Should God's Law be the Law of the Land?

[koshergrl]

Uh huh.

In your writing, I see myself in the 6th grade..convinced I was the greatest writer and debate team member IN THE WORLD.

In the sixth grade. By the 9th grade, my writing was a great source of amusement to me.

Are you channeling Alice, of Alice in Wonderland fame? If so, you need to step up your game. You haven't quite risen to her level of wit.

 

[Hollie]

Uh huh.

In your writing, I see myself in the 6th grade..convinced I was the greatest writer and debate team member IN THE WORLD.

In the sixth grade. By the 9th grade, my writing was a great source of amusement to me.

Are you channeling Alice, of Alice in Wonderland fame? If so, you need to step up your game. You haven't quite risen to her level of wit.

Your pointless drivel is 6th grade.

Unfortunately, there are those limited souls who obsess exclusively on a haphazard compilation of writings arbitrarily edited and dubiously translated by flawed human beings as if it were an exclusive and infallible literal message from the gods to the exclusion of ongoing revelation through scientific inquiry. Such a fixation upon a single imperfect literary work is, of course, a common form of idolatry.

 

[Vandalshandle]

What I want to know is, did Thomas Jefferson give god a receipt when god gave him the inalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to put into the DofI? Does god hold a coypright on that? Actually, history teaches us that Jefferson actually wrote "sacred rights", but the the continental congress changed it to "inalienable rights", because it sounded like it "came from the pulpet".

 

[t_polkow]

Good grief.

Now I'm just sort of sad for you.

Amongst fundie whackjobs, It is disappointing that you are unable to avoid what is, sadly, a clear spiritual pitfall.

 

[t_polkow]

What I want to know is, did Thomas Jefferson give god a receipt when god gave him the inalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to put into the DofI? Does god hold a coypright on that? Actually, history teaches us that Jefferson actually wrote "sacred rights", but the the continental congress changed it to "inalienable rights", because it sounded like it "came from the pulpet".

Thomas Jefferson (the Deist) wrote

"The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which
declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and state".
..........Letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, January 1, 1802

 

[Hollie]

What I want to know is, did Thomas Jefferson give god a receipt when god gave him the inalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to put into the DofI? Does god hold a coypright on that? Actually, history teaches us that Jefferson actually wrote "sacred rights", but the the continental congress changed it to "inalienable rights", because it sounded like it "came from the pulpet".

I think Jefferson gave god a bit of a drubbing. The Jefferson bible acknowledges jeezus as a philosopher but nothing else. Jefferson affirms no resurrection of god Jr. which is quite essential to Christendom.

 

[logical4u]

I don’t accept any such thing as an “absolute truth of the Christian faith”.

Christianity was once the absolute law of the land. History defines that time period as the Dark Ages.

Good gawd. Not that again.

Not a true statement.

First off, Christianity was slowly replacing the Roman Empire (not by brutality, but by the teachings of the Christ). Then came the pillaging and plundering muslims, Turks, and Moors. That was the beginning of the "Dark Ages". It took hundreds of years to recover (sad, today, people are saying: we should embrace their way of thinking, their culture).

Christianity was points of light at that time for many. There were some really corrupt players that infiltrated the church then too. There were still pagan religions, human sacrifices, and some other nasties too! Then there was the belief that "royalty" had different rules than the "commoners". That was not changed until the Quakers gained prominence. The Quakers (a Christian faith), influenced the new gov't in this country, so there would be no special rules for those in gov't and the citizens that chose them!

 

[logical4u]

Many who believe in the absolute truth of the Christian faith seem to believe that God's Laws should be the law or basis of the law in the US.

What think you?

I see nothing wrong with the 10 Commandments.

Should there then be a law that there is a jealous God and that there shall be no other god before Him?

Should there be a law against worshipping false idols?

Should there be a law requiring children to honor their parents?

Should there be a law against coveting one's neighbors' spouses or possessions? Wouldn't we need a thought police for such a law?

The Ten Commandments leave out "Thou shalt not rape." So would we leave that out?

These ARE Commandments. They are already law. When Yeshua came, HE condensed the Commandments down to: love the LORD with all of you, and love your neighbor as yourself.

The laws of the gov't are because people choose not to follow the LORD's teachings, and there must be a way to stop them from hurting others. The same thing happened with Leviticus: the LORD gave the Commandments, and people tried to "cheat them", and get around them, so more laws were made by the judges.

The LORD's laws are the basis for any society. You can claim that there are similar "rules" by other cultures, but all those rules were made different for different classes. The LORD's laws were the only ones designed to be applied, EQUALLY.

 

[t_polkow]

I don’t accept any such thing as an “absolute truth of the Christian faith”.

Christianity was once the absolute law of the land. History defines that time period as the Dark Ages.

Good gawd. Not that again.

Not a true statement.

First off, Christianity was slowly replacing the Roman Empire (not by brutality, but by the teachings of the Christ). Then came the pillaging and plundering muslims, Turks, and Moors. That was the beginning of the "Dark Ages". It took hundreds of years to recover (sad, today, people are saying: we should embrace their way of thinking, their culture).

Christianity was points of light at that time for many. There were some really corrupt players that infiltrated the church then too. There were still pagan religions, human sacrifices, and some other nasties too! Then there was the belief that "royalty" had different rules than the "commoners". That was not changed until the Quakers gained prominence. The Quakers (a Christian faith), influenced the new gov't in this country, so there would be no special rules for those in gov't and the citizens that chose them!

Noticed how you skipped over the inquisitions

Or conquering native lands and forcing Christianity on the population by the sword like in Mexico and South America

Witch Hunts (beginning circa 1480 in Europe): The witch hunts in the United States were short lived and resulted in very few deaths compared to the witch hunts in Europe where countless people were wrongfully murdered after bogus trials for the cross.

The Crusades (Beginning 1095): As a religious driven military movement, the Crusades, fought mainly against Muslims, were efforts to recapture the “Holy Land” which lead to irrational claims of “crosses” appearing on chests of leaders, demoralization of non-Christians (Jews and Muslims) and mass murders of innocent men, women and children.


The Inquisition (Beginning 1184): The purpose of the Inquisition was stated in a 1578 handbook for inquisitors as, “… for punishment does not take place primarily and per se for the correction and good of the person punished, but for the public good in order that others may become terrified and weaned away from the evils they would commit.” Such as statement makes it clear that the goal was to inspire fear among a people in order to rule and conquer them. During the Inquisitions church leaders often supported the enslavement and/or murder of “heretics”.

The Holocaust (beginning circa 1933): Christian Fundamentalism was a primary cause of the Holocaust. Jewish persons had been murdered and enslaved throughout Europe’s violent Christian history and the Nazi’s continued this long tradition of murder – claiming it to be for the betterment of God and God’s wish. Although the Jewish people took the largest number of casualties, other groups were murdered including, homosexuals, Soviet citizens, political prisoners and the disabled.

 

[varelse]

The Ten Commandments leave out "Thou shalt not rape." So would we leave that out?

These ARE Commandments..

Wrong. your god's law is that your daughter has to marry me and fulfill her duty(serve me sexually) in our marriage after I rape her pretty little virgin body.

Interesting ethics you have.

 

[koshergrl]

I don’t accept any such thing as an “absolute truth of the Christian faith”.

Christianity was once the absolute law of the land. History defines that time period as the Dark Ages.

Good gawd. Not that again.

Not a true statement.

First off, Christianity was slowly replacing the Roman Empire (not by brutality, but by the teachings of the Christ). Then came the pillaging and plundering muslims, Turks, and Moors. That was the beginning of the "Dark Ages". It took hundreds of years to recover (sad, today, people are saying: we should embrace their way of thinking, their culture).

Christianity was points of light at that time for many. There were some really corrupt players that infiltrated the church then too. There were still pagan religions, human sacrifices, and some other nasties too! Then there was the belief that "royalty" had different rules than the "commoners". That was not changed until the Quakers gained prominence. The Quakers (a Christian faith), influenced the new gov't in this country, so there would be no special rules for those in gov't and the citizens that chose them!

Noticed how you skipped over the inquisitions

Or conquering native lands and forcing Christianity on the population by the sword like in Mexico and South America

Witch Hunts (beginning circa 1480 in Europe): The witch hunts in the United States were short lived and resulted in very few deaths compared to the witch hunts in Europe where countless people were wrongfully murdered after bogus trials for the cross.

The Crusades (Beginning 1095): As a religious driven military movement, the Crusades, fought mainly against Muslims, were efforts to recapture the “Holy Land” which lead to irrational claims of “crosses” appearing on chests of leaders, demoralization of non-Christians (Jews and Muslims) and mass murders of innocent men, women and children.


The Inquisition (Beginning 1184): The purpose of the Inquisition was stated in a 1578 handbook for inquisitors as, “… for punishment does not take place primarily and per se for the correction and good of the person punished, but for the public good in order that others may become terrified and weaned away from the evils they would commit.” Such as statement makes it clear that the goal was to inspire fear among a people in order to rule and conquer them. During the Inquisitions church leaders often supported the enslavement and/or murder of “heretics”.

The Holocaust (beginning circa 1933): Christian Fundamentalism was a primary cause of the Holocaust. Jewish persons had been murdered and enslaved throughout Europe’s violent Christian history and the Nazi’s continued this long tradition of murder – claiming it to be for the betterment of God and God’s wish. Although the Jewish people took the largest number of casualties, other groups were murdered including, homosexuals, Soviet citizens, political prisoners and the disabled.

What complete rubbish you spew.

 

[Hollie]

Not a true statement.

First off, Christianity was slowly replacing the Roman Empire (not by brutality, but by the teachings of the Christ). Then came the pillaging and plundering muslims, Turks, and Moors. That was the beginning of the "Dark Ages". It took hundreds of years to recover (sad, today, people are saying: we should embrace their way of thinking, their culture).

Christianity was points of light at that time for many. There were some really corrupt players that infiltrated the church then too. There were still pagan religions, human sacrifices, and some other nasties too! Then there was the belief that "royalty" had different rules than the "commoners". That was not changed until the Quakers gained prominence. The Quakers (a Christian faith), influenced the new gov't in this country, so there would be no special rules for those in gov't and the citizens that chose them!

Noticed how you skipped over the inquisitions

Or conquering native lands and forcing Christianity on the population by the sword like in Mexico and South America

Witch Hunts (beginning circa 1480 in Europe): The witch hunts in the United States were short lived and resulted in very few deaths compared to the witch hunts in Europe where countless people were wrongfully murdered after bogus trials for the cross.

The Crusades (Beginning 1095): As a religious driven military movement, the Crusades, fought mainly against Muslims, were efforts to recapture the “Holy Land” which lead to irrational claims of “crosses” appearing on chests of leaders, demoralization of non-Christians (Jews and Muslims) and mass murders of innocent men, women and children.


The Inquisition (Beginning 1184): The purpose of the Inquisition was stated in a 1578 handbook for inquisitors as, “… for punishment does not take place primarily and per se for the correction and good of the person punished, but for the public good in order that others may become terrified and weaned away from the evils they would commit.” Such as statement makes it clear that the goal was to inspire fear among a people in order to rule and conquer them. During the Inquisitions church leaders often supported the enslavement and/or murder of “heretics”.

The Holocaust (beginning circa 1933): Christian Fundamentalism was a primary cause of the Holocaust. Jewish persons had been murdered and enslaved throughout Europe’s violent Christian history and the Nazi’s continued this long tradition of murder – claiming it to be for the betterment of God and God’s wish. Although the Jewish people took the largest number of casualties, other groups were murdered including, homosexuals, Soviet citizens, political prisoners and the disabled.

What complete rubbish you spew.

Fundies tend to have difficulty with a reality based worldview.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

You extremists never cease to amaze me. An honest appraisal of the Holocaust is needed here.

Was it carried out in the name of Christianity? Not exactly. However, it was considered the "final solution" to what Christian Europeans had considered a plague on Europe for centuries. First by the church in Rome, and then even under Protestantism.

Martin Luther's On Jews and Their Lies reads like it came from the pen of Goebbels. It advocated burning synagogues and Jewish schools and houses to be razed and Jews to be relocated for agricultural slave labor. It forbade rabbis from preaching and advocated execution if they did, and for their religious writings to be taken away. Is such a similarity to the plan carried out by the Nazis merely a coincidence?

I'm on no crusade to demean Christianity. I happen to value the religious freedom that the Constitution guarantees as one of it's greatest virtues. I just think that if Christians are going to own the great things their faith has done, they need to own the inhumanity too. Luther's work was a pretty obvious influence on the final solution, and to deny it is sheer ignorance. To use the Holocaust as a premise regarding the atrocities of atheism is equally ignorant. The Holocaust is a great source of shame for the Western world, and as much as I treasure our Western culture and ways, it's an "all hands" situation. All of the Western world was in on it, including Christendom. Own up and move on. The Holocaust was shameful, and to use it as a premise against either Christianity OR atheism is equally shameful.

 

[Vandalshandle]

They tried using God's law ion Salem, Massachusetts in 1692. It didn't work out very well. You would have thought that they would have figured that out in advance, since Christian Inquisitors had burned to death between 60,000 and 300,000 whitches, especially in Germany and France, over the previous 200 years, and yet, the milk still went sour when left out too long, even after the witches were dead...

 

[amrchaos]

Well there is one thing we can't disagree with

Judeo-Christianity does have a marked influence on the US Constitution.

But to say it is based on christiantiy in itself is kind of a reach.

Especially since the Christianity of the last 300 years is in turn based upon Judaism, Greek philosophy, and even some Arab Philosophy and Islam itself.

So the real question is--with all this stuff forming an ideological basis for the US constitution, is there any atheism in it(Deism and pantheism does not count--in a since they too have a god/s even if it is not the same as the christian god)

I think now that most people wish to attack what I just posted. Go ahead, its just an opinion.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Well there is one thing we can't disagree with

Judeo-Christianity does have a marked influence on the US Constitution.

But to say it is based on christiantiy in itself is kind of a reach.

Especially since the Christianity of the last 300 years is in turn based upon Judaism, Greek philosophy, and even some Arab Philosophy and Islam itself.

So the real question is--with all this stuff forming an ideological basis for the US constitution, is there any atheism in it(Deism and pantheism does not count--in a since they too have a god/s even if it is not the same as the christian god)

I think now that most people wish to attack what I just posted. Go ahead, its just an opinion.

Not me. It's a fair and balanced view of history. Whatever basis on Judeo-Christian values that there is in the Constitution is there in an indirect way, since the values of classical liberalism have their influences from the same. There's no stretch in saying that. Any laws since then that were influenced by faith are simply there because of the predominance of the faith amongst Americans. No big mystery there either. Some of them have been determined to be unconstitutional, sometimes for good reason.

The founders set a framework of religious tolerance and specifically tried to avoid a theocracy. A predominant faith is naturally going to flourish under such a framework, such as it did with Christianity. Modern fundamentalists want a return to what they believe was a theocratic framework that really never existed, and now Christianity is falling apart, partly as a result of that, and yes, partly because of efforts by atheists to shut down any influence of faith on politics. That's where we are now. Christians want a theocracy, and atheists don't want religion to have any influence on politics. Neither is really possible under the Constitution. The Constitution forbids a theocracy, while nothing can prevent elected officials from having faith and letting it influence their decisions and voting practices. It is a balance that has always been. Let it be.

 

[koshergrl]

Christians do not want a theocracy. They just want to be able to worship openly and without undue interference.

That is not the same as wanting to establish a theocracy. When people make that stupid claim, I ask them to present the proposed legislation whereby we are seeking establishment of a theocracy.

That's when atheists do things like point and yell "LOOK THERE GOES ELVIS!" "You're so dumb! Hahahaha Christians are big dummies!"

 

[Hollie]

Christians do not want a theocracy. They just want to be able to worship openly and without undue interference.

That is not the same as wanting to establish a theocracy. When people make that stupid claim, I ask them to present the proposed legislation whereby we are seeking establishment of a theocracy.

That's when atheists do things like point and yell "LOOK THERE GOES ELVIS!" "You're so dumb! Hahahaha Christians are big dummies!"

It’s important to understand that you do not speak on behalf of Christianity.

Which is an important point because you know not a whit of what you speak.

The long term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to his Church’s public marks of the covenant-baptism and holy communion-must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel.
Gary North


I hope to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won’t have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be.
Jerry Falwell



There will never be world peace until Gods house and Gods people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world.
Pat Robertson

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Christians do not want a theocracy. They just want to be able to worship openly and without undue interference.

That is not the same as wanting to establish a theocracy. When people make that stupid claim, I ask them to present the proposed legislation whereby we are seeking establishment of a theocracy.

That's when atheists do things like point and yell "LOOK THERE GOES ELVIS!" "You're so dumb! Hahahaha Christians are big dummies!"

I don't doubt that not all Christians want a theocracy. I also was referring to Christians, not Christian politicians in particular. This is kind of difficult not to base at least somewhat on personal experience. Many Christians I have known see the U.S. as God's instrument, that the U.S. is a Christian nation, and that the founders intended it that way. So, based on that, I hold that many Christians, perhaps even the majority, would have no problem with a Christian theocracy. Were it not for the Establishment Clause, I have no doubt that we would have had a national church very early in our history. Asking me to present proposed legislation seeking a theocracy does not address what I said.

Anyway, as I said before, there is nothing preventing Christian politicians from having faith and letting it influence their decisions. There is nothing preventing Christians from voting for candidates because they represent their faith. I'm okay with that. And yes, atheists have a bone to pick with Christians and don't seem to point their barbs at other religions as much. That bothers me, an I'm not even a Christian. The way I look at it is, part of the reason atheists concentrate so much energy against Christianity is that Christianity is the predominant faith in a country where they have legal right to free speech. I see this as a good thing. If they were in truly theocratic countries like most in the middle east, they might be put to death for voicing their atheistic thoughts. These are all things that I see as illustrative of how great we have it in the U.S. It would be nice in my opinion if theists and atheists would lighten up a little with their agendas, but oh well, ultimately the mud-slinging just reminds me of what a great country I live in.

 

[logical4u]

I don’t accept any such thing as an “absolute truth of the Christian faith”.

Christianity was once the absolute law of the land. History defines that time period as the Dark Ages.

Good gawd. Not that again.

Not a true statement.

First off, Christianity was slowly replacing the Roman Empire (not by brutality, but by the teachings of the Christ). Then came the pillaging and plundering muslims, Turks, and Moors. That was the beginning of the "Dark Ages". It took hundreds of years to recover (sad, today, people are saying: we should embrace their way of thinking, their culture).

Christianity was points of light at that time for many. There were some really corrupt players that infiltrated the church then too. There were still pagan religions, human sacrifices, and some other nasties too! Then there was the belief that "royalty" had different rules than the "commoners". That was not changed until the Quakers gained prominence. The Quakers (a Christian faith), influenced the new gov't in this country, so there would be no special rules for those in gov't and the citizens that chose them!

Noticed how you skipped over the inquisitions

Or conquering native lands and forcing Christianity on the population by the sword like in Mexico and South America

Witch Hunts (beginning circa 1480 in Europe): The witch hunts in the United States were short lived and resulted in very few deaths compared to the witch hunts in Europe where countless people were wrongfully murdered after bogus trials for the cross.

The Crusades (Beginning 1095): As a religious driven military movement, the Crusades, fought mainly against Muslims, were efforts to recapture the “Holy Land” which lead to irrational claims of “crosses” appearing on chests of leaders, demoralization of non-Christians (Jews and Muslims) and mass murders of innocent men, women and children.


The Inquisition (Beginning 1184): The purpose of the Inquisition was stated in a 1578 handbook for inquisitors as, “… for punishment does not take place primarily and per se for the correction and good of the person punished, but for the public good in order that others may become terrified and weaned away from the evils they would commit.” Such as statement makes it clear that the goal was to inspire fear among a people in order to rule and conquer them. During the Inquisitions church leaders often supported the enslavement and/or murder of “heretics”.

The Holocaust (beginning circa 1933): Christian Fundamentalism was a primary cause of the Holocaust. Jewish persons had been murdered and enslaved throughout Europe’s violent Christian history and the Nazi’s continued this long tradition of murder – claiming it to be for the betterment of God and God’s wish. Although the Jewish people took the largest number of casualties, other groups were murdered including, homosexuals, Soviet citizens, political prisoners and the disabled.

The inquisitions killed less people than have died in Chicago in the last decade (and the Inquisition lasted hundreds of years. BTW there were two Inquisitions: one by the Spanish "gov't" that was extremely severe and the other by the Catholic Church that was considered to be less harsh. Then, like now, when a "gov't" has all the power, the people suffer.

NO, Nazism was not a result of Christian "fundamentalism". It was the result of a sick, demented, twisted person in charge of a gov't that had convinced the "people" the "gov't" was the answer. The same type of rhetoric was used: "they have money", "it was rightfully yours", "let's take it from them", they didn't give us enough, let's punish, torture, murder them (and all the "legion" went right along with it). We are watching the same thing happen in this country. The "mob" is being stirred up and fingers are being pointed, now, it will come down to who will suffer the violence.

So you want to go back hundred, even thousands of years for examples of Christianity being used for brutality. Got it.

Now let's talk about "authoritarian gov't".
French Revolution, once the aristocracy was overthrown, those "rebels" that ran the gov't made the Guillotine word for thousands.


Estimated number of victims

In the introduction, editor Stéphane Courtois states that "...Communist regimes... turned mass crime into a full-blown system of government"[3]. He claims that a death toll totals 94 million[4]. The breakdown of the number of deaths given by Courtois is as follows:
65 million in the People's Republic of China
20 million in the Soviet Union
2 million in Cambodia
2 million in North Korea
1.7 million in Africa
1.5 million in Afghanistan
1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
1 million in Vietnam
150,000 in Latin America (mainly Cuba)
10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international Communist movement and Communist parties not in power."[4]

Courtois claims that Communist regimes are responsible for a greater number of deaths than any other political ideal or movement, including Nazism. The statistics of victims includes executions, famine, deaths resulting from deportations, physical confinement, or through forced labor.

The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, let's look at what is happening with "Christians" today. They are being persecuted and murdered in Africa, the Middle East, China, Indonesia while the "tolerant" liberals are absolutely silent. In the developed countries (and some of the undeveloped countries) Christian charities are providing hope, food, medical care, and education in places where the gov'ts are not. When "natural disasters" hit, the churches are the first charities there, if they are local and able, their doors are open. When is the last time a "Christian" murdered anyone saying: this is for the LORD?

I am trying to understand how people like you can feel so threatened by Christians. What are you afraid of: someone will tell you they disagree with the way you live? 99% of Christians do not have the "authority" to "judge" you. If they say something to you, they do not have the "authority" to place any sentence upon you.
Does someone believing in the LORD scare you so badly, that you are joining the "gov't" to legislate a "forced" silence on "Christians"? Why are Christians so terrifying to you? Can you give one example where "Christianity" has been "forced" on you (you had to participate in a Christian act or you would be beaten, fined, killed)?

Just what is so terrifying about a message of the SAVIOR walking, eating, living among us, and then having our sins beaten into HIS flesh for all to see, before HE was tortured to death; then He rose from the dead, still wearing the wounds of HIS torture and told HIS followers of HIS absolute LOVE for all of us? What is hurtful about that? What is insulting about that?