See we told you.. Mcdonalds is ordering 7K touch screen to replace cashiers

[Indeependent]

Glad to hear it! Obviously I don't know enough to comment on the specific companies involved, but I just wanted to say the reality is that we are in a global economy. The genie is not going back in the bottle. If all American companies stopped off-shoring, global competitors would stomp us. Then entire companies would struggle and go down, not just departments.

It wasn't my intention in the discussion to trivialize anyone going through it. But the bottom line reality is that when you went through it, it was terrible. But then you found greener pastures and things were better, everyone moved on. If the government gets involved and puts up barriers, it won't work, then we all end up in endless persecutory as everyone is struggling to get by and failing one by one. Free markets are always the answer. But no, that doesn't mean no pain. There will be pain in one way or another regardless of our choice. The question is not how do we prevent pain, it's how do we deal with it.



Yes, I know that one very well...

Then why are Germany and Japan doing so well?
The fact is that if we stopped this global nonsense, your portfolio would drop just a bit and cause you some anxiety.

You have to be more specific in your point about Germany and Japan

Both Germany and Japan protect their workforce from off-shoring and business visas and their economies are quite healthy.
In fact, the wealthy elite of Japan have been attempting to do to their workforce what the US has done and the Japan have had demonstrations.

In fact, China and India do the same even though India's economy is a reflection of our since their major income is servicing a smaller and smaller US consumer market.

The talk of the US collapsing if we stopped destroying our Blue and White collar force is nonsense and is meant to protect upper level wages and bonuses.

 

[Againsheila]

Then why are Germany and Japan doing so well?
The fact is that if we stopped this global nonsense, your portfolio would drop just a bit and cause you some anxiety.

You have to be more specific in your point about Germany and Japan

Both Germany and Japan protect their workforce from off-shoring and business visas and their economies are quite healthy.
In fact, the wealthy elite of Japan have been attempting to do to their workforce what the US has done and the Japan have had demonstrations.

In fact, China and India do the same even though India's economy is a reflection of our since their major income is servicing a smaller and smaller US consumer market.

The talk of the US collapsing if we stopped destroying our Blue and White collar force is nonsense and is meant to protect upper level wages and bonuses.

It's pretty bad when your own government not only encourages companies to send your job overseas by giving them tax incentives, but brings in immigrants, both legal and illegal to take the jobs that are left, thereby keeping our wages artificially low and our unemployment artificially high.

 

[RKMBrown]

You have to be more specific in your point about Germany and Japan

Both Germany and Japan protect their workforce from off-shoring and business visas and their economies are quite healthy.
In fact, the wealthy elite of Japan have been attempting to do to their workforce what the US has done and the Japan have had demonstrations.

In fact, China and India do the same even though India's economy is a reflection of our since their major income is servicing a smaller and smaller US consumer market.

The talk of the US collapsing if we stopped destroying our Blue and White collar force is nonsense and is meant to protect upper level wages and bonuses.

It's pretty bad when your own government not only encourages companies to send your job overseas by giving them tax incentives, but brings in immigrants, both legal and illegal to take the jobs that are left, thereby keeping our wages artificially low and our unemployment artificially high.

Ding ding ...

All the while they take our tax dollars and spend them in ways designed to compete with the people they took the money from. The biggest enemy of the US worker is the US Government.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Both Germany and Japan protect their workforce from off-shoring and business visas and their economies are quite healthy.

Both those claims are false.

Neither Germany nor Japan have successfully protected domestic production.

Japan particularly has engaged in massive outsourcing, as labor costs have risen.

http://www.meti.go.jp/english/report/downloadfiles/1-2e.pdf

Germany too has engaged in outsourcing to Eastern Europe since the fall of the Soviet Union.

{They find that, in Germany, the extent of outsourcing among manufacturing industries is higher than among service industries}

The Extent and Impact of Outsourcing: Evidence from Germany - Research Publications - St. Louis Fed

Further, to call the Japanese economy "healthy" is laughable at best. This is a terrible time to do an analysis on Japan due to the havoc from the Tsunami - still, Japan has not had a healthy economy since the 1990's.

In fact, the wealthy elite of Japan have been attempting to do to their workforce what the US has done and the Japan have had demonstrations.

In fact, China and India do the same even though India's economy is a reflection of our since their major income is servicing a smaller and smaller US consumer market.

Excuse me?

The consumer market in the USA is growing at about 2% a year (which is dismal, but Obama is running things)

The talk of the US collapsing if we stopped destroying our Blue and White collar force is nonsense and is meant to protect upper level wages and bonuses.

The days of button pushers making high wages are over - and will never come back. The myth that white collar jobs are declining is propaganda.

We are in a global economy - it is a matter of fact. The USA has significant assets and can (continue to) dominate this economy - BUT it must be through innovation and creativity. The idea that a union slob with a 6th grade education can push a button on a press for 8 hours a day and live a middle class life is over.

Get a degree in engineering, IT, or business - and you're golden.

Switching gears a bit; we stand on the brink of a revolution that will dwarf even the digital revolution - this is of course the biotechnology revolution. America DOMINATES this field and is poised to reap the economic rewards of these innovations. Of course we have Obama, who will seek to sink the American dominance and socialize biotech under his fascist care fiasco - but IF the leftists are driven back, the USA will be in fine shape for many decades as biotech advances.

 

[kaz]

Then why are Germany and Japan doing so well?
The fact is that if we stopped this global nonsense, your portfolio would drop just a bit and cause you some anxiety.

You have to be more specific in your point about Germany and Japan

Both Germany and Japan protect their workforce from off-shoring and business visas and their economies are quite healthy.
In fact, the wealthy elite of Japan have been attempting to do to their workforce what the US has done and the Japan have had demonstrations.

In fact, China and India do the same even though India's economy is a reflection of our since their major income is servicing a smaller and smaller US consumer market.

The talk of the US collapsing if we stopped destroying our Blue and White collar force is nonsense and is meant to protect upper level wages and bonuses.

Germany and Japan both have extensive out of country operations. Japan in particular has extensive offs-horing of operations. German offshoring tends to be more limited because of language. You might want to Google "McKinsey offshoring" if you're actually interested in the subject. They have a variety of articles, I found them very interesting. I worked for Booz Allen, one of their competitors, but they are an excellent management strategy company.

You're throwing out a bunch of factoids which don't reflect the whole story, are limited in time frames and carry heavy assumptions and vague conclusions. I have no interest in getting into a point by point on that unless you make a more well formed argument and hypothesis.

 

[kaz]

You have to be more specific in your point about Germany and Japan

Both Germany and Japan protect their workforce from off-shoring and business visas and their economies are quite healthy.
In fact, the wealthy elite of Japan have been attempting to do to their workforce what the US has done and the Japan have had demonstrations.

In fact, China and India do the same even though India's economy is a reflection of our since their major income is servicing a smaller and smaller US consumer market.

The talk of the US collapsing if we stopped destroying our Blue and White collar force is nonsense and is meant to protect upper level wages and bonuses.

It's pretty bad when your own government not only encourages companies to send your job overseas by giving them tax incentives, but brings in immigrants, both legal and illegal to take the jobs that are left, thereby keeping our wages artificially low and our unemployment artificially high.

How do they "encourage" it? Is this the thing again where they allow businesses do deduct their expenses?

What's bad is when government is involved at all. Everything politicians do is for their own interest and to expand their own power. But since you're not a government loving liberal, I don't know why I'm telling you that...

 

[kaz]

The biggest enemy of the US worker is the US Government.

That, is the bottom line. Free markets solve all these problems.

 

[RKMBrown]

Both Germany and Japan protect their workforce from off-shoring and business visas and their economies are quite healthy.

Both those claims are false.

Neither Germany nor Japan have successfully protected domestic production.

Japan particularly has engaged in massive outsourcing, as labor costs have risen.

http://www.meti.go.jp/english/report/downloadfiles/1-2e.pdf

Germany too has engaged in outsourcing to Eastern Europe since the fall of the Soviet Union.

{They find that, in Germany, the extent of outsourcing among manufacturing industries is higher than among service industries}

The Extent and Impact of Outsourcing: Evidence from Germany - Research Publications - St. Louis Fed

Further, to call the Japanese economy "healthy" is laughable at best. This is a terrible time to do an analysis on Japan due to the havoc from the Tsunami - still, Japan has not had a healthy economy since the 1990's.

In fact, the wealthy elite of Japan have been attempting to do to their workforce what the US has done and the Japan have had demonstrations.

In fact, China and India do the same even though India's economy is a reflection of our since their major income is servicing a smaller and smaller US consumer market.

Excuse me?

The consumer market in the USA is growing at about 2% a year (which is dismal, but Obama is running things)

The talk of the US collapsing if we stopped destroying our Blue and White collar force is nonsense and is meant to protect upper level wages and bonuses.

The days of button pushers making high wages are over - and will never come back. The myth that white collar jobs are declining is propaganda.

We are in a global economy - it is a matter of fact. The USA has significant assets and can (continue to) dominate this economy - BUT it must be through innovation and creativity. The idea that a union slob with a 6th grade education can push a button on a press for 8 hours a day and live a middle class life is over.

Get a degree in engineering, IT, or business - and you're golden.

Switching gears a bit; we stand on the brink of a revolution that will dwarf even the digital revolution - this is of course the biotechnology revolution. America DOMINATES this field and is poised to reap the economic rewards of these innovations. Of course we have Obama, who will seek to sink the American dominance and socialize biotech under his fascist care fiasco - but IF the leftists are driven back, the USA will be in fine shape for many decades as biotech advances.

You are confusing outsourcing and offshoring.

Engineering is only golden for the young. Once you know what you are doing and can demand a professional salary ... there is a huge target on your back at most corporations. Why should they pay you professional wages when they can hire half a dozen Chinese or two fresh-outs for the same pay. Engineers at big companies are pushed up the ranks to a certain level then pushed out to be replaced with rookies if they don't switch to sales or management. An Engineer with 5years experience is golden, an Engineer with 15years experience is past retirement. Course you can go out on your own or find a small startup that values your actual skill over statistics made up by accountants to justify firing everyone over 40. Or you could start in a government job where no one gets fired based on age.

 

[flacaltenn]

Then why are Germany and Japan doing so well?
The fact is that if we stopped this global nonsense, your portfolio would drop just a bit and cause you some anxiety.

You have to be more specific in your point about Germany and Japan

Both Germany and Japan protect their workforce from off-shoring and business visas and their economies are quite healthy.
In fact, the wealthy elite of Japan have been attempting to do to their workforce what the US has done and the Japan have had demonstrations.

In fact, China and India do the same even though India's economy is a reflection of our since their major income is servicing a smaller and smaller US consumer market.

The talk of the US collapsing if we stopped destroying our Blue and White collar force is nonsense and is meant to protect upper level wages and bonuses.

I know UnCensored has already corrected this.. It kinda shows how folks are not observing the WHOLE situation. Only the parts that support their beliefs.. PROBABLY (i dont know exactly) about 40% of American car workers work for Japanese or German owned companies. That seem fair..

And that's not counting the US employees of companies like Siemens, or Sony.
Sony in fact DOMINATES most of the media outside of news orgs in this country. And employs a huge percentage in the music/film biz

All that's not the SAME as being in China for the TEMPORARY cheap labor boost. But it IS the endgame of Global Trade. And it seems pretty fair when you consider Germany and Japan and most of the rest of the G20 countries..

 

[flacaltenn]

Ah, so you want to promote them out of any jobs at all and supposedly working for themselves? Let me know how that works out. About 1/2 of the people we serve free lunches to have their own business or already lost it. With laws as they stand, it's almost impossible for even the most ambitious amongst us to start their own business, let alone run it.

It's an opportunity, not a mandate.. Flexible skills, curiousity about how things work, and innovation are the values for labor today. Whether they decide to be self-employed or not --- MINDLESS jobs are pretty much extinct.. You ARE in business for yourself really, even if someone else is paying your check.. That's the new reality..

Sorry that most of the jobs that allowed you to punch a clock and collect a check and not care about a career or your advancement are not gonna be around so much..

Before you hate me for being frank.. Go take a look at the story I just posted in the Current Events Forum about "Optimistic About Human Potential" -- see why I think this works better than you think...

Doesn't matter what you think, what matters is what is. Not everybody is cut out to run their own business. Does that mean they don't deserve to live? Because you seem to think they don't deserve to earn a living wage.

There is no compassion or brilliance is a plan to promote the wages of menial jobs so that you can make folks "comfortable" in them. Those jobs are endangered by automation (the topic of this thread) and do not represent the potential that folks need for survival in a modern economy.

If there's a cycle of poverty because of perverse incentives to subsidize. It will be the same effect that "a living wage" propagates. You need to think about the "unintended consequences" of such a move.

If a failing inner city H.S. kid can be "comfortable" in a burger job --- how many MORE are you gonna get BAILING on even a TOKEN education if they are guaranteed a living wage WITHOUT a H.S. diploma? Guarandamteed the drop-out rate will rise. And that's the OPPOSITE direction of what this country needs to survive right now.

Seriously --- I KNOW the YOU walk the walk. You are engaged in the process of lifting folks up. You really should go read the thread in Current Events on "Optimistic about Human Potential".. Its a story you can identify with...

 

[Indeependent]

Germany & Japan practice Comparative Advantage, not Tsumani Across the Ocean Economics.
Outsourcing and off-shoring are fine when done intelligently as the aforementioned are doing.
The US off-shores WITHOUT discrimination.

Nice try.

 

[Uncensored2008]

You are confusing outsourcing and offshoring.

Oh, I doubt that.

Engineering is only golden for the young. Once you know what you are doing and can demand a professional salary ... there is a huge target on your back at most corporations.

Nonsense.

Senior Engineers are the most difficult positions to fill. You might be able to backstop production or design with Jr. Engineers from India, but for the Senior positions where intimate knowledge of the product, production and business goals is required, outsourcing, both domestically and internationally is not practical. Most larger corporations that went full tilt with outsourcing are and have been returning the positions to in-house.

Why should they pay you professional wages when they can hire half a dozen Chinese or two fresh-outs for the same pay.

Results.

You've never worked with Chinese concerns - there is no such thing as "quality" design. Creativity is completely absent. IF you seek cookie cutter repetition, China works. If you seek innovation and creative design, China is a disaster.

The term of this decade is "right sourcing," determining the proper combination of in-house talent and outsourced labor. Even in Engineering a certain amount of work makes sense for outsourcing. And as you said, this may or may not be be offshore. We outsource large compression mold design, the mold maker had better skill sets. But this is a domestic company, not offshore. We tried Chinese - a complete disaster.

Engineers at big companies are pushed up the ranks to a certain level then pushed out to be replaced with rookies if they don't switch to sales or management. An Engineer with 5years experience is golden, an Engineer with 15years experience is past retirement.

Nonsense - and an example of why anecdotal evidence is not valid.

Course you can go out on your own or find a small startup that values your actual skill over statistics made up by accountants to justify firing everyone over 40. Or you could start in a government job where no one gets fired based on age.

No idea where you had a bad experience, but groups like Boeing and Raytheon are project driven and have been letting engineers go at the end of projects since the 1950's.

 

[Indeependent]

There are plenty of incredibly qualified unemployed engineers.
Why? Because most companies don't want brilliance, they want a good quarterly return.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Germany & Japan practice Comparative Advantage, not Tsumani Across the Ocean Economics.
Outsourcing and off-shoring are fine when done intelligently as the aforementioned are doing.
The US off-shores WITHOUT discrimination.

Nice try.

That is a fantasy.

There is very little in common between the German and Japanese economies. Neither one practice a command economy, so to claim that the respective governments do anything at all regarding off-shoring is absurd. Japan introduced protectionist tariffs in the 1990's to punish off-shore outsourcing, but the result was a drag on the over-all economy. These policies were reversed in the 2005-06 time frame. Japan outsources HUGE portions of production. Sony products are built in Singapore, Malaysia, Korea, etc. with very little production in Japan. The pressures on Japan are identical to those that afflicted the USA, high labor costs, strict environmental regulations, and increasing global competition. Japan had to adapt or fail.

Germany is a very different situation, with a VERY different economy. As part of the European Union, access to German markets by member nations is built into the charter. Where Japan is homogenous and isolated, Germany is already embroiled in multinational encumbrance. Germany also is a more intellectual economy, with less labor and more design elements. However, that talent pool from the Baltic's has been far too great a temptation to German industry, and significant outsourcing has and continues to occur.

There is nothing even faintly Ricardian about the German economy, which is an anachronistic theory supplanted by Marxism centuries ago. Smith and Ricardo are important figures in the history of the field of economics, but both are historical figures, neither represent a current school of thought.

 

[flacaltenn]

There are plenty of incredibly qualified unemployed engineers.
Why? Because most companies don't want brilliance, they want a good quarterly return.

That observation MAYBE TRUE in some specialties BECAUSE of the manufacturing bleed we've seen. I've got DOZENS of Silicon Valley buds that are already retired or displaced from the Semi Industry and certain Hardware intensive businesses..

Fact is --- if you haven't noticed --- we need to make a lot LESS consumer crap today than in the 80s.. No answering machines, no vid recorders, no radios, calculators, etc.. That means also that business no longer needs Fax machines, AV equipment, cameras, and a lot of other stuff.

But it's NOT by age. At least under 60 --- and especially if you have a BROAD engineering background.. By PROMOTING the idea that Engineering is a dead end -- you're gonna do more damage to the fields that CANNOT get enough folks employed TODAY and TOMORROW. It's VERY bright for artifical intelligience, robotics, signal and image processing, displays, power systems, and biomedical engineering.

 

[Indeependent]

Germany & Japan practice Comparative Advantage, not Tsumani Across the Ocean Economics.
Outsourcing and off-shoring are fine when done intelligently as the aforementioned are doing.
The US off-shores WITHOUT discrimination.

Nice try.

That is a fantasy.

There is very little in common between the German and Japanese economies. Neither one practice a command economy, so to claim that the respective governments do anything at all regarding off-shoring is absurd. Japan introduced protectionist tariffs in the 1990's to punish off-shore outsourcing, but the result was a drag on the over-all economy. These policies were reversed in the 2005-06 time frame. Japan outsources HUGE portions of production. Sony products are built in Singapore, Malaysia, Korea, etc. with very little production in Japan. The pressures on Japan are identical to those that afflicted the USA, high labor costs, strict environmental regulations, and increasing global competition. Japan had to adapt or fail.

Germany is a very different situation, with a VERY different economy. As part of the European Union, access to German markets by member nations is built into the charter. Where Japan is homogenous and isolated, Germany is already embroiled in multinational encumbrance. Germany also is a more intellectual economy, with less labor and more design elements. However, that talent pool from the Baltic's has been far too great a temptation to German industry, and significant outsourcing has and continues to occur.

There is nothing even faintly Ricardian about the German economy, which is an anachronistic theory supplanted by Marxism centuries ago. Smith and Ricardo are important figures in the history of the field of economics, but both are historical figures, neither represent a current school of thought.

Before I respond please indicate EXACTLY where I even INFERRED a Command economy.

And just exactly how is Japan and Germany producing excellent quality products Marxist?

Never mind the fact that Marxism includes Capitalism as one of it's phases.

 

[flacaltenn]

There are plenty of incredibly qualified unemployed engineers.
Why? Because most companies don't want brilliance, they want a good quarterly return.

That observation MAYBE TRUE in some specialties BECAUSE of the manufacturing bleed we've seen. I've got DOZENS of Silicon Valley buds that are already retired or displaced from the Semi Industry and certain Hardware intensive businesses..

Fact is --- if you haven't noticed --- we need to make a lot LESS consumer crap today than in the 80s.. No answering machines, no vid recorders, no radios, calculators, etc.. That means also that business no longer needs Fax machines, AV equipment, cameras, and a lot of other stuff.

Gotta start thinking about WHAT'S CHANGED --- before you start assigning blame..

But it's NOT by age in the remaining areas.. At least under 60 --- and especially if you have a BROAD engineering background.. By PROMOTING the idea that Engineering is a dead end -- you're gonna do more damage to the fields that CANNOT get enough folks employed TODAY and TOMORROW. It's VERY bright for artifical intelligience, robotics, signal and image processing, displays, power systems, and biomedical engineering --- to mention a few.

 

[Uncensored2008]

There are plenty of incredibly qualified unemployed engineers.
Why? Because most companies don't want brilliance, they want a good quarterly return.

While Apple is unquestionably the most evil corporation in the world, they are also the most profitable.

And what is the basis of that profit? Is it not brilliance - at least in the Marketing department?

Brilliance is the path to a good quarterly return.

 

[Indeependent]

There are plenty of incredibly qualified unemployed engineers.
Why? Because most companies don't want brilliance, they want a good quarterly return.

While Apple is unquestionably the most evil corporation in the world, they are also the most profitable.

And what is the basis of that profit? Is it not brilliance - at least in the Marketing department?

Brilliance is the path to a good quarterly return.

Watch a Microsoft Keynote and the audience is filled with Indians.

Watch an Apple Keynote and the audience is filled mostly with White Middle-Aged Engineers.

Guess which company can back up it's Marketing Department with actual innovative products?

 

[Indeependent]

There are plenty of incredibly qualified unemployed engineers.
Why? Because most companies don't want brilliance, they want a good quarterly return.

That observation MAYBE TRUE in some specialties BECAUSE of the manufacturing bleed we've seen. I've got DOZENS of Silicon Valley buds that are already retired or displaced from the Semi Industry and certain Hardware intensive businesses..

Fact is --- if you haven't noticed --- we need to make a lot LESS consumer crap today than in the 80s.. No answering machines, no vid recorders, no radios, calculators, etc.. That means also that business no longer needs Fax machines, AV equipment, cameras, and a lot of other stuff.

Gotta start thinking about WHAT'S CHANGED --- before you start assigning blame..

But it's NOT by age in the remaining areas.. At least under 60 --- and especially if you have a BROAD engineering background.. By PROMOTING the idea that Engineering is a dead end -- you're gonna do more damage to the fields that CANNOT get enough folks employed TODAY and TOMORROW. It's VERY bright for artifical intelligience, robotics, signal and image processing, displays, power systems, and biomedical engineering --- to mention a few.

The bleeding started in the mid 2000s under GW.
Nobody bothered to notice until EVERYBODY was hot by Sep 2008.

And I agree that it's not age related.