See we told you.. Mcdonalds is ordering 7K touch screen to replace cashiers

[HenryBHough]

I will know the end is nigh when clerks in McDonald's start making accurate change without detailed instructions from the cash register.

 

[RKMBrown]

So I take it then, Kaz, that you don't know what a strawman is, you don't know what a monopoly is, and you are equally clueless as to what an OP is. Yet, you are a manager. No wonder this country is so screwed up.

I never said the things I said were a strawman. Hence my use of the word strawman.

I asked you what you meant by monopoly, and you're deflecting. My asking you who you mean by a monopoly does not imply I don't know what a monopoly is. It implies that I don't know what you meant when you used the term. So I asked you.

I don't know who you are referring to as a "monopoly" regarding off-shoring. Who are you talking about? No, I do not see any "monopolies" in off-shoring. Maybe if you would say what you meant, I would get it.

Obviously you have some personal connection to off-shoring, I've never seen you like this, you're usually pretty laid back.

Stating my interpretation of your statements in the clear context that they were given, as seen by me, is not strawman. If I wanted to cite your statements I would have quoted them appropriately by using quotes. Or by stating that you said this or that.

When you stated "I don't know what 'monopolies' you are referring to," I responded with "that would be monopolies affecting the OP." Given the OP is about the one of the largest fast food corporations in history, using (potentially) their monopoly power to replace an entire sector of labor this should have been sufficient, no? If not we could delve into many other monopolies that affect the OP such as government monopoly on wage controls, and other labor regulations. I would have also spread out into the oligopoly across all the other service chain restaurants, but figured we were already treading far enough away from the OP.

>> Obviously you have some personal connection to off-shoring, I've never seen you like this, you're usually pretty laid back.

You hit the nail on the head. I've known quite literally thousands of high paid American Engineers that were told by their employers to train their replacements in India and China, always with the promise of a better job to do right after... only to have the rug pulled out with MASSIVE LAYOFFS some months later here in the states while they hand keys to the jobs to the people they trained off shore and watch as their executives get paid hundreds of millions based on the "saved" payroll money. This while hundreds of H1B visa workers sit here training to take the jobs of Americans who are supposedly not educated to do the job they are training these people for. They come here get their training and then head back to help move the jobs even faster, or stay while the American workers that trained them are let go. This shit ticks me off to no end. I don't blame you, let's just say you touched on one of my nerves

FYI: offshoring is illegal in Germany and in China.

 

[flacaltenn]

I will know the end is nigh when clerks in McDonald's start making accurate change without detailed instructions from the cash register.

Hey.. That's not any more disturbing than seeing engineers and accountants that cant'
approximate a 4 number average without an Excel spreadsheet.. And then get THAT wrong 10% of the time.

 

[Indeependent]

So I take it then, Kaz, that you don't know what a strawman is, you don't know what a monopoly is, and you are equally clueless as to what an OP is. Yet, you are a manager. No wonder this country is so screwed up.

You never noticed that managers NEVER notice anything as long as they can blame it on the other person?

Your "problem" is that you are a hard science person capable of actually creating something.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Hey.. That's not any more disturbing than seeing engineers and accountants that cant'
approximate a 4 number average without an Excel spreadsheet.. And then get THAT wrong 10% of the time.

Forget making change. The registers at most fast food places have PICTURES of the food, because the counter help is too stupid to grasp the concept of "press the button reading fries for french fries."

Maybe 5% have the aptitude to write a simple Java script. Real programming? maybe 0.001%

 

[Againsheila]

Plenty of room for advancment.. A country that attempts to promote a service economy has no meaning in International commerce.. One that innovates and lands on the moon does..

It's the PEOPLE that need to be promoted.. Not the jobs..
Things are different in the 21st Century.. And we will become irrelevent if we dont adapt.

Again, where are they suppose to be promoted to??????

I've got a real optimistic view of that. If you give an inner city H.S. kid a Midi Synthesizer and an Audio Editing system -- there's a good chance they will make music, do the DJ thing or even compose. BECAUSE --- they are motivated to learn how to use it.

That's the same basic skills that are required to "train" or write scripts for industrial robots. Not much difference.. So no more lever pulling jobs at the factories, but MORE opportunities to make CUSTOM or special products that require someone to "teach" the robotics how to customize products for example.

It's good to optimistic for a change. I believe you could teach a Burger King register clerk to program or to run BioChemistry in a lab or to even run a 3D printer. 3D printing is a technology that allows a small biz to replicate stuff TODAY -- just like the replicators on the StarShip Enterprise.. ((I'm deadly serious, not tripping)) So today, you have the tools that only huge corporations had a decade ago.. It DEMOCRATIZES commerce.

We need folks to EXPLOIT all that.. To create and innovate.. Not just pull levers and flip burgers.. THAT'S how you promote people.

Ah, so you want to promote them out of any jobs at all and supposedly working for themselves? Let me know how that works out. About 1/2 of the people we serve free lunches to have their own business or already lost it. With laws as they stand, it's almost impossible for even the most ambitious amongst us to start their own business, let alone run it.

 

[Uncensored2008]

You never noticed that managers NEVER notice anything as long as they can blame it on the other person?

Your "problem" is that you are a hard science person capable of actually creating something.

Wait a minute, weren't you the one I ran into the other day who actually knew something about economics? That would generally indicate you are in an executive position. Are you not a manager?

 

[Indeependent]

Again, where are they suppose to be promoted to??????

I've got a real optimistic view of that. If you give an inner city H.S. kid a Midi Synthesizer and an Audio Editing system -- there's a good chance they will make music, do the DJ thing or even compose. BECAUSE --- they are motivated to learn how to use it.

That's the same basic skills that are required to "train" or write scripts for industrial robots. Not much difference.. So no more lever pulling jobs at the factories, but MORE opportunities to make CUSTOM or special products that require someone to "teach" the robotics how to customize products for example.

It's good to optimistic for a change. I believe you could teach a Burger King register clerk to program or to run BioChemistry in a lab or to even run a 3D printer. 3D printing is a technology that allows a small biz to replicate stuff TODAY -- just like the replicators on the StarShip Enterprise.. ((I'm deadly serious, not tripping)) So today, you have the tools that only huge corporations had a decade ago.. It DEMOCRATIZES commerce.

We need folks to EXPLOIT all that.. To create and innovate.. Not just pull levers and flip burgers.. THAT'S how you promote people.

Ah, so you want to promote them out of any jobs at all and supposedly working for themselves? Let me know how that works out. About 1/2 of the people we serve free lunches to have their own business or already lost it. With laws as they stand, it's almost impossible for even the most ambitious amongst us to start their own business, let alone run it.

The biggest obstacle today for starting a business is the business loans.
I am enthusiastic about total automation because the hundreds of components that are required broaden out into other industries or even new industries.

The problem today is that the REAL best and brightest who have to pay back their college tuition loans are NOT getting jobs and the truly brilliant have been replaced.

 

[RKMBrown]

I will know the end is nigh when clerks in McDonald's start making accurate change without detailed instructions from the cash register.

Hey.. That's not any more disturbing than seeing engineers and accountants that cant'
approximate a 4 number average without an Excel spreadsheet.. And then get THAT wrong 10% of the time.

No damn it, you need to use parenthesis to set the order of operations!! ggrrrr

 

[Indeependent]

You never noticed that managers NEVER notice anything as long as they can blame it on the other person?

Your "problem" is that you are a hard science person capable of actually creating something.

Wait a minute, weren't you the one I ran into the other day who actually knew something about economics? That would generally indicate you are in an executive position. Are you not a manager?

From the late 80s until 2004 I was VERY hands on because every time a new technology came out I was reading and practicing it and applying it to my business environment.
I was always way ahead of schedule in my deliverables so I was always selected to manage the team.
But my management style was by example, from personal interaction to quality of documentation, memos, code and database design.
It gave me great latitude to go to meetings and lunch with CIOs and Managing Directors.

By 2004 I was totally eliminated from software development because US companies no longer needed to interview Americans.

 

[flacaltenn]

Again, where are they suppose to be promoted to??????

I've got a real optimistic view of that. If you give an inner city H.S. kid a Midi Synthesizer and an Audio Editing system -- there's a good chance they will make music, do the DJ thing or even compose. BECAUSE --- they are motivated to learn how to use it.

That's the same basic skills that are required to "train" or write scripts for industrial robots. Not much difference.. So no more lever pulling jobs at the factories, but MORE opportunities to make CUSTOM or special products that require someone to "teach" the robotics how to customize products for example.

It's good to optimistic for a change. I believe you could teach a Burger King register clerk to program or to run BioChemistry in a lab or to even run a 3D printer. 3D printing is a technology that allows a small biz to replicate stuff TODAY -- just like the replicators on the StarShip Enterprise.. ((I'm deadly serious, not tripping)) So today, you have the tools that only huge corporations had a decade ago.. It DEMOCRATIZES commerce.

We need folks to EXPLOIT all that.. To create and innovate.. Not just pull levers and flip burgers.. THAT'S how you promote people.

Ah, so you want to promote them out of any jobs at all and supposedly working for themselves? Let me know how that works out. About 1/2 of the people we serve free lunches to have their own business or already lost it. With laws as they stand, it's almost impossible for even the most ambitious amongst us to start their own business, let alone run it.

It's an opportunity, not a mandate.. Flexible skills, curiousity about how things work, and innovation are the values for labor today. Whether they decide to be self-employed or not --- MINDLESS jobs are pretty much extinct.. You ARE in business for yourself really, even if someone else is paying your check.. That's the new reality..

Sorry that most of the jobs that allowed you to punch a clock and collect a check and not care about a career or your advancement are not gonna be around so much..

Before you hate me for being frank.. Go take a look at the story I just posted in the Current Events Forum about "Optimistic About Human Potential" -- see why I think this works better than you think...

 

[kaz]

When you stated "I don't know what 'monopolies' you are referring to," I responded with "that would be monopolies affecting the OP." Given the OP is about the one of the largest fast food corporations in history, using (potentially) their monopoly power to replace an entire sector of labor this should have been sufficient, no?

On the monopoly, OK, fair enough, I understand what you're saying. My confusion was that I thought you were talking about off-shoring, and McDonald's isn't off-shoring they are automating. You did reference the "OP" and maybe I should have gotten it, but I didn't. I get it now. I do not see McDonald's as a monopoly, but they are certainly a large player. And they earned what they have, nothing was given to them by force. But wow, there are so many places to eat, they compete every day.

As for off-shoring, given your personal history I understand your feelings. I mean that in no disrespectful way. When people are personally impacted by a situation, and by personally I mean not only yourself but people you know and care about, it's hard to not feel emotionally about it. Also, when I say off-shoring is good, I am referring to "net" for the economy. All change has winners and losers. I do recognize there are people who are very negatively impacted by it. It's not a panacea, I never thought no one was negatively impacted.

We disagreed on the gay marriage thing, but in other discussions I thought we were generally of a similar view. However, It's not fun for me to pursue this with the emotion, and I post for fun. We can banter on a different subject when we get the chance. I think you're a good guy. Now that I understand where you're coming from here, this certainly reinforces that view.

 

[RKMBrown]

So I take it then, Kaz, that you don't know what a strawman is, you don't know what a monopoly is, and you are equally clueless as to what an OP is. Yet, you are a manager. No wonder this country is so screwed up.

You never noticed that managers NEVER notice anything as long as they can blame it on the other person?

Your "problem" is that you are a hard science person capable of actually creating something.

Brain the size of a planet, and all they want me to do is serve french fries

 

[Againsheila]

I've got a real optimistic view of that. If you give an inner city H.S. kid a Midi Synthesizer and an Audio Editing system -- there's a good chance they will make music, do the DJ thing or even compose. BECAUSE --- they are motivated to learn how to use it.

That's the same basic skills that are required to "train" or write scripts for industrial robots. Not much difference.. So no more lever pulling jobs at the factories, but MORE opportunities to make CUSTOM or special products that require someone to "teach" the robotics how to customize products for example.

It's good to optimistic for a change. I believe you could teach a Burger King register clerk to program or to run BioChemistry in a lab or to even run a 3D printer. 3D printing is a technology that allows a small biz to replicate stuff TODAY -- just like the replicators on the StarShip Enterprise.. ((I'm deadly serious, not tripping)) So today, you have the tools that only huge corporations had a decade ago.. It DEMOCRATIZES commerce.

We need folks to EXPLOIT all that.. To create and innovate.. Not just pull levers and flip burgers.. THAT'S how you promote people.

Ah, so you want to promote them out of any jobs at all and supposedly working for themselves? Let me know how that works out. About 1/2 of the people we serve free lunches to have their own business or already lost it. With laws as they stand, it's almost impossible for even the most ambitious amongst us to start their own business, let alone run it.

It's an opportunity, not a mandate.. Flexible skills, curiousity about how things work, and innovation are the values for labor today. Whether they decide to be self-employed or not --- MINDLESS jobs are pretty much extinct.. You ARE in business for yourself really, even if someone else is paying your check.. That's the new reality..

Sorry that most of the jobs that allowed you to punch a clock and collect a check and not care about a career or your advancement are not gonna be around so much..

Before you hate me for being frank.. Go take a look at the story I just posted in the Current Events Forum about "Optimistic About Human Potential" -- see why I think this works better than you think...

Doesn't matter what you think, what matters is what is. Not everybody is cut out to run their own business. Does that mean they don't deserve to live? Because you seem to think they don't deserve to earn a living wage.

 

[Indeependent]

So I take it then, Kaz, that you don't know what a strawman is, you don't know what a monopoly is, and you are equally clueless as to what an OP is. Yet, you are a manager. No wonder this country is so screwed up.

You never noticed that managers NEVER notice anything as long as they can blame it on the other person?

Your "problem" is that you are a hard science person capable of actually creating something.

Brain the size of a planet, and all they want me to do is serve french fries

Well, it's your own fault for not being the manager who blamed himself and fired himself whilst keeping his own job as manager.

 

[RKMBrown]

On the monopoly, OK, fair enough, I understand what you're saying. My confusion was that I thought you were talking about off-shoring, and McDonald's isn't off-shoring they are automating. You did reference the "OP" and maybe I should have gotten it, but I didn't. I get it now. I do not see McDonald's as a monopoly, but they are certainly a large player. And they earned what they have, nothing was given to them by force. But wow, there are so many places to eat, they compete every day.

Actually McDonalds does operate under exclusive rights given to them by various governments over the use of their brand, restricted regional access to other fast food chains in various regions etc. As to your player reference, that is what I meant by the reference to oligopolies.

As for off-shoring, given your personal history I understand your feelings. I mean that in no disrespectful way. When people are personally impacted by a situation, and by personally I mean not only yourself but people you know and care about, it's hard to not feel emotionally about it. Also, when I say it's good, I am referring to "net" for the economy. All change has winners and losers. I do recognize there are people who are very negatively impacted by it. It's not a panacea, I never thought that.

We disagreed on the gay marriage thing, but in other discussions I thought we were generally of a similar view. However, It's not fun for me to pursue this with the emotion, and I post for fun. We can banter on a different subject when we get the chance.

Don't take my words personally... I'm just debating ...not mad at all. All my friends got better jobs after they left these scumy corporations anyway... screw corporate America I understood your point about some level of return in the form of lower costs... Don't worry about me I've never been out of work for more than 5min.

You know, btw, that it's a fun past time for Engineers to pick on managers?

 

[Foxfyre]

Top 50 German companies operating in the USA here and many of these are production facilities:
http://www.olafbohlke.com/public/Top50GermanCompaniesUSA.pdf

And the U.S. anti-dumping laws and associated taxes have resulted in China shifting more of its production to the USA
China offshores manufacturing to the U.S. - Apr. 24, 2012

The fact is we are in a global economy and we might as well deal with it. If we want more U.S. manufacturers to keep jobs here, we need to make it more attractive to those manufacturers to manufacture their products here instead of overseas. And that doesn't mean trying to punish those who off shore operations. All that does is force companies to leave the USA and incorporate elsewhere. The only way to do it is with a business climate that makes it profitable and desirable to do business here.

This only indirectly relates to McDonalds and automation. But when we make it unprofitable for McDonalds to hire all those entry level employees, many holding their very first paying job ever, we dry up the market for those jobs and encourage more automation. It's the time old concept of good intentions resulting in unintended bad consequences. The 'do gooders' need to be aware of those unintended bad consequences if they wish to be effective at doing good.

 

[kaz]

All my friends got better jobs after they left these scumy corporations anyway... screw corporate America I understood your point about some level of return in the form of lower costs... Don't worry about me I've never been out of work for more than 5min.

Glad to hear it! Obviously I don't know enough to comment on the specific companies involved, but I just wanted to say the reality is that we are in a global economy. The genie is not going back in the bottle. If all American companies stopped off-shoring, global competitors would stomp us. Then entire companies would struggle and go down, not just departments.

It wasn't my intention in the discussion to trivialize anyone going through it. But the bottom line reality is that when you went through it, it was terrible. But then you found greener pastures and things were better, everyone moved on. If the government gets involved and puts up barriers, it won't work, then we all end up in endless purgatory as everyone is struggling to get by and failing one by one. Free markets are always the answer. But no, that doesn't mean no pain. There will be pain in one way or another regardless of our choice. The question is not how do we prevent pain, it's how do we deal with it.

You know, btw, that it's a fun past time for Engineers to pick on managers?

Yes, I know that one very well...

 

[Indeependent]

All my friends got better jobs after they left these scumy corporations anyway... screw corporate America I understood your point about some level of return in the form of lower costs... Don't worry about me I've never been out of work for more than 5min.

Glad to hear it! Obviously I don't know enough to comment on the specific companies involved, but I just wanted to say the reality is that we are in a global economy. The genie is not going back in the bottle. If all American companies stopped off-shoring, global competitors would stomp us. Then entire companies would struggle and go down, not just departments.

It wasn't my intention in the discussion to trivialize anyone going through it. But the bottom line reality is that when you went through it, it was terrible. But then you found greener pastures and things were better, everyone moved on. If the government gets involved and puts up barriers, it won't work, then we all end up in endless persecutory as everyone is struggling to get by and failing one by one. Free markets are always the answer. But no, that doesn't mean no pain. There will be pain in one way or another regardless of our choice. The question is not how do we prevent pain, it's how do we deal with it.

You know, btw, that it's a fun past time for Engineers to pick on managers?

Yes, I know that one very well...

Then why are Germany and Japan doing so well?
The fact is that if we stopped this global nonsense, your portfolio would drop just a bit and cause you some anxiety.

 

[kaz]

All my friends got better jobs after they left these scumy corporations anyway... screw corporate America I understood your point about some level of return in the form of lower costs... Don't worry about me I've never been out of work for more than 5min.

Glad to hear it! Obviously I don't know enough to comment on the specific companies involved, but I just wanted to say the reality is that we are in a global economy. The genie is not going back in the bottle. If all American companies stopped off-shoring, global competitors would stomp us. Then entire companies would struggle and go down, not just departments.

It wasn't my intention in the discussion to trivialize anyone going through it. But the bottom line reality is that when you went through it, it was terrible. But then you found greener pastures and things were better, everyone moved on. If the government gets involved and puts up barriers, it won't work, then we all end up in endless persecutory as everyone is struggling to get by and failing one by one. Free markets are always the answer. But no, that doesn't mean no pain. There will be pain in one way or another regardless of our choice. The question is not how do we prevent pain, it's how do we deal with it.

You know, btw, that it's a fun past time for Engineers to pick on managers?

Yes, I know that one very well...

Then why are Germany and Japan doing so well?
The fact is that if we stopped this global nonsense, your portfolio would drop just a bit and cause you some anxiety.

You have to be more specific in your point about Germany and Japan