Socialism and the purpose of government

[Harpy Eagle]

Wrong. Nothing can ever make socialism work. A healthy society is a free society, which means it doesn't impose socialism on its members.

I disagree. The complete absence of free will can make socialism work.

The problem is that socialists naively believe that socialism and free will can co-exist.

Bear with me for a second.

Going to back to the Gauls and Native Americans.

We are told they are a version of anarchy, but are they not examples of socialism in its most pure form? Or as close as humans have ever come to it?

At it roots socialism is when means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned or regulated by the community as a whole. True socialism is not about government, it is not about government force.

The native Americans shared all that had with the tribe, when they hunted they hunted for the tribe, they grew crops for the tribe. Everyone contributed something to the community as a whole.

 

[bripat9643]

Democracy is far from perfect and is sometimes a dictatorship of the majority - but we have the court to prevent a such a dictatorship.

Democracy is a method of preventing war - a substitution for war- most of the time whichever side has more people will win any war. So we settle thru democracy.

Democracy is better than a dictatorship, but pure democracy is tyranny. That's why our founders saw fit to create a republic where the people are represented by democratic choice and those representatives are limited under a divided powers.

.

The evidence shows that monarchies tend to be better than democracy.

Where is there a practicing monarchy in this World?

What difference does it make?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

I am truly laughing out loud. Your whole course of action is to keep voting for the establishment while coming here and bitching....and you think that is going to make a difference!




Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

What do you think I should do, blow up the Pentagon?[/QUOTE]

Seems anything is better than voting status quo and then whining about it.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Written by slave owners and rapists.
Can't be all bad?

So, because the authors were involved in abhorrent practices such as slave owning and rape, their work is automatically abhorrent?

By your logic, the 1964 Civil Rights Act should be immediately stricken from the books, because LBJ was one racist motherfucker (among his COUNTLESS other abhorrent faults).

.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The debate over whether we should have more, or less, socialism in US government is largely a debate over the purpose of government. Socialists "believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically". That might sound relatively innocuous. But it's a radical claim, one we should consider seriously before indulging a more socialistic government.

The libertarian roots of the United States contradict this belief. In the US, neither society, nor the economy, is run democratically. Each is run collaboratively, voluntarily, by the individuals who make up society. Government merely serves as a "referee". Socialists want government to be the "coach".

thats why the constitution is so important,,,

all we have to do is read it then apply it,,,

The Constitution has been a dead letter since at least Woodrow Wilson...Time to quit pretending that it has any magical powers to keep politicians and bureaucrats in their lanes.

View attachment 258799

You and Spooner both misunderstand. The Constitution itself isn't supposed to stop anything. The power to keep politicians and bureaucrats in their lanes has always resided in the people. The Constitution is supposed to be our set of instructions on how to accomplish it. If we refuse to follow those instructions and exercise that power and make them behave, then we can't blame the Constitution; we have to blame ourselves.

dont include me in that because after 30 yrs of voting I have not once voted for a dem or republican for this reason among others,,,

I always vote for someone who believes in following the laws and not violating the inherent freedom of the people. Nevertheless, we the people of the United States of America are all in this together. Standing aside and pointing fingers and saying, "Well, I wasn't the one who knocked a hole in the boat!" isn't going to stop us from going down with the ship.

The people ultimately have the power; the people have allowed that power to go unexercised. For good or ill, I am still a member of the people. Whether or not you wish to exclude yourself from that group is up to you.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Democracy is far from perfect and is sometimes a dictatorship of the majority - but we have the court to prevent a such a dictatorship.

Democracy is a method of preventing war - a substitution for war- most of the time whichever side has more people will win any war. So we settle thru democracy.

Democracy is better than a dictatorship, but pure democracy is tyranny. That's why our founders saw fit to create a republic where the people are represented by democratic choice and those representatives are limited under a divided powers.

.

And now the problem is those powers are less and less divided and are becoming more consolidated under the executive branch.

 

[bripat9643]

Wrong. Nothing can ever make socialism work. A healthy society is a free society, which means it doesn't impose socialism on its members.

I disagree. The complete absence of free will can make socialism work.

The problem is that socialists naively believe that socialism and free will can co-exist.

Bear with me for a second.

Going to back to the Gauls and Native Americans.

We are told they are a version of anarchy, but are they not examples of socialism in its most pure form? Or as close as humans have ever come to it?

No.

At it roots socialism is when means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned or regulated by the community as a whole. True socialism is not about government, it is not about government force.

Government is the only means "the community" has for regulating production, distribution, and exchange. What if someone doesn't want to produce what the community tells him to produce?

The native Americans shared all that had with the tribe, when they hunted they hunted for the tribe, they grew crops for the tribe. Everyone contributed something to the community as a whole.

That's total bullshit. The plains Indians didn't believe you could own the land. They treated it as a free resource. Each brave hunted for his family, not for the tribe. However, for tribes that practiced agriculture, like the Iroquois, they definitely believe in private property. Each family had its own plot. They didn't farm the land communally.

Communism has never worked, and that's what you're claiming the Indians practiced.

 

[bripat9643]

The debate over whether we should have more, or less, socialism in US government is largely a debate over the purpose of government. Socialists "believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically". That might sound relatively innocuous. But it's a radical claim, one we should consider seriously before indulging a more socialistic government.

The libertarian roots of the United States contradict this belief. In the US, neither society, nor the economy, is run democratically. Each is run collaboratively, voluntarily, by the individuals who make up society. Government merely serves as a "referee". Socialists want government to be the "coach".

thats why the constitution is so important,,,

all we have to do is read it then apply it,,,

The Constitution has been a dead letter since at least Woodrow Wilson...Time to quit pretending that it has any magical powers to keep politicians and bureaucrats in their lanes.

View attachment 258799

You and Spooner both misunderstand. The Constitution itself isn't supposed to stop anything. The power to keep politicians and bureaucrats in their lanes has always resided in the people. The Constitution is supposed to be our set of instructions on how to accomplish it. If we refuse to follow those instructions and exercise that power and make them behave, then we can't blame the Constitution; we have to blame ourselves.

dont include me in that because after 30 yrs of voting I have not once voted for a dem or republican for this reason among others,,,

I always vote for someone who believes in following the laws and not violating the inherent freedom of the people. Nevertheless, we the people of the United States of America are all in this together. Standing aside and pointing fingers and saying, "Well, I wasn't the one who knocked a hole in the boat!" isn't going to stop us from going down with the ship.

The people ultimately have the power; the people have allowed that power to go unexercised. For good or ill, I am still a member of the people. Whether or not you wish to exclude yourself from that group is up to you.

Even if it didn't fix the hole in the boat, that wouldn't stop me from killing the guy who made the hole.

 

[bripat9643]

I am truly laughing out loud. Your whole course of action is to keep voting for the establishment while coming here and bitching....and you think that is going to make a difference!




Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

What do you think I should do, blow up the Pentagon?

Seems anything is better than voting status quo and then whining about it.

That isn't all I do, shit for brains. You're the one who is defending the status quo in here.

 

[sartre play]

That love it or leave it was dumb when it started in the 60s and its still dumb. it means do it our way or get the hell out. Like one citizens political mind set has more value than an opposing citizens political mind set. All citizens have a right to there view, and no American should or has to get the hell out because they don't think like you.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Wrong. Nothing can ever make socialism work. A healthy society is a free society, which means it doesn't impose socialism on its members.

I disagree. The complete absence of free will can make socialism work.

The problem is that socialists naively believe that socialism and free will can co-exist.

Bear with me for a second.

Going to back to the Gauls and Native Americans.

We are told they are a version of anarchy, but are they not examples of socialism in its most pure form? Or as close as humans have ever come to it?

No.

At it roots socialism is when means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned or regulated by the community as a whole. True socialism is not about government, it is not about government force.

Government is the only means "the community" has for regulating production, distribution, and exchange. What if someone doesn't want to produce what the community tells him to produce?

The native Americans shared all that had with the tribe, when they hunted they hunted for the tribe, they grew crops for the tribe. Everyone contributed something to the community as a whole.

That's total bullshit. The plains Indians didn't believe you could own the land. They treated it as a free resource. Each brave hunted for his family, not for the tribe. However, for tribes that practiced agriculture, like the Iroquois, they definitely believe in private property. Each family had its own plot. They didn't farm the land communally.

Communism has never worked, and that's what you're claiming the Indians practiced.

No, I am claiming the Indians practiced socialism, not communism. communism is governmental ownership of everything.

When the Indians hunted they hunted in parties for the tribe, not for each individual in the hunting party. Treating something as a free resource is exactly what true socialism is all about, there is no private ownership.

This is also why it has never worked, human nature does not work that way.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

That isn't all I do, shit for brains. You're the one who is defending the status que in here.

No, I am just fighting against the idea of no government at all. you are the one that votes for status quo and then whines about it on an internet forum.

 

[progressive hunter]

The debate over whether we should have more, or less, socialism in US government is largely a debate over the purpose of government. Socialists "believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically". That might sound relatively innocuous. But it's a radical claim, one we should consider seriously before indulging a more socialistic government.

The libertarian roots of the United States contradict this belief. In the US, neither society, nor the economy, is run democratically. Each is run collaboratively, voluntarily, by the individuals who make up society. Government merely serves as a "referee". Socialists want government to be the "coach".

thats why the constitution is so important,,,

all we have to do is read it then apply it,,,

The Constitution has been a dead letter since at least Woodrow Wilson...Time to quit pretending that it has any magical powers to keep politicians and bureaucrats in their lanes.

View attachment 258799

You and Spooner both misunderstand. The Constitution itself isn't supposed to stop anything. The power to keep politicians and bureaucrats in their lanes has always resided in the people. The Constitution is supposed to be our set of instructions on how to accomplish it. If we refuse to follow those instructions and exercise that power and make them behave, then we can't blame the Constitution; we have to blame ourselves.

dont include me in that because after 30 yrs of voting I have not once voted for a dem or republican for this reason among others,,,

I always vote for someone who believes in following the laws and not violating the inherent freedom of the people. Nevertheless, we the people of the United States of America are all in this together. Standing aside and pointing fingers and saying, "Well, I wasn't the one who knocked a hole in the boat!" isn't going to stop us from going down with the ship.

The people ultimately have the power; the people have allowed that power to go unexercised. For good or ill, I am still a member of the people. Whether or not you wish to exclude yourself from that group is up to you.

and at no time have I ever sat back and just pointed fingers,,,my whole life I have been not just screaming from the roof tops that we are being played by the dem and repube partys but trying to show and explain how and why,,,and what the solution is,,,which is why I keep bringing up the constitution

its the true kool-aid drinkers thats the problem,,they just want to hate the other guys and ignore the reality of it all

 

[bripat9643]

Written by slave owners and rapists.
Can't be all bad?

So, because the authors were involved in abhorrent practices such as slave owning and rape, their work is automatically abhorrent?

By your logic, the 1964 Civil Rights Act should be immediately stricken from the books, because LBJ was one racist motherfucker (among his COUNTLESS other abhorrent faults).

.

Typical left wing idiot judging the Founders by today's standards.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

If your idea of being a 'rare talent' is being a great thief, then no, you can not exploit that talent.

What do you mean by "great thief"?

Government (the greatest of all thieves) should not be allowed to exploit its talent? I agree.

The French rights-of-man documents says something like:

People should be free to do what they like up to the point that their freedom infringes on other people rights. That's where their freedom ends.

Well, I agree with that statement.

You obviously don't.

.

 

[bripat9643]

That isn't all I do, shit for brains. You're the one who is defending the status que in here.

No, I am just fighting against the idea of no government at all. you are the one that votes for status quo and then whines about it on an internet forum.

I'm really tired of your lame insulting bullshit.

You have admitted that your moral code is no better than that of a thug. That's not something I would be proud to post in an internet forum.

 

[Hum Dinger]

View attachment 259049

If you use U.S. dollars then you are consenting to pay taxes.

Otherwise you are free not to accept or offer U.S. dollars in your transactions.

Horseshit. The government forces you to use its phony money. It has outlawed all the other choices.

No it hasn't. There are towns that print their own currency. Super market coupons are a form of currency. Banks print teller's checks.There are lots and lots of forms of currency. You can print you own notes any time you want.

U.S. dollars are just a government note.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Even if it didn't fix the hole in the boat, that wouldn't stop me from killing the guy who made the hole.

and this is anarchy in its purest form, it is always "might makes right" and survival of the fittest.

If you have land that I want and I have more guns than you, then there is nothing about anarchy that would stop that from happening, or even want to stop that from happening.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Government should be whittled down until we can drown it in a bathtub.

THAT should be the goal. Not refusing to admit government's inevitability.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

That isn't all I do, shit for brains. You're the one who is defending the status que in here.

No, I am just fighting against the idea of no government at all. you are the one that votes for status quo and then whines about it on an internet forum.

I'm really tired of your lame insulting bullshit.

.