Zone1 Serious question. Idols. Worship. Etc.

[ActionJackson]

Technically it infiltrated the CATHOLIC church. God's true church does not bow down to idols

Quite true. That's why I put the world “Christian” in quotes. In real life conversations … I differentiate between Christians and Catholics. Two, different religions.

 

[there4eyeM]

The essential element is materialism. Jesus' message is that what is important is not material. Putting anything material at the center is a diversion from what counts.

 

[luiza]

Wearing a cross is important as it reminds me of what Jesus experienced for our sins. I often touch the cross throughout the day and say a small prayer. As for the pope, as with wearing a.cross or not, following him and his words is an individual choice.

Pity you don't regularly bang a few nails through your hands and feet to deflect from you giving us your snivelling posts .
That will guarantee you think of Jesus big time .

 

[SweetSue92]

Careful. SweetSue92 believes you are being self righteous starting a topic of how others worship their gods -- probably, unless she agrees with you.

Apparently you're not supposed to challenge anyone's ideas. Jesus and the apostles never did that (sarcasm)

You are allowed to not eat meat if that's how you want to follow Christ. I'm not telling you that you SHOULD eat meat. You are telling me I SHOULD NOT eat meat to follow Christ.

See the difference?

 

[surada]

Acquiring wealth is a god for most people

Not necessarily. Nothing matters to Trump except money so there's that. Some have a gift for making money.. others may have a gift for healing or music or teaching etc. Doesn't strike me as idolatry.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Some have a gift for making money..

Printers?

 

[surada]

Printers?

Maybe manufacturing and selling printers.

 

[norwegen]

Acquiring wealth is a god for most people

Irrelevant to the other people.

 

[Meriweather]

People bow, kneel, worship statues. Mary, Jesus on the Cross, etc. They also "grovel to some guy that claims he speaks for God. For example, look at what happens when a pope dies..or is admitted as a new pope. The idoltry in churches of Mary, of Jesus himself. The scraping and bowing and showing love and admiration to an inanimate subject. Even wearing a cross pendant around your neck. Is this not idoltry?

This is what you "see"? It is only great ignorance on display. It can be compared to declaring that with the Pledge of Allegiance we teach all students is about them being loyal to a piece of cloth--and that being true to a piece of cloth is all that matters.

Oh! The flag is just a symbol of an entire country? The stars are symbols for each state, the stripes are symbols of the original thirteen colonies?! Who would have guessed!

Should people be against baptism? I mean who could ever believe that dipping a person in water removes all their wrong doings! Any rational person would never be taken in by this any more than they would be taken in by pledging fealty to a piece of cloth. Baptism...outward sign/symbol of the inward reality. So catch a clue when visiting a Catholic Church, where there are symbols of the invisible reality.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

You are allowed to not eat meat if that's how you want to follow Christ. I'm not telling you that you SHOULD eat meat. You are telling me I SHOULD NOT eat meat to follow Christ.

See the difference?

That isn't the topic of the thread I started. If you can't debate a topic, just stay the hell out of it. You react with EMOTION.

My thread starters are to challenge your comfortable beliefs. Nobody is for ing you to contribute your emotional outbursts

Now try your "logic" on the abortion issue:

You are allowed to not have an abortion if that's how you want to follow Christ. I'm not telling you that you should have an abortion. You are telling ME I SHOULD NOT have an abortion to follow Christ.

See the difference?

Yes. So e things are WRONG in the eyes of God. That's why He said, "In VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME"

We worship God on HIS terms, not ours. It's our responsibility to learn the mind of God in all things, not demand He accept us on our terms

 

[buttercup]

It's our responsibility to learn the mind of God in all things, not demand He accept us on our terms

QFT!

 

[Gracie]

This is what you "see"? It is only great ignorance on display. It can be compared to declaring that with the Pledge of Allegiance we teach all students is about them being loyal to a piece of cloth--and that being true to a piece of cloth is all that matters.

Wow. Took that personally, didn't you? It was just a question, not condemnation. And yes, it IS what I see. Look at all the pomp and ceremony about the coronation going on in Englad at Westminster. It's all very beautiful. But my brain asks what the Lord would think of how His House is being used to worship a man..or woman...being crowned.

So go ahead and pick that apart too. I am asking questions that float around in my head..not aiming at anyone in particular. Chill out. Or fuck off. Whichever floats your boat with your sanctimonious assumptions.

 

[Gracie]

Technically it infiltrated the CATHOLIC church. God's true church does not bow down to idols

Not just catholics. ALL churches do this except the poor ones. And in my opinion, that is where God truly is. In the forests. In the deserts. By the ocean. In poor places made of mud or adobe where the people gather to glory in His name and not the statues, the fancy windows, the carved wood designs, etc.

 

[SweetSue92]

That isn't the topic of the thread I started. If you can't debate a topic, just stay the hell out of it. You react with EMOTION.

My thread starters are to challenge your comfortable beliefs. Nobody is for ing you to contribute your emotional outbursts

Now try your "logic" on the abortion issue:

You are allowed to not have an abortion if that's how you want to follow Christ. I'm not telling you that you should have an abortion. You are telling ME I SHOULD NOT have an abortion to follow Christ.

See the difference?

Yes. So e things are WRONG in the eyes of God. That's why He said, "In VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME"

We worship God on HIS terms, not ours. It's our responsibility to learn the mind of God in all things, not demand He accept us on our terms

False comparison. Animal life is not human life, and this is obvious in the Bible from beginning to end.

That's not an emotional outburst at all; it's the most solid understanding of "made in the image of God".

 

[buttercup]

False comparison. Animal life is not human life, and this is obvious in the Bible from beginning to end.

That's not an emotional outburst at all; it's the most solid understanding of "made in the image of God".

I'm glad you brought this up, because I really believe this is a HUGE misunderstanding of being made in the image of God. Your take on it is very common, but I think it is profoundly wrong. Why? Ok, now you are probably going to be offended by what I'm going to say, but I'm not singling you out. I think MOST Christians have this same mindset about "being made in the image of God." Here's the problem: it's not only an incomplete understanding, imo, but it is rooted in pride. It's a very anthropocentric and prideful way of thinking about being made in God's image. It pretty much boils down to "Humans are made in Gods' image, animals are not, so because we are so much more advanced and important than them, it's OK to eat or use them as we see fit."

There are so many problems with that I don't even know where to begin.

First of all, there are different ideas on what it means to be made in God's image. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the standard view seems to be that it means we were created with certain (nonphysical) characteristics of God. For example, we are rational, volitional agents, with an understanding of right and wrong. Like God is Spirit, we are spiritual beings. The problem with that view is that we aren't the only ones God created who hold those qualities. Even animals have some reasoning abilities, and they certainly have their own will. And according to the bible, animals have a spirit and soul. Also, angels have those qualities. So that means either angels were also created in the image of God...OR, being made in the image of God means something more than that.

My view is that it means more than just having certain characteristics of God. I believe it also is about our unique role, or "job" we were given. Just as God rules over us and all creation, we were given the job to rule over the animals and to take care of them. In Genesis 1:26, the concept of being made in God's image is in the very same sentence about dominion, so those two concepts are linked. I'll underline the pertinent part:

Genesis 1:26​

​

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”​

So we were given dominion AS image-bearers of God, which means we are not to rule in a selfish, prideful, tyrannical and merciless way... because that is not the way God rules. But dominion in God's image means to rule over the animals reflecting the way God rules, which is with LOVE, MERCY, selflessness, compassion, justice and a genuine caring for their well-being.

Getting back to what you said that caused me to reply....having a prideful, anthropocentric mindset about "being made in God's image" is the exact opposite of what it's about! Was Jesus prideful or humble? Did Jesus come to be served, or to serve? Did Jesus think that because He is so far above us that means He should selfishly use or abuse us because we are not as important as Him? Of course not.

Jesus laid down His life for us, even though obviously God is infinitely more advanced and "above" us in every way. So since were were made in God's image and likeness - should we be humble about being above the animals, or proud of it while we look down our noses at those "unimportant" animals that are "not like us"?

We were given a kingship. But what kind of "kings" do we want to be? Selfish, prideful, self-serving tyrant kings? Or like Jesus, who is the King of kings? Jesus clearly said, "Be merciful, as your Father is merciful".... He did not say "Because you were made in God's image and the animals weren't, they don't matter, treat them any way you wish." No. God created the animals, LOVES them, and knows every single one of them. He even made covenants with the animals, and they are included in His promise of the beautiful future world of peace and harmony which will be a restoration of HIS intent from the start. (See Isaiah 11:6-9)

Here's a video I made on this topic. It's part of a series of videos:

 

[SweetSue92]

I'm glad you brought this up, because I really believe this is a HUGE misunderstanding of being made in the image of God. Your take on it is very common, but I think it is profoundly wrong. Why? Ok, now you are probably going to be offended by what I'm going to say, but I'm not singling you out. I think MOST Christians have this same mindset about "being made in the image of God." Here's the problem: it's not only an incomplete understanding, imo, but it is rooted in pride. It's a very anthropocentric and prideful way of thinking about being made in God's image. It pretty much boils down to "Humans are made in Gods' image, animals are not, so because we are so much more advanced and important than them, it's OK to eat or use them as we see fit."

There are so many problems with that I don't even know where to begin.

First of all, there are different ideas on what it means to be made in God's image. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the standard view seems to be that it means we were created with certain (nonphysical) characteristics of God. For example, we are rational, volitional agents, with an understanding of right and wrong. Like God is Spirit, we are spiritual beings. The problem with that view is that we aren't the only ones God created who hold those qualities. Even animals have some reasoning abilities, and they certainly have their own will. And according to the bible, animals have a spirit and soul. Also, angels have those qualities. So that means either angels were also created in the image of God...OR, being made in the image of God means something more than that.

My view is that it means more than just having certain characteristics of God. I believe it also is about our unique role, or "job" we were given. Just as God rules over us and all creation, we were given the job to rule over the animals and to take care of them. In Genesis 1:26, the concept of being made in God's image is in the very same sentence about dominion, so those two concepts are linked. I'll underline the pertinent part:

Genesis 1:26​

​

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”​

So we were given dominion AS image-bearers of God, which means we are not to rule in a selfish, prideful, tyrannical and merciless way... because that is not the way God rules. But dominion in God's image means to rule over the animals reflecting the way God rules, which is with LOVE, MERCY, selflessness, compassion, justice and a genuine caring for their well-being.

Getting back to what you said that caused me to reply....having a prideful, anthropocentric mindset about "being made in God's image" is the exact opposite of what it's about! Was Jesus prideful or humble? Did Jesus come to be served, or to serve? Did Jesus think that because He is so far above us that means He should selfishly use or abuse us because we are not as important as Him? Of course not.

Jesus laid down His life for us, even though obviously God is infinitely more advanced and "above" us in every way. So since were were made in God's image and likeness - should we be humble about being above the animals, or proud of it while we look down our noses at those "unimportant" animals that are "not like us"?

We were given a kingship. But what kind of "kings" do we want to be? Selfish, prideful, self-serving tyrant kings? Or like Jesus, who is the King of kings? Jesus clearly said, "Be merciful, as your Father is merciful".... He did not say "Because you were made in God's image and the animals weren't, they don't matter, do what you want with them." No. God created the animals, LOVES them, and knows every single one of them. He even made covenants with the animals, and they are included in His promise of the beautiful future world of peace and harmony which will be a restoration of HIS intent from the start. (See Isaiah 11:6-9)

Here's a video I made on this topic. It's part of a series of videos:

Jesus Himself rode a donkey, ate fish, and told stories about animal sacrifice, which God instituted and upheld for generations and generations.

Yes, we are to have dominion over the animals. That includes not being cruel or wasteful.

But no, they are not like us. We are image-bearers and they are not.

 

[buttercup]

Jesus Himself rode a donkey, ate fish, and told stories about animal sacrifice, which God instituted and upheld for generations and generations.

Yes, we are to have dominion over the animals. That includes not being cruel or wasteful.

But no, they are not like us. We are image-bearers and they are not.

Sorry, but I'm not going to take the time to reply if you don't take the time to address ANYTHING I said. That's not the way I like to have discussions or debates. First address what I said, then I will address what you said. Thanks Sue.

 

[buttercup]

But I have to leave anyway, because it's getting super late here. Maybe Death Angel will reply to you, if not I'll try to get back to this tomorrow if I have time, but not if you're not going to address anything I said.

 

[Kruska]

People bow, kneel, worship statues. Mary, Jesus on the Cross, etc. They also "grovel to some guy that claims he speaks for God. For example, look at what happens when a pope dies..or is admitted as a new pope. The idoltry in churches of Mary, of Jesus himself. The scraping and bowing and showing love and admiration to an inanimate subject. Even wearing a cross pendant around your neck. Is this not idoltry?

That is essentially what e.g. Martin Luther was all about, or Thomas Cromwell - kind of a crusade against idolatry - thus resulting into the Protestant movement.
Whereby if one is well read onto this topic - the "actual" reason was far more, due to the Church making huge money out of idolatry.

 

[SweetSue92]

Sorry, but I'm not going to take the time to reply if you don't take the time to address ANYTHING I said. That's not the way I like to have discussions or debates. First address what I said, then I will address what you said. Thanks Sue.

Okay, here's just a small wrong take in that sea of wrong takes--it is not prideful for Jesus to say "before Abraham was, I AM". It is not prideful for him to tell the High Priest, in Matthew 26, that he would see "the Son of Man seated at the right hand of power..."

That is not prideful; it's true. It's his role. It is not the role itself that is prideful; it's in how He used the role.

It is not prideful for us to see we, as humans, are uniquely made in the image of God. It's our role. The Bible is very big on roles. It is only prideful if we misuse our role, and are cruel or wasteful in how we treat animals.

But you won't even accept that. Again if your conscience is offended by eating animals, don't do it. But do not tell ME it is prohibited for ME to do so.