See we told you.. Mcdonalds is ordering 7K touch screen to replace cashiers

[Uncensored2008]

Before I respond please indicate EXACTLY where I even INFERRED a Command economy.

You mean where you intimated a command economy?

{Germany & Japan practice Comparative Advantage,}

For that to be true, each would have to be a command economy.

And just exactly how is Japan and Germany producing excellent quality products Marxist?

I have no idea what you are attempting to say?

I said that Ricardian economics long ago morphed into Marxism. I said nothing at all about Japan or Germany - both of which are market economies, being Marxist.

Ricardian theory now is no more than a few laws. The law of diminishing returns, the law of rents, and a smattering of others. There is no such thing a Ricardian any more than there is a "Smithian." Comparative Advantage is a concept that every introductory student must study, but it is not a school of economics, rather it is a concept, one of thousands of elements.

Never mind the fact that Marxism includes Capitalism as one of it's phases.

Marx never quite grasped Capitalism, and mistook the pseudo - feudal markets in Germany for Capitalism.

Regardless, what do the meanderings of Marx on Capitalism have to do with outsourcing by Japanese and German industry?

 

[Indeependent]

Before I respond please indicate EXACTLY where I even INFERRED a Command economy.

You mean where you intimated a command economy?

{Germany & Japan practice Comparative Advantage,}

For that to be true, each would have to be a command economy.

And just exactly how is Japan and Germany producing excellent quality products Marxist?

I have no idea what you are attempting to say?

I said that Ricardian economics long ago morphed into Marxism. I said nothing at all about Japan or Germany - both of which are market economies, being Marxist.

Ricardian theory now is no more than a few laws. The law of diminishing returns, the law of rents, and a smattering of others. There is no such thing a Ricardian any more than there is a "Smithian." Comparative Advantage is a concept that every introductory student must study, but it is not a school of economics, rather it is a concept, one of thousands of elements.

Never mind the fact that Marxism includes Capitalism as one of it's phases.

Marx never quite grasped Capitalism, and mistook the pseudo - feudal markets in Germany for Capitalism.

Regardless, what do the meanderings of Marx on Capitalism have to do with outsourcing by Japanese and German industry?

How exactly did the concept of Comparative Advantage for a DESIRED product become Communistic or Socialistic?
Or is that an excuse for a psychotic level of off-shoring and business visas?

Marx wrote over 1,000 pages on his cyclical economic theory and the concept of private ownership has existed since Cain and Abel.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Watch a Microsoft Keynote and the audience is filled with Indians.

Watch an Apple Keynote and the audience is filled mostly with White Middle-Aged Engineers.

Guess which company can back up it's Marketing Department with actual innovative products?

Yep, thank god Apple created the mobile MP3 player (iPod) - oh wait, that was Creative Labs (Diamond Rio.) Well, they create the GUI (mouse and icons.) Oh wait, that was Xerox (PARC.) Well, they created the smart phone! Nah, that was Microsoft (iPaq.) Well, they created the Tablet -oops - that was Toshiba.

I'm sure that Apple has made SOMETHING that they didn't steal the IP from others...

I'm sure of it....

Or maybe not.

Now Microsoft, THERE is a lesson in blunder. The most innovative and creative corporation in history - hand to Steve Balmer?

Of course your quip is just fanboi idiocy. But the most successful software package in history was Microsoft Office 2003. It was developed by a crack team of programmers and engineers in Redmond. Then Balmer the bumbler had this really great idea "let's take this fantastic recipe of success and fuck with it!" So Microsoft fired the astounding brain-trust in Redmond and sent development to Bangalore, India. Not only that, but they had the BRILLIANT idea of functional teams. Hey, I'm an MBA, I love LEAN, still this was historical stupidity. UI elements were designed by a team that had no contact with the ODBC developers, who had not contact with the menu developers, who had no contact with the macro language developers, etc.

The result was Microsoft Office 2007 - the biggest disaster in MS history. Not only was Office '07 a steaming pile of shit, Microsoft managed to murder their own Operating System. I'm going to tell you a secret, there was nothing wrong with Vista - it was a good operating system. Windows 7 and Windows 8 ARE Vista.

But the average Costco shopper only knows that they want their computer to work. So when they got their shiny new Packard Bell E-Machine home, it was pre-loaded with MS Office 2007. They open up Excel - it crashes. They open up Outlook, it crashes, they save a document in Word, it corrupts the hard drive. Dammit - VISTA SUCKS. Well, it wasn't Vista, but the end used didn't know or care. So through the stupidity of off-shoring, they not only fucked Office, they destroyed what SHOULD have been a huge win.

I will grant that M$ learned, for the 2010 refresh, development moved right back to Redmond. Despite your bullshit, Microsoft has bee "reshoring" for many years.

Apple though, they build in China - putting up nets to catch the workers who would rather die than continue to slave in the Apple concentration camp.

 

[Uncensored2008]

How exactly did the concept of Comparative Advantage for a DESIRED product become Communistic or Socialistic?
Or is that an excuse for a psychotic level of off-shoring and business visas?

Marx wrote over 1,000 pages on his cyclical economic theory and the concept of private ownership has existed since Cain and Abel.

Ah, you're out of your depth and will use hostility in an attempt to mask the fact.

I understand. I teach introductory economics as a side job - I run into many students similar to you.

 

[kaz]

Germany & Japan practice Comparative Advantage, not Tsumani Across the Ocean Economics.
Outsourcing and off-shoring are fine when done intelligently as the aforementioned are doing.
The US off-shores WITHOUT discrimination.

Nice try.

US off-shoring is totally by comparative advantage. We are the world standard in management, the rest of the world follows us. You know nothing about what you're talking about. And your view that politicians are going to make more "intelligent" decisions than companies do with their own money is laughable. And you say that right after Obamacare proved that once again in full color. Liberals never learn.

 

[kaz]

How exactly did the concept of Comparative Advantage for a DESIRED product become Communistic or Socialistic?
Or is that an excuse for a psychotic level of off-shoring and business visas?

Marx wrote over 1,000 pages on his cyclical economic theory and the concept of private ownership has existed since Cain and Abel.

Ah, you're out of your depth and will use hostility in an attempt to mask the fact.

I understand. I teach introductory economics as a side job - I run into many students similar to you.

This is the guy who said that Marxism leads to capitalism...



Psychotic levels of off-shoring? We've barely scratched the surface. As flacaltenn pointed out it's not just "off-shoring" we're becoming an international workforce. It's going to keep going that way, and that's a spectacularly good thing.

Liberalism is self destruction by fear. American business is up for it, it's the politicians stoking fear that will destroy us, not competition.

 

[Montrovant]

I find Apple to be vastly overrated technologically. Marketing, they are amazing. Getting people to spend more money for the same products as other companies over and over again is sheer brilliance. I'm not saying Apple has never created a quality product. I'm just saying that you can almost always get comparable products for less from other companies, but so many people want that 'i' in front of their product instead.

I am running Vista and have been for years. I've had no more problems with it than I did with XP. All of the Windows have had bugs, but I've not noticed Vista being particularly bad. I never use Office and I put my own pc's together, so that was never an issue for me.

I can't say if Uncensored's post was accurate, but it sounded pretty plausible to me.

 

[flacaltenn]

There are plenty of incredibly qualified unemployed engineers.
Why? Because most companies don't want brilliance, they want a good quarterly return.

That observation MAYBE TRUE in some specialties BECAUSE of the manufacturing bleed we've seen. I've got DOZENS of Silicon Valley buds that are already retired or displaced from the Semi Industry and certain Hardware intensive businesses..

Fact is --- if you haven't noticed --- we need to make a lot LESS consumer crap today than in the 80s.. No answering machines, no vid recorders, no radios, calculators, etc.. That means also that business no longer needs Fax machines, AV equipment, cameras, and a lot of other stuff.

Gotta start thinking about WHAT'S CHANGED --- before you start assigning blame..

But it's NOT by age in the remaining areas.. At least under 60 --- and especially if you have a BROAD engineering background.. By PROMOTING the idea that Engineering is a dead end -- you're gonna do more damage to the fields that CANNOT get enough folks employed TODAY and TOMORROW. It's VERY bright for artifical intelligience, robotics, signal and image processing, displays, power systems, and biomedical engineering --- to mention a few.

The bleeding started in the mid 2000s under GW.
Nobody bothered to notice until EVERYBODY was hot by Sep 2008.

And I agree that it's not age related.

It picked up pace under Bush.. But it coincided with the shift of venture and risk capital to the "internet superhiway". At the same time China was starting to get customers, the venture dudes/dudettes discovered that their successes were a LOT QUICKER in funding software type ideas.. There is not a lot of basic R&D required for software based products. And THAT is what eats up capital for start-ups..

So the signs were there in the 90s.. Nobody was taking Globalization seriously. And the perception of RISK in hi-tech changed after the internet boom bubble exploded in 1998 or 2000.

 

[flacaltenn]

Germany & Japan practice Comparative Advantage, not Tsumani Across the Ocean Economics.
Outsourcing and off-shoring are fine when done intelligently as the aforementioned are doing.
The US off-shores WITHOUT discrimination.

Nice try.

US off-shoring is totally by comparative advantage. We are the world standard in management, the rest of the world follows us. You know nothing about what you're talking about. And your view that politicians are going to make more "intelligent" decisions than companies do with their own money is laughable. And you say that right after Obamacare proved that once again in full color. Liberals never learn.

Uhhhh.. OK.. So maybe today we are the "world standard" in management. Funny thing about that tho.. There's ample evidence that "they who control the manufacturing -- ultimately knows the product and process BETTER than management"..

Before you scoff from your cushy mgt chair ---- We went thru this in the 60s when we "ALLOWED" the Japanese to build all our radios and TVs.. We LAUGHED at their mgt and engineering skills and figured we'd ALWAYS have a handle on the situation..

You KNOW the rest of that story.. Aint a TRACE of radios and TV left in this country..

 

[Againsheila]

Germany & Japan practice Comparative Advantage, not Tsumani Across the Ocean Economics.
Outsourcing and off-shoring are fine when done intelligently as the aforementioned are doing.
The US off-shores WITHOUT discrimination.

Nice try.

US off-shoring is totally by comparative advantage. We are the world standard in management, the rest of the world follows us. You know nothing about what you're talking about. And your view that politicians are going to make more "intelligent" decisions than companies do with their own money is laughable. And you say that right after Obamacare proved that once again in full color. Liberals never learn.

Uhhhh.. OK.. So maybe today we are the "world standard" in management. Funny thing about that tho.. There's ample evidence that "they who control the manufacturing -- ultimately knows the product and process BETTER than management"..

Before you scoff from your cushy mgt chair ---- We went thru this in the 60s when we "ALLOWED" the Japanese to build all our radios and TVs.. We LAUGHED at their mgt and engineering skills and figured we'd ALWAYS have a handle on the situation..

You KNOW the rest of that story.. Aint a TRACE of radios and TV left in this country..

Zenith was the last TV manufacturer to leave the country. They didn't go to Japan, they went to Mexico, paid for by our tax dollars and with assurance by the Mexican government that no union would start there. Since then, they've left Mexico for even cheaper places. I can't understand how the people can continue to support a government (both dems and reps) that used our tax dollars to ship our jobs out of our country.

 

[kaz]

Germany & Japan practice Comparative Advantage, not Tsumani Across the Ocean Economics.
Outsourcing and off-shoring are fine when done intelligently as the aforementioned are doing.
The US off-shores WITHOUT discrimination.

Nice try.

US off-shoring is totally by comparative advantage. We are the world standard in management, the rest of the world follows us. You know nothing about what you're talking about. And your view that politicians are going to make more "intelligent" decisions than companies do with their own money is laughable. And you say that right after Obamacare proved that once again in full color. Liberals never learn.

Uhhhh.. OK.. So maybe today we are the "world standard" in management. Funny thing about that tho.. There's ample evidence that "they who control the manufacturing -- ultimately knows the product and process BETTER than management"..

Before you scoff from your cushy mgt chair ---- We went thru this in the 60s when we "ALLOWED" the Japanese to build all our radios and TVs.. We LAUGHED at their mgt and engineering skills and figured we'd ALWAYS have a handle on the situation..

You KNOW the rest of that story.. Aint a TRACE of radios and TV left in this country..

US manufacturing volume has never gone down, other than possibly temporarily during recessions. Services have just grown faster. What's unfortunate though is that the US government has for decades and is continuing to drive manufacturing off shore. It could be a lot larger than it is. However, services and management are the high margin businesses, that is where we excel., that's where our focus should be.

 

[kaz]

US off-shoring is totally by comparative advantage. We are the world standard in management, the rest of the world follows us. You know nothing about what you're talking about. And your view that politicians are going to make more "intelligent" decisions than companies do with their own money is laughable. And you say that right after Obamacare proved that once again in full color. Liberals never learn.

Uhhhh.. OK.. So maybe today we are the "world standard" in management. Funny thing about that tho.. There's ample evidence that "they who control the manufacturing -- ultimately knows the product and process BETTER than management"..

Before you scoff from your cushy mgt chair ---- We went thru this in the 60s when we "ALLOWED" the Japanese to build all our radios and TVs.. We LAUGHED at their mgt and engineering skills and figured we'd ALWAYS have a handle on the situation..

You KNOW the rest of that story.. Aint a TRACE of radios and TV left in this country..

Zenith was the last TV manufacturer to leave the country. They didn't go to Japan, they went to Mexico, paid for by our tax dollars and with assurance by the Mexican government that no union would start there. Since then, they've left Mexico for even cheaper places. I can't understand how the people can continue to support a government (both dems and reps) that used our tax dollars to ship our jobs out of our country.

Because it's a lie that our tax dollars fund companies moving off shore. I am not saying you are lying, just that you believe the lies.

Politicians punish companies endlessly, then blame them when they give up and leave. You need to recognize who the real enemy of US jobs is. Our government.

 

[RKMBrown]

You are confusing outsourcing and offshoring.

Oh, I doubt that.

Then why did you cite to outsourcing in our discussion about offshoring?

 

[RKMBrown]

Engineering is only golden for the young. Once you know what you are doing and can demand a professional salary ... there is a huge target on your back at most corporations.

Nonsense.

Senior Engineers are the most difficult positions to fill. You might be able to backstop production or design with Jr. Engineers from India, but for the Senior positions where intimate knowledge of the product, production and business goals is required, outsourcing, both domestically and internationally is not practical. Most larger corporations that went full tilt with outsourcing are and have been returning the positions to in-house.

Make up your mind, either is it "nonsense," or "[m]ost larger corporations that went full tilt with outsourcing are and have been returning the positions to in-house." Which statement are you sticking with?

 

[RKMBrown]

why not use cheap Engineers...

You've never worked with Chinese concerns - there is no such thing as "quality" design. Creativity is completely absent. IF you seek cookie cutter repetition, China works. If you seek innovation and creative design, China is a disaster.

The term of this decade is "right sourcing," determining the proper combination of in-house talent and outsourced labor. Even in Engineering a certain amount of work makes sense for outsourcing. And as you said, this may or may not be be offshore. We outsource large compression mold design, the mold maker had better skill sets. But this is a domestic company, not offshore. We tried Chinese - a complete disaster.

In my experience if you properly train an Indian Engineers and Chinese Engineers you can get very good results from them. You can't just assume they are well trained American Engineers, because at the start, they typically are not trained at all. Learning to be innovative is a part of the training. The difference between India and China that I found, was that the Indian Engineers are willing and able to jump ship and become your competitor at a moments notice and will do so right about the time they become productive. In contrast the Chinese Engineers are locked in and won't move for anything or any reason. I find this difference to be based on culture.

 

[RKMBrown]

No idea where you had a bad experience, but groups like Boeing and Raytheon are project driven and have been letting engineers go at the end of projects since the 1950's.

You are conflating contract work for one off projects with long term employees. Most companies will take their best and move them to the next project rather than let them go only to start over with new engineers each project. While Boeing hires some contractors, I work with many of their Engineers that have been there for decades. I put Boeing in the good company to work for category. Most companies that do US government contracts try to do so with a lot of US employees. I put IBM and Microsoft in the bad companies to work for category.

 

[flacaltenn]

You are confusing outsourcing and offshoring.

Oh, I doubt that.

Engineering is only golden for the young. Once you know what you are doing and can demand a professional salary ... there is a huge target on your back at most corporations.

Nonsense.

Senior Engineers are the most difficult positions to fill. You might be able to backstop production or design with Jr. Engineers from India, but for the Senior positions where intimate knowledge of the product, production and business goals is required, outsourcing, both domestically and internationally is not practical. Most larger corporations that went full tilt with outsourcing are and have been returning the positions to in-house.



Results.

You've never worked with Chinese concerns - there is no such thing as "quality" design. Creativity is completely absent. IF you seek cookie cutter repetition, China works. If you seek innovation and creative design, China is a disaster.

The term of this decade is "right sourcing," determining the proper combination of in-house talent and outsourced labor. Even in Engineering a certain amount of work makes sense for outsourcing. And as you said, this may or may not be be offshore. We outsource large compression mold design, the mold maker had better skill sets. But this is a domestic company, not offshore. We tried Chinese - a complete disaster.

Absolutely right. Jives with the experience I've been thru.. Made MANY chinese friends who were H1B for awhile.. They go back to China and get Chauffeurs and Penthouses and a Govt job to STEAL American technology.. Had to cut relations with one very friend because of that.

But we said the same about the Japanese. And that might not be true about Chinese innovation tomorrow -- if we continue to get stupider at science and tech. But the difference between Japan and China is the cultures. Chinese have been bludgeoned into responding to authority. One client (USA citizen -- Chinese descent) I had in Silicon Valley severely ABUSED his H1B staff. He would SCREAM at them and occasionally heard a few four letter English words as well.

They are NOT ALLOWED to think or innovate in the presence of authority. But in private, they felt they could tell me how beaten down they felt. That could all change. Particularly when they see their good enough to be fought over by Western companies in China trying to hire them.

I'm more worried about US becoming a nation of technical beggars and thieves. Not because authority abuses us for thinking --- but because we dont think much anymore.

 

[RKMBrown]

Absolutely right. Jives with the experience I've been thru.. Made MANY chinese friends who were H1B for awhile.. They go back to China and get Chauffeurs and Penthouses and a Govt job to STEAL American technology.. Had to cut relations with one very friend because of that.

But we said the same about the Japanese. And that might not be true about Chinese innovation tomorrow -- if we continue to get stupider at science and tech. But the difference between Japan and China is the cultures. Chinese have been bludgeoned into responding to authority. One client (USA citizen -- Chinese descent) I had in Silicon Valley severely ABUSED his H1B staff. He would SCREAM at them and occasionally heard a few four letter English words as well.

They are NOT ALLOWED to think or innovate in the presence of authority. But in private, they felt they could tell me how beaten down they felt. That could all change. Particularly when they see their good enough to be fought over by Western companies in China trying to hire them.

I'm more worried about US becoming a nation of technical beggars and thieves. Not because authority abuses us for thinking --- but because we dont think much anymore.

Heh... yeah maybe my problem was doing to good a job in training my Chinese teams.

Here's a clue... when they say yes, that does not mean yes they will do something, that means yes they hear you. That one's for free

 

[SteadyMercury]

We've not had good results with Chinese or Indian devs. In fact we've had shitty results with French ones too, but at least the French were good at pretending they were getting tings done then making excuses later.

 

[beagle9]

Both Germany and Japan protect their workforce from off-shoring and business visas and their economies are quite healthy.

Both those claims are false.

Neither Germany nor Japan have successfully protected domestic production.

Japan particularly has engaged in massive outsourcing, as labor costs have risen.

http://www.meti.go.jp/english/report/downloadfiles/1-2e.pdf

Germany too has engaged in outsourcing to Eastern Europe since the fall of the Soviet Union.

{They find that, in Germany, the extent of outsourcing among manufacturing industries is higher than among service industries}

The Extent and Impact of Outsourcing: Evidence from Germany - Research Publications - St. Louis Fed

Further, to call the Japanese economy "healthy" is laughable at best. This is a terrible time to do an analysis on Japan due to the havoc from the Tsunami - still, Japan has not had a healthy economy since the 1990's.

In fact, the wealthy elite of Japan have been attempting to do to their workforce what the US has done and the Japan have had demonstrations.

In fact, China and India do the same even though India's economy is a reflection of our since their major income is servicing a smaller and smaller US consumer market.

Excuse me?

The consumer market in the USA is growing at about 2% a year (which is dismal, but Obama is running things)

The talk of the US collapsing if we stopped destroying our Blue and White collar force is nonsense and is meant to protect upper level wages and bonuses.

The days of button pushers making high wages are over - and will never come back. The myth that white collar jobs are declining is propaganda.

We are in a global economy - it is a matter of fact. The USA has significant assets and can (continue to) dominate this economy - BUT it must be through innovation and creativity. The idea that a union slob with a 6th grade education can push a button on a press for 8 hours a day and live a middle class life is over.

Get a degree in engineering, IT, or business - and you're golden.

Switching gears a bit; we stand on the brink of a revolution that will dwarf even the digital revolution - this is of course the biotechnology revolution. America DOMINATES this field and is poised to reap the economic rewards of these innovations. Of course we have Obama, who will seek to sink the American dominance and socialize biotech under his fascist care fiasco - but IF the leftists are driven back, the USA will be in fine shape for many decades as biotech advances.

Another arrogant space cadet who thinks everyone can somehow avoid the pain by everyone becoming a rocket scientist soon. This is all about a huge dis-respect thing that is now going on in this nation between the classes or it has since gone wrong for many these days in this nation. The problem is that somehow all respect has been lost, and greed is ruling the day now. It's just that plain and simple really.