Should a bully be criminally charged if their victim commits suicide...

[rightwinger]

From a criminal charges standpoint you are right

The victim had a choice........should I quit or should I kill myself?

false dichotomy since those were not his only 2 choices

The two most obvious

He also could have chosen to punch her in the face

and get a criminal record for assault

Sometimes giving a good punch in the face is therapeutic

uh huh

Only figuratively of course

 

[Divine Wind]

This is really a tough one and there are many factors in play here so I don't see it as an open/shut case. But in direct answer to your question......I don't think the Manager should be held solely responsible, since he wasn't the only bully.
At 17, he's still a kid, still immature & impressionable.....MAYBE....since many kids that age are much 'older' than their years, so that would have some weight in the matter.
When it comes to adults committing suicide, it's never just one or two things that bring them to it but an accumulation of many factors over a period of time building up until they can't take it anymore. With a kid (again depending on his maturity level) it doesn't take as much to push them over the edge.

At anytime someone is contemplating suicide, they are not of 'their right mind'. To be THAT depressed, you don't think or reason or understand with a clear mind. So the line of personal responsibility is not so obvious

Ultimately, vanilla wafers

Agreed here. Unless it can be shown that the manager was directly responsible, it shouldn't be a criminal case. OTOH, it could easily be a civil suit. Fucking lawyers, ya know!

 

[rightwinger]

This is really a tough one and there are many factors in play here so I don't see it as an open/shut case. But in direct answer to your question......I don't think the Manager should be held solely responsible, since he wasn't the only bully.
At 17, he's still a kid, still immature & impressionable.....MAYBE....since many kids that age are much 'older' than their years, so that would have some weight in the matter.
When it comes to adults committing suicide, it's never just one or two things that bring them to it but an accumulation of many factors over a period of time building up until they can't take it anymore. With a kid (again depending on his maturity level) it doesn't take as much to push them over the edge.

At anytime someone is contemplating suicide, they are not of 'their right mind'. To be THAT depressed, you don't think or reason or understand with a clear mind. So the line of personal responsibility is not so obvious

Ultimately, vanilla wafers

Agreed here. Unless it can be shown that the manager was directly responsible, it shouldn't be a criminal case. OTOH, it could easily be a civil suit. Fucking lawyers, ya know!

I think a civil case against the restaurant and manager may be warranted

A criminal case opens the door to prosecute anyone who was mean to someone who eventually committed suicide

 

[Divine Wind]

"Former co-workers said Branham often ridiculed the teen and made him do tasks she wouldn’t request anyone else do, like cleaning the floors by hand while lying on his stomach. One fellow employee said the 21-year-old manager once threw a burger at Suttner because he made it incorrectly, the Tribune reported."

The ex-manager was 21. Not exactly the epitome of maturity herself.

Harley Branham: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

 

[rightwinger]

"Former co-workers said Branham often ridiculed the teen and made him do tasks she wouldn’t request anyone else do, like cleaning the floors by hand while lying on his stomach. One fellow employee said the 21-year-old manager once threw a burger at Suttner because he made it incorrectly, the Tribune reported."

The ex-manager was 21. Not exactly the epitome of maturity herself.

Harley Branham: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

The details are kind of sketchy
Throwing a burger at someone does not normally lead to suicide
There are reasons you may need to lay on your belly to clean under hard to reach places in the restaurant

I would like to see specific evidence she knew he was suicidal and was intentionally pushing him

 

[jillian]

The manager of a Missouri Dairy Queen was charged with involuntary manslaughter after a jury ruled the December suicide of her 17-year-old employee was the result of constant bullying he experienced at both school and work.

Missouri teen’s suicide ruled involuntary manslaughter
​

Here's the gist of the story. The manager was a douche, and this 17 year old was also bullied at school. He killed himself at home in his front yard.

In your opinion, should the manager face criminal charges?

I find it amazing that 50% of those responding to this thread voted no. The reality is it should depend on the circumstances.

And if anyone abuses another person that much, then they should accept responsibility for what they do.....particularly if they have reason to believe the person was vulnerable.

Thing is bullies almost always know their targets are vulnerable -- they're too cowardly to pick on people who will punch them in the face.

 

[Divine Wind]

"Former co-workers said Branham often ridiculed the teen and made him do tasks she wouldn’t request anyone else do, like cleaning the floors by hand while lying on his stomach. One fellow employee said the 21-year-old manager once threw a burger at Suttner because he made it incorrectly, the Tribune reported."

The ex-manager was 21. Not exactly the epitome of maturity herself.

Harley Branham: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

The details are kind of sketchy
Throwing a burger at someone does not normally lead to suicide
There are reasons you may need to lay on your belly to clean under hard to reach places in the restaurant

I would like to see specific evidence she knew he was suicidal and was intentionally pushing him

From what little was in the link, it appears the "belly" part was deliberate harassment.

Agreed about specific evidence. It appears she's mostly paying the price for his bullying in school and being an inept manager. IMHO, this shouldn't be a criminal case, but a civil case against DQ for having unqualified or ill-trained managers running their outlets.

 

[rightwinger]

The manager of a Missouri Dairy Queen was charged with involuntary manslaughter after a jury ruled the December suicide of her 17-year-old employee was the result of constant bullying he experienced at both school and work.

Missouri teen’s suicide ruled involuntary manslaughter
​

Here's the gist of the story. The manager was a douche, and this 17 year old was also bullied at school. He killed himself at home in his front yard.

In your opinion, should the manager face criminal charges?

I find it amazing that 50% of those responding to this thread voted no. The reality is it should depend on the circumstances.

And if anyone abuses another person that much, then they should accept responsibility for what they do.....particularly if they have reason to believe the person was vulnerable.

Thing is bullies almost always know their targets are vulnerable -- they're too cowardly to pick on people who will punch them in the face.

From the evidence provided it does not seem to reach criminality.
Seems the kid was bullied his whole life.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The manager of a Missouri Dairy Queen was charged with involuntary manslaughter after a jury ruled the December suicide of her 17-year-old employee was the result of constant bullying he experienced at both school and work.

Missouri teen’s suicide ruled involuntary manslaughter
​

Here's the gist of the story. The manager was a douche, and this 17 year old was also bullied at school. He killed himself at home in his front yard.

In your opinion, should the manager face criminal charges?

I find it amazing that 50% of those responding to this thread voted no. The reality is it should depend on the circumstances.

And if anyone abuses another person that much, then they should accept responsibility for what they do.....particularly if they have reason to believe the person was vulnerable.

Thing is bullies almost always know their targets are vulnerable -- they're too cowardly to pick on people who will punch them in the face.

he was 17 years old and he could have walked off that job at anytime

 

[JustAnotherNut]

I would like to see specific evidence she knew he was suicidal and was intentionally pushing him

THAT would change it up to pre-meditated murder and I don't think that is what happened. She was just a bitch of a manager toward this kid because he was 'fat & mentally slow'.....and taking advantage of the fact that he didn't fight back.

In the article it does say that the school & district(?) were also held responsible since they didn't act on previous complaints of his bullying

 

[JustAnotherNut]

The manager of a Missouri Dairy Queen was charged with involuntary manslaughter after a jury ruled the December suicide of her 17-year-old employee was the result of constant bullying he experienced at both school and work.

Missouri teen’s suicide ruled involuntary manslaughter
​

Here's the gist of the story. The manager was a douche, and this 17 year old was also bullied at school. He killed himself at home in his front yard.

In your opinion, should the manager face criminal charges?

I find it amazing that 50% of those responding to this thread voted no. The reality is it should depend on the circumstances.

And if anyone abuses another person that much, then they should accept responsibility for what they do.....particularly if they have reason to believe the person was vulnerable.

Thing is bullies almost always know their targets are vulnerable -- they're too cowardly to pick on people who will punch them in the face.

For once, I actually agree with you. Good points.

 

[rightwinger]

I would like to see specific evidence she knew he was suicidal and was intentionally pushing him

THAT would change it up to pre-meditated murder and I don't think that is what happened. She was just a bitch of a manager toward this kid because he was 'fat & mentally slow'.....and taking advantage of the fact that he didn't fight back.

In the article it does say that the school & district(?) were also held responsible since they didn't act on previous complaints of his bullying

Hard to tell if someone is suicidal

Does that mean that anyone who you are mean to that subsequently kills themselves is your responsibility?

If the boss was his sole tormentor, he had a choice of quitting or killing himself. He chose the latter

 

[JustAnotherNut]

Does that mean that anyone who you are mean to that subsequently kills themselves is your responsibility?

of course not. Although 'being mean' to the vulnerable, to the extent this manager did to the kid, shows just how inept she was not only as manager of anything, but as a person as well. True enough that isn't really enough to charge her for a crime, but she does need to take some responsibility for her own actions. As manager, she is supposed to represent the company she works for and the people that work under her......not abuse them

If the boss was his sole tormentor,

yet the boss was NOT his sole tormentor.

As I'd said earlier, there are a number of factors that play into this. Should the manager be charged with a crime??? I don't know about going that far but again, she does need to take some responsibility for her own actions that did contribute to the kids suicide. Same with the kids at school, and the school itself for not acting on previous complaints. Seems more of a failure all around that had drastic effects.

There really isn't enough information in the article to know everything about the kid, or the events that lead up to his ultimate action. Maybe he felt he had to keep the job to help his parents or sick granny or any number of reasons......we will never know. Maybe his parents were abusive as well, or they could have been the greatest parents ever, but as a teen, trying to find 'self identity & acceptence' with the world around him, felt he'd never measure up on his own.....WHO KNOWS.


Since there is a lot of information missing and everyone is left to fill in their own blanks.......I still say vanilla wafers

 

[rightwinger]

Does that mean that anyone who you are mean to that subsequently kills themselves is your responsibility?

of course not. Although 'being mean' to the vulnerable, to the extent this manager did to the kid, shows just how inept she was not only as manager of anything, but as a person as well. True enough that isn't really enough to charge her for a crime, but she does need to take some responsibility for her own actions. As manager, she is supposed to represent the company she works for and the people that work under her......not abuse them

If the boss was his sole tormentor,

yet the boss was NOT his sole tormentor.

As I'd said earlier, there are a number of factors that play into this. Should the manager be charged with a crime??? I don't know about going that far but again, she does need to take some responsibility for her own actions that did contribute to the kids suicide. Same with the kids at school, and the school itself for not acting on previous complaints. Seems more of a failure all around that had drastic effects.

There really isn't enough information in the article to know everything about the kid, or the events that lead up to his ultimate action. Maybe he felt he had to keep the job to help his parents or sick granny or any number of reasons......we will never know. Maybe his parents were abusive as well, or they could have been the greatest parents ever, but as a teen, trying to find 'self identity & acceptence' with the world around him, felt he'd never measure up on his own.....WHO KNOWS.


Since there is a lot of information missing and everyone is left to fill in their own blanks.......I still say vanilla wafers

I think her and Dairy Queen should be civilly liable for a hostile work environment

A hostile work environment does not equate to manslaughter

 

[JoeMoma]

Only if the bully breaks a law by which to be charged. Whether the victim commits suicide of not should no be relevant to charges being brought.

As RWger stated above, employers can also be civilly sued for creating a hostile work environment.