Zone1 Serious question. Idols. Worship. Etc.

[Carl in Michigan]

perhaps there is hope for buttercup ... the first half anyway -

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good luck, there is a reason christians love so much their guns, automatic and megaclips.

I pray for your healing

 

[Carl in Michigan]

No, Catholics don't. Ask a Catholic.

Reality says otherwise

You shall not make for yourselves any graven image...you shall not BOW DOWN TO THEM, NOR SERVE THEM

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I'm not very religious let alone Catholic, but I can totally see the difference. If a religion doesn't have its living, breathing proponents who lead and teach the ways of the religion....how does the religion even exist?

Except HE LIVES. If you want to know His will, STUDY HIS WORDS. And you can ask. If you ask with a sincere heart, and have faith, He will respond

 

[BothWings]

Except HE LIVES. If you want to know His will, STUDY HIS WORDS. And you can ask. If you ask with a sincere heart, and have faith, He will respond

I know how it goes.
I just don't subscribe to organized religion, period. That doesn't mean I'm not spiritual.

 

[Gracie]

But the question here is about priests, and while I'm neither Catholic nor truly still even a (good) christian anymore, I understand that a genuine holy man (of which I doubt many priests and reverends really are), a true holy man is not only in touch with the Supreme, but actually a chosen plenary portion of the Creator with whom ordinary common people can relate to or get a sense of God from via a physical presence they can see, reach out to and touch.

After so many years of questions and musings, experiences with church doctrines of different beliefs, I have come to the conclusion there is only one race of people....one group...however you want to call them that are genuine....and that is Native Americans and their Great Spirit. They revere this Great Spirit. whom we know as Lord, God, Jehovah, etc.

The problem, as I see it, is it is extremely difficult to believe when God no longer walks with us. With anyone. And Jesus was murdered so He was here only briefly. So we have to go on faith alone, even in the silence. Ah! But is there silence? Or do we just not listen? Native Americans do. Trees, animals, wind, rivers....all speak to those who will hear.

“Listen to the air. You can hear it, feel it, smell it, taste it. Woniya wakan—the holy air—which renews all by its breath. Woniya, woniya wakan—spirit, life, breath, renewal—it means all that. Woniya—we sit together, don’t touch,
but something is there; we feel it between us, as a presence. A good way to start thinking about nature, talk about it. Rather talk to it, talk to the rivers, to the lakes, to the winds as to our relatives.”
― John (Fire) Lame Deer, Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions
The Great Spirit is the concept of a life force, a Supreme Being or god known more specifically as Wakan Tanka in Lakota, Gitche Manitou in Algonquian, and by other, specific names in a number of Native American and First Nations cultures.

 

[BothWings]

After so many years of questions and musings, experiences with church doctrines of different beliefs, I have come to the conclusion there is only one race of people....one group...however you want to call them that are genuine....and that is Native Americans and their Great Spirit. They revere this Great Spirit. whom we know as Lord, God, Jehovah, etc.

The problem, as I see it, is it is extremely difficult to believe when God no longer walks with us. With anyone. And Jesus was murdered so He was here only briefly. So we have to go on faith alone, even in the silence. Ah! But is there silence? Or do we just not listen? Native Americans do. Trees, animals, wind, rivers....all speak to those who will hear.

“Listen to the air. You can hear it, feel it, smell it, taste it. Woniya wakan—the holy air—which renews all by its breath. Woniya, woniya wakan—spirit, life, breath, renewal—it means all that. Woniya—we sit together, don’t touch,
but something is there; we feel it between us, as a presence. A good way to start thinking about nature, talk about it. Rather talk to it, talk to the rivers, to the lakes, to the winds as to our relatives.”
― John (Fire) Lame Deer, Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions
The Great Spirit is the concept of a life force, a Supreme Being or god known more specifically as Wakan Tanka in Lakota, Gitche Manitou in Algonquian, and by other, specific names in a number of Native American and First Nations cultures.

I believe the name Wakantanka was used by quite a few tribes to refer to the one unifying spirit of all things, the sky god. Oh look, you wrote that already! How about that?? Yes, I agree that Wakantanka is where it's at.

...and the infinite totems through which it speaks when the moment is ripe.

 

[Meriweather]

Reality says otherwise

You shall not make for yourselves any graven image...you shall not BOW DOWN TO THEM, NOR SERVE THEM

You are aware of graven images that God ordered for the Ark of the Covenant and the Temple in Jerusalem? Remember the graven image of the snake?

In ancient times, people believed that carved images contained the power of the living animal. Today it can be more accurately compared with someone believing in their lucky rabbit's foot or lucky penny. Catholics discourage "lucky" objects because worship belongs to God alone, not to any inanimate object.

There never was any objection to art work (Ark of the Covenant and engravings in the Temple) or an object (such as the snake) used to focus one's faith, prayer, meditation to God.

Don't worry about Catholics. Like the original Temple and the Ark of the Covenant, we may include works of art in a holy place, but worship is reserved for God alone. No one believes a work of art/image has any supernatural power at all. That belief pretty much fell away during prehistoric times.

 

[SweetSue92]

Well, it is even more than that but I don't like trying to impose my religious views and ideas upon others unless they really ask. I actually grew up an atheist, a scientist deeply convinced religion was absolute bunk until somewhere around my early 20's, I had a profound epiphany followed by a series of deep personal experiences that proved to me quite the opposite.

But the question here is about priests, and while I'm neither Catholic nor truly still even a (good) christian anymore, I understand that a genuine holy man (of which I doubt many priests and reverends really are), a true holy man is not only in touch with the Supreme, but actually a chosen plenary portion of the Creator with whom ordinary common people can relate to or get a sense of God from via a physical presence they can see, reach out to and touch.

But the real question of God is that while many have faith and fewer make religion a big part of their lives or even career, real religious knowledge or experience isn't a matter of just reading the Bible or praying or wearing robes and beads, nor can God be logically proven or objectively observed and measured by slide-rule, real religion begins and rests deep within a person's self, what they call the spiritual heart, and one's success with religion is both a function of their past deeds, a function of one's inner purity and sincerity, and especially a function of divine grace.

So to those who really want to know, I will tell them that God is real. To those who want proof of Him handed them while standing on one leg doubting I will tell them you will never find Him that way, for God leads each person to whatever level and place they are ready for, not what they hope to prove to others.

"The poet only asks to get his head into the heavens. The logician asks to get the heavens into his head. And it is his head that splits."--G.K. Chesterton

 

[Grumblenuts]

The Great Spirit is the concept of a life force, a Supreme Being or god known more specifically as Wakan Tanka in Lakota, Gitche Manitou in Algonquian, and by other, specific names in a number of Native American and First Nations cultures.

Hard not to love such notions, but the ultimate force (The Aether) supports all life and non-life equally. Worship it or not. It neither judges nor cares. It just is and always was, enabling all we are, perceive and do. We can dismiss it or try to make use of it to better sustain ourselves and our progeny.. meaning of life?

 

[buttercup]

Okay, here's just a small wrong take in that sea of wrong takes--it is not prideful for Jesus to say "before Abraham was, I AM". It is not prideful for him to tell the High Priest, in Matthew 26, that he would see "the Son of Man seated at the right hand of power..."

That is not prideful; it's true. It's his role. It is not the role itself that is prideful; it's in how He used the role.

It is not prideful for us to see we, as humans, are uniquely made in the image of God. It's our role. The Bible is very big on roles. It is only prideful if we misuse our role, and are cruel or wasteful in how we treat animals.

But you won't even accept that. Again if your conscience is offended by eating animals, don't do it. But do not tell ME it is prohibited for ME to do so.

Thanks for your reply. I agree that there's nothing prideful about simply stating that we're made in the image of God. So if that's what you thought I was was saying, you misunderstood.

You said it's only prideful if we misuse our role. Well, not exactly. The pride manifests when we misuse our role, yes, but it starts with one's mindset. Being prideful that we are made in God's image and the animals aren't is so often used as a justification for doing whatever we want with animals. In these types of discussions, I can't tell you how many times I've heard Christians say, "Well, we were made in God's image, animals aren't" - as a reason why it's OK to eat them or think of them as mere resources. In fact, that seemed to be what you were saying in an earlier post.

So that's a very different matter than simply stating that we're made in God's image. Again, of course there's nothing wrong with stating that. It's when it is used as a reason to think of animals as disposable, or objects put here just for us...THAT'S when it is prideful and man-centered.

I know we're off topic here (I'm sorry, Gracie) so there's just one more thing I want to say. I said this in my post last night but it bears repeating. Look at how much higher God is than us.... does simply being more advanced or having a higher role justify exploiting or being callous to those below? God is so far above us, but He doesn't exploit us or selfishly use and abuse us just because He can. That would amount to "might makes right" and that is not at all how God operates. Like I said last night, God is selfless, merciful, loving, kind.... and since we are made in God's image and given the unique role of dominion, we are supposed to reflect God's character and His dominion over us.... but mankind has done the exact opposite. We have taken the one job we were given, and turned it upside down to the point of it being truly diabolical. A selfish exploitative tyrannical dominion is of the devil, not of God. And I truly believe this is a major blindspot among Christians. Don't get me wrong. I think for many people it's not something they do on purpose, but it comes from a genuine unawareness of just how bad the animal industries are. I participated in it just like everyone else, for many years, because I simply didn't realize exactly what was going on with behind closed doors in those industries. And like most people I didn't make the connection between what was on my plate and what existed originally, a sentient animal that is no different than a dog or cat in all the ways that matter.

Ok, that was more than just 'one more thing', so I'll stop here.

 

[Gracie]

Love ya Buttercup. No need to apologize. Threads go hither and yon and that's the whole point. Differing opinions. Except when one tries to ....cough...."teach" others how wrong (or ignorant" they are when they do not agree with her.

 

[BreezeWood]

Hard not to love such notions, but the ultimate force (The Aether) supports all life and non-life equally. Worship it or not. It neither judges nor cares. It just is and always was, enabling all we are, perceive and do. We can dismiss it or try to make use of it to better sustain ourselves and our progeny.. meaning of life?

- everything is alive, the elements more relate to your equality than physiology that has with it a spiritual content whether known by the aether, grumblnuts - or not ...

 

[Ringo]

All believers are atheists in relation to other people's gods

It was Christians who, by denying the gods of foreign nations, paved the way for atheism
Ancient pagans treated foreign gods with respect.
Polytheism disposes to it - if their people have different gods, each of which is not a sin to worship, then others may also have some gods, about which they just do not know yet, why not?
Judaism, followed by its offshoot, Christianity, rejected all gods except the Hebrew gods altogether.
In fact, this rejection of other people's gods is the forerunner of atheism.
A precedent was set for unbelief in gods.
And if all but one of the gods were declared false, the final atheism would be one small step away from rejecting the Hebrew deity as well.
So the course of events is quite understandable:
from polytheism to monotheism,
from monotheism to atheism.
upward, from the delusions of antiquity to the truth.
"Many - one - zero" - the vector is quite clear and understandable, isn't it?
"When asked about my atheistic beliefs, I am always happy to answer that the interlocutor is himself an atheist regarding Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Odin, the Golden Calf and the Flying Macaroni Beast.
I just added one more god to that list.
We are all atheists with respect to most of the gods mankind has ever believed in.
Some of us just excluded one more god."
(c) Richard Dawkins.

 

[Meriweather]

So the course of events is quite understandable:
from polytheism to monotheism,
from monotheism to atheism.
upward, from the delusions of antiquity to the truth.
"Many - one - zero" - the vector is quite clear and understandable, isn't it?
"When asked about my atheistic beliefs, I am always happy to answer that the interlocutor is himself an atheist regarding Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Odin, the Golden Calf and the Flying Macaroni Beast.
I just added one more god to that list.

The ancient belief is that everyone had a God. We see this belief noted in the Bible where we can still see references to the God of Jacob, the God of Isaac, the God of Abraham. The God of Israel, the God of Babylon...and so on and so forth. It was Abraham who turned this theory upside down.

There is a story in Judaism that Abraham's family ran a shop of carvings that represented all kinds of Gods, so people might come in and select their God, the God to whom they felt closest. It was young Abraham's job to daily dust and polish all these statues, and as anyone might imagine, a rather boring job for a boy who would rather be running around outside.

I am re-telling this story so everyone can also understand how/why Abraham came by his insistence that there weren't many Gods, one for everyone--there was one God of all. We can accept that Abraham was given a divine revelation, or we can imagine a youngster who wished he only had one statue to dust and polish. Either way, one day Abraham was left in charge of the shop with the instructions to clean and polish. He was adamant that there was only one God of all. So he started smashing and demolishing all of the statues--but one. His father came back, looked at all his destroyed merchandise, and asked his son, What happened? Abraham pointed to the one remaining statue and said, "He did it."

The point is while we hear of the "God of Abraham", it is not how Abraham saw God. He saw God as the God of all. He did not go from many Gods to no God. He saw everyone's belief in having a God...as One God of all.

People recognize God's presence. What atheists may be blind to, is their passion to eliminate God will result in people recognizing God in his/her life and we return to idea of the God of Ringo, the God of Meriweather, the God of Gracie...and so on. In trying to destroy the idea of One God, up pop millions more. Ironic, is it not? (But not for people who recognize God Is.)

 

[Grumblenuts]

A rating is so sorely lacking.

First Known Use
1837, in the meaning defined above

 

[Meriweather]

A rating is so sorely lacking.

Good afternoon, Grumblenuts! I would ask how you are, but once again I see I have annoyed you. Here, allow me to blow you a kiss to make it all better!

 

[BreezeWood]

The ancient belief is that everyone had a God.

- in that sense would be most strictly from the advent of the anthropomorphized desert religions.

 

[Grumblenuts]

The ancient reality is that, though busy, people still naturally seek satisfying explanations for things. So, for lack of anything better (i.e., empirical evidence), they've tended to glom onto economically convenient, popular, politically satisfying beliefs. Careful application of scientific method has steadily been eliminating all such notions. The "gaps" left for gods to fill have shrunk to practically nothing. Younger generations have easily let it go and moved on. But old money continues ensuring a healthy market for those determined to keep serious consideration of supernatural silliness alive.. always dragging us backwards for their fun and profit.

Life is short. We only get one. Don't waste it studying, splaining, and apologizing for the perfectly understandable ignorance of our species throughout history. Celebrate being alive.. What we've learned just today and the possibility of using it to improve lives tomorrow.

 

[Gracie]

The not so haha funny fact is....there IS only ONE God. But like pets, we all choose to name that God to OUR own ear tickles. Islam. Buddha. Christian. Great Spirit. etc etc etc. He is all of them but humans need to claim Him as this or that, belongs to those and them. He has many names, but it's ONE spiritual being. Cuz thats how our imperfect minds roll.

Hmmm....more and more evidence is appearing that we here on earth are not alone. There are other worlds. Other beings. I wonder if they are so advanced (obviously they are), they have the same deity? If you were God, would you create just ONE world? Or would you keep creating until one of those worlds finally finds enlightenment? Me? I would have more than one and see which ones outwit, outlast, outplay (Survivor motto there, lol).

 

[Meriweather]

The ancient reality is that, though busy, people still naturally seek satisfying explanations for things. So, for lack of anything better (i.e., empirical evidence), they've tended to glom onto economically convenient, popular, politically satisfying beliefs. Careful application of scientific method has steadily been eliminating all such notions. The "gaps" left for gods to fill have shrunk to practically nothing. Younger generations have easily let it go and moved on. But old money continues ensuring a healthy market for those determined to keep serious consideration of supernatural silliness alive.. always dragging us backwards for their fun and profit.

Not a lot of the Bible is about science, so "God of science gaps" is not a great explanation for atheists to offer for why people of all times, nations, cultures believe in God. It seems it is the atheists who "naturally seek satisfying explanations" for the peoples overwhelming belief in God. So they came up with "God of the Gaps" for themselves.

More likely belief in God arose out of a recognition that we are more than just a body and a mind, and that our purpose is more than just shelter, eating, and sex. Even in ancient times people could observe in and among themselves they were also creators, and that different behaviors resulted in different results. They recognized there was not a universal personality or a universal mood. They recognized each person is unique. They recognized the power of words.

While knowledge of science can indeed explain nature and the world around us, I have yet to find a chapter in a science book about the physical science of how words and language came into being. Words come from within, instead of from without.