See we told you.. Mcdonalds is ordering 7K touch screen to replace cashiers

[Indeependent]

Then I misunderstood your point, I thought you were pointing out that if a profit company spent the money making a profit, they would also have spent the money on vendors just like the government does. That would have actually been a better point, you should have taken the credit.

The point was that the Free Market allows major contributors to manipulate the US out of tax money.
In fact, MNCs actually wrote off their moving expenses.

If anybody is allowing major contributors to manipulate the U.S. out of tax money, it is definitely not the free market. It IS rather an unscrupulous, dishonest, and self-serving government. It is THERE you should target your scorn and demands for reform.

Most politicians are patsy and many invest in the Free Market legislation they vote for.

 

[Foxfyre]

What about the economy that grew around IBM?
But of course IBM makes a lot of it's money from municipalities, states and the federal government.
Not bad for a non-civil entity.

What about it indeed. IBM saw a need and filled it. And it did not then nor does it now depend on government contracts to survive. Like Microsoft, IBM was so ahead of its time that it mushroomed into myriad splinter and copy cat and support industries. But both did it without depending on government to fund them or make it happen. It was pure human initiative, ingenuity, and the capitalist spirit that created both mega corporations that has provided a good living for millions of people around the world and improved all of our quality of life.

IBM totally depends on tax dollars to survive.
With the exception of hard drive technology IBM's innovation died in the 60s
Yes, I know they have millions of patents; most of these patents either never emerge into the market or are limited to their own mainframe e infrastructure which is dependent upon, drum roll, please...Tax Dollars.

Microsoft, or should I say Bill Gates, stole every piece of software, underpriced and sued MS's way to fame.
MS has been irrelevant for years; just updates to the same old bloated software on an annual basis.

IBM does NOT depend on tax dollars to survive. If IBM takes advantage of tax dollars dangled out there as bait, or is able to bribe politicians as every other big corporation tries to do, that is not the fault of private enterprise. It is the fault of a self-serving government that allows, encourages, and invites those corporations to profit from that.

And I don't care if Bill Gates is the devil incarnate and received his inspiration from the flying spaghetti monster who stole it from whomever, and I don't care if Microsoft closes up shop today. All of that is totally irrelevent to the incredible success that Microsoft has enjoyed or the hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of dollars it has poured into the world economy, or the way it has added to the quality of all of our lives. It does not take away from the many millionaires it has created or the millions of jobs it has provided for people who wanted those jobs.

You don't have to like the person and you don't have to like the product to be intellectually honest about the contributions those people and products have made for the world.

 

[Indeependent]

What about it indeed. IBM saw a need and filled it. And it did not then nor does it now depend on government contracts to survive. Like Microsoft, IBM was so ahead of its time that it mushroomed into myriad splinter and copy cat and support industries. But both did it without depending on government to fund them or make it happen. It was pure human initiative, ingenuity, and the capitalist spirit that created both mega corporations that has provided a good living for millions of people around the world and improved all of our quality of life.

IBM totally depends on tax dollars to survive.
With the exception of hard drive technology IBM's innovation died in the 60s
Yes, I know they have millions of patents; most of these patents either never emerge into the market or are limited to their own mainframe e infrastructure which is dependent upon, drum roll, please...Tax Dollars.

Microsoft, or should I say Bill Gates, stole every piece of software, underpriced and sued MS's way to fame.
MS has been irrelevant for years; just updates to the same old bloated software on an annual basis.

IBM does NOT depend on tax dollars to survive. If IBM takes advantage of tax dollars dangled out there as bait, or is able to bribe politicians as every other big corporation tries to do, that is not the fault of private enterprise. It is the fault of a self-serving government that allows, encourages, and invites those corporations to profit from that.

And I don't care if Bill Gates is the devil incarnate and received his inspiration from the flying spaghetti monster who stole it from whomever, and I don't care if Microsoft closes up shop today. All of that is totally irrelevent to the incredible success that Microsoft has enjoyed or the hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of dollars it has poured into the world economy, or the way it has added to the quality of all of our lives. It does not take away from the many millionaires it has created or the millions of jobs it has provided for people who wanted those jobs.

You don't have to like the person and you don't have to like the product to be intellectually honest about the contributions those people and products have made for the world.

You obviously do not know much about how IBM owns every level of government.
But this has nothing to do with automation.
Automation is good and burger flippers need only be paid what the market is willing to bear.
The problem is that Democrats, Republicans and MNCs have inundated our borders and labor wages have plummeted.

 

[flacaltenn]

Someone's got to explain to me how the leftists want to believe that CONSUMERS drive the economy and an economy can be healthy WITHOUT heavy innovation and disruptive tech advances.

At the same time that they DONT understand why a company like IBM would relocate to India BECAUSE the number of consumers there in Asia is a much better deal for them..

We are NOT the big Kahuna anymore.. The Global ReDistribution train has left the station.. And we better figure out that INNOVATION and NEW company creation is what saves our asses domestically.. Before we teach those Asian masses how to Innovate and Create..

 

[Foxfyre]

IBM totally depends on tax dollars to survive.
With the exception of hard drive technology IBM's innovation died in the 60s
Yes, I know they have millions of patents; most of these patents either never emerge into the market or are limited to their own mainframe e infrastructure which is dependent upon, drum roll, please...Tax Dollars.

Microsoft, or should I say Bill Gates, stole every piece of software, underpriced and sued MS's way to fame.
MS has been irrelevant for years; just updates to the same old bloated software on an annual basis.

IBM does NOT depend on tax dollars to survive. If IBM takes advantage of tax dollars dangled out there as bait, or is able to bribe politicians as every other big corporation tries to do, that is not the fault of private enterprise. It is the fault of a self-serving government that allows, encourages, and invites those corporations to profit from that.

And I don't care if Bill Gates is the devil incarnate and received his inspiration from the flying spaghetti monster who stole it from whomever, and I don't care if Microsoft closes up shop today. All of that is totally irrelevent to the incredible success that Microsoft has enjoyed or the hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of dollars it has poured into the world economy, or the way it has added to the quality of all of our lives. It does not take away from the many millionaires it has created or the millions of jobs it has provided for people who wanted those jobs.

You don't have to like the person and you don't have to like the product to be intellectually honest about the contributions those people and products have made for the world.

You obviously do not know much about how IBM owns every level of government.
But this has nothing to do with automation.
Automation is good and burger flippers need only be paid what the market is willing to bear.
The problem is that Democrats, Republicans and MNCs have inundated our borders and labor wages have plummeted.

I've done my homework on IBM as well as a number of other large corporations. And yes, IBM does provide a lot of IT expertise and products to government at all levels from local to federal. As do hundreds and hundreds of other corporations enjoy lucrative business with government. But IBM did not start out with government contracts and did not build its success with tax payers' money. IBM, for instance, is India's second largest private sector employer. If you have a quarrel with IBM contracts, it isn't IBM's fault that they got those contracts and there are few companies who would have turned down those contracts. Again look at government procurers who chose IBM for a reason. If there is fault, it is there.

You hate IBM because it does business with the government?

Why then hate McDonalds who doesn't?

 

[thanatos144]

The economy that grows up around military bases is purely the American entreprenourial spirit at work. The government doesn't do it. When the base goes away, the economy suffers because so much of it was built around the ready customers provided by the government employees. That is why closing bases is so painful and difficult to do for the elected representatives of those areas. How much healthier is a community that is created and grows through private sector initiatives alone? Such a community is much more likely to be self sustaining and will be hurt less by changes in government policy and initiatives.

As for those private contractors, yes, they are 'private companies' even though some exist purely to serve and service government installations, processes, and projects. Those are just as draining on the economy as all government operations are. The money still has to be drawn out of the private sector, with a goodly portion of it swallowed up by government bureaucracy, before the private contractor can be paid.

McDonalds, no matter how much it is despised and maligned, contributes to the economy and helps grow it. It does not depend on others to hand over money without receiving products and services of value in return.

What about the economy that grew around IBM?
But of course IBM makes a lot of it's money from municipalities, states and the federal government.
Not bad for a non-civil entity.

You da man! Exactly the point. Had the money stayed in the hands of the people who earned it running a business that makes a profit, they would have created a product and spent it in ways that had all the same effects as the military spending, but they would have themselves created value.

The military is like buying insurance. It is not a profit, but it protects us and our economy. We should just be downsizing it to perform only that role and not use it to force our will on the rest of the world like both parties endlessly do.

We are not a empiric country.

tapatalk post

 

[Indeependent]

IBM does NOT depend on tax dollars to survive. If IBM takes advantage of tax dollars dangled out there as bait, or is able to bribe politicians as every other big corporation tries to do, that is not the fault of private enterprise. It is the fault of a self-serving government that allows, encourages, and invites those corporations to profit from that.

And I don't care if Bill Gates is the devil incarnate and received his inspiration from the flying spaghetti monster who stole it from whomever, and I don't care if Microsoft closes up shop today. All of that is totally irrelevent to the incredible success that Microsoft has enjoyed or the hundreds of billions, if not trillions, of dollars it has poured into the world economy, or the way it has added to the quality of all of our lives. It does not take away from the many millionaires it has created or the millions of jobs it has provided for people who wanted those jobs.

You don't have to like the person and you don't have to like the product to be intellectually honest about the contributions those people and products have made for the world.

You obviously do not know much about how IBM owns every level of government.
But this has nothing to do with automation.
Automation is good and burger flippers need only be paid what the market is willing to bear.
The problem is that Democrats, Republicans and MNCs have inundated our borders and labor wages have plummeted.

I've done my homework on IBM as well as a number of other large corporations. And yes, IBM does provide a lot of IT expertise and products to government at all levels from local to federal. As do hundreds and hundreds of other corporations enjoy lucrative business with government. But IBM did not start out with government contracts and did not build its success with tax payers' money. IBM, for instance, is India's second largest private sector employer. If you have a quarrel with IBM contracts, it isn't IBM's fault that they got those contracts and there are few companies who would have turned down those contracts. Again look at government procurers who chose IBM for a reason. If there is fault, it is there.

You hate IBM because it does business with the government?

Why then hate McDonalds who doesn't?

I don't hate IBM at all.
I'm simply fed up with people who believe that there aren't thousand of corporations that require government contracts to remain in existence.
If IBM lost US tax money, it's stock would crash.
Same for GE and even thousands of small to medium sized companies.

 

[Foxfyre]

You obviously do not know much about how IBM owns every level of government.
But this has nothing to do with automation.
Automation is good and burger flippers need only be paid what the market is willing to bear.
The problem is that Democrats, Republicans and MNCs have inundated our borders and labor wages have plummeted.

I've done my homework on IBM as well as a number of other large corporations. And yes, IBM does provide a lot of IT expertise and products to government at all levels from local to federal. As do hundreds and hundreds of other corporations enjoy lucrative business with government. But IBM did not start out with government contracts and did not build its success with tax payers' money. IBM, for instance, is India's second largest private sector employer. If you have a quarrel with IBM contracts, it isn't IBM's fault that they got those contracts and there are few companies who would have turned down those contracts. Again look at government procurers who chose IBM for a reason. If there is fault, it is there.

You hate IBM because it does business with the government?

Why then hate McDonalds who doesn't?

I don't hate IBM at all.
I'm simply fed up with people who believe that there aren't thousand of corporations that require government contracts to remain in existence.
If IBM lost US tax money, it's stock would crash.
Same for GE and even thousands of small to medium sized companies.

That's one of the hazards of making oneself dependent on government. It is why a good government would not encourage that either from corporations or from private citizens. We have a bad government that does encourage that.

That is why I will defend McDonalds. Whatever you think of the wages they pay or the product they sell, it stands on its own and it adds to the economy without taking anything from it. McDonalds doesn't depend on a single tax dollar to prosper.

It is not the private sector commerce and industry or the free market system that the leftists should be condemning for the negatives in society. It should be squarely focused on an ever more bloated, growing, intrusive, authoritarian, meddling, and self-serving government that is gradually sucking the lifeblood from the economy and is forcing our society to go backward instead of forward.

 

[Indeependent]

Someone's got to explain to me how the leftists want to believe that CONSUMERS drive the economy and an economy can be healthy WITHOUT heavy innovation and disruptive tech advances.

At the same time that they DONT understand why a company like IBM would relocate to India BECAUSE the number of consumers there in Asia is a much better deal for them..

We are NOT the big Kahuna anymore.. The Global ReDistribution train has left the station.. And we better figure out that INNOVATION and NEW company creation is what saves our asses domestically.. Before we teach those Asian masses how to Innovate and Create..

You don't read too many financial publications.
CEOS have bandied about for years that they are moving to Asia to cut wages, expand hours and not have to provide benefits.
They are also exclaiming these days that the Asian consumer market is failing them.
They didn't figure out that paying low wages didn't exactly provide them with a strong consumer base.
And for the most part, the American consumer base has dropped to the Walmart level.

Yes, I actually read articles all the way through to the last paragraph where they say these things.

 

[Indeependent]

I've done my homework on IBM as well as a number of other large corporations. And yes, IBM does provide a lot of IT expertise and products to government at all levels from local to federal. As do hundreds and hundreds of other corporations enjoy lucrative business with government. But IBM did not start out with government contracts and did not build its success with tax payers' money. IBM, for instance, is India's second largest private sector employer. If you have a quarrel with IBM contracts, it isn't IBM's fault that they got those contracts and there are few companies who would have turned down those contracts. Again look at government procurers who chose IBM for a reason. If there is fault, it is there.

You hate IBM because it does business with the government?

Why then hate McDonalds who doesn't?

I don't hate IBM at all.
I'm simply fed up with people who believe that there aren't thousand of corporations that require government contracts to remain in existence.
If IBM lost US tax money, it's stock would crash.
Same for GE and even thousands of small to medium sized companies.

That's one of the hazards of making oneself dependent on government. It is why a good government would not encourage that either from corporations or from private citizens. We have a bad government that does encourage that.

That is why I will defend McDonalds. Whatever you think of the wages they pay or the product they sell, it stands on its own and it adds to the economy without taking anything from it. McDonalds doesn't depend on a single tax dollar to prosper.

It is not the private sector commerce and industry or the free market system that the leftists should be condemning for the negatives in society. It should be squarely focused on an ever more bloated, growing, intrusive, authoritarian, meddling, and self-serving government that is gradually sucking the lifeblood from the economy and is forcing our society to go backward instead of forward.

The average McDonald's store doesn't have or require a skilled labor force.
The truly educated managers and accountants don't hang out at the store.

 

[flacaltenn]

What about the economy that grew around IBM?
But of course IBM makes a lot of it's money from municipalities, states and the federal government.
Not bad for a non-civil entity.

What about it indeed. IBM saw a need and filled it. And it did not then nor does it now depend on government contracts to survive. Like Microsoft, IBM was so ahead of its time that it mushroomed into myriad splinter and copy cat and support industries. But both did it without depending on government to fund them or make it happen. It was pure human initiative, ingenuity, and the capitalist spirit that created both mega corporations that has provided a good living for millions of people around the world and improved all of our quality of life.

IBM totally depends on tax dollars to survive.
With the exception of hard drive technology IBM's innovation died in the 60s.
Yes, I know they have millions of patents; most of these patents either never emerge into the market or are limited to their own mainframe infrastructure which is dependent upon, drum roll, please...Tax Dollars.

Microsoft, or should I say Bill Gates, stole every piece of software, underpriced and sued MS's way to fame.
MS has been irrelevant for years; just updates to the same old bloated software on an annual basis.

Nope.. IBM doesn't depend much at all on tax dollars. MORE-SO these these days, but that still doesn't make you correct. MS IS becoming a burden on innovation while they pretend they control your desktop and every appliance that gets plugged into it. But still Android and Apple and Linux and Umbutu are threats to them and the products they can NEWLY create.

ALL THOSE bloated corporations survive BECAUSE OF REGULATION.. Regulation always favors the bloated that can influence and AFFORD to implement it. While it STIFLES new company creation..

If you look at new Public Offerings on the US Stock Market -- you will see that we are in a drought of innovation of Biblical proportions. THAT --- is the direct result of regulations and freezing the movement of RISK CAPITAL to the proper places..

I spent 20 years in Silicon Valley.. That miracle cannot happen again in the current US political climate. Many times involved in start-ups and venture capital technical evaluation.

All we get nowadays is Groupon and LinkedIn.. The country will NOT survive economically on those kinds of ventures..

 

[Foxfyre]

I don't hate IBM at all.
I'm simply fed up with people who believe that there aren't thousand of corporations that require government contracts to remain in existence.
If IBM lost US tax money, it's stock would crash.
Same for GE and even thousands of small to medium sized companies.

That's one of the hazards of making oneself dependent on government. It is why a good government would not encourage that either from corporations or from private citizens. We have a bad government that does encourage that.

That is why I will defend McDonalds. Whatever you think of the wages they pay or the product they sell, it stands on its own and it adds to the economy without taking anything from it. McDonalds doesn't depend on a single tax dollar to prosper.

It is not the private sector commerce and industry or the free market system that the leftists should be condemning for the negatives in society. It should be squarely focused on an ever more bloated, growing, intrusive, authoritarian, meddling, and self-serving government that is gradually sucking the lifeblood from the economy and is forcing our society to go backward instead of forward.

The average McDonald's store doesn't have or require a skilled labor force.
The truly educated managers and accountants don't hang out at the store.

???? And that is responsive to my point how?

 

[Indeependent]

What about it indeed. IBM saw a need and filled it. And it did not then nor does it now depend on government contracts to survive. Like Microsoft, IBM was so ahead of its time that it mushroomed into myriad splinter and copy cat and support industries. But both did it without depending on government to fund them or make it happen. It was pure human initiative, ingenuity, and the capitalist spirit that created both mega corporations that has provided a good living for millions of people around the world and improved all of our quality of life.

IBM totally depends on tax dollars to survive.
With the exception of hard drive technology IBM's innovation died in the 60s.
Yes, I know they have millions of patents; most of these patents either never emerge into the market or are limited to their own mainframe infrastructure which is dependent upon, drum roll, please...Tax Dollars.

Microsoft, or should I say Bill Gates, stole every piece of software, underpriced and sued MS's way to fame.
MS has been irrelevant for years; just updates to the same old bloated software on an annual basis.

Nope.. IBM doesn't depend much at all on tax dollars. MORE-SO these these days, but that still doesn't make you correct. MS IS becoming a burden on innovation while they pretend they control your desktop and every appliance that gets plugged into it. But still Android and Apple and Linux and Umbutu are threats to them and the products they can NEWLY create.

ALL THOSE bloated corporations survive BECAUSE OF REGULATION.. Regulation always favors the bloated that can influence and AFFORD to implement it. While it STIFLES new company creation..

If you look at new Public Offerings on the US Stock Market -- you will see that we are in a drought of innovation of Biblical proportions. THAT --- is the direct result of regulations and freezing the movement of RISK CAPITAL to the proper places..

I spent 20 years in Silicon Valley.. That miracle cannot happen again in the current US political climate. Many times involved in start-ups and venture capital technical evaluation.

All we get nowadays is Groupon and LinkedIn.. The country will NOT survive economically on those kinds of ventures..

If innovation cannot occur here again, why are businesses of sizes clamoring for H1-Bs?
In fact, if the current Immigration Reform passes, there will over 10 categories of professions that will allow 150,000 business visas each.
That's 1.5 million business visas a year.
And there are members of both parties, including Marco Rubio, who are in favor.

 

[Indeependent]

That's one of the hazards of making oneself dependent on government. It is why a good government would not encourage that either from corporations or from private citizens. We have a bad government that does encourage that.

That is why I will defend McDonalds. Whatever you think of the wages they pay or the product they sell, it stands on its own and it adds to the economy without taking anything from it. McDonalds doesn't depend on a single tax dollar to prosper.

It is not the private sector commerce and industry or the free market system that the leftists should be condemning for the negatives in society. It should be squarely focused on an ever more bloated, growing, intrusive, authoritarian, meddling, and self-serving government that is gradually sucking the lifeblood from the economy and is forcing our society to go backward instead of forward.

The average McDonald's store doesn't have or require a skilled labor force.
The truly educated managers and accountants don't hang out at the store.

???? And that is responsive to my point how?

I believe you were referring to the street value of a burger flipper.

 

[kaz]

I don't get your point.
IBM relocated to India even though it makes most of its profit from US taxpayers.

Then I misunderstood your point, I thought you were pointing out that if a profit company spent the money making a profit, they would also have spent the money on vendors just like the government does. That would have actually been a better point, you should have taken the credit.

The point was that the Free Market allows major contributors to manipulate the US out of tax money.
In fact, MNCs actually wrote off their moving expenses.

Now see, you should have taken credit. Not only was what I thought you said a better point, but it wasn't wrong like what you were trying to say.

As a taxpayer, I'm all for companies being efficient. Offshoring done for efficiency is good for our economy. It's when government drives them to do by manipulating costs that it's bad. And in GE management and as a management consultant, I proudly moved many IT processes to India. I'm a great American!

And there's nothing wrong with businesses deducting their expenses.

 

[kaz]

The point was that the Free Market allows major contributors to manipulate the US out of tax money.
In fact, MNCs actually wrote off their moving expenses.

If anybody is allowing major contributors to manipulate the U.S. out of tax money, it is definitely not the free market. It IS rather an unscrupulous, dishonest, and self-serving government. It is THERE you should target your scorn and demands for reform.

Most politicians are patsy and many invest in the Free Market legislation they vote for.

You still don't understand the difference between corporatism and free markets. They are not only not the same, they are the opposite. Corporatism is a variation of socialism. Free markets are where consumers, businesses and employees make their own decisions. Socialism is where government picks the winners. They aren't the same at all.

 

[kaz]

What about the economy that grew around IBM?
But of course IBM makes a lot of it's money from municipalities, states and the federal government.
Not bad for a non-civil entity.

You da man! Exactly the point. Had the money stayed in the hands of the people who earned it running a business that makes a profit, they would have created a product and spent it in ways that had all the same effects as the military spending, but they would have themselves created value.

The military is like buying insurance. It is not a profit, but it protects us and our economy. We should just be downsizing it to perform only that role and not use it to force our will on the rest of the world like both parties endlessly do.

We are not a empiric country.

tapatalk post

When we are picking governments across the globe, yeah, we are. And we need to stop.

 

[Indeependent]

Then I misunderstood your point, I thought you were pointing out that if a profit company spent the money making a profit, they would also have spent the money on vendors just like the government does. That would have actually been a better point, you should have taken the credit.

The point was that the Free Market allows major contributors to manipulate the US out of tax money.
In fact, MNCs actually wrote off their moving expenses.

Now see, you should have taken credit. Not only was what I thought you said a better point, but it wasn't wrong like what you were trying to say.

As a taxpayer, I'm all for companies being efficient. Offshoring done for efficiency is good for our economy. It's when government drives them to do by manipulating costs that it's bad. And in GE management and as a management consultant, I proudly moved many IT processes to India. I'm a great American!

And there's nothing wrong with businesses deducting their expenses.

There is something very wrong with deducting expenses when tens of thousands of Americans will be left without jobs.
And let's not forget that this off-shoring is a direct result of Gates, Ellison, etc... claim that all Americans are stupid and lazy, thus virtually eliminating their chances of ever getting another job.

Plus, Indians in IT are grossly incompetent and that's why a lot of their recent projects have failed.

So IBM takes US tax dollars and then complains that the very automation they developed is stifling their ability to make money.

And no, you are NOT a great American.
You simply took advantage do an opportunity and no one can blame you.

 

[Foxfyre]

The average McDonald's store doesn't have or require a skilled labor force.
The truly educated managers and accountants don't hang out at the store.

???? And that is responsive to my point how?

I believe you were referring to the street value of a burger flipper.

In other posts I did refer to the 'street value' of the LABOR of a burger flipper, yes. Which has absolutely nothing to do with the value of McDonalds to the overall economy except for the jobs that it offers those burger flippers who would otherwise likely be unemployed or working in other similarly unskilled labor jobs. I don't put a value on a person. But as a business owner, I do place a value on labor necessary to that business and all labor is not equal as to its value to the corporation. Labor is worth what it earns for the corporation meaning that labor must earn its own wages plus a reasonable profit for the employer. The skill necessary to earn that profit for the employer is what determines the value of that labor. It is as simple as that.

 

[Indeependent]

If anybody is allowing major contributors to manipulate the U.S. out of tax money, it is definitely not the free market. It IS rather an unscrupulous, dishonest, and self-serving government. It is THERE you should target your scorn and demands for reform.

Most politicians are patsy and many invest in the Free Market legislation they vote for.

You still don't understand the difference between corporatism and free markets. They are not only not the same, they are the opposite. Corporatism is a variation of socialism. Free markets are where consumers, businesses and employees make their own decisions. Socialism is where government picks the winners. They aren't the same at all.

I agree that Corporatism is a form of Socialism; and it doesn't work well for most people.