See we told you.. Mcdonalds is ordering 7K touch screen to replace cashiers

[Indeependent]

You're forgetting that government use IBM simply because they're the best in what they do. How many things done by IBM have failed? But, no, they hire some wannabees to design and service ACA website...

By the way, IBM has some 650 customers worldwide...

IBM's customer base is large due to legacy and the need for speed.
Nothing can match the speed of a mainframe.
For instance, Citibank needs to process and print 20+ million Customer Statements every month.

The ACA was "developed" by the Private Sector with US Tax money.
The lion's share went to the MBAs who then hired the "Best and Brightest" to actually make it work; this "failure" occurs in private firms all the time because the cost of the "Best and Brightest" is irresistibly low despite their incredibly high failure rate.

IBM developers USED to be pretty good.
Now they just are plain incompetent.

What a cheezy spin.. ACA was developed "in the private sector" (actually Canada and UK) because the govt has no competence to do such a thing. The FBI was using teletypes and roladexes late into the last decade.

CLEARLY there was hold-ups in obtaining specifications and answers to questions because no govt bureaucrat wants to stick their out or really understands all the operating criterion for project that complex.

NO firm in the private sector could botch a program this badly and get another contract. The UK or Canadian firm had a TRACK RECORD of failures and was still hired.

'Fraid we;re not stupid or desparate to believe all those ludicrous excuses. .

Fidelity just canceled a major project AFTER 4 YEARS with IBM, Oracle and Microsoft BECAUSE the RUSSIAN Project Leaders couldn't communicate with the INDIAN coders.

I don't know what fantasy land you live in but I have worked in the Private Sector AND Civil Sector and I know what goes on.

There are LOTS of combinations of reasons why automation goes awry but far and away the biggest reason since around 2004 has been because MNCs, who live by Institutional Trading and Quarterly Earnings, use the cheapest labor possible.

 

[RKMBrown]

Absolutely right. Jives with the experience I've been thru.. Made MANY chinese friends who were H1B for awhile.. They go back to China and get Chauffeurs and Penthouses and a Govt job to STEAL American technology.. Had to cut relations with one very friend because of that.

But we said the same about the Japanese. And that might not be true about Chinese innovation tomorrow -- if we continue to get stupider at science and tech. But the difference between Japan and China is the cultures. Chinese have been bludgeoned into responding to authority. One client (USA citizen -- Chinese descent) I had in Silicon Valley severely ABUSED his H1B staff. He would SCREAM at them and occasionally heard a few four letter English words as well.

They are NOT ALLOWED to think or innovate in the presence of authority. But in private, they felt they could tell me how beaten down they felt. That could all change. Particularly when they see their good enough to be fought over by Western companies in China trying to hire them.

I'm more worried about US becoming a nation of technical beggars and thieves. Not because authority abuses us for thinking --- but because we dont think much anymore.

Heh... yeah maybe my problem was doing to good a job in training my Chinese teams.

Here's a clue... when they say yes, that does not mean yes they will do something, that means yes they hear you. That one's for free

Yes, anyone working with outsourcing learns that fast, you know what you're talking about. I'd tweak it and say they mean "I will try," but the same gist. Indians are the same. Unfortunately they won't ask questions, they will try and try and do a lot of work even if they don't understand what you want and it was all wasted. You learn to ask questions and put in verification processes very quickly.

Another challenge is they are so hierarchical. This may have affected me as management more than you, you can say. I had one Indian project manager who kept saying yes. Everything was working great when he was working with American teams, he was a bright guy. But when he said yes when I asked for things in the Indian organization, nothing happened. I pulled him in my office and asked him what's up, I said you clearly get what I want, why does nothing happen when I ask you to do something in your organization?

He said he has to follow Indian procedure, he can't do anything with my requests other than relay it to his manager. His manager was on his side well below my level, so it never got up to my level, it was buried in bureaucracy. I asked if he could escalate it. He said he loves the American way, but no he can't, it would end his career.

Then he had an idea, he said when I want something, he can tell me who to go to, just don't mention he told me. Wow, that worked. When he gave me the name of the person with the authority to do it, they couldn't say no to me and it got done. I drove that model for all my teams after that, I asked the people working with me to direct me to who had the authority to do it, it was a game changer.

The bottom line is as you are discussing, culture is huge, and it's different for Indians, Chinese, Mexicans. Though they are all hierarchical, that part's similar.

With the Indians more often than not it depends on what caste they are in, whether they follow the hierarchy or not. Funny story, I had this one "upper" caste Engineer working for me, we were a pretty casual group, jeans and t-shirts... This fresh out was bragging about his "caste" and giving me the I don't have to take direction from you BS... lol I come into work the next day in a suit and tie, took him aside gave him the set jaw discussion... explained to him why his ideas were wrong, explained to him my family history (father director of engineering at allied signal, grandfather lead engineer at Los Alamos), and that I don't care what his caste is it's below mine at this facility, and if he didn't like it I'd move him to the loading dock... guy shit his pants, was one of the best workers I had from then on.. gave the best Christmas presents.

My last stint at a big corp, was a top band Engineer / lead architect, essentially equivalent in level to a Senior Manager. Thus I was able to bridge those gaps. But yes management escalations are not doable in many organizations, or if you do expect those folks to find someone to knife you in the back some time later. Politics in these companies... you'd think they would've sent the Engineers to political science classes instead of agile/scrum classes.

 

[RKMBrown]

IBM's customer base is large due to legacy and the need for speed.
Nothing can match the speed of a mainframe.
For instance, Citibank needs to process and print 20+ million Customer Statements every month.

The ACA was "developed" by the Private Sector with US Tax money.
The lion's share went to the MBAs who then hired the "Best and Brightest" to actually make it work; this "failure" occurs in private firms all the time because the cost of the "Best and Brightest" is irresistibly low despite their incredibly high failure rate.

IBM developers USED to be pretty good.
Now they just are plain incompetent.

What a cheezy spin.. ACA was developed "in the private sector" (actually Canada and UK) because the govt has no competence to do such a thing. The FBI was using teletypes and roladexes late into the last decade.

CLEARLY there was hold-ups in obtaining specifications and answers to questions because no govt bureaucrat wants to stick their out or really understands all the operating criterion for project that complex.

NO firm in the private sector could botch a program this badly and get another contract. The UK or Canadian firm had a TRACK RECORD of failures and was still hired.

'Fraid we;re not stupid or desparate to believe all those ludicrous excuses. .

Fidelity just canceled a major project AFTER 4 YEARS with IBM, Oracle and Microsoft BECAUSE the RUSSIAN Project Leaders couldn't communicate with the INDIAN coders.

I don't know what fantasy land you live in but I have worked in the Private Sector AND Civil Sector and I know what goes on.

There are LOTS of combinations of reasons why automation goes awry but far and away the biggest reason since around 2004 has been because MNCs, who live by Institutional Trading and Quarterly Earnings, use the cheapest labor possible.

AYUP IBM dumped 300k experienced US engineers and replaced them with idiots that were willing to work for cheap. All in the name of "global" competition.

 

[Indeependent]

What a cheezy spin.. ACA was developed "in the private sector" (actually Canada and UK) because the govt has no competence to do such a thing. The FBI was using teletypes and roladexes late into the last decade.

CLEARLY there was hold-ups in obtaining specifications and answers to questions because no govt bureaucrat wants to stick their out or really understands all the operating criterion for project that complex.

NO firm in the private sector could botch a program this badly and get another contract. The UK or Canadian firm had a TRACK RECORD of failures and was still hired.

'Fraid we;re not stupid or desparate to believe all those ludicrous excuses. .

Fidelity just canceled a major project AFTER 4 YEARS with IBM, Oracle and Microsoft BECAUSE the RUSSIAN Project Leaders couldn't communicate with the INDIAN coders.

I don't know what fantasy land you live in but I have worked in the Private Sector AND Civil Sector and I know what goes on.

There are LOTS of combinations of reasons why automation goes awry but far and away the biggest reason since around 2004 has been because MNCs, who live by Institutional Trading and Quarterly Earnings, use the cheapest labor possible.

AYUP IBM dumped 300k experienced US engineers and replaced them with idiots that were willing to work for cheap. All in the name of "global" competition.

"No, no! We Best and Brightest! labudabamumbadumdagumbalunda".

I just LOVE it when someone thinks they knows what goes on in Corporate America because they have a subscription to Forbes!

 

[thanatos144]

Fidelity just canceled a major project AFTER 4 YEARS with IBM, Oracle and Microsoft BECAUSE the RUSSIAN Project Leaders couldn't communicate with the INDIAN coders.

I don't know what fantasy land you live in but I have worked in the Private Sector AND Civil Sector and I know what goes on.

There are LOTS of combinations of reasons why automation goes awry but far and away the biggest reason since around 2004 has been because MNCs, who live by Institutional Trading and Quarterly Earnings, use the cheapest labor possible.

AYUP IBM dumped 300k experienced US engineers and replaced them with idiots that were willing to work for cheap. All in the name of "global" competition.

"No, no! We Best and Brightest! labudabamumbadumdagumbalunda".

I just LOVE it when someone thinks they knows what goes on in Corporate America because they have a subscription to Forbes!

And yet you do because you envy them and covet what is theirs?

tapatalk post

 

[Indeependent]

AYUP IBM dumped 300k experienced US engineers and replaced them with idiots that were willing to work for cheap. All in the name of "global" competition.

"No, no! We Best and Brightest! labudabamumbadumdagumbalunda".

I just LOVE it when someone thinks they knows what goes on in Corporate America because they have a subscription to Forbes!

And yet you do because you envy them and covet what is theirs?

tapatalk post

And just exactly where in my post did you pick that up?
Please be precise.

 

[flacaltenn]

Fidelity just canceled a major project AFTER 4 YEARS with IBM, Oracle and Microsoft BECAUSE the RUSSIAN Project Leaders couldn't communicate with the INDIAN coders.

I don't know what fantasy land you live in but I have worked in the Private Sector AND Civil Sector and I know what goes on.

There are LOTS of combinations of reasons why automation goes awry but far and away the biggest reason since around 2004 has been because MNCs, who live by Institutional Trading and Quarterly Earnings, use the cheapest labor possible.

AYUP IBM dumped 300k experienced US engineers and replaced them with idiots that were willing to work for cheap. All in the name of "global" competition.

"No, no! We Best and Brightest! labudabamumbadumdagumbalunda".

I just LOVE it when someone thinks they knows what goes on in Corporate America because they have a subscription to Forbes!

Really?? I've got a GREAT career as an Industry science/engineer and have worked WITH a LOT of Govt agencies as well. Including NASA and some 3 letter agencies I wont name.
So it's not a case of which magazines I read.. MOstly late at night -- I've got windows opened next to USMB trying to keep clients foreign manufacturing running..

But the main failure on your part here was to realize that YOUR GOVERNMENT -- the one you turn to wipe your silly ass for you --- OUTSOURCED the ACA website to FOREIGN major losers.. Even the "OBAMA GIRL" that got purged from PAGE 1 of the code ---- was from Uruguay or some close approximation and recieved NOT A DIME of compensation for her image..

And you want to tell me how damn awful it is that MicroSoft wants to code 24 hours a day by contracting around the world?

 

[Indeependent]

AYUP IBM dumped 300k experienced US engineers and replaced them with idiots that were willing to work for cheap. All in the name of "global" competition.

"No, no! We Best and Brightest! labudabamumbadumdagumbalunda".

I just LOVE it when someone thinks they knows what goes on in Corporate America because they have a subscription to Forbes!

Really?? I've got a GREAT career as an Industry science/engineer and have worked WITH a LOT of Govt agencies as well. Including NASA and some 3 letter agencies I wont name.
So it's not a case of which magazines I read.. MOstly late at night -- I've got windows opened next to USMB trying to keep clients foreign manufacturing running..

But the main failure on your part here was to realize that YOUR GOVERNMENT -- the one you turn to wipe your silly ass for you --- OUTSOURCED the ACA website to FOREIGN major losers.. Even the "OBAMA GIRL" that got purged from PAGE 1 of the code ---- was from Uruguay or some close approximation and recieved NOT A DIME of compensation for her image..

And you want to tell me how damn awful it is that MicroSoft wants to code 24 hours a day by contracting around the world?

I know many engineers who have great careers.
But there are many agencies on all civil levels that really don't need someone with your level of expertise.
In fact, just look at the NYC TimeClock, or whatever it's called, fiasco..A Microsoft Indian "developed" POS.

If MS has people writing code around the clock, then they should get the same quality people who write Andriod and iOS code, not the mediocre reincarnation they constantly regurgitate.

By the way, do YOU get Release Candidate software that actually installs?
Because the average Joe can't install RC sh!tware.

And you'd think these geniuses from MS would provide a simple uninstall for the Visual Studio; don't tell me, YOUR Visual Studio will uninstall and a million others won't.

 

[StanB]

What would those cashiers do if the experiment is a success?

 

[Indeependent]

What would those cashiers do if the experiment is a success?

Technology must move forward.
Wages are low due, in part, to illegals and visas.
Even so, how much should someone with no skills be paid?
It's a moot discussion.

 

[StanB]

Some of them are merely students working part time to support themselves.

 

[armada]

auto drive cars are in test expected to be launch in 2015 then no more chauffeurs needed

Amazon prime air in test to deliver packages to consumers without the need of truck drivers postman

McDonald's experimenting touch screens to replace cashiers

8 robotic companies gathering with Google to build don't know what

computer a friend or enemy?

 

[armada]

What would those cashiers do if the experiment is a success?

join army and fight against terrorism forever

 

[Politico]

What would those cashiers do if the experiment is a success?

Embrace the technology they begged for and find other jobs.

 

[beagle9]

Where do you get a link between class and ability to become a biochemist. This is exactly the pessimistic view of workers that leftists adore. Aint it?

Where does one get various links established between any new talent that may be hidden out there (not known about), and this in order for the private sector to become aware of various talents that may exist out there in these ways without government help?

I mean is this what you just asked me ? It's like this you see, if a man was to walk up to get a loan from a private run bank, but yet he hasn't had his credit established yet, then who is going to finally allow him that loan in the private sector without this established credit needed ? Who is going to put private capital at risk in these ways ? Not many will, I mean not without some kind of government guarantee given to them or a co-signee to sign for them also right ? Yes guarantee's by the government have been given I think, before the catering to the unknown in these ways is established by the private sector as found in created links for them as needed for such assistance is given.

If people are to be given a chance outside of having someone on the inside in which they might know or vice-versa that a person on the inside might know them, and this without government involvement, then it is very slim that they may be given that chance wouldn't you say ? It has always been considered a huge risk to private capital and it's investment of to go it alone these days, but have they been tricked into this by government over time ? So it is that they lean on government for their guarantee's. There are many more reasons for links to exist in order to assure access always, and if the doors are closed one by one as some are thinking about these days, then isolation starts to build, and people begin to get cut off. Now that can become a bad thing if done in the wrong ways.

Now I wonder what ever happened to on the job training in America without government always being involved ? You know where companies use to look for talent without the governments help or involvement ? You see they (the private sector) trained up some very talented people to do some very incredible things back in the day.

Well I know what happened I think, where as they (the private sector) threw it all on the government (sold their souls) for the guarantee that the government offered them in it all.

The private sector loved this, because it took all or a lot of the responsibility off of them completely, and this when doing business with the employee company relation in this way. The government has since took over the entrance doorways completely for the most part, therefore (swelling the government to become more powerful and huge in this way), and the corps and companies were glad to give it to them also, but it all has come at a huge price to the tax payers, and to these companies now. Why? It's because government now controls access for the most part when it comes to educating the people for these companies, instead of the companies requiring a minimum standard in education by themselves, and to expect only a level that is necessary to further train from, so the company would carry most of the weight in order to assure itself of the talent that is needed to suit the companies expectations without government dictates.

You see the government can use this power as leverage against these companies now, just as they have in the past, and all in order to get them to do just about anything they want or be taken completely over by government if they don't. The PRIVATE SECTOR HAS BECOME FOOLS, AND HAS SOLD ITSELF UP THE RIVER, SO WELCOME TO THE OUTCOME OF THE NEW DEAL AMERICA. The crucial link between private citizen and private company has been severed, so if that potential great bio-chemist existed out there, well the only way the company would know about it would be through the government only, and that is a problem if you ask me. I mean WOW!

Now why did the government on their part do this in America ? Why did the corps and companies give it all over to the government in this way ? Now the government has botched it's job or its uses of this power I think, because it has favored a few groups access over others to be found within certain levels now, and all due to political agenda's. Ok, so where does all this lead to in the end or in the future ? Think about it.

Here is one example of a link needing to be re-established. - Have you ever seen a young person trying to establish credit on their own, especially if they don't have a wealthy enough family member to co-sign for the loan ? It's downright tuff is what it is. Links have to be established to make it all work out right? Now if you will look back through history, you will see that there are some real rags to riches stories in this nation, and it is all due to the links being available for people to exploit such links without going through the wrong people to get anywhere in their lives. Is the government the wrong link, and should companies be working to break that link I wonder ? Should companies re-establish programs to train people up to work again, and this without total government assistance being involved ? How about companies being responsible for 80% of it, and government responsible for 20% ? Would that begin to roll back government and their role in this ? Would it begin to get the proper people in the right positions again in life, and this instead of the use of quota's and things like that in which the government has used to the detriment of our hidden talent still hidden within this nation ?









Who should be the encouraging officials, I mean should it be the private sector or the government yielding the most power in these things ?



Again who should yield the most power in this encouragement ?

BTW --- as far as RECOGNIZING talents in your comments about talents shows --- TODAY, even the economically disadvantaged dont DEPEND on Sony records or Simon Cowell to find them. The tools for creating, publishing, marketing and broadcasting your music are available to damn near everybody.. Technology has democratized commerce in a lot of ways..

Again after reading all that I said, who should take the lead on this encouragement, training and giving the best access today ?

Thanks for civil and considered response.. It's rare on public forums.

Your comments center around the NECCESSITY of providing capital to lift folks up once they've been screwed by their class disadvantage. And your 1st resort always seems to be that only government is interested or equipped to solve the problem.. Cutting checks and making loans is NOT the first step to recognizing and developing human potential. The 1st step is to encourage a culture where staying in school and ACHEIVEMENT is valued, EXPECTED and rewarded for a lifetime.

Too often leftists immediately design a solution from 3000 miles away without KNOWING what the problems are. I pointed out to another poster -- that implementing a "living wage" is a SURE-FIRED WAY TO RAISE the H.S. drop-out rate. (for example). Which is the opposite of what we NEED to do to make the American economy RELEVENT AGAIN in the world economy. There will always be the folks who CARE about their education and skills and the folks that "just want a job". PREVIOUSLY --- "just having a job" was an OK alternative.. But not for much longer.

So the FIRST STEP is something like "self-declaration" -- where you FIND the folks who WANT to get a GED or a Comm College AA or learn a trade. I've got to tell ya Beagle -- the programs for THAT are already pretty much in place. And I'd be willing to support those folks with BOTH govt and industry help. Which BTW --- is also ALREADY in place for those goals. Instead of advertising for ObamaPhones and FoodStamps and making them cool.. We should be stressing HOW EASY and economically you can GET a GED or an AA Degree or a Trade diploma..

You will get more "self-declarers" --- if you RAISE the expectations early in school life -- not continue to lower them. AND -- you get to parents early and SHOW them that their kids CAN and SHOULD declare to learn skills better than Minimum Wage careers, because they can go to Comm College (even if 4yr is beyond imagination) for virtually pennies on the dollar.

There's triage for the rest.. The "undeclared"... Perhaps welfare payments should be tied to keeping your kids in school. Which would aimed at parents that just dont seem to sign report cards or show up at Parents night. The parents that "dont give a fuck" or cant sort out their own problems or addictions need THERAPY. But all this NOT DONE with global check writing, loan guaranteeing frenzies to the "victims" of class.. That's just wasteful and unproductive without INDIVIDUAL triage of their "issues".

There's a line of inner city parents WAITING to get their kids into better schools. You triage them FIRST --- by giving them CHOICE --- yes even the "V-word" in order to overcome their class disadvantage. In addition to " October Sky" and checking out my thread in Current Events about "Optimism About Human Potential" ----- Have you ever watched "Waiting for Superman"??? If not --- please do --- and respond on this thread if it ENCOURAGED you to think about school choice and failing schools differently...

PS.. In most states --- Comm College training was dirt cheap.. You could literally complete a 2 yr AA degree in 4 yrs WHILE working for a couple hundred per semester. LESS with existing programs and subsidies and grants. SOME of that has changed BECAUSE it was UNIVERSAL.. And folks who COULD afford to pay the real costs were also getting artificially low costs.

Really ? You got out of what I wrote in my post, a message that prompted the response that you gave in bold above ???? I think we are on the same page in that government needs not to have the continued role that it plays in percentages found in all of this, and that the private sector should go back to carrying the biggest burden of finding talent, hiring that talent, and then training that talent in America. They should do this very importantly, in in order to gain back their freedom from government dictates, but you disagree with me in all of this ? WOW! How is it that you miss my points, and then you won't allow me to also be compassionate over the plight of the poor working class who are caught in the middle of all this in this nation ? Think about what all has taken place here, because it is complicated what has taken place, now keep up. Big Grin!

 

[beagle9]

What would those cashiers do if the experiment is a success?

Embrace the technology they begged for and find other jobs.

Who begged for the technology, and in what way have they begged for it again ?

 

[beagle9]

What would those cashiers do if the experiment is a success?

join army and fight against terrorism forever

That's about the way it has all been set up now.. It's a "Shame" isn't it ?

 

[beagle9]

What would those cashiers do if the experiment is a success?

Technology must move forward.
Wages are low due, in part, to illegals and visas.
Even so, how much should someone with no skills be paid?
It's a moot discussion.

People with no skills should make an entrance pay (minimum wage), when coming in the doorway when hired, then they should be introduced to a structuralized pay scale system that has been set up by the company, and that company should have a system set up that is based on it's own successes, and not what the government says that it should be set up on or by what other companies are doing in their pay structures either (Every company is different). If this would go back to the way it was back in the day, and it was run in an honorable and decent way by the private sector themselves, then there would be no problems, but what is happening is Greed and the fleecing of America due to greed, and the government seeking power for reason of huge agenda's that it wants to see come to fruition also, so it takes advantage of the weakness that is born by this greed. First it must use the weakness caused by greed to make the private sector relinquish it's power more and more to them, and for the private sector to soon be in total subjection to them... You see the government is actually culpable in this also, because it actually helps companies do what they do unto their employee's, and this by subsidizing these companies employee's at times for them. You see the companies swears to the government that they just can't afford to take care of them, and then to make a huge profit off of them and their work also, so they beg the government for assistance or the government is begging them to let it help. Now why would the government do this ? The motivations have since been seen, but companies keep their greed blinding them in their view finders, and so they just can't see the government destroyer that is coming for them. So corporate welfare becomes a HUGE PROBLEM NOW in this nation, and the government is up to it's eyeballs in this game with them. The reason the government is up to it's eyeballs in this game ? It's because it gives them power over the private sectors, and if it controls them, then it controls everything as a power full of dictates instead of it being a small (VERY SMALL) assistant to the private sector, and only when needed just as it should be. Doesn't anyone see what has taken place over time, and where it all is leading to over time ?

 

[kaz]

Heh... yeah maybe my problem was doing to good a job in training my Chinese teams.

Here's a clue... when they say yes, that does not mean yes they will do something, that means yes they hear you. That one's for free

Yes, anyone working with outsourcing learns that fast, you know what you're talking about. I'd tweak it and say they mean "I will try," but the same gist. Indians are the same. Unfortunately they won't ask questions, they will try and try and do a lot of work even if they don't understand what you want and it was all wasted. You learn to ask questions and put in verification processes very quickly.

Another challenge is they are so hierarchical. This may have affected me as management more than you, you can say. I had one Indian project manager who kept saying yes. Everything was working great when he was working with American teams, he was a bright guy. But when he said yes when I asked for things in the Indian organization, nothing happened. I pulled him in my office and asked him what's up, I said you clearly get what I want, why does nothing happen when I ask you to do something in your organization?

He said he has to follow Indian procedure, he can't do anything with my requests other than relay it to his manager. His manager was on his side well below my level, so it never got up to my level, it was buried in bureaucracy. I asked if he could escalate it. He said he loves the American way, but no he can't, it would end his career.

Then he had an idea, he said when I want something, he can tell me who to go to, just don't mention he told me. Wow, that worked. When he gave me the name of the person with the authority to do it, they couldn't say no to me and it got done. I drove that model for all my teams after that, I asked the people working with me to direct me to who had the authority to do it, it was a game changer.

The bottom line is as you are discussing, culture is huge, and it's different for Indians, Chinese, Mexicans. Though they are all hierarchical, that part's similar.

With the Indians more often than not it depends on what caste they are in, whether they follow the hierarchy or not. Funny story, I had this one "upper" caste Engineer working for me, we were a pretty casual group, jeans and t-shirts... This fresh out was bragging about his "caste" and giving me the I don't have to take direction from you BS... lol I come into work the next day in a suit and tie, took him aside gave him the set jaw discussion... explained to him why his ideas were wrong, explained to him my family history (father director of engineering at allied signal, grandfather lead engineer at Los Alamos), and that I don't care what his caste is it's below mine at this facility, and if he didn't like it I'd move him to the loading dock... guy shit his pants, was one of the best workers I had from then on.. gave the best Christmas presents.

My last stint at a big corp, was a top band Engineer / lead architect, essentially equivalent in level to a Senior Manager. Thus I was able to bridge those gaps. But yes management escalations are not doable in many organizations, or if you do expect those folks to find someone to knife you in the back some time later. Politics in these companies... you'd think they would've sent the Engineers to political science classes instead of agile/scrum classes.

Certainly how they follow the hierarchy is hugely dependent on caste, but "whether" they follow the hierarchy is not true at all that I ever saw. The only exception would be American born Indians. The government keeps trying to kill the caste system, they don't seem to be getting anywhere. It'll take generations if it works.

I never had a problem with the "stabbing in the back," but even though I was busting through their hierarchy, I always learned the system and did it the right way. It's very important not to disrespect them in their own organization. If you do, they will do what you want, but certainly I could see them hugely resenting you for it. Respect is a big thing to them. I just learned to learn the inner workings and how go to the right person. I didn't bust their balls.

 

[Synthaholic]

This thread has firmly established that government indeed creates jobs.