It is also forced participation when you are forced to use your property, say a private chapel, to host a gay wedding. This violates free association and freedom of religion, the latter being previously guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.Participating in a ceremony that celebrates a sin is a sin. As I said, read 1 Timothy 5:22, don't share in the sins of others.Again, no one is being forced to go against their religion. The Bible doesn't say baking a cake is a sin.
Baking a cake is not a ceremony or participating in a ceremony- but if as a business owner, you have a problem complying with the law because of your religious beliefs, you should either change the law- or get out of business.
Can't refuse to serve Hindu's just because Hindu's live in sin because they worship a false god.
I am aware of what the law is now, the law violates the basic principle freedom of association, a common law principle that has existed for centuries in Anglo-Saxon world.
It is a shame for those that claim to support the idea "live and let live", that they can't let those who disagree with them alone and use the power of the state to prosecute them. Then again, this aggressive anti-social behavior is not a surprise given who we are dealing with.
No. Selling cake is not like selling yourself.The same principle applies. If we accept the premise that an individual owns themselves, than we recognize rape is wrong because it violates the self ownership principle by nullifying the individual's ability to consent to a sexual relationship. "Public accommodation" laws violate the self ownership principle by nullifying the individual's ability to consent to a commercial/business relationship, as the owner's store(his property) is an extension of himself.omfg... this scum bag is equating sexual rape with civil rights.. as if the right to access the public market is a rape of the public market... yeah no different than beating the shit out of someone and raping them... wow. Liberty is not the liberty to take liberty away from someone. Everyone has a right to buy products from our public markets. If you don't want to sell products to our public markets... don't.Its a reasonable question. Why do you think rape is wrong, philosophically speaking? This ties into the issue of self ownership and consent.why do you oppose rape?Of course. What does that have to do with the discussion at hand?
I'm not playing your dumbass game.
In two sentences you contradict yourself. You say liberty is not the liberty to take. Than in the very next sentence you say people are entitled to the property(the products and labor) of others.
You need to work out these internal contradictions in your worldview.
No. Selling cake is not like selling yourself.The same principle applies. If we accept the premise that an individual owns themselves, than we recognize rape is wrong because it violates the self ownership principle by nullifying the individual's ability to consent to a sexual relationship. "Public accommodation" laws violate the self ownership principle by nullifying the individual's ability to consent to a commercial/business relationship, as the owner's store(his property) is an extension of himself.omfg... this scum bag is equating sexual rape with civil rights.. as if the right to access the public market is a rape of the public market... yeah no different than beating the shit out of someone and raping them... wow. Liberty is not the liberty to take liberty away from someone. Everyone has a right to buy products from our public markets. If you don't want to sell products to our public markets... don't.Its a reasonable question. Why do you think rape is wrong, philosophically speaking? This ties into the issue of self ownership and consent.why do you oppose rape?
I'm not playing your dumbass game.
In two sentences you contradict yourself. You say liberty is not the liberty to take. Than in the very next sentence you say people are entitled to the property(the products and labor) of others.
You need to work out these internal contradictions in your worldview.
Ok lets go with that. So if a prostitute sells sex to one man, she must sell her body to all men? By becoming a prostitute withdraws consent to decide who to have sex with? By your very standard you are supporting legalized rape.No. Unless you are selling sex... selling cake to the public is not like having sex.That's like saying that if you want to have sex with one person, you must have sex with everyone, consent be damned!If your religion is against selling products to the public.. then don't. The PA laws allow you to sell privately. Duh!It is participating in the ceremony, the cake is an extension of the baker, the product of their labor, same with the florist and their floral arrangement. It is also forced participation when you are forced to use your property, say a private chapel, to host a gay wedding. This violates free association and freedom of religion, the latter being previously guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.Participating in a ceremony that celebrates a sin is a sin. As I said, read 1 Timothy 5:22, don't share in the sins of others.
Baking a cake is not a ceremony or participating in a ceremony- but if as a business owner, you have a problem complying with the law because of your religious beliefs, you should either change the law- or get out of business.
Can't refuse to serve Hindu's just because Hindu's live in sin because they worship a false god.
I am aware of what the law is now, the law violates the basic principle freedom of association, a common law principle that has existed for centuries in Anglo-Saxon world.
It is a shame for those that claim to support the idea "live and let live", that they can't let those who disagree with them alone and use the power of the state to prosecute them. Then again, this aggressive anti-social behavior is not a surprise given who we are dealing with.
Labor and sex are both acts of the individual.No. Unless you are selling sex... selling cake to the public is not like having sex.That's like saying that if you want to have sex with one person, you must have sex with everyone, consent be damned!If your religion is against selling products to the public.. then don't. The PA laws allow you to sell privately. Duh!It is participating in the ceremony, the cake is an extension of the baker, the product of their labor, same with the florist and their floral arrangement. It is also forced participation when you are forced to use your property, say a private chapel, to host a gay wedding. This violates free association and freedom of religion, the latter being previously guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.Participating in a ceremony that celebrates a sin is a sin. As I said, read 1 Timothy 5:22, don't share in the sins of others.
Baking a cake is not a ceremony or participating in a ceremony- but if as a business owner, you have a problem complying with the law because of your religious beliefs, you should either change the law- or get out of business.
Can't refuse to serve Hindu's just because Hindu's live in sin because they worship a false god.
I am aware of what the law is now, the law violates the basic principle freedom of association, a common law principle that has existed for centuries in Anglo-Saxon world.
It is a shame for those that claim to support the idea "live and let live", that they can't let those who disagree with them alone and use the power of the state to prosecute them. Then again, this aggressive anti-social behavior is not a surprise given who we are dealing with.
Ok lets go with that. So if a prostitute sells sex to one man, she must sell her body to all men? By becoming a prostitute withdraws consent to decide who to have sex with? By your very standard you are supporting legalized rape.No. Unless you are selling sex... selling cake to the public is not like having sex.That's like saying that if you want to have sex with one person, you must have sex with everyone, consent be damned!If your religion is against selling products to the public.. then don't. The PA laws allow you to sell privately. Duh!It is participating in the ceremony, the cake is an extension of the baker, the product of their labor, same with the florist and their floral arrangement. It is also forced participation when you are forced to use your property, say a private chapel, to host a gay wedding. This violates free association and freedom of religion, the latter being previously guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.Baking a cake is not a ceremony or participating in a ceremony- but if as a business owner, you have a problem complying with the law because of your religious beliefs, you should either change the law- or get out of business.
Can't refuse to serve Hindu's just because Hindu's live in sin because they worship a false god.
I am aware of what the law is now, the law violates the basic principle freedom of association, a common law principle that has existed for centuries in Anglo-Saxon world.
It is a shame for those that claim to support the idea "live and let live", that they can't let those who disagree with them alone and use the power of the state to prosecute them. Then again, this aggressive anti-social behavior is not a surprise given who we are dealing with.
It's odd. I doubt many on the left would oppose boycotts, that is, refusing to give business to a firm . But they oppose that firm's ability withdraw form doing business with individuals.No. Selling cake is not like selling yourself.The same principle applies. If we accept the premise that an individual owns themselves, than we recognize rape is wrong because it violates the self ownership principle by nullifying the individual's ability to consent to a sexual relationship. "Public accommodation" laws violate the self ownership principle by nullifying the individual's ability to consent to a commercial/business relationship, as the owner's store(his property) is an extension of himself.omfg... this scum bag is equating sexual rape with civil rights.. as if the right to access the public market is a rape of the public market... yeah no different than beating the shit out of someone and raping them... wow. Liberty is not the liberty to take liberty away from someone. Everyone has a right to buy products from our public markets. If you don't want to sell products to our public markets... don't.Its a reasonable question. Why do you think rape is wrong, philosophically speaking? This ties into the issue of self ownership and consent.I'm not playing your dumbass game.
In two sentences you contradict yourself. You say liberty is not the liberty to take. Than in the very next sentence you say people are entitled to the property(the products and labor) of others.
You need to work out these internal contradictions in your worldview.
It is selling your labor. Cakes don't bake themselves.
Over in another thread right now there is an idiot arguing that churches should be forced to have to hire gays if they want to work at them.
When does this bullshit stop? Every time we turn around now there is some new group wanting to be able to force businesses to serve them.
How do you EVER have a right to do business with me, rather than the other way around and me having the right to choose my customers?
They are both acts of labor and an extension of the individual. Your argument isn't philosophically consistent. You can't say a prostitute on one hand has the right to refuse service to a customer but that a baker doesn't.Ok lets go with that. So if a prostitute sells sex to one man, she must sell her body to all men? By becoming a prostitute withdraws consent to decide who to have sex with? By your very standard you are supporting legalized rape.No. Unless you are selling sex... selling cake to the public is not like having sex.That's like saying that if you want to have sex with one person, you must have sex with everyone, consent be damned!If your religion is against selling products to the public.. then don't. The PA laws allow you to sell privately. Duh!It is participating in the ceremony, the cake is an extension of the baker, the product of their labor, same with the florist and their floral arrangement. It is also forced participation when you are forced to use your property, say a private chapel, to host a gay wedding. This violates free association and freedom of religion, the latter being previously guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.
I am aware of what the law is now, the law violates the basic principle freedom of association, a common law principle that has existed for centuries in Anglo-Saxon world.
It is a shame for those that claim to support the idea "live and let live", that they can't let those who disagree with them alone and use the power of the state to prosecute them. Then again, this aggressive anti-social behavior is not a surprise given who we are dealing with.
LOL....you are really going off the deep end.
You think that baking cakes is the same as prostitution.
Ok lets go with that. So if a prostitute sells sex to one man, she must sell her body to all men? By becoming a prostitute withdraws consent to decide who to have sex with? By your very standard you are supporting legalized rape.No. Unless you are selling sex... selling cake to the public is not like having sex.That's like saying that if you want to have sex with one person, you must have sex with everyone, consent be damned!If your religion is against selling products to the public.. then don't. The PA laws allow you to sell privately. Duh!It is participating in the ceremony, the cake is an extension of the baker, the product of their labor, same with the florist and their floral arrangement. It is also forced participation when you are forced to use your property, say a private chapel, to host a gay wedding. This violates free association and freedom of religion, the latter being previously guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.
I am aware of what the law is now, the law violates the basic principle freedom of association, a common law principle that has existed for centuries in Anglo-Saxon world.
It is a shame for those that claim to support the idea "live and let live", that they can't let those who disagree with them alone and use the power of the state to prosecute them. Then again, this aggressive anti-social behavior is not a surprise given who we are dealing with.
LOL....you are really going off the deep end.
You think that baking cakes is the same as prostitution.
Ok lets go with that. So if a prostitute sells sex to one man, she must sell her body to all men? By becoming a prostitute withdraws consent to decide who to have sex with? By your very standard you are supporting legalized rape.No. Unless you are selling sex... selling cake to the public is not like having sex.That's like saying that if you want to have sex with one person, you must have sex with everyone, consent be damned!If your religion is against selling products to the public.. then don't. The PA laws allow you to sell privately. Duh!
LOL....you are really going off the deep end.
You think that baking cakes is the same as prostitution.
It is in terms of the law , where prostitution is legal of course
Let's take Nevada, for example where prostitution is legal, outside of Las Vegas itself, do you think that if a Jewish customer went into a legal brothel and they refused to service him b/c he's a Jew and he sued that he would win? Yes or no?
They are both acts of labor and an extension of the individual. Your argument isn't philosophically consistent. You can't say a prostitute on one hand has the right to refuse service to a customer but that a baker doesn't.Ok lets go with that. So if a prostitute sells sex to one man, she must sell her body to all men? By becoming a prostitute withdraws consent to decide who to have sex with? By your very standard you are supporting legalized rape.No. Unless you are selling sex... selling cake to the public is not like having sex.That's like saying that if you want to have sex with one person, you must have sex with everyone, consent be damned!If your religion is against selling products to the public.. then don't. The PA laws allow you to sell privately. Duh!
LOL....you are really going off the deep end.
You think that baking cakes is the same as prostitution.
Ok lets go with that. So if a prostitute sells sex to one man, she must sell her body to all men? By becoming a prostitute withdraws consent to decide who to have sex with? By your very standard you are supporting legalized rape.No. Unless you are selling sex... selling cake to the public is not like having sex.That's like saying that if you want to have sex with one person, you must have sex with everyone, consent be damned!
LOL....you are really going off the deep end.
You think that baking cakes is the same as prostitution.
It is in terms of the law , where prostitution is legal of course
Let's take Nevada, for example where prostitution is legal, outside of Las Vegas itself, do you think that if a Jewish customer went into a legal brothel and they refused to service him b/c he's a Jew and he sued that he would win? Yes or no?
The funny part of this is that you do have a point.
BUT- the point is that the prostitutes employer would insist that she service all customers regardless of their race or religion.
So you would agree then that employers are all rapists?
And that therefore Bakers are just like rapists?
If you join the military you agree to the rules. If you sell to the public you agree to the rules. If you want to join a private club... you agree to the private clubs' rules. You don't want to sell to the public... don't sell to the public it's just that easy.No. Selling cake is not like selling yourself.The same principle applies. If we accept the premise that an individual owns themselves, than we recognize rape is wrong because it violates the self ownership principle by nullifying the individual's ability to consent to a sexual relationship. "Public accommodation" laws violate the self ownership principle by nullifying the individual's ability to consent to a commercial/business relationship, as the owner's store(his property) is an extension of himself.omfg... this scum bag is equating sexual rape with civil rights.. as if the right to access the public market is a rape of the public market... yeah no different than beating the shit out of someone and raping them... wow. Liberty is not the liberty to take liberty away from someone. Everyone has a right to buy products from our public markets. If you don't want to sell products to our public markets... don't.Its a reasonable question. Why do you think rape is wrong, philosophically speaking? This ties into the issue of self ownership and consent.I'm not playing your dumbass game.
In two sentences you contradict yourself. You say liberty is not the liberty to take. Than in the very next sentence you say people are entitled to the property(the products and labor) of others.
You need to work out these internal contradictions in your worldview.
It is selling your labor. Cakes don't bake themselves.
Over in another thread right now there is an idiot arguing that churches should be forced to have to hire gays if they want to work at them.
When does this bullshit stop? Every time we turn around now there is some new group wanting to be able to force businesses to serve them.
How do you EVER have a right to do business with me, rather than the other way around and me having the right to choose my customers?
And so is taking a shit and murder. Some acts are not the same as other acts.Labor and sex are both acts of the individual.No. Unless you are selling sex... selling cake to the public is not like having sex.That's like saying that if you want to have sex with one person, you must have sex with everyone, consent be damned!If your religion is against selling products to the public.. then don't. The PA laws allow you to sell privately. Duh!It is participating in the ceremony, the cake is an extension of the baker, the product of their labor, same with the florist and their floral arrangement. It is also forced participation when you are forced to use your property, say a private chapel, to host a gay wedding. This violates free association and freedom of religion, the latter being previously guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.Baking a cake is not a ceremony or participating in a ceremony- but if as a business owner, you have a problem complying with the law because of your religious beliefs, you should either change the law- or get out of business.
Can't refuse to serve Hindu's just because Hindu's live in sin because they worship a false god.
I am aware of what the law is now, the law violates the basic principle freedom of association, a common law principle that has existed for centuries in Anglo-Saxon world.
It is a shame for those that claim to support the idea "live and let live", that they can't let those who disagree with them alone and use the power of the state to prosecute them. Then again, this aggressive anti-social behavior is not a surprise given who we are dealing with.
If you join the military you agree to the rules. If you sell to the public you agree to the rules. If you want to join a private club... you agree to the private clubs' rules. You don't want to sell to the public... don't sell to the public it's just that easy.No. Selling cake is not like selling yourself.The same principle applies. If we accept the premise that an individual owns themselves, than we recognize rape is wrong because it violates the self ownership principle by nullifying the individual's ability to consent to a sexual relationship. "Public accommodation" laws violate the self ownership principle by nullifying the individual's ability to consent to a commercial/business relationship, as the owner's store(his property) is an extension of himself.omfg... this scum bag is equating sexual rape with civil rights.. as if the right to access the public market is a rape of the public market... yeah no different than beating the shit out of someone and raping them... wow. Liberty is not the liberty to take liberty away from someone. Everyone has a right to buy products from our public markets. If you don't want to sell products to our public markets... don't.Its a reasonable question. Why do you think rape is wrong, philosophically speaking? This ties into the issue of self ownership and consent.
In two sentences you contradict yourself. You say liberty is not the liberty to take. Than in the very next sentence you say people are entitled to the property(the products and labor) of others.
You need to work out these internal contradictions in your worldview.
It is selling your labor. Cakes don't bake themselves.
Over in another thread right now there is an idiot arguing that churches should be forced to have to hire gays if they want to work at them.
When does this bullshit stop? Every time we turn around now there is some new group wanting to be able to force businesses to serve them.
How do you EVER have a right to do business with me, rather than the other way around and me having the right to choose my customers?
If she signed a contract in which it stipulated she could not discriminate which clients she provided sexual services based on race or religion or whatever, than no, it would not be rape in the case of the jewish customer. However, if that was no stipulated in the employment contract, or the prostitute was an independent contractor and the state mandated that the business or herself discriminate against any customer, than yes, it would be rape, because their consent would be nullified.They are both acts of labor and an extension of the individual. Your argument isn't philosophically consistent. You can't say a prostitute on one hand has the right to refuse service to a customer but that a baker doesn't.Ok lets go with that. So if a prostitute sells sex to one man, she must sell her body to all men? By becoming a prostitute withdraws consent to decide who to have sex with? By your very standard you are supporting legalized rape.No. Unless you are selling sex... selling cake to the public is not like having sex.That's like saying that if you want to have sex with one person, you must have sex with everyone, consent be damned!
LOL....you are really going off the deep end.
You think that baking cakes is the same as prostitution.
As I said to Saint- if the prostitutes employer insisted(as they would) that she service someone regardless of whether she wanted to or not- would that make them rapists?
And if so- would that make Bakers who tell their employees that they must service all customers- rapists also?
You don't have the right to murder someone because you are violating the self-ownership principle by taking a life that does not belong to you, but belongs to the individual you murdered.And so is taking a shit and murder. Some acts are not the same as other acts.Labor and sex are both acts of the individual.No. Unless you are selling sex... selling cake to the public is not like having sex.That's like saying that if you want to have sex with one person, you must have sex with everyone, consent be damned!If your religion is against selling products to the public.. then don't. The PA laws allow you to sell privately. Duh!It is participating in the ceremony, the cake is an extension of the baker, the product of their labor, same with the florist and their floral arrangement. It is also forced participation when you are forced to use your property, say a private chapel, to host a gay wedding. This violates free association and freedom of religion, the latter being previously guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.
I am aware of what the law is now, the law violates the basic principle freedom of association, a common law principle that has existed for centuries in Anglo-Saxon world.
It is a shame for those that claim to support the idea "live and let live", that they can't let those who disagree with them alone and use the power of the state to prosecute them. Then again, this aggressive anti-social behavior is not a surprise given who we are dealing with.
Huh?If you join the military you agree to the rules. If you sell to the public you agree to the rules. If you want to join a private club... you agree to the private clubs' rules. You don't want to sell to the public... don't sell to the public it's just that easy.No. Selling cake is not like selling yourself.The same principle applies. If we accept the premise that an individual owns themselves, than we recognize rape is wrong because it violates the self ownership principle by nullifying the individual's ability to consent to a sexual relationship. "Public accommodation" laws violate the self ownership principle by nullifying the individual's ability to consent to a commercial/business relationship, as the owner's store(his property) is an extension of himself.omfg... this scum bag is equating sexual rape with civil rights.. as if the right to access the public market is a rape of the public market... yeah no different than beating the shit out of someone and raping them... wow. Liberty is not the liberty to take liberty away from someone. Everyone has a right to buy products from our public markets. If you don't want to sell products to our public markets... don't.
In two sentences you contradict yourself. You say liberty is not the liberty to take. Than in the very next sentence you say people are entitled to the property(the products and labor) of others.
You need to work out these internal contradictions in your worldview.
It is selling your labor. Cakes don't bake themselves.
Over in another thread right now there is an idiot arguing that churches should be forced to have to hire gays if they want to work at them.
When does this bullshit stop? Every time we turn around now there is some new group wanting to be able to force businesses to serve them.
How do you EVER have a right to do business with me, rather than the other way around and me having the right to choose my customers?
Oh really? And that's why gays didn't just say "okay we joined the military so we have to obey their rules?"
