Social Sec will stay solvent for 20 years... *IF* we pay off 1/3 of the National Debt

[Flopper]

You're so confused by the Trust Fund accounting gimmicks that you believe those deficits are actually being paid off with imaginary interest.. When in fact -- they are being financed with NEW debt instruments that will cost current/future taxpayers the amount of those deficits PLUS interest..

NOTHING is being paid out of value previously existing in the "trust fund". Those IOUs represent a PROMISE to pay.. Nothing more.. And it doesn't specify WHO PAYS or HOW it is paid.. YOU are paying twice PLUS INTEREST for every SS Surplus dollar that was stolen.
It was NEVER "an investment"..

Please refute that last paragraph... ANYBODY???

So you don't consider those IOU's held by the fund to have any value?

 

[flacaltenn]

You're so confused by the Trust Fund accounting gimmicks that you believe those deficits are actually being paid off with imaginary interest.. When in fact -- they are being financed with NEW debt instruments that will cost current/future taxpayers the amount of those deficits PLUS interest..

NOTHING is being paid out of value previously existing in the "trust fund". Those IOUs represent a PROMISE to pay.. Nothing more.. And it doesn't specify WHO PAYS or HOW it is paid.. YOU are paying twice PLUS INTEREST for every SS Surplus dollar that was stolen.
It was NEVER "an investment"..

Please refute that last paragraph... ANYBODY???

So you don't consider those IOU's held by the fund to have any value?

They have a MORAL value only.. No intrinsic monetary value.. And the way the Govt is currently paying that debt --- only multiplies the insult to the taxpayers..

 

[NYcarbineer]

You're so confused by the Trust Fund accounting gimmicks that you believe those deficits are actually being paid off with imaginary interest.. When in fact -- they are being financed with NEW debt instruments that will cost current/future taxpayers the amount of those deficits PLUS interest..

NOTHING is being paid out of value previously existing in the "trust fund". Those IOUs represent a PROMISE to pay.. Nothing more.. And it doesn't specify WHO PAYS or HOW it is paid.. YOU are paying twice PLUS INTEREST for every SS Surplus dollar that was stolen.
It was NEVER "an investment"..

Please refute that last paragraph... ANYBODY???

So you don't consider those IOU's held by the fund to have any value?

They have a MORAL value only.. No intrinsic monetary value.. And the way the Govt is currently paying that debt --- only multiplies the insult to the taxpayers..

You could say that about any debt if you wanted to.

If you have money in a money market fund that invests in US Treasuries for the purpose of earning income,

all your money market account holds are IOU's.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Bzzzzzt.. Wrong again.. What does a $50Bill shortfall mean? Means it DIDN'T come from payroll taxes which were insufficient to pay the checks.

Payroll taxes don't need to pay the checks. The Trust Fund earned over 100 billion in interest income every year. That's what was tapped to add to the payroll taxes.

Do you have no idea how an investment works? Are you that fucking ignorant? Have you never owned a bond that paid interest?

The taxpayers have to pay the interest because the taxpayers borrowed the money. Remember those 2 fucking wars? Remember Bush's Medicare Part D? Remember Reagan's deficits? That's what YOU the taxpayer got from the money you were loaned by Social Security.

Now you have to pay some of it back. Boohoo. That's how borrowing works. You borrow, you pay interest, you pay back the principal.

Read a fucking book.

The government STOLE the money -- wrote themselves an IOU --- promised itself interest -- and NOW when the "interest" is due is paying it off on it's credit card at an increased rate of debt plus interest..

Only in the retarded mind of an economically challenged progressive would that be considered "an investment".. The RESULT is that NO VALUE WAS CREATED -- only a snowball of debt and YOU and your grandchildren will pay MULTIPLE TIMES for that theft.

Please refute any of that that you can... Please show me the VALUE and where the treasury GETS the money to pay those deficit checks.

The ONLY thing keeping those monthly checks coming is "hope and faith".. NOT an "investment"...

Let me say this again.

The Trust Fund is invested in bonds. Treasury bonds. The safest investment in the world.

All investments in any bonds are 'IOU's'. That's what a bond is.

You are clueless.

While you're at it, why don't you tell us where the Trust Fund money should be, where it should have been put over the years.

 

[Flopper]

You're so confused by the Trust Fund accounting gimmicks that you believe those deficits are actually being paid off with imaginary interest.. When in fact -- they are being financed with NEW debt instruments that will cost current/future taxpayers the amount of those deficits PLUS interest..

NOTHING is being paid out of value previously existing in the "trust fund". Those IOUs represent a PROMISE to pay.. Nothing more.. And it doesn't specify WHO PAYS or HOW it is paid.. YOU are paying twice PLUS INTEREST for every SS Surplus dollar that was stolen.
It was NEVER "an investment"..

Please refute that last paragraph... ANYBODY???

So you don't consider those IOU's held by the fund to have any value?

They have a MORAL value only.. No intrinsic monetary value.. And the way the Govt is currently paying that debt --- only multiplies the insult to the taxpayers..

That is also the case with trillions of dollars invested in government savings bonds, treasury bonds, treasury bills, treasury notes, TIPS, SLGS, and other government securities. The value of any US government issued debt is based on the faith that the government will make good on it's promise to repay the principal and interest. Without that faith, all government securities are worthless as would be the US dollar. If the government fails to make good it's promise to pay the trust fund, it would be in default and all government securities values would collapse which is why it's not going to happen. US debt is the safest investment the fund can make.

 

[flacaltenn]

So you don't consider those IOU's held by the fund to have any value?

They have a MORAL value only.. No intrinsic monetary value.. And the way the Govt is currently paying that debt --- only multiplies the insult to the taxpayers..

You could say that about any debt if you wanted to.

If you have money in a money market fund that invests in US Treasuries for the purpose of earning income,

all your money market account holds are IOU's.

You keep equating US Treasuries with an interdepartmental IOU..

If I BUY US treasuries, I can sell them to ANYONE -- ANYTIME.. The "credits" in the SS Trust Fund are non-transferable, non-negotiable... There is NO market to recognize their value (other than the moral value I mentioned). The GOVT can't even sell this worthless paper to raise cash..

You think the govt CREATES value? Makes a PROFIT? To the taxpayer --- ANY BOND THEY ISSUE is a liability... Taxpayers gave them MONEY -- Taxpayers got a liability... You ARE the primary source of revenue for the govt. It's not like I give SW Airlines $20K to help them buy a plane. They don't need my taxes in order to perform on that bond. If SW Air was paying off bond-holders by issuing more bonds ---- NO ONE would be stupid enough to loan them money.

Therefore when it comes time to collect on these IOUs and the issuer says "SURE just let me charge YOUR credit card for the pay-out" -- you have no recourse.. They are worthless for GENERATING CASH when the GOVT is eyeballs in debt.

BTW: Where does your Soc Sec check stand with respect to OTHER debt-holders?? It's WAAAY down the list. Because you have no DEFINED benefits, Congress can smite you with a single vote. MOST REAL US GOVT debt is owned by other COUNTRIES and major international banks. A default of $1 on a REAL govt Treasury bond would set off a chain of events that would tank this country.. A partial default or reduction of your SS benefits? Mehhh, CHina might stop buying wads of them, but they're not concerned about our internal societal benefits programs. (contrary to Flopper's assertion that a partial default on SS payments would be viewed the same as a default on REAL bonds.)

Why do you think Obama made seniors change their Depends with his statement about "not knowing if the SS checks would go out"?? Because the REAL BOND holders are gonna get paid first.. I guarandamteeit..

 

[flacaltenn]

Would be instructive here for you to actually see the Social Security "Bonds"..

G. Bush made a point to go visit them and see that they were all there.. No joke..

Does that filing cabinet look secure enough to hold $4TRILL worth of investment grade bonds??

The lady is actually holding your bonds. No other paper was ever issued.....

As I said --- accounting gimmick -- not an investment...

 

[NYcarbineer]

Would be instructive here for you to actually see the Social Security "Bonds"..

G. Bush made a point to go visit them and see that they were all there.. No joke..

Does that filing cabinet look secure enough to hold $4TRILL worth of investment grade bonds??

The lady is actually holding your bonds. No other paper was ever issued.....

As I said --- accounting gimmick -- not an investment...

Are you aware that even savings bonds aren't actual paper anymore?

 

[NYcarbineer]

[ The GOVT can't even sell this worthless paper to raise cash..

You're wrong. It was from those securities that the Trust Fund raised the cash to supplement the cash flow from the payroll taxes collected to pay recipients the last couple years.

That's how it works. The Trust Fund is one big savings account, where the savings accrue interest,

and where the Trust Fund can go to make withdrawals if need be to pay its obligations to Social Security recipients.

 

[Flopper]

They have a MORAL value only.. No intrinsic monetary value.. And the way the Govt is currently paying that debt --- only multiplies the insult to the taxpayers..

You could say that about any debt if you wanted to.

If you have money in a money market fund that invests in US Treasuries for the purpose of earning income,

all your money market account holds are IOU's.

You keep equating US Treasuries with an interdepartmental IOU..

If I BUY US treasuries, I can sell them to ANYONE -- ANYTIME.. The "credits" in the SS Trust Fund are non-transferable, non-negotiable... There is NO market to recognize their value (other than the moral value I mentioned). The GOVT can't even sell this worthless paper to raise cash..

You think the govt CREATES value? Makes a PROFIT? To the taxpayer --- ANY BOND THEY ISSUE is a liability... Taxpayers gave them MONEY -- Taxpayers got a liability... You ARE the primary source of revenue for the govt. It's not like I give SW Airlines $20K to help them buy a plane. They don't need my taxes in order to perform on that bond. If SW Air was paying off bond-holders by issuing more bonds ---- NO ONE would be stupid enough to loan them money.

Therefore when it comes time to collect on these IOUs and the issuer says "SURE just let me charge YOUR credit card for the pay-out" -- you have no recourse.. They are worthless for GENERATING CASH when the GOVT is eyeballs in debt.

BTW: Where does your Soc Sec check stand with respect to OTHER debt-holders?? It's WAAAY down the list. Because you have no DEFINED benefits, Congress can smite you with a single vote. MOST REAL US GOVT debt is owned by other COUNTRIES and major international banks. A default of $1 on a REAL govt Treasury bond would set off a chain of events that would tank this country.. A partial default or reduction of your SS benefits? Mehhh, CHina might stop buying wads of them, but they're not concerned about our internal societal benefits programs. (contrary to Flopper's assertion that a partial default on SS payments would be viewed the same as a default on REAL bonds.)

Why do you think Obama made seniors change their Depends with his statement about "not knowing if the SS checks would go out"?? Because the REAL BOND holders are gonna get paid first.. I guarandamteeit..

Saying that those IOU's which are actually treasury bills, are not a real firm asset is like saying that the dollars in your wallet are just "Paper" and only worth the cost of printing. Those IOU's carry the same guarantee that marketable government securities carry, savings bonds, and a number of other government securities carry, "backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government." The government has just as much obligation to pay back the bonds and interest to the Social Security trust fund as they do to any other bondholders. If that's not good enough for you, then you better find yourself another country. Oh, you better look pretty hard because most of those countries have investments in US government securities.

 

[NYcarbineer]

You could say that about any debt if you wanted to.

If you have money in a money market fund that invests in US Treasuries for the purpose of earning income,

all your money market account holds are IOU's.

You keep equating US Treasuries with an interdepartmental IOU..

If I BUY US treasuries, I can sell them to ANYONE -- ANYTIME.. The "credits" in the SS Trust Fund are non-transferable, non-negotiable... There is NO market to recognize their value (other than the moral value I mentioned). The GOVT can't even sell this worthless paper to raise cash..

You think the govt CREATES value? Makes a PROFIT? To the taxpayer --- ANY BOND THEY ISSUE is a liability... Taxpayers gave them MONEY -- Taxpayers got a liability... You ARE the primary source of revenue for the govt. It's not like I give SW Airlines $20K to help them buy a plane. They don't need my taxes in order to perform on that bond. If SW Air was paying off bond-holders by issuing more bonds ---- NO ONE would be stupid enough to loan them money.

Therefore when it comes time to collect on these IOUs and the issuer says "SURE just let me charge YOUR credit card for the pay-out" -- you have no recourse.. They are worthless for GENERATING CASH when the GOVT is eyeballs in debt.

BTW: Where does your Soc Sec check stand with respect to OTHER debt-holders?? It's WAAAY down the list. Because you have no DEFINED benefits, Congress can smite you with a single vote. MOST REAL US GOVT debt is owned by other COUNTRIES and major international banks. A default of $1 on a REAL govt Treasury bond would set off a chain of events that would tank this country.. A partial default or reduction of your SS benefits? Mehhh, CHina might stop buying wads of them, but they're not concerned about our internal societal benefits programs. (contrary to Flopper's assertion that a partial default on SS payments would be viewed the same as a default on REAL bonds.)

Why do you think Obama made seniors change their Depends with his statement about "not knowing if the SS checks would go out"?? Because the REAL BOND holders are gonna get paid first.. I guarandamteeit..

Saying that those IOU's which are actually treasury bills, are not a real firm asset is like saying that the dollars in your wallet are just "Paper" and only worth the cost of printing. Those IOU's carry the same guarantee that marketable government securities carry, savings bonds, and a number of other government securities carry, "backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government." The government has just as much obligation to pay back the bonds and interest to the Social Security trust fund as they do to any other bondholders. If that's not good enough for you, then you better find yourself another country. Oh, you better look pretty hard because most of those countries have investments in US government securities.

The question to flacal needs to be, why would bonds held by the Trust Fund need to be transferable? Hell, savings bonds are non-transferable securities.

 

[flacaltenn]

[ The GOVT can't even sell this worthless paper to raise cash..

You're wrong. It was from those securities that the Trust Fund raised the cash to supplement the cash flow from the payroll taxes collected to pay recipients the last couple years.

That's how it works. The Trust Fund is one big savings account, where the savings accrue interest,

and where the Trust Fund can go to make withdrawals if need be to pay its obligations to Social Security recipients.

You're really ignoring every fact I post.. I posted statements from BOTH the SSA and CBO saying (essentially) that nothing of VALUE COMES OUT of the Trust Fund..

No withdrawals.. No investment.. Deficits are covered by "raising taxes, cutting benefits, or issuing NEW debt"....

If we can't get beyond that -- and you can't read --- we're at an impasse due to your learning capabilities..

You want to see those quotes again??

 

[flacaltenn]

Third time I've posted this explanation of the accounting fraud.. This time I need NYCarb to tell me what it says about "withdrawals from the investments"...

Let's read the fine print at the end of the SSA prospectus again...

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/history/pdf/tr09summary.pdf

Social Security’s annual surpluses
of tax income over expenditures are expected to fall sharply this
year and to stay about constant in 2010 because of the economic recession, <<they didn't --FlaCalTenn>>
and to rise only briefly before declining and turning to cash flow
deficits beginning in 2016 that grow as the baby-boom generation retires. <<happened in 2010 --FlaCalTenn>>

The combined difference grows each year, so that by 2016, net revenue
flows from the general fund would total $369 billion (1.8 percent of
GDP). The positive amounts that begin in 2016 for OASDI, and started in
2008 for HI, initially represent payments the Treasury must make to the
trust funds when assets are depleted to help pay benefits in years prior to
exhaustion of the funds. Neither the redemption of trust fund bonds, nor
interest paid on those bonds, provides any new net income to the Treasury,
which must finance redemptions and interest payments through
some combination of increased taxation, reductions in other government
spending, or additional borrowing from the public.

 

[flacaltenn]

You could say that about any debt if you wanted to.

If you have money in a money market fund that invests in US Treasuries for the purpose of earning income,

all your money market account holds are IOU's.

You keep equating US Treasuries with an interdepartmental IOU..

If I BUY US treasuries, I can sell them to ANYONE -- ANYTIME.. The "credits" in the SS Trust Fund are non-transferable, non-negotiable... There is NO market to recognize their value (other than the moral value I mentioned). The GOVT can't even sell this worthless paper to raise cash..

You think the govt CREATES value? Makes a PROFIT? To the taxpayer --- ANY BOND THEY ISSUE is a liability... Taxpayers gave them MONEY -- Taxpayers got a liability... You ARE the primary source of revenue for the govt. It's not like I give SW Airlines $20K to help them buy a plane. They don't need my taxes in order to perform on that bond. If SW Air was paying off bond-holders by issuing more bonds ---- NO ONE would be stupid enough to loan them money.

Therefore when it comes time to collect on these IOUs and the issuer says "SURE just let me charge YOUR credit card for the pay-out" -- you have no recourse.. They are worthless for GENERATING CASH when the GOVT is eyeballs in debt.

BTW: Where does your Soc Sec check stand with respect to OTHER debt-holders?? It's WAAAY down the list. Because you have no DEFINED benefits, Congress can smite you with a single vote. MOST REAL US GOVT debt is owned by other COUNTRIES and major international banks. A default of $1 on a REAL govt Treasury bond would set off a chain of events that would tank this country.. A partial default or reduction of your SS benefits? Mehhh, CHina might stop buying wads of them, but they're not concerned about our internal societal benefits programs. (contrary to Flopper's assertion that a partial default on SS payments would be viewed the same as a default on REAL bonds.)

Why do you think Obama made seniors change their Depends with his statement about "not knowing if the SS checks would go out"?? Because the REAL BOND holders are gonna get paid first.. I guarandamteeit..

Saying that those IOU's which are actually treasury bills, are not a real firm asset is like saying that the dollars in your wallet are just "Paper" and only worth the cost of printing. Those IOU's carry the same guarantee that marketable government securities carry, savings bonds, and a number of other government securities carry, "backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government." The government has just as much obligation to pay back the bonds and interest to the Social Security trust fund as they do to any other bondholders. If that's not good enough for you, then you better find yourself another country. Oh, you better look pretty hard because most of those countries have investments in US government securities.

One more time.. They are NOT Treasury bills.. They are "special issue" interdepartmental notes. Read that IOUs. I've posted the SS admission of that several times now.

That's right.. A lot of countries HOLD REAL treasury bonds. And they'd be mightily pissed if we paid OURSELVES before them. We're in repetition now and you don't understand that these are INTERNAL non-marketable IOUs. Reality is -- SS IOUs are MORAL value only and are SUBORDINATE to maintaining the US credit rating by paying OTHER REAL investor/creditors first.

Your benefits are NOT DEFINED and NOT protected as witnessed by both SUpreme Ct ruling AND the Progs on here telling us to raise caps and means test and do all kind of horrible things to the agreement the people THOUGHT they had when they paid into this all their lives..

I WANT TO SEE THAT COMMITMENT HONORED.. Probably more than MikeK or some of the other deluded progs do.. Because I don't WANT it to become another welfare program unless that's a last resort.

 

[Flopper]

You keep equating US Treasuries with an interdepartmental IOU..

If I BUY US treasuries, I can sell them to ANYONE -- ANYTIME.. The "credits" in the SS Trust Fund are non-transferable, non-negotiable... There is NO market to recognize their value (other than the moral value I mentioned). The GOVT can't even sell this worthless paper to raise cash..

You think the govt CREATES value? Makes a PROFIT? To the taxpayer --- ANY BOND THEY ISSUE is a liability... Taxpayers gave them MONEY -- Taxpayers got a liability... You ARE the primary source of revenue for the govt. It's not like I give SW Airlines $20K to help them buy a plane. They don't need my taxes in order to perform on that bond. If SW Air was paying off bond-holders by issuing more bonds ---- NO ONE would be stupid enough to loan them money.

Therefore when it comes time to collect on these IOUs and the issuer says "SURE just let me charge YOUR credit card for the pay-out" -- you have no recourse.. They are worthless for GENERATING CASH when the GOVT is eyeballs in debt.

BTW: Where does your Soc Sec check stand with respect to OTHER debt-holders?? It's WAAAY down the list. Because you have no DEFINED benefits, Congress can smite you with a single vote. MOST REAL US GOVT debt is owned by other COUNTRIES and major international banks. A default of $1 on a REAL govt Treasury bond would set off a chain of events that would tank this country.. A partial default or reduction of your SS benefits? Mehhh, CHina might stop buying wads of them, but they're not concerned about our internal societal benefits programs. (contrary to Flopper's assertion that a partial default on SS payments would be viewed the same as a default on REAL bonds.)

Why do you think Obama made seniors change their Depends with his statement about "not knowing if the SS checks would go out"?? Because the REAL BOND holders are gonna get paid first.. I guarandamteeit..

Saying that those IOU's which are actually treasury bills, are not a real firm asset is like saying that the dollars in your wallet are just "Paper" and only worth the cost of printing. Those IOU's carry the same guarantee that marketable government securities carry, savings bonds, and a number of other government securities carry, "backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government." The government has just as much obligation to pay back the bonds and interest to the Social Security trust fund as they do to any other bondholders. If that's not good enough for you, then you better find yourself another country. Oh, you better look pretty hard because most of those countries have investments in US government securities.

One more time.. They are NOT Treasury bills.. They are "special issue" interdepartmental notes. Read that IOUs. I've posted the SS admission of that several times now.

That's right.. A lot of countries HOLD REAL treasury bonds. And they'd be mightily pissed if we paid OURSELVES before them. We're in repetition now and you don't understand that these are INTERNAL non-marketable IOUs. Reality is -- SS IOUs are MORAL value only and are SUBORDINATE to maintaining the US credit rating by paying OTHER REAL investor/creditors first.

Your benefits are NOT DEFINED and NOT protected as witnessed by both SUpreme Ct ruling AND the Progs on here telling us to raise caps and means test and do all kind of horrible things to the agreement the people THOUGHT they had when they paid into this all their lives..

I WANT TO SEE THAT COMMITMENT HONORED.. Probably more than MikeK or some of the other deluded progs do.. Because I don't WANT it to become another welfare program unless that's a last resort.

No, they are not interdepartmental notes. These securities are issued by the Treasury not departments. According to the Social Security Administration the investments are in special issue treasury bills. Social Security refers to them as special obligation bonds and special issue treasury bonds. It really makes no difference. They are debt obligations issued by the US treasury which carries the same guarantee on all US debt. Apparently you do not seem to grasp the significance of that guarantee.

"By law, income to the trust funds must be invested, on a daily basis, in securities guaranteed as to both principal and interest by the Federal government. All securities held by the trust funds are "special issues" of the United States Treasury." Both the interest and principal is guaranteed by law.

Far from being "worthless IOUs," the investments held by the trust funds are backed by the full faith and credit of the U. S. Government. The government has always repaid Social Security, with interest. The special-issue securities are, therefore, just as safe as U.S. Savings Bonds or other financial instruments of the Federal government. These are the most secure investments
for the trust fund because unlike marketable securities, there is no fluctuation in value. They are always worth face value and can be redeemed at face value any time if needed.

I suspect that principal or interest payment to Social Security in order to pay benefits would take preference over payment to foreign governments simply for political reasons. However, I think this is a mute point. The federal government will never default on payment of principal or interest on any financial obligation. First because it will always have a source of funds either through issuance of debt obligations or direct creation of money. Secondly, a default of any size would create a crash in financial markets both national and international.


Trust Fund Data
Social Security History
Government - Trust Fund Management Program

 

[Little-Acorn]

When Social Security was first implemented in the 1930s, the government assigned the "retirement age" to be 65. After that, you could start drawing benefits.

By some strange coincidence, the average age of death in the 1930s was..... 65.

Meaning, half the people who would pay in all their lives, would never draw out a dime, except for death benefits.

And the rest wouldn't draw out very much before they, too, kicked off.

Social Security was designed to be "self-supporting"... for that time. With no thought of what might change in the future... like medical science advancing enough to enable people to live a LOT longer.

BTW, all the money you've paid in, has already been spent. In the SS Trust Fund is nothing but IOUs from the government. Remember Obama's statements a year or so ago, that if the Debt Ceiling wasn't raised, Social Security checks couldn't be written to its benefits recipients?

The money has been "borrowed" by other government agencies, and spent. All the money being paid out as benefits to retirees, is coming from the money you and I are paying in now. None of it is being saved for us. This is the defining characteristic of a Ponzi scheme.

Which brings us to the other issue.

Remember the other predictions various govt officials have made, saying that SS will be "solvent" for the next 15 or 20 or 30 years (depending on which politician you listen to)? They mean that they will be able to pay retirees their scheduled benefits from that money supposedly in the Trust Fund, until then.

But all the Trust Fund money has been "borrowed", and is gone. This means that those agencies that "borrowed" it, have to pay back ALL the money by that deadline (15 or 20 or etc. years from now), so it can be paid out to retirees that need it. And of course, if they are going to be replenishing the Trust Funds this way, they can't borrow any more while they're paying it back.

So, how much money is owed to the SS Trust Fund and other such govt-held trust funds?

Answer: 30.1% of the entire National Debt is owed to these Trust Funds. That's $4.7 trillion. (See reference below.)

That's how much must be paid back into the SS Trust fund and other such funds, to keep them "solvent" for that long.

Has anyone heard of any plans to pay off 30% of the National Debt within the next 15 years? Or 20? Or.....?

Neither have I.

Next time someone tells you how solvent the Social Security Trust fund is, or any other government trust fund, show him the numbers and see what he says then.

Reference: See Current and Back Issues: Overview: Daily Treasury Statement: Publications & Guidance: Financial Management Service . Pick a recent date, and and look under "Intergovernmental Holdings".

So, has anyone heard of any plans by the government to pay off 30% of the National Debt in 15, 20, or etc. years?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Third time I've posted this explanation of the accounting fraud.. This time I need NYCarb to tell me what it says about "withdrawals from the investments"...

Let's read the fine print at the end of the SSA prospectus again...

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/history/pdf/tr09summary.pdf

Social Security’s annual surpluses
of tax income over expenditures are expected to fall sharply this
year and to stay about constant in 2010 because of the economic recession, <<they didn't --FlaCalTenn>>
and to rise only briefly before declining and turning to cash flow
deficits beginning in 2016 that grow as the baby-boom generation retires. <<happened in 2010 --FlaCalTenn>>

The combined difference grows each year, so that by 2016, net revenue
flows from the general fund would total $369 billion (1.8 percent of
GDP). The positive amounts that begin in 2016 for OASDI, and started in
2008 for HI, initially represent payments the Treasury must make to the
trust funds when assets are depleted to help pay benefits in years prior to
exhaustion of the funds. Neither the redemption of trust fund bonds, nor
interest paid on those bonds, provides any new net income to the Treasury,
which must finance redemptions and interest payments through
some combination of increased taxation, reductions in other government
spending, or additional borrowing from the public.

You can be wrong as many times as you want that's not going to ever make you right.

The payroll tax collections that were not paid out in benefits went into the Trust Fund.

That money was used to buy securities.

The federal government issued the securities and then spent the money, no different than the bonds they sold to China, or the bonds they sold to Wall Street, or the bonds they sold to your employee pension fund.

The US government has to PAY BACK that money any time the SS Trust Fund needs it. That's why it's a cost to the taxpayers, because the money was borrowed and spent.

You got wars for that money, and Medicaid, and Medicare, and roads and bridges, and space travel, and government employee salaries, and natural disaster aid funding, etc., etc., and you got money to pay the interest on all the other debt the government holds.

 

[NYcarbineer]

[ The GOVT can't even sell this worthless paper to raise cash..

You're wrong. It was from those securities that the Trust Fund raised the cash to supplement the cash flow from the payroll taxes collected to pay recipients the last couple years.

That's how it works. The Trust Fund is one big savings account, where the savings accrue interest,

and where the Trust Fund can go to make withdrawals if need be to pay its obligations to Social Security recipients.

You're really ignoring every fact I post.. I posted statements from BOTH the SSA and CBO saying (essentially) that nothing of VALUE COMES OUT of the Trust Fund..

No withdrawals.. No investment.. Deficits are covered by "raising taxes, cutting benefits, or issuing NEW debt"....

If we can't get beyond that -- and you can't read --- we're at an impasse due to your learning capabilities..

You want to see those quotes again??

You're and idiot and you're wrong. You don't get that the 'value' of the Trust Fund is the simple fact that the federal government OUTSIDE THE TRUST FUND owes the Trust Fund the money it borrowed,

and the interest on that money.

The Trust Fund earns about 100 billion a year in interest.

 

[flacaltenn]

Saying that those IOU's which are actually treasury bills, are not a real firm asset is like saying that the dollars in your wallet are just "Paper" and only worth the cost of printing. Those IOU's carry the same guarantee that marketable government securities carry, savings bonds, and a number of other government securities carry, "backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government." The government has just as much obligation to pay back the bonds and interest to the Social Security trust fund as they do to any other bondholders. If that's not good enough for you, then you better find yourself another country. Oh, you better look pretty hard because most of those countries have investments in US government securities.

One more time.. They are NOT Treasury bills.. They are "special issue" interdepartmental notes. Read that IOUs. I've posted the SS admission of that several times now.

That's right.. A lot of countries HOLD REAL treasury bonds. And they'd be mightily pissed if we paid OURSELVES before them. We're in repetition now and you don't understand that these are INTERNAL non-marketable IOUs. Reality is -- SS IOUs are MORAL value only and are SUBORDINATE to maintaining the US credit rating by paying OTHER REAL investor/creditors first.

Your benefits are NOT DEFINED and NOT protected as witnessed by both SUpreme Ct ruling AND the Progs on here telling us to raise caps and means test and do all kind of horrible things to the agreement the people THOUGHT they had when they paid into this all their lives..

I WANT TO SEE THAT COMMITMENT HONORED.. Probably more than MikeK or some of the other deluded progs do.. Because I don't WANT it to become another welfare program unless that's a last resort.

No, they are not interdepartmental notes. These securities are issued by the Treasury not departments. According to the Social Security Administration the investments are in special issue treasury bills. Social Security refers to them as special obligation bonds and special issue treasury bonds. It really makes no difference. They are debt obligations issued by the US treasury which carries the same guarantee on all US debt. Apparently you do not seem to grasp the significance of that guarantee.

"By law, income to the trust funds must be invested, on a daily basis, in securities guaranteed as to both principal and interest by the Federal government. All securities held by the trust funds are "special issues" of the United States Treasury." Both the interest and principal is guaranteed by law.

Far from being "worthless IOUs," the investments held by the trust funds are backed by the full faith and credit of the U. S. Government. The government has always repaid Social Security, with interest. The special-issue securities are, therefore, just as safe as U.S. Savings Bonds or other financial instruments of the Federal government. These are the most secure investments
for the trust fund because unlike marketable securities, there is no fluctuation in value. They are always worth face value and can be redeemed at face value any time if needed.

I suspect that principal or interest payment to Social Security in order to pay benefits would take preference over payment to foreign governments simply for political reasons. However, I think this is a mute point. The federal government will never default on payment of principal or interest on any financial obligation. First because it will always have a source of funds either through issuance of debt obligations or direct creation of money. Secondly, a default of any size would create a crash in financial markets both national and international.


Trust Fund Data
Social Security History
Government - Trust Fund Management Program

Nothing has EVER been "repayed". Real cash came out of the economy with FICA excesses and was spent in the General Fund. IOUs were placed at SSA.. Benefit checks were covered with NEW liabilities to the taxpayers AT AN INCREASED COST to the taxpayers. You are flirting with a fairy tale if you believe the Trust Fund DID ANYTHING to relieve that financial burden on the taxpayers..

SSA "debt" that is now being covered by the treasury becomes indistinguable from obligations to REAL international bond holders. Should the ability of the Treasury to issue NEW debt ever be compromised by rising interest rates or market conditions, SSA would be told to go modify it's promises before a default on REAL US Treasuries ever occurred. Meaning that those "special issues" are SUBORDINATE to the MARKETABLE securities that the US is selling..

 

[flacaltenn]

When Social Security was first implemented in the 1930s, the government assigned the "retirement age" to be 65. After that, you could start drawing benefits.

By some strange coincidence, the average age of death in the 1930s was..... 65.

Meaning, half the people who would pay in all their lives, would never draw out a dime, except for death benefits.

And the rest wouldn't draw out very much before they, too, kicked off.

Social Security was designed to be "self-supporting"... for that time. With no thought of what might change in the future... like medical science advancing enough to enable people to live a LOT longer.

BTW, all the money you've paid in, has already been spent. In the SS Trust Fund is nothing but IOUs from the government. Remember Obama's statements a year or so ago, that if the Debt Ceiling wasn't raised, Social Security checks couldn't be written to its benefits recipients?

The money has been "borrowed" by other government agencies, and spent. All the money being paid out as benefits to retirees, is coming from the money you and I are paying in now. None of it is being saved for us. This is the defining characteristic of a Ponzi scheme.

Which brings us to the other issue.

Remember the other predictions various govt officials have made, saying that SS will be "solvent" for the next 15 or 20 or 30 years (depending on which politician you listen to)? They mean that they will be able to pay retirees their scheduled benefits from that money supposedly in the Trust Fund, until then.

But all the Trust Fund money has been "borrowed", and is gone. This means that those agencies that "borrowed" it, have to pay back ALL the money by that deadline (15 or 20 or etc. years from now), so it can be paid out to retirees that need it. And of course, if they are going to be replenishing the Trust Funds this way, they can't borrow any more while they're paying it back.

So, how much money is owed to the SS Trust Fund and other such govt-held trust funds?

Answer: 30.1% of the entire National Debt is owed to these Trust Funds. That's $4.7 trillion. (See reference below.)

That's how much must be paid back into the SS Trust fund and other such funds, to keep them "solvent" for that long.

Has anyone heard of any plans to pay off 30% of the National Debt within the next 15 years? Or 20? Or.....?

Neither have I.

Next time someone tells you how solvent the Social Security Trust fund is, or any other government trust fund, show him the numbers and see what he says then.

Reference: See Current and Back Issues: Overview: Daily Treasury Statement: Publications & Guidance: Financial Management Service . Pick a recent date, and and look under "Intergovernmental Holdings".

So, has anyone heard of any plans by the government to pay off 30% of the National Debt in 15, 20, or etc. years?

After just ONE LIFETIME, SSA faces a monumental crisis that was never addressed. Your observation that SSA was SUPPOSED to be "self-supporting" and "pay as you go" is now suddenly DENIED by Progressives and apologists for the criminal behaviour of the program mgt. By denying that the program is pay as you go -- these folks DENY that FICA tax income is anything different from General tax revenue.

We WILL ISSUE NEW DEBT to cover the shortfalls. So in no way will we be able to pay off 1/3 of the current debt.. We will simply SHIFT the debt from "off-book" to "on-book".

Little Acorn -- the solution WAS SIMPLE --- but it was never even considered..
We SHOULD HAVE used ALL of the SS surplus to buy up EXISTING debt that was ALREADY out in the MARKET --- REAL US Treasuries already issued.. That would have REDUCED our current total debt by about $3Trillion dollars.

OR --- we should have the surplus to buy down future reciepients by allowing them to save a portion of their payments equal to the surplus..

Plenty of rational REAL solutions existed. The thieves were not interested.