See we told you.. Mcdonalds is ordering 7K touch screen to replace cashiers

[Synthaholic]

There are two companies in the world that can do what Halliburton does, so if Halliburton never netted another U.S. government contract, it would prosper quite nicely.

We don't need a company. We have the military.




What critical and specialized services?





It doesn't. It can go back to doing things the way we did before the Republican privatization of our Armed Forces.

There isn't a thing that Halliburton can do for the U.S. military that the military couldn't do for themselves, if so tasked.




You have cerainly drank the Kool-Aid, young lady. Administrative costs for most government is around 6%. In the private sector it's 25%-30% and rising. Most of that is executive pay.

I don't want my tax dollars going toward a $25 million CEO salary. And $250,000 per year mercenaries from Blackwater.

And what does McDonald's contribute? It buys its infrastructure, supplies, and products from the private sector using money it earned to do so. It does not require the rest of us to finance that and therefore 100% boosts the economy instead of draining resources from it. It pays local, country, state, and federal taxes. Almost all McDonalds sponsor sports teams and give to charitable contributions in their respective communities. They provide a product people are willing to buy without coercing or requiring anybody to do so and without creating an artificial monopoly in order to sell their product. And they provide a lot of jobs to local people who want those jobs and they do so again without drainng a penny from the economy or requiring anybody else to finance that.

Yeah, but their product is crap and is undeniably sickening Americans. I know, their choice. But we are the ones who end up paying.

Another reason to support the ACA: makes dumbass 300-pounders take responsibility for their health costs and their daily junk food diet.

How does ACA do that? It better not deny insurance to people who are overweight. This whole debacle was suppose to provide coverage for pre-existing conditions.

The ACA does that by making them buy insurance.

Let their insurance company cover the cost of that amputated leg due to diabetes instead of the taxpayer, at some emergency room, for 5X the cost.

 

[flacaltenn]

IBM totally depends on tax dollars to survive.
With the exception of hard drive technology IBM's innovation died in the 60s.
Yes, I know they have millions of patents; most of these patents either never emerge into the market or are limited to their own mainframe infrastructure which is dependent upon, drum roll, please...Tax Dollars.

Microsoft, or should I say Bill Gates, stole every piece of software, underpriced and sued MS's way to fame.
MS has been irrelevant for years; just updates to the same old bloated software on an annual basis.

Nope.. IBM doesn't depend much at all on tax dollars. MORE-SO these these days, but that still doesn't make you correct. MS IS becoming a burden on innovation while they pretend they control your desktop and every appliance that gets plugged into it. But still Android and Apple and Linux and Umbutu are threats to them and the products they can NEWLY create.

ALL THOSE bloated corporations survive BECAUSE OF REGULATION.. Regulation always favors the bloated that can influence and AFFORD to implement it. While it STIFLES new company creation..

If you look at new Public Offerings on the US Stock Market -- you will see that we are in a drought of innovation of Biblical proportions. THAT --- is the direct result of regulations and freezing the movement of RISK CAPITAL to the proper places..

I spent 20 years in Silicon Valley.. That miracle cannot happen again in the current US political climate. Many times involved in start-ups and venture capital technical evaluation.

All we get nowadays is Groupon and LinkedIn.. The country will NOT survive economically on those kinds of ventures..

If innovation cannot occur here again, why are businesses of sizes clamoring for H1-Bs?
In fact, if the current Immigration Reform passes, there will over 10 categories of professions that will allow 150,000 business visas each.
That's 1.5 million business visas a year.
And there are members of both parties, including Marco Rubio, who are in favor.

I'm shocked you brought that up.. The answer is quite simple. The REST of the world gets the new rules of the game. THEIR kids are filling OUR universities for the Colleges of Engineering and the hard sciences.. If you're an alum --- just flip to glossy pages of your montly mag and look for any "american" names in those technical sections. The rest of the world understands the VALUE of innovation and technology.. OUR kids have all been fed fantasies about how Americans will need Biz degrees so they can run foreign manufacturing and engineering from 8,000 miles away.. Or have degrees in logistics for a non-existant American manufacturing -- so they can dictate to the stupid foreigners how to move material..

So they come here under STUDENT Visas in droves benefitting Universities that can't fill all their tech slots with YOUR kids. And when they're done, they are courted by industries that give them offers that look like Royal Treasuries to them. Why NOT do a couple years of apprentice in the States before you go back to Pakistan?

Hell -- I've been in the middle of the H1B fight. I saw the resumes come across my desk in Silicon Valley, and I've been sent to go recruit colleges for different corporations. Some of my best buds were H1B refugees who are largely now Chinese Technical Rock Stars back in Schenzhen..

If we DON'T start valuing the things that are gonna float this country and get OUR kids qualified and motivated -- there ain't just gonna be an INCOME gap.. There's gonna be a Feudal System recreated in one lifetime.

How much do care you about how many plumbers or journalists or writers or accountants or nurses that CHINA HAS?? (no offense to any of those).. But I'm sure you're interested in how many SCIENTISTS, ENGINEERS, COLLEGES, and SKILLED mechanics that they have.

That's what determines your economic standing in the world...

 

[Indeependent]

Nope.. IBM doesn't depend much at all on tax dollars. MORE-SO these these days, but that still doesn't make you correct. MS IS becoming a burden on innovation while they pretend they control your desktop and every appliance that gets plugged into it. But still Android and Apple and Linux and Umbutu are threats to them and the products they can NEWLY create.

ALL THOSE bloated corporations survive BECAUSE OF REGULATION.. Regulation always favors the bloated that can influence and AFFORD to implement it. While it STIFLES new company creation..

If you look at new Public Offerings on the US Stock Market -- you will see that we are in a drought of innovation of Biblical proportions. THAT --- is the direct result of regulations and freezing the movement of RISK CAPITAL to the proper places..

I spent 20 years in Silicon Valley.. That miracle cannot happen again in the current US political climate. Many times involved in start-ups and venture capital technical evaluation.

All we get nowadays is Groupon and LinkedIn.. The country will NOT survive economically on those kinds of ventures..

If innovation cannot occur here again, why are businesses of sizes clamoring for H1-Bs?
In fact, if the current Immigration Reform passes, there will over 10 categories of professions that will allow 150,000 business visas each.
That's 1.5 million business visas a year.
And there are members of both parties, including Marco Rubio, who are in favor.

I'm shocked you brought that up.. The answer is quite simple. The REST of the world gets the new rules of the game. THEIR kids are filling OUR universities for the Colleges of Engineering and the hard sciences.. If you're an alum --- just flip to glossy pages of your montly mag and look for any "american" names in those technical sections. The rest of the world understands the VALUE of innovation and technology.. OUR kids have all been told Americans will need Biz degrees so they can run foreign manufacturing and engineering from 8,000 miles away..

So they come here in droves benefitting Universities that can't fill the tech slots under STUDENT visas. And when they're done, they are courted by industries that give them offers that look like Royal Treasuries to them. Why NOT do a couple years of apprentice in the States before you go back to Pakistan?

Hell -- I've been in the middle of the H1B fight. I saw the resumes come across my desk in Silicon Valley, and I've been sent to go recruit colleges for different corporations.

If we DON'T start valuing the things that are gonna float this country and get OUR kids qualified and motivated -- there ain't just gonna be an INCOME gap.. There's gonna be a Feudal System recreated in one lifetime.

How much do care about how many plumbers or journalists or writers or accountants or nurses that CHINA HAS?? (no offense to any of those).. But I'm sure you're interested in how many SCIENTISTS, ENGINEERS, COLLEGES, and SKILLED mechanics that they have.

That's what determines your economic standing in the world...

They are here because their governments pay FULL TUITION.
And THEN we send them back and bring them back HERE as low wage business visas.
It's incredibly clever.

 

[HenryBHough]

Remember, American universities go out of their way to entice foreign students. Some of that is honest enough - they're rich enough to pay full price. But think of how life might differ had there been less effort spent on recruiting self-professed foreign-student assistance seeking Kenyan students.

 

[Synthaholic]

You still don't grasp the point. What you just said doesn't contradict me. That rw thanked you should give you a hint that your point was clueless.

You are arguing that government spending money has indirect benefits. Let's call those benefits "A."

What I am pointing out to you is that if business who earned the money still had it,

Uh...whut? Which business doesn't have the money they earned? And why?

Government takes pie, they don't create it. Money doesn't appear from nowhere. It is taken from someone else.

they would have in the pursuit of profit still generated all those benefits. They would have also generated a profit themselves. Let's call that "B."

How?

I just explained that. You're arguing that government spends money, and that creates jobs.

I'm arguing that jobs are created due to the functioning of government. Whether it's a titty bar outside a Marine base gate, or a sign company in DC printing Stop Abortion signs, or caterers in Madison, WI providing food for Governor Walker's event.

Businesses would have spent the same amount of money, and created the same amount of jobs. In addition, they also made a profit, which creates more jobs. That profit will be invested (and put back in the economy), reinvested (and spent) or distributed to shareholders who will reinvest it or spend it. It's simple. And you are only a socialist because you don't understand it. If you did, you'd realize that freedom comes from capitalism, not government.

That's crazy talk. No business spends as much as government.

 

[flacaltenn]

If innovation cannot occur here again, why are businesses of sizes clamoring for H1-Bs?
In fact, if the current Immigration Reform passes, there will over 10 categories of professions that will allow 150,000 business visas each.
That's 1.5 million business visas a year.
And there are members of both parties, including Marco Rubio, who are in favor.

I'm shocked you brought that up.. The answer is quite simple. The REST of the world gets the new rules of the game. THEIR kids are filling OUR universities for the Colleges of Engineering and the hard sciences.. If you're an alum --- just flip to glossy pages of your montly mag and look for any "american" names in those technical sections. The rest of the world understands the VALUE of innovation and technology.. OUR kids have all been told Americans will need Biz degrees so they can run foreign manufacturing and engineering from 8,000 miles away..

So they come here in droves benefitting Universities that can't fill the tech slots under STUDENT visas. And when they're done, they are courted by industries that give them offers that look like Royal Treasuries to them. Why NOT do a couple years of apprentice in the States before you go back to Pakistan?

Hell -- I've been in the middle of the H1B fight. I saw the resumes come across my desk in Silicon Valley, and I've been sent to go recruit colleges for different corporations.

If we DON'T start valuing the things that are gonna float this country and get OUR kids qualified and motivated -- there ain't just gonna be an INCOME gap.. There's gonna be a Feudal System recreated in one lifetime.

How much do care about how many plumbers or journalists or writers or accountants or nurses that CHINA HAS?? (no offense to any of those).. But I'm sure you're interested in how many SCIENTISTS, ENGINEERS, COLLEGES, and SKILLED mechanics that they have.

That's what determines your economic standing in the world...

They are here because their governments pay FULL TUITION.
And THEN we send them back and bring them back HERE as low wage business visas.
It's incredibly clever.

Actually, American tech companies are still kinda pissy about credentials. A native Pakistani engineering kid with a degree from Univ. of Bangalore doesn't really have a ticket to come here. But a Pakistani kid with a RECENT DEGREE FROM Georgia Tech -- well they'll bust buns to keep him here with an H1B Visa.

The foreign educated tech people are used IN-PLACE where they live.

We should stop fighting about the H1Bs and start concentrating on filling those College slots with OUR kids.. The alternatives are very very grim...

 

[Indeependent]

I'm shocked you brought that up.. The answer is quite simple. The REST of the world gets the new rules of the game. THEIR kids are filling OUR universities for the Colleges of Engineering and the hard sciences.. If you're an alum --- just flip to glossy pages of your montly mag and look for any "american" names in those technical sections. The rest of the world understands the VALUE of innovation and technology.. OUR kids have all been told Americans will need Biz degrees so they can run foreign manufacturing and engineering from 8,000 miles away..

So they come here in droves benefitting Universities that can't fill the tech slots under STUDENT visas. And when they're done, they are courted by industries that give them offers that look like Royal Treasuries to them. Why NOT do a couple years of apprentice in the States before you go back to Pakistan?

Hell -- I've been in the middle of the H1B fight. I saw the resumes come across my desk in Silicon Valley, and I've been sent to go recruit colleges for different corporations.

If we DON'T start valuing the things that are gonna float this country and get OUR kids qualified and motivated -- there ain't just gonna be an INCOME gap.. There's gonna be a Feudal System recreated in one lifetime.

How much do care about how many plumbers or journalists or writers or accountants or nurses that CHINA HAS?? (no offense to any of those).. But I'm sure you're interested in how many SCIENTISTS, ENGINEERS, COLLEGES, and SKILLED mechanics that they have.

That's what determines your economic standing in the world...

They are here because their governments pay FULL TUITION.
And THEN we send them back and bring them back HERE as low wage business visas.
It's incredibly clever.

Actually, American tech companies are still kinda pissy about credentials. A native Pakistani engineering kid with a degree from Univ. of Bangalore doesn't really have a ticket to come here. But a Pakistani kid with a RECENT DEGREE FROM Georgia Tech -- well they'll bust buns to keep him here with an H1B Visa.

The foreign educated tech people are used IN-PLACE where they live.

We should stop fighting about the H1Bs and start concentrating on filling those College slots with OUR kids.. The alternatives are very very grim...

I won't stop fighting H1-Bs because one category of cheap business visa leads to another.
If Wall Street gets away with one thing they go hog crazy all over the place.
And we have enough qualified unemployed engineers because of this visa nonsense.

 

[flacaltenn]

Remember, American universities go out of their way to entice foreign students. Some of that is honest enough - they're rich enough to pay full price. But think of how life might differ had there been less effort spent on recruiting self-professed foreign-student assistance seeking Kenyan students.

I know some of the foreign students MIGHT be foreign subsidized or cut deals with the US schools. Seems to me that ones I studied next to had a pattern. The wealthier and more influential their families were back home --- the more subsidized they were. Go figure eh? I had a roommate who's Dad was Mayor of one of the largest Central American cities. HE got a full ride from OUR Dept of State !!!!

The ones with the rich daddies don't NEED H1Bs. They start new companies HERE with Daddie's cash.. Separate US immigration policy... He who pays a bunch of taxes and employs people -- gets to stay.. And THAT it just fine with me. His Daddy is more RedWhiteBlue patriotic than most of our politicians..

 

[flacaltenn]

They are here because their governments pay FULL TUITION.
And THEN we send them back and bring them back HERE as low wage business visas.
It's incredibly clever.

Actually, American tech companies are still kinda pissy about credentials. A native Pakistani engineering kid with a degree from Univ. of Bangalore doesn't really have a ticket to come here. But a Pakistani kid with a RECENT DEGREE FROM Georgia Tech -- well they'll bust buns to keep him here with an H1B Visa.

The foreign educated tech people are used IN-PLACE where they live.

We should stop fighting about the H1Bs and start concentrating on filling those College slots with OUR kids.. The alternatives are very very grim...

I won't stop fighting H1-Bs because one category of cheap business visa leads to another.
If Wall Street gets away with one thing they go hog crazy all over the place.
And we have enough qualified unemployed engineers because of this visa nonsense.

Well good for you.. IEEE thanks you.. Older American engineers thank-you. I (kinda) thank-you.. But what's more important to me is the next generation facing AWFUL employment possibilities here in the US. We need to quit whining about not making tube socks and baseball bats here and start preparing to do the harder stuff..

 

[Indeependent]

Actually, American tech companies are still kinda pissy about credentials. A native Pakistani engineering kid with a degree from Univ. of Bangalore doesn't really have a ticket to come here. But a Pakistani kid with a RECENT DEGREE FROM Georgia Tech -- well they'll bust buns to keep him here with an H1B Visa.

The foreign educated tech people are used IN-PLACE where they live.

We should stop fighting about the H1Bs and start concentrating on filling those College slots with OUR kids.. The alternatives are very very grim...

I won't stop fighting H1-Bs because one category of cheap business visa leads to another.
If Wall Street gets away with one thing they go hog crazy all over the place.
And we have enough qualified unemployed engineers because of this visa nonsense.

Well good for you.. IEEE thanks you.. Older American engineers thank-you. I (kinda) thank-you.. But what's more important to me is the next generation facing AWFUL employment possibilities here in the US. We need to quit whining about not making tube socks and baseball bats here and start preparing to do the harder stuff..

What Wall Street has done to those who studied hard science and made those bastards wealthy makes me sick.
And the "Americans are lacking the skill-set" meme...

 

[flacaltenn]

Uh...whut? Which business doesn't have the money they earned? And why?

Government takes pie, they don't create it. Money doesn't appear from nowhere. It is taken from someone else.



I just explained that. You're arguing that government spends money, and that creates jobs.

I'm arguing that jobs are created due to the functioning of government. Whether it's a titty bar outside a Marine base gate, or a sign company in DC printing Stop Abortion signs, or caterers in Madison, WI providing food for Governor Walker's event.

Wow Synth.. I'm greatly relieved that our kids will HAVE that many GREAT choices of jobs and careers being doled out from the Central Planning Dept..

 

[flacaltenn]

I won't stop fighting H1-Bs because one category of cheap business visa leads to another.
If Wall Street gets away with one thing they go hog crazy all over the place.
And we have enough qualified unemployed engineers because of this visa nonsense.

Well good for you.. IEEE thanks you.. Older American engineers thank-you. I (kinda) thank-you.. But what's more important to me is the next generation facing AWFUL employment possibilities here in the US. We need to quit whining about not making tube socks and baseball bats here and start preparing to do the harder stuff..

What Wall Street has done to those who studied hard science and made those bastards wealthy makes me sick.
And the "Americans are lacking the skill-set" meme...

You can keep blaming the wrong party for the fact that American kids are not signing on for the hard stuff. Or the failure of education to induce them to do so.. Whining is irritating. And Wall Street cant even stop your whining.

Americans are INCREASINGLY "lacking the skill set".. Ask any Univ Prof with a crop of remedial science and math students. Wall Street is not responsible for those failures.

 

[RKMBrown]

I won't stop fighting H1-Bs because one category of cheap business visa leads to another.
If Wall Street gets away with one thing they go hog crazy all over the place.
And we have enough qualified unemployed engineers because of this visa nonsense.

Well good for you.. IEEE thanks you.. Older American engineers thank-you. I (kinda) thank-you.. But what's more important to me is the next generation facing AWFUL employment possibilities here in the US. We need to quit whining about not making tube socks and baseball bats here and start preparing to do the harder stuff..

What Wall Street has done to those who studied hard science and made those bastards wealthy makes me sick.
And the "Americans are lacking the skill-set" meme...

Yeah it's a load of crap... US Engineering companies went nuts with pay increases during the dot-com boom. What they are doing now is trying to reset the salary base for engineering to pre dot com pay scales. IBM is the biggest example. They off-shored over 300k US engineering jobs in 10years. Worse they buy up US start-ups left and right, blue wash them, then off shore them in a three year cycle thus eliminating US competition. What does the government do? NOTHING. From my experience it does not even matter if your development group is the most profitable group in the USA, they will take your product move it to china lay off the workers to eek out another 10%. Why? Simple, if you make 230% profit one year you have to make 250% profit the next year or you are laid off. Reduced or flat profit margin is seen as a poor job by the executive chain.. so they kill your job to make themselves look good while they sell the product you made for a couple years, then the executives quit with their hundred million in stock options.

 

[RKMBrown]

Well good for you.. IEEE thanks you.. Older American engineers thank-you. I (kinda) thank-you.. But what's more important to me is the next generation facing AWFUL employment possibilities here in the US. We need to quit whining about not making tube socks and baseball bats here and start preparing to do the harder stuff..

What Wall Street has done to those who studied hard science and made those bastards wealthy makes me sick.
And the "Americans are lacking the skill-set" meme...

You can keep blaming the wrong party for the fact that American kids are not signing on for the hard stuff. Or the failure of education to induce them to do so.. Whining is irritating. And Wall Street cant even stop your whining.

Americans are INCREASINGLY "lacking the skill set".. Ask any Univ Prof with a crop of remedial science and math students. Wall Street is not responsible for those failures.

Both parties are ignoring it. Lacking skill set my ass. I personally know hundreds of US engineers that tired of the BS H1b salary rape going on in US Engineering that they just switched careers. I'm not just talking about average talent I'm talking about the best of the best that have had it with the job market in this country at the larger engineering companies. It's a lot better at the small to medium companies. The government should do their job and break up large company monopolies... stop allowing them to gobble up all the start-ups.

I suppose that's why unions get started for so many professions.

 

[Indeependent]

Well good for you.. IEEE thanks you.. Older American engineers thank-you. I (kinda) thank-you.. But what's more important to me is the next generation facing AWFUL employment possibilities here in the US. We need to quit whining about not making tube socks and baseball bats here and start preparing to do the harder stuff..

What Wall Street has done to those who studied hard science and made those bastards wealthy makes me sick.
And the "Americans are lacking the skill-set" meme...

Yeah it's a load of crap... US Engineering companies went nuts with pay increases during the dot-com boom. What they are doing now is trying to reset the salary base for engineering to pre dot com pay scales. IBM is the biggest example. They off-shored over 300k US engineering jobs in 10years. Worse they buy up US start-ups left and right, blue wash them, then off shore them in a three year cycle thus eliminating US competition. What does the government do? NOTHING. From my experience it does not even matter if your development group is the most profitable group in the USA, they will take your product move it to china lay off the workers to eek out another 10%. Why? Simple, if you make 230% profit one year you have to make 250% profit the next year or you are laid off. Reduced or flat profit margin is seen as a poor job by the executive chain.. so they kill your job to make themselves look good while they sell the product you made for a couple years, then the executives quit with their hundred million in stock options.

Shhh...Certain forum members will call you a liar!

 

[flacaltenn]

What Wall Street has done to those who studied hard science and made those bastards wealthy makes me sick.
And the "Americans are lacking the skill-set" meme...

You can keep blaming the wrong party for the fact that American kids are not signing on for the hard stuff. Or the failure of education to induce them to do so.. Whining is irritating. And Wall Street cant even stop your whining.

Americans are INCREASINGLY "lacking the skill set".. Ask any Univ Prof with a crop of remedial science and math students. Wall Street is not responsible for those failures.

Both parties are ignoring it. Lacking skill set my ass. I personally know hundreds of US engineers that tired of the BS H1b salary rape going on in US Engineering that they just switched careers. I'm not just talking about average talent I'm talking about the best of the best that have had it with the job market in this country at the larger engineering companies. It's a lot better at the small to medium companies. The government should do their job and break up large company monopolies... stop allowing them to gobble up all the start-ups.

I suppose that's why unions get started for so many professions.

Maybe you didn't get your ass out there scouring College campuses for NEWLY qualified AMERICAN kids to come into the companies.. I did.. And LARGELY -- there's a 1/4 of what USED to come out of our colleges.. Except in areas like environmental engineering and stuff that is trendy like Ergonomic Design.

The LARGE corporations ARE the problem.. That's where the older tech folks got shafted. That's a separate problem. A dislocation caused by the fact, that older companies are now shy about having market dominance all over the world. They wont risk capital to compete with Asia and the rest of world. Spoiled and arthritic.

Also there's a been a MASSIVE shift away from components and hardware towards software and machine intelligence. And the older engineers that didn't dive into mgt. got screwed. We have no component supply chain LEFT in this country. Cant even manufacture Printed Circuit boards here anymore because of enviro regs. What do you expect?

Nothings gonna change here unless NEW and more aggressive corporations are encouraged to knock off the huge multi-nationals. And OUR chances to encourage that HERE are slim and none because of regulations FAVORING the huge guys..

It is gonna happen elsewhere -- because we are blaming everyone but ourselves. And our kids are gonna be crushed into jobs that don't matter worth a whit to the WORLD economy.

 

[kaz]

[O]ffshoring creates jobs. It lowers prices for consumers who have more to spend, it helps US companies compete better with international competitors and it creates more international markets for our products.

I see, so if we offshore every job in America we'll be just dandy.

You had a liberal moment there, RKM? Oh, broccoli is good for you? So if you eat nothing but broccoli you'd be immortal?

Actually, if you read the full argument I made, it said it's good when and only when it's done for economic efficiency. When it's done to avoid punitive taxes, regulations and mandates from government then it's bad. I'm having a hard time seeing every job being off-shored as economically efficient. In fact, all the jobs I ever off-shored did not eliminate every American job even for those jobs. As I said, they changed processes, and those processes include American jobs, just fewer of them. And they allowed businesses to to spend more money on profitable projects that grow the economy by lowering internal support costs that don't.

If you can figure out how to add to your question on how off-shoring "every job" an idea of how that can be done in an economically efficient manner so you're actually addressing the argument I actually made, let me know.

BTW, the logical fallacy you just committed is called "appeal to ridicule."

How about we start by offshoring your job first?

Bam! Now you're talking! You're asking the wrong guy this question. As a career manager and management consultant, from my first day on every job, the first job on my radar to eliminate was my own. BTW, I created far more jobs than I eliminated or off-shored. I just turned 50, and until the last four years when I owned my own business, I was never in my entire career in a job longer than two years and a month or two. I worked for the same company longer than that, including 11 years at GE, just not the same job.

The name for this fallacy BTW is pretty basic, "appeal to fear." The left love that one you may have noticed. Problem is, I'm not afraid. Nice try.

 

[kaz]

I just explained that. You're arguing that government spends money, and that creates jobs.

I'm arguing that jobs are created due to the functioning of government. Whether it's a titty bar outside a Marine base gate, or a sign company in DC printing Stop Abortion signs, or caterers in Madison, WI providing food for Governor Walker's event.

And I addressed that like three times now. The money spent on defense did not appear from nowhere, it was taking OUT of the economy. If it had been left in, it would have been spent economically efficiently in pursuit of a profit. And that would have entailed the earners of the money spending the same amount government did. So you'd have the same indirect benefit. However, your way, there is no direct benefit. The military itself did not make a profit.

Of course you're picking the military because that's something even a libertarian doesn't oppose. I want it smaller, but not gone. But the military still doesn't exist to create wealth, it exists to protect us. It is like insurance, to protect what we have. Seriously, you don't get this?

Businesses would have spent the same amount of money, and created the same amount of jobs. In addition, they also made a profit, which creates more jobs. That profit will be invested (and put back in the economy), reinvested (and spent) or distributed to shareholders who will reinvest it or spend it. It's simple. And you are only a socialist because you don't understand it. If you did, you'd realize that freedom comes from capitalism, not government.

That's crazy talk. No business spends as much as government.

All the money spent on government was taken out of the economy. That one company wouldn't spend the amount government does is irrelevant. In aggregate, all the money taken would have been spent in the private sector.

 

[RKMBrown]

[O]ffshoring creates jobs. It lowers prices for consumers who have more to spend, it helps US companies compete better with international competitors and it creates more international markets for our products.

I see, so if we offshore every job in America we'll be just dandy.

You had a liberal moment there, RKM? Oh, broccoli is good for you? So if you eat nothing but broccoli you'd be immortal?

Actually, if you read the full argument I made, it said it's good when and only when it's done for economic efficiency. When it's done to avoid punitive taxes, regulations and mandates from government then it's bad. I'm having a hard time seeing every job being off-shored as economically efficient. In fact, all the jobs I ever off-shored did not eliminate every American job even for those jobs. As I said, they changed processes, and those processes include American jobs, just fewer of them. And they allowed businesses to to spend more money on profitable projects that grow the economy by lowering internal support costs that don't.

If you can figure out how to add to your question on how off-shoring "every job" an idea of how that can be done in an economically efficient manner so you're actually addressing the argument I actually made, let me know.

BTW, the logical fallacy you just committed is called "appeal to ridicule."

How about we start by offshoring your job first?

Bam! Now you're talking! You're asking the wrong guy this question. As a career manager and management consultant, from my first day on every job, the first job on my radar to eliminate was my own. BTW, I created far more jobs than I eliminated or off-shored. I just turned 50, and until the last four years when I owned my own business, I was never in my entire career in a job longer than two years and a month or two. I worked for the same company longer than that, including 11 years at GE, just not the same job.

The name for this fallacy BTW is pretty basic, "appeal to fear." The left love that one you may have noticed. Problem is, I'm not afraid. Nice try.

So now you are trying to back track on your statement that "offshoring creates jobs" by patting yourself on the back and qualifying that offshoring is only good for the country when done for efficiency reasons and when the worker, who's job is offshored, gets a better job.

You think I'm supposed to be impressed at your management expertise to move jobs to cheap labor countries? WTF is wrong with you? Offshoring of 8million jobs in 2years, none of which were replaced was a good thing for the good ole USA? How much do they pay you to do this great service to America?

Appeal to fear? Says the jerk who appeals to using cheap foreign labor over American labor for "efficiency reasons." Seriously, how about we take every management consultant job, hell, every management position and move it to india. Damn paper pushing managers who think they are doing us a favor when they move work to china while we have 25% real unemployment.

As to the solution... that's pretty damn obvious. Break up the monopolies, move from income tax to sales tax and import duties and restrictions. This to promote local jobs and local production. What good does it do to have an anti-pollution regulation if all that does is move the exact same production to china where that regulation does not exist?

 

[kaz]

I see, so if we offshore every job in America we'll be just dandy.

You had a liberal moment there, RKM? Oh, broccoli is good for you? So if you eat nothing but broccoli you'd be immortal?

Actually, if you read the full argument I made, it said it's good when and only when it's done for economic efficiency. When it's done to avoid punitive taxes, regulations and mandates from government then it's bad. I'm having a hard time seeing every job being off-shored as economically efficient. In fact, all the jobs I ever off-shored did not eliminate every American job even for those jobs. As I said, they changed processes, and those processes include American jobs, just fewer of them. And they allowed businesses to to spend more money on profitable projects that grow the economy by lowering internal support costs that don't.

If you can figure out how to add to your question on how off-shoring "every job" an idea of how that can be done in an economically efficient manner so you're actually addressing the argument I actually made, let me know.

BTW, the logical fallacy you just committed is called "appeal to ridicule."

How about we start by offshoring your job first?

Bam! Now you're talking! You're asking the wrong guy this question. As a career manager and management consultant, from my first day on every job, the first job on my radar to eliminate was my own. BTW, I created far more jobs than I eliminated or off-shored. I just turned 50, and until the last four years when I owned my own business, I was never in my entire career in a job longer than two years and a month or two. I worked for the same company longer than that, including 11 years at GE, just not the same job.

The name for this fallacy BTW is pretty basic, "appeal to fear." The left love that one you may have noticed. Problem is, I'm not afraid. Nice try.

So now you are trying to back track on your statement that "offshoring creates jobs" by patting yourself on the back and qualifying that offshoring is only good for the country when done for efficiency reasons and when the worker, who's job is offshored, gets a better job.

Actually, I said that repeatedly. I'm backtracking on nothing. Look, I don't expect you to go back and read the whole discussion, which is why I told you what I was arguing. However, denying the rest of the discussion exists is bull and beneath you.

As for your rant, I don't care what you are or are not impressed by, I was telling you my experience in the subject.

As to the solution... that's pretty damn obvious. Break up the monopolies, move from income tax to sales tax and import duties and restrictions. This to promote local jobs and local production. What good does it do to have an anti-pollution regulation if all that does is move the exact same production to china where that regulation does not exist?

I also support the fair tax if that is what you are referring to by a sales tax.

I don't know what "monopolies" you are referring to.

I am not in favor of your arrogance of dictating standards to other countries.