Should Jerusalem be made an international city?

[Roudy]

Well maybe it's a misunderstanding, it seemed like you were denying three major religions claim holy sites in Jerusalem as that was what you quoted.

Give us a few reasons why we shouldn't, considering it as a part of long term peace deal. And if not, what's your alternative, what should be be done with Jerusalem?

Since Palestinians do have a claim to East Jerusalem.

And no, Jews don't have complete ownership of Jerusalem, as many Palestinians have land there and live there while Israel is approving settlement expansion to isolate Palestinians even further and to bring Jews into their lands.

Its the Capital of Israel....and so it should be, right of conquest.


next?

You seem to only support the Jewish 'right of conquest', which means your giving a two faced answer. Put aside your Jewish aspirations for a second, and think of the more important topic of concern. If you can't do that then you just fell into the ballpark of the Likud government, and their views hardly fall in with anyone else's views besides conservatives in Israel. So it will just lead to more isolation of Israel. But I don't expect you to understand that. So I'd rather discuss it with someone else who foresees a good future for both people's, even if they think they can guarantee Jews only a good future for decades, you need to look many years ahead.

And btw, NO country in the world recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital, so that's very misleading to say.

Muslims have a right to conquest, and invade lands, loot, plunder and rape and force Islam down people's throats, which is how most of these Muslim countries came to be, but Jews don't have a right to recapture the homeland of their ancestors and a city that has been holy to them for thousands of years and central to their faith?

Here's a quick quiz: how many times has Jerusalem been mentioned in the Koran? ZERO. in fact the Koran gives Israel to the Jews to live there eternally. Would you like me to quote?

Whereas Jerusalem had been mentioned 900 times in the OT.

So let's see Muslims zero, Jews 900. Who should be given the keys to Jerusalem? Decisions decisions. After all, Muslims have such a great track record of tolerating other faiths. Ha ha ha.

 

[Roudy]

'
But I have an even better plan for solving the problems of the Middle East !!

Now, now --- don't everyone start offering me the Nobel Prize all at once; 'twarn't nuthin' !

My program for solving the problems of the Mideast is, as usual, blindingly simple, clear and effective. The United States should, in that spirit of true generosity which it incessantly praises itself for possessing in great abundance, give the southern half of Florida to the state of Israel as New Israel, in exchange for removing itself from the Middle East!

Surely, in common decency, considering the great evil which the US has inflicted on the Middle East for more than half-a-century, it is the least it can do to repair the damage it has caused. Jews obviously like Florida -- there are so many there already -- therefore the transition should be easy. After being cooped-up in that dangerous, god-forsaken, postage-stamp-sized desert where they are now, New Israel should make them happy as clams. They will come to see New Israel as the TRUE Land of Milk and Honey which was foretold in their scriptures.

Perhaps the New Temple can be built at Disneyland, where, every day, hundreds of cattle, sheep and goats can be slaughtered and burned to delight the Nostrils of the Lord and the hearts of the pious!

It will be a win-win situation for everybody. The New Israelites will have a safe, clean, prosperous land to develop. They will finally be able to earn their own keep. The United States will no longer need to spend countless billions of dollars of its treasure in the vain attempt to prop up a doomed country in a hostile region. The Arabs will be over-joyed to take possession of the desert wasteland they covet so much. This sense of victory will give a much-needed boost to their sense of self-confidence after having defeated themselves in so many wars. I am sure that in exchange for this settlement of outstanding grievances they would gladly allow those few Jewish religious conservatives who did not want to emigrate to the fleshpots of New Israel to end their days in contentment, happily and peacefully beating their heads against the Wailing Wall.

Also, after a few years, when tempers have had time to cool down, the Arabs will probably be begging New Israelite technicians and scientists to return to the Middle East, in order to help them develop their economies and educational institutions. [That was the way Zionism was originally supposed to work -- remember?]

It is true that there will be a few losers in the otherwise astounding perfection of this scheme. There will be a few fundamentalist Christians who will be deeply saddened that, due to the absence of a Jewish government in Jerusalem, the End of the World will have to be postponed. I would console them with the reflection that it is the Will of the Almighty that life be a vale of tears for the Elect of God.

Lastly---and this is the clincher---the consideration which will make the American people, nay, the people of the entire world, embrace this proposal with fervor: once this brilliant plan is implemented something finally will be done about global warming! The citizens of New Israel will move heaven and earth to prevent so much valuable real estate from being swallowed up by rising sea-levels!

I am in awe of the wondrous radiance of my beautiful mind!
I am a true American!
.

I hope you didn't give up your daytime job to be a comedy writer.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

Its the Capital of Israel....and so it should be, right of conquest.


next?

You seem to only support the Jewish 'right of conquest', which means your giving a two faced answer. Put aside your Jewish aspirations for a second, and think of the more important topic of concern. If you can't do that then you just fell into the ballpark of the Likud government, and their views hardly fall in with anyone else's views besides conservatives in Israel. So it will just lead to more isolation of Israel. But I don't expect you to understand that. So I'd rather discuss it with someone else who foresees a good future for both people's, even if they think they can guarantee Jews only a good future for decades, you need to look many years ahead.

And btw, NO country in the world recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital, so that's very misleading to say.

Muslims have a right to conquest, and invade lands, loot, plunder and rape and force Islam down people's throats, which is how most of these Muslim countries came to be, but Jews don't have a right to recapture the homeland of their ancestors and a city that has been holy to them for thousands of years and central to their faith?

Here's a quick quiz: how many times has Jerusalem been mentioned in the Koran? ZERO. in fact the Koran gives Israel to the Jews to live there eternally. Would you like me to quote?

Whereas Jerusalem had been mentioned 900 times in the OT.

So let's see Muslims zero, Jews 900. Who should be given the keys to Jerusalem? Decisions decisions. After all, Muslims have such a great track record of tolerating other faiths. Ha ha ha.

LOL, here we go again with your 'quizzes' again. Lets leave your foolishness aside.

But you openly admit Jews came to immigrate to Palestine to 'recapture' it as you'd like to call it.

Which means they came to terrorize the native population in order to reclaim the land. Which is true. It is what they did.

And I don't think any Israel is embarrassed anymore to say that. They all know its true.

And it isn't the land of their ancestors, as European Jews may very well be Khazars and the land was inhabited by many people's well before any Jews showed up there.

So this absolutely means the Palestinians rightfully can resist the occupation.

As you've openly stated, along with Lipush, that you came to take the land by force.

So give us all a break with your crocodile tears, Palestinians have every right in the world to resist the occupier.

 

[pbel]

Its the Capital of Israel....and so it should be, right of conquest.


next?

You seem to only support the Jewish 'right of conquest', which means your giving a two faced answer. Put aside your Jewish aspirations for a second, and think of the more important topic of concern. If you can't do that then you just fell into the ballpark of the Likud government, and their views hardly fall in with anyone else's views besides conservatives in Israel. So it will just lead to more isolation of Israel. But I don't expect you to understand that. So I'd rather discuss it with someone else who foresees a good future for both people's, even if they think they can guarantee Jews only a good future for decades, you need to look many years ahead.

And btw, NO country in the world recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital, so that's very misleading to say.

Muslims have a right to conquest, and invade lands, loot, plunder and rape and force Islam down people's throats, which is how most of these Muslim countries came to be, but Jews don't have a right to recapture the homeland of their ancestors and a city that has been holy to them for thousands of years and central to their faith?

Here's a quick quiz: how many times has Jerusalem been mentioned in the Koran? ZERO. in fact the Koran gives Israel to the Jews to live there eternally. Would you like me to quote?

Whereas Jerusalem had been mentioned 900 times in the OT.

So let's see Muslims zero, Jews 900. Who should be given the keys to Jerusalem? Decisions decisions. After all, Muslims have such a great track record of tolerating other faiths. Ha ha ha.

This conflict is not about Religion but about conquest and land expropriation. Both sides have expropriated each others lands and property.

The question is for me, why should heavily AIPAC influenced America be arming both sides, with a very heavy preference for Israel which brought us into the War on Terror and thousands of American deaths? It only increases our chance of receiving Terrorism like Boston?

A permanent peace is America's strategic interests today...Why not share sovereignty and end the hostilities?

 

[Kondor3]

".The question is for me, why should heavily AIPAC influenced America be arming both sides, with a very heavy preference for Israel which brought us into the War on Terror and thousands of American deaths? It only increases our chance of receiving Terrorism like Boston?..."

Oh, dearie-me...

Even if American support for Israel was the primary cause for the attacks (9-11, etc.) - and it was not...

We will not allow foreign scum to dictate to us whom we may choose as friends and allies and whom we may not...

Oh, vile, dishonorable surrender...

If for no other reason than to reinforce our autonomy and unconquerable spirit in this context, I vote that we continue to support Israel to the maximum extent practicable...

"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."

The backbone has not yet been bred out of America.

Most (albeit not all) of the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys live on another continent.

 

[Kondor3]

"But I have an even better plan for solving the problems of the Middle East !!...The United States should... give the southern half of Florida to the state of Israel as New Israel, in exchange for removing itself from the Middle East!..."

Unacceptable.

The Cubans already have a prior claim.

Anyway...

The Brits got us into this mess in the first place (Balfour, Mandate, Abandonment, etc.), so...

It should be BRITISH territory that gets ceded...

And it should be the losers in the Palestinian Conflict that get moved, not the winners...

The Brits must cede the Falkland Islands to the Palestinians, in return for the Palestinians removing to those islands...

The Palestinians love to brawl...

Let 'em brawl with the Argentinians for a dozen or so generations...

I'm sure they'll come to hate the Argentinians as much as they hate the Israelis...

They're very good at that...

More 'Alternative History' fun from the blogosphere...

 

[Roudy]

You seem to only support the Jewish 'right of conquest', which means your giving a two faced answer. Put aside your Jewish aspirations for a second, and think of the more important topic of concern. If you can't do that then you just fell into the ballpark of the Likud government, and their views hardly fall in with anyone else's views besides conservatives in Israel. So it will just lead to more isolation of Israel. But I don't expect you to understand that. So I'd rather discuss it with someone else who foresees a good future for both people's, even if they think they can guarantee Jews only a good future for decades, you need to look many years ahead.

And btw, NO country in the world recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital, so that's very misleading to say.

Muslims have a right to conquest, and invade lands, loot, plunder and rape and force Islam down people's throats, which is how most of these Muslim countries came to be, but Jews don't have a right to recapture the homeland of their ancestors and a city that has been holy to them for thousands of years and central to their faith?

Here's a quick quiz: how many times has Jerusalem been mentioned in the Koran? ZERO. in fact the Koran gives Israel to the Jews to live there eternally. Would you like me to quote?

Whereas Jerusalem had been mentioned 900 times in the OT.

So let's see Muslims zero, Jews 900. Who should be given the keys to Jerusalem? Decisions decisions. After all, Muslims have such a great track record of tolerating other faiths. Ha ha ha.

LOL, here we go again with your 'quizzes' again. Lets leave your foolishness aside.

But you openly admit Jews came to immigrate to Palestine to 'recapture' it as you'd like to call it.

Which means they came to terrorize the native population in order to reclaim the land. Which is true. It is what they did.

And I don't think any Israel is embarrassed anymore to say that. They all know its true.

And it isn't the land of their ancestors, as European Jews may very well be Khazars and the land was inhabited by many people's well before any Jews showed up there.

So this absolutely means the Palestinians rightfully can resist the occupation.

As you've openly stated, along with Lipush, that you came to take the land by force.

So give us all a break with your crocodile tears, Palestinians have every right in the world to resist the occupier.

I never said that. The land is Jewish land, the Jews maintained a presence throughout the millennia. There were many invasions by Romans, Arabs, Turks, Crusaders, etc. but the land was always Jewish land. The Arabs that are there who call themselves Palestinians are people who have invaded the region in the last two hundred years. The concept of an Arab Palestinian people is a hoax.

 

[BecauseIKnow]

No, it became Jewish land after the Jewish invasion. And no longer was Jewish land after another invasion followed by another and another....and you get the story. Anyways, go listen to some Oum Koulthoum and have a good evening.

 

[toastman]

No, it became Jewish land after the Jewish invasion. And no longer was Jewish land after another invasion followed by another and another....and you get the story. Anyways, go listen to some Oum Koulthoum and have a good evening.

Invasion ?? The battle for Jerusalem was part of the 1947-1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine (which the Arabs started by attacking Jewish communities). During this war, Israel manged to gain control of Jerusalem, even though they were outnumbered and outgunned. Israel gained territory and the Palestinians lost territory.

 

[pbel]

".The question is for me, why should heavily AIPAC influenced America be arming both sides, with a very heavy preference for Israel which brought us into the War on Terror and thousands of American deaths? It only increases our chance of receiving Terrorism like Boston?..."

Oh, dearie-me...

Even if American support for Israel was the primary cause for the attacks (9-11, etc.) - and it was not...

We will not allow foreign scum to dictate to us whom we may choose as friends and allies and whom we may not...

Oh, vile, dishonorable surrender...

If for no other reason than to reinforce our autonomy and unconquerable spirit in this context, I vote that we continue to support Israel to the maximum extent practicable...

"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."

The backbone has not yet been bred out of America.

Most (albeit not all) of the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys live on another continent.

Oh Bullshit...America should not looking for friendship, but for our strategic interests...

This saying by a Jesuit priest says it all to paraphrase: "Everybody who says Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I remember a time before Israel when we had No Enemies in the Middle East."

The difference: AIPAC friendly Political Action Committees who get our store bought Politicians to support Israel or face a well funded opponent at re-election...Extortion Par Excellent!

 

[toastman]

No, it became Jewish land after the Jewish invasion. And no longer was Jewish land after another invasion followed by another and another....and you get the story. Anyways, go listen to some Oum Koulthoum and have a good evening.

Invasion ?? The battle for Jerusalem was part of the 1947-1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine (which the Arabs started by attacking Jewish communities). During this war, Israel manged to gain control of Jerusalem, even though they were outnumbered and outgunned. Israel gained territory and the Palestinians lost territory.

So, since Israel indisputably won the war, it is them who dictate the terms of any peace agreement.

 

[Lipush]

No.

 

[CMike]

You do realize it's the capital of Israel, and Israel isn't going to give away it's capital?

 

[pbel]

No, it became Jewish land after the Jewish invasion. And no longer was Jewish land after another invasion followed by another and another....and you get the story. Anyways, go listen to some Oum Koulthoum and have a good evening.

Invasion ?? The battle for Jerusalem was part of the 1947-1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine (which the Arabs started by attacking Jewish communities). During this war, Israel manged to gain control of Jerusalem, even though they were outnumbered and outgunned. Israel gained territory and the Palestinians lost territory.

So, since Israel indisputably won the war, it is them who dictate the terms of any peace agreement.

Israel started the 67 war Pre-emptively...That's why No one on Planet Earth recognizes Israeli Annexations including the USA which has its Embassy in Tel-Avi and not in Occupied Jerusalem.

 

[Trajan]

Well maybe it's a misunderstanding, it seemed like you were denying three major religions claim holy sites in Jerusalem as that was what you quoted.

Give us a few reasons why we shouldn't, considering it as a part of long term peace deal. And if not, what's your alternative, what should be be done with Jerusalem?

Since Palestinians do have a claim to East Jerusalem.

And no, Jews don't have complete ownership of Jerusalem, as many Palestinians have land there and live there while Israel is approving settlement expansion to isolate Palestinians even further and to bring Jews into their lands.

Its the Capital of Israel....and so it should be, right of conquest.


next?

You seem to only support the Jewish 'right of conquest', which means your giving a two faced answer. Put aside your Jewish aspirations for a second, and think of the more important topic of concern. If you can't do that then you just fell into the ballpark of the Likud government, and their views hardly fall in with anyone else's views besides conservatives in Israel. So it will just lead to more isolation of Israel. But I don't expect you to understand that. So I'd rather discuss it with someone else who foresees a good future for both people's, even if they think they can guarantee Jews only a good future for decades, you need to look many years ahead.

And btw, NO country in the world recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital, so that's very misleading to say.

first-

You seem to only support the Jewish 'right of conquest', which means your giving a two faced answer.

you seme to be incapable of reading simple English and comprehending it, please direct me to the post where in claimed that jewish right of conquest was superior/legal or more viable etc. than Arab/Persian, anyones for that matter.

you concern means squat to me, its mush, don't lecture me on whats good or why I don't see the best for yada yada yada, dopey feelgoodnick moral relativists with pie in the sky emotionally invested gobbledygook come and go.......you don't know a thing as to what I think on the whole ME issue, Plai/ Israel et al...., and you've already decided your outlook is superior or more balanced, turn down your drip, you're experiencing delusional feelings of euphoria.

And btw, NO country in the world recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital, so that's very misleading to say.

Its the Capital of Israel....and so it should be, right of conquest.

can you not read? I mean seriously?

 

[Trajan]

".The question is for me, why should heavily AIPAC influenced America be arming both sides, with a very heavy preference for Israel which brought us into the War on Terror and thousands of American deaths? It only increases our chance of receiving Terrorism like Boston?..."

Oh, dearie-me...

Even if American support for Israel was the primary cause for the attacks (9-11, etc.) - and it was not...

We will not allow foreign scum to dictate to us whom we may choose as friends and allies and whom we may not...

Oh, vile, dishonorable surrender...

If for no other reason than to reinforce our autonomy and unconquerable spirit in this context, I vote that we continue to support Israel to the maximum extent practicable...

"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute."

The backbone has not yet been bred out of America.

Most (albeit not all) of the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys live on another continent.

Oh Bullshit...America should not looking for friendship, but for our strategic interests...

This saying by a Jesuit priest says it all to paraphrase: "Everybody who says Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I remember a time before Israel when we had No Enemies in the Middle East."

The difference: AIPAC friendly Political Action Committees who get our store bought Politicians to support Israel or face a well funded opponent at re-election...Extortion Par Excellent!

are you going to answer my questions(s) from post 12?


http://www.usmessageboard.com/7381440-post12.html

 

[PoliticalChic]

Nope.

The Israelis won it back fair-and-square in 1967.

The Jews had it taken from them in 70 A.D. and waited a long time to get it back... some 1,900 years...

Time to share and play nice with others... let the Jews have it for a few centuries... it's their turn anyway.

And, given that they took it back by force-of-arms, as part of an overall defensive war, against rather alarming odds, after their enemies had massed troops to attack them simultaneously on all sides...

Vae victus.

Israel's pre-emptive strike was a land grab because she had more than all the Arab Armies soldiers on all fronts...Even PM Begin admitted thus.

Sure, she may have it for a while...but 400 million Arabs will eventually get it back by war or demographics...only a peace deal accepted by the UN, the Arabs and Israel can avert the inevitable.

"....but 400 million Arabs will eventually get it back by war or demographics..."

Doubt it.


1. Hania Zlotnik, director of the population division at the United Nations Department of Economic and Social Affairs, said “In most of the Islamic world it’s amazing, the decline in fertility that has happened,’’ … From 1975 to 1980, women in Iran were giving birth to nearly 7 children per family, according to the latest U.N. population report; from 2005 to 2010 that number is expected to be less than 2. U.N. Sees Falling Middle East Fertility Rates - NYTimes.com


2. The Jewish birth rate was rising steadily, and the Arab birthrate was falling. ...the fertility rate of Jews and Arabs had nearly converged by 2009, to 0.7 births per woman from six more per Arab woman.

a. Most remarkable is that today's "secular" Israeli women show a rate of 2.6, far and away the highest in the industrial world. Their own mothers had a rate of 2.1!

b. Between 1994 and 2009, Arab births in Israel remained steady at 39,000, while Jewish births rose from 80,000 to 120,000. The ultr-religious Jews (8% of the population) have a fertility rate of 8.5, which brings Israeli fertility to 2.9 per woman.

c. At this rate, Israel will have a larger population than Poland by 2085.
"How Civilizations Die," David Goldman

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Jewish Claim= After conquering territory built temples there.

Corrected that for you.

Solomon predates Mohammad, even in Islam.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Well maybe it's a misunderstanding, it seemed like you were denying three major religions claim holy sites in Jerusalem as that was what you quoted.

Give us a few reasons why we shouldn't, considering it as a part of long term peace deal. And if not, what's your alternative, what should be be done with Jerusalem?

Since Palestinians do have a claim to East Jerusalem.

And no, Jews don't have complete ownership of Jerusalem, as many Palestinians have land there and live there while Israel is approving settlement expansion to isolate Palestinians even further and to bring Jews into their lands.

Its the Capital of Israel....and so it should be, right of conquest.


next?

You seem to only support the Jewish 'right of conquest', which means your giving a two faced answer. Put aside your Jewish aspirations for a second, and think of the more important topic of concern. If you can't do that then you just fell into the ballpark of the Likud government, and their views hardly fall in with anyone else's views besides conservatives in Israel. So it will just lead to more isolation of Israel. But I don't expect you to understand that. So I'd rather discuss it with someone else who foresees a good future for both people's, even if they think they can guarantee Jews only a good future for decades, you need to look many years ahead.

And btw, NO country in the world recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital, so that's very misleading to say.

If the Palestinians manage a conquest of Jerusalem at some point in the future let me know and we can discuss their right to control it at that point. Since it has never happened in the past, you really don't have a point. Unless, that is, you want to give control of Jerusalem to the Holy Roman Empire.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

'
But I have an even better plan for solving the problems of the Middle East !!

Now, now --- don't everyone start offering me the Nobel Prize all at once; 'twarn't nuthin' !

My program for solving the problems of the Mideast is, as usual, blindingly simple, clear and effective. The United States should, in that spirit of true generosity which it incessantly praises itself for possessing in great abundance, give the southern half of Florida to the state of Israel as New Israel, in exchange for removing itself from the Middle East!

Surely, in common decency, considering the great evil which the US has inflicted on the Middle East for more than half-a-century, it is the least it can do to repair the damage it has caused. Jews obviously like Florida -- there are so many there already -- therefore the transition should be easy. After being cooped-up in that dangerous, god-forsaken, postage-stamp-sized desert where they are now, New Israel should make them happy as clams. They will come to see New Israel as the TRUE Land of Milk and Honey which was foretold in their scriptures.

Perhaps the New Temple can be built at Disneyland, where, every day, hundreds of cattle, sheep and goats can be slaughtered and burned to delight the Nostrils of the Lord and the hearts of the pious!

It will be a win-win situation for everybody. The New Israelites will have a safe, clean, prosperous land to develop. They will finally be able to earn their own keep. The United States will no longer need to spend countless billions of dollars of its treasure in the vain attempt to prop up a doomed country in a hostile region. The Arabs will be over-joyed to take possession of the desert wasteland they covet so much. This sense of victory will give a much-needed boost to their sense of self-confidence after having defeated themselves in so many wars. I am sure that in exchange for this settlement of outstanding grievances they would gladly allow those few Jewish religious conservatives who did not want to emigrate to the fleshpots of New Israel to end their days in contentment, happily and peacefully beating their heads against the Wailing Wall.

Also, after a few years, when tempers have had time to cool down, the Arabs will probably be begging New Israelite technicians and scientists to return to the Middle East, in order to help them develop their economies and educational institutions. [That was the way Zionism was originally supposed to work -- remember?]

It is true that there will be a few losers in the otherwise astounding perfection of this scheme. There will be a few fundamentalist Christians who will be deeply saddened that, due to the absence of a Jewish government in Jerusalem, the End of the World will have to be postponed. I would console them with the reflection that it is the Will of the Almighty that life be a vale of tears for the Elect of God.

Lastly---and this is the clincher---the consideration which will make the American people, nay, the people of the entire world, embrace this proposal with fervor: once this brilliant plan is implemented something finally will be done about global warming! The citizens of New Israel will move heaven and earth to prevent so much valuable real estate from being swallowed up by rising sea-levels!

I am in awe of the wondrous radiance of my beautiful mind!
I am a true American!
.

You have been watching too much TV.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJgi-Lou1NA]Big Bang Theory - Sheldon's plan to win the Nobel Peace Prize - YouTube[/ame]