Zone1 Serious question. Idols. Worship. Etc.

[Meriweather]

Wow. Took that personally, didn't you? It was just a question, not condemnation. And yes, it IS what I see. Look at all the pomp and ceremony about the coronation going on in Englad at Westminster. It's all very beautiful. But my brain asks what the Lord would think of how His House is being used to worship a man..or woman...being crowned.

Considering your final paragraph, I do wonder who is taking this personally.

I sincerely doubt anyone worships anyone being crowned, inaugurated, or elected. In the Catholic Church, worship is reserved for God alone. Pomp and ceremony is not reserved for elected officials. It is what graduation ceremonies, weddings, and Hollywood awards are all about--art exhibitions as well. If pomp and ceremony and art are worthy of condemnation, then your objection should focus on that--not where it takes place.

The objection that kings, graduates, and brides are honored in their churches, is in no way "worship" of any person. Bringing an object into church does not turn it into an idol.

The main point, however, is a non-Catholic deciding what Catholics are "really" doing. I merely pointed out that no one tells children who salute the flag what they are "really" doing. Why not ask Catholics...and learn.

I teach. Informing the unknowing comes natural. It is nothing personal. Remember, I am not requiring you to learn...just thought you might be interested. If not, I apologize for disturbing you.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Hi, I'm a pompous ass. I presume to teach you things because I can't help myself. Think of me as an innocent flower.. please!

 

[Meriweather]

Not just catholics. ALL churches do this except the poor ones. And in my opinion, that is where God truly is. In the forests. In the deserts. By the ocean. In poor places made of mud or adobe where the people gather to glory in His name and not the statues, the fancy windows, the carved wood designs, etc.

Catholic Churches is where people gather--it is definitely not where God is contained. God is everywhere. People, whether individually or as a group, can worship God anywhere. No place--not even a church--is frowned upon.

 

[Meriweather]

Hi, I'm a pompous ass. I presume to teach you things because I can't help myself. Think of me as an innocent flower.. please!

Okay! For any issue--and almost anything--there are a huge number of perspectives. Think of living in a castle, but confining yourself to a single closet when there are numerous rooms and four floors to explore--which expand into the great outdoors. I gather perspectives and share them.

And you, innocent flower, what is your perspective of yourself? Are you a rose or an oleander?

 

[Grumblenuts]

I gather perspectives and share them.

God is everywhere. People, whether individually or as a group, can worship God anywhere. No place--not even a church--is frowned upon.

Just sharing perspectives, are we?

 

[mak2]

Idolatry is a real problem with most if not all people. From the love of money to the love of hot flesh & everything in between including power & control, somebody somewhere has idolized it. There appears to me to be a fine line between idolatry & love but I lack the capability to know where that line is on the scale. When does the need for $$$$$ turn into idolatry of $$$$$? When does ones love of food turn into idolatry of food? Your question I have wrestled with for over half a century for I have my own hang ups that I just can't forget/let go of. Like I said above, idolatry is a real problem for most if not all folks, but WHEN does a drive, love, infatuation, obsession &/or fixation become actual idolatry???

I remember back when I was a kid the sermon was about NFL football being idol worship.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Not just catholics. ALL churches do this except the poor ones. And in my opinion, that is where God truly is. In the forests. In the deserts. By the ocean. In poor places made of mud or adobe where the people gather to glory in His name and not the statues, the fancy windows, the carved wood designs, etc.

No, most churches don't make literal idols. Yeah, every ody has idols but only the Catholic Church and near relatives worship dead saints and statues

 

[Meriweather]

Just sharing perspectives, are we?

I am...are you joining in?

The Bible has many examples where people gathered for worship outside. I find it interesting they often chose high places.

 

[Meriweather]

only the Catholic Church and near relatives worship dead saints and statues

No, Catholics don't. Ask a Catholic.

 

[Grumblenuts]

I am...are you joining in?

The Bible has many examples where people gathered for worship outside. I find it interesting they often chose high places.

Sounds very deliberately off topic to me. But what do I know?

 

[Meriweather]

Sounds very deliberately off topic to me. But what do I know?

Really? It was something the OP brought up in her Post #33. I was agreeing with her in Post #43. Your post above is a great example of participating in different perspectives of the same thread. You and I are seeing different things!

 

[there4eyeM]

The signal trait of a supreme being ("God") is being able to create reality from nothingness. Animals and other creatures people have named show no evidence of doing this. Humans do.

 

[BreezeWood]

False comparison. Animal life is not human life, and this is obvious in the Bible from beginning to end.

That's not an emotional outburst at all; it's the most solid understanding of "made in the image of God".

that's what the liar moses claimed and is recorded in the 4th century c-bible ...

jesus taught -

And God said, Let us make life in our image, after our likeness: and the fish of the sea, and the fowl of the air, and the cattle, and all the earth, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

that humanity is as all else the same in their likeness as that of the heavens ... funny how the former atheists turned christians are the furthest from the true 1st century events.

sour sue ... maybe reconsider your reason to become one of them, a christian, the crucifiers.

 

[Grumblenuts]

I was agreeing with her in Post #43.

No, you weren't.

The Bible has many examples where people gathered for worship outside. I find it interesting they often chose high places.

Gracie never even mentioned "The Bible" and the fact that Catholics in particular have displayed their idols and crucifixes in high places is thoroughly unsurprising.

 

[BreezeWood]

I'm glad you brought this up, because I really believe this is a HUGE misunderstanding of being made in the image of God. Your take on it is very common, but I think it is profoundly wrong. Why? Ok, now you are probably going to be offended by what I'm going to say, but I'm not singling you out. I think MOST Christians have this same mindset about "being made in the image of God." Here's the problem: it's not only an incomplete understanding, imo, but it is rooted in pride. It's a very anthropocentric and prideful way of thinking about being made in God's image. It pretty much boils down to "Humans are made in Gods' image, animals are not, so because we are so much more advanced and important than them, it's OK to eat or use them as we see fit."

There are so many problems with that I don't even know where to begin.

First of all, there are different ideas on what it means to be made in God's image. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the standard view seems to be that it means we were created with certain (nonphysical) characteristics of God. For example, we are rational, volitional agents, with an understanding of right and wrong. Like God is Spirit, we are spiritual beings. The problem with that view is that we aren't the only ones God created who hold those qualities. Even animals have some reasoning abilities, and they certainly have their own will. And according to the bible, animals have a spirit and soul. Also, angels have those qualities. So that means either angels were also created in the image of God...OR, being made in the image of God means something more than that.

My view is that it means more than just having certain characteristics of God. I believe it also is about our unique role, or "job" we were given. Just as God rules over us and all creation, we were given the job to rule over the animals and to take care of them. In Genesis 1:26, the concept of being made in God's image is in the very same sentence about dominion, so those two concepts are linked. I'll underline the pertinent part:

Genesis 1:26​

​

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”​

So we were given dominion AS image-bearers of God, which means we are not to rule in a selfish, prideful, tyrannical and merciless way... because that is not the way God rules. But dominion in God's image means to rule over the animals reflecting the way God rules, which is with LOVE, MERCY, selflessness, compassion, justice and a genuine caring for their well-being.

Getting back to what you said that caused me to reply....having a prideful, anthropocentric mindset about "being made in God's image" is the exact opposite of what it's about! Was Jesus prideful or humble? Did Jesus come to be served, or to serve? Did Jesus think that because He is so far above us that means He should selfishly use or abuse us because we are not as important as Him? Of course not.

Jesus laid down His life for us, even though obviously God is infinitely more advanced and "above" us in every way. So since were were made in God's image and likeness - should we be humble about being above the animals, or proud of it while we look down our noses at those "unimportant" animals that are "not like us"?

We were given a kingship. But what kind of "kings" do we want to be? Selfish, prideful, self-serving tyrant kings? Or like Jesus, who is the King of kings? Jesus clearly said, "Be merciful, as your Father is merciful".... He did not say "Because you were made in God's image and the animals weren't, they don't matter, treat them any way you wish." No. God created the animals, LOVES them, and knows every single one of them. He even made covenants with the animals, and they are included in His promise of the beautiful future world of peace and harmony which will be a restoration of HIS intent from the start. (See Isaiah 11:6-9)

Here's a video I made on this topic. It's part of a series of videos:

Just as God rules over us and all creation, we were given the job to rule over the animals ...

perhaps there is hope for buttercup ... the first half anyway -

good luck, there is a reason christians love so much their guns, automatic and megaclips.

 

[Gracie]

I have never worn a cross pendant. But, in my old age, I decided I would when I stumbled across a really pretty one recently...and I wear it from time to time. Because it's pretty. And because I want Christ to know I love Him and am so sorry He suffered so much. I do not worship it. Nor do I go to fancy churches who lock their doors because someone might steal something worth money. God's house is for all. Even thieves. Why are the damn doors locked? I HAVE been to a catholic church. Very pretty. But sitting under a tree with birds singing is more of a choir than what's in a church. Especially the wealthy ones, with popes who think they speak for God, sit on millions of dollars as if God likes that wealth, and reverends/preachers/etc who do the same like that Joel guy who shut doors during floods. I could go on, but why bother. It's all just personal opinion and I thought might be a good discussion...and help me decide if wearing that pendant would make me feel guilty with an idol so many worship.

Say 3 hail marys and go in peace. You are forgiven. Like...ok? Who says? YOU? And why hail Mary? Just another opinion of mine of the Catholic church. Don't even get me started on the Mormons, Islamics, Baptists, et al.

I'll just admire the cross when I wear it. And thank Him when I am feeling a pity party coming on and that cross reminds me what HE went thru, which shuts me up pretty damn quick.

 

[BothWings]

EASY:

1. The calf is just a graven image, a piece of metal formed to resemble a shape. It is dead, inert, without life nor spirit.
2. A Holy Man is a living embodiment, a plenary portion of the Living Spirit of God existing here on Earth sanctioned that you may learn from, talk to and go to for Divine Intervention.

I'm not very religious let alone Catholic, but I can totally see the difference. If a religion doesn't have its living, breathing proponents who lead and teach the ways of the religion....how does the religion even exist?

 

[toobfreak]

I'm not very religious let alone Catholic, but I can totally see the difference. If a religion doesn't have its living, breathing proponents who lead and teach the ways of the religion....how does the religion even exist?

Well, it is even more than that but I don't like trying to impose my religious views and ideas upon others unless they really ask. I actually grew up an atheist, a scientist deeply convinced religion was absolute bunk until somewhere around my early 20's, I had a profound epiphany followed by a series of deep personal experiences that proved to me quite the opposite.

But the question here is about priests, and while I'm neither Catholic nor truly still even a (good) christian anymore, I understand that a genuine holy man (of which I doubt many priests and reverends really are), a true holy man is not only in touch with the Supreme, but actually a chosen plenary portion of the Creator with whom ordinary common people can relate to or get a sense of God from via a physical presence they can see, reach out to and touch.

But the real question of God is that while many have faith and fewer make religion a big part of their lives or even career, real religious knowledge or experience isn't a matter of just reading the Bible or praying or wearing robes and beads, nor can God be logically proven or objectively observed and measured by slide-rule, real religion begins and rests deep within a person's self, what they call the spiritual heart, and one's success with religion is both a function of their past deeds, a function of one's inner purity and sincerity, and especially a function of divine grace.

So to those who really want to know, I will tell them that God is real. To those who want proof of Him handed them while standing on one leg doubting I will tell them you will never find Him that way, for God leads each person to whatever level and place they are ready for, not what they hope to prove to others.

 

[Gracie]

Careful. SweetSue92 believes you are being self righteous starting a topic of how others worship their gods -- probably, unless she agrees with you.

Apparently you're not supposed to challenge anyone's ideas. Jesus and the apostles never did that (sarcasm)

I found out quite some time ago she isn't sweet. I have her on iggie.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I'm glad you brought this up, because I really believe this is a HUGE misunderstanding of being made in the image of God. Your take on it is very common, but I think it is profoundly wrong. Why? Ok, now you are probably going to be offended by what I'm going to say, but I'm not singling you out. I think MOST Christians have this same mindset about "being made in the image of God." Here's the problem: it's not only an incomplete understanding, imo, but it is rooted in pride. It's a very anthropocentric and prideful way of thinking about being made in God's image. It pretty much boils down to "Humans are made in Gods' image, animals are not, so because we are so much more advanced and important than them, it's OK to eat or use them as we see fit."

There are so many problems with that I don't even know where to begin.

First of all, there are different ideas on what it means to be made in God's image. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the standard view seems to be that it means we were created with certain (nonphysical) characteristics of God. For example, we are rational, volitional agents, with an understanding of right and wrong. Like God is Spirit, we are spiritual beings. The problem with that view is that we aren't the only ones God created who hold those qualities. Even animals have some reasoning abilities, and they certainly have their own will. And according to the bible, animals have a spirit and soul. Also, angels have those qualities. So that means either angels were also created in the image of God...OR, being made in the image of God means something more than that.

My view is that it means more than just having certain characteristics of God. I believe it also is about our unique role, or "job" we were given. Just as God rules over us and all creation, we were given the job to rule over the animals and to take care of them. In Genesis 1:26, the concept of being made in God's image is in the very same sentence about dominion, so those two concepts are linked. I'll underline the pertinent part:

Genesis 1:26​

​

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”​

So we were given dominion AS image-bearers of God, which means we are not to rule in a selfish, prideful, tyrannical and merciless way... because that is not the way God rules. But dominion in God's image means to rule over the animals reflecting the way God rules, which is with LOVE, MERCY, selflessness, compassion, justice and a genuine caring for their well-being.

Getting back to what you said that caused me to reply....having a prideful, anthropocentric mindset about "being made in God's image" is the exact opposite of what it's about! Was Jesus prideful or humble? Did Jesus come to be served, or to serve? Did Jesus think that because He is so far above us that means He should selfishly use or abuse us because we are not as important as Him? Of course not.

Jesus laid down His life for us, even though obviously God is infinitely more advanced and "above" us in every way. So since were were made in God's image and likeness - should we be humble about being above the animals, or proud of it while we look down our noses at those "unimportant" animals that are "not like us"?

We were given a kingship. But what kind of "kings" do we want to be? Selfish, prideful, self-serving tyrant kings? Or like Jesus, who is the King of kings? Jesus clearly said, "Be merciful, as your Father is merciful".... He did not say "Because you were made in God's image and the animals weren't, they don't matter, treat them any way you wish." No. God created the animals, LOVES them, and knows every single one of them. He even made covenants with the animals, and they are included in His promise of the beautiful future world of peace and harmony which will be a restoration of HIS intent from the start. (See Isaiah 11:6-9)

Here's a video I made on this topic. It's part of a series of videos:

^^^
THIS is a GOD inspired reply