Solar Power: Is It Time for the Big Push?

[Politico]

Solar is not an investment. It is something you invest in.

 

[Saigon]

Solar is not an investment. It is something you invest in.

And then you get a return, in the form of lower water-heating costs for instance.

That is what people here mean by "investment"

I don't see solar as a form of electricity generation, but I do think it is ideal for homeowners to use in sunny areas. Places like Cyprus and Malta now have solar panels on 90% of homes, and it's terrific for everyone.

To my mind this is the future of solar, and not massive stations out in the desert.

Tidal and nuclear will carry the weight of heavy electricity generation in future, with some gas as well. Coal is history.

 

[Saigon]

Then it should be easy for you to list those subsidies. Be specific.

ALL forms of electricity production receive subsidies - usually in the form of start-up capital or artificial feed-in tariffs.

It isn't cheap to build a hydro dam, nuclear power station or tidal power station.

 

[Politico]

Investment means getting off the grid. The savings take years to recoup which is worth it. I don't give a crap what the main energy grid uses.

 

[Saigon]

Investment means getting off the grid. The savings takes years to recoup which is worth it. I don't give a crap what the main energy grid uses.

For most people there is no need to go off the grid.

Installing a solar panel is a good investment for any family that uses a lot of hot water, and who live in a sunny region.

As mentioned, in some countries up to 90% of homes have solar water heating. I don't see the downside to that.

 

[bripat9643]

Solar power: Is it time for the big push?

Jan. 31, 2013 — There are great expectations for solar power, especially in the coming years, when the International Energy Agency projects solar to grow faster than any other renewable power. But what does science need to do to more fully respond to the opportunities ahead?

Recently, three researchers discussed this with fellow scientist Harry A. Atwater, Jr., director of the DOE Energy Frontier Research Center on Light-Material Interactions in Solar Energy Conversion, as well as member of the Kavli Nanoscience Institute (KNI) at the California Institute of Technology. To really give solar power a push, the scientists raised advancing how new materials are created, developed and brought to industry.
"We need to engage with manufacturers and end-users of the technology as soon as possible, rather than spend years doing lab demonstrations before anyone talks with industry," said Michael Wasielewski, director of the Argonne-Northwestern Solar Energy Research Center and professor at Northwestern University. "We need to take advantage of manufacturers' expertise in how things are really done. On our part, we need to let them know about promising materials sooner, so they start to think about commercialization pathways earlier in the process."
<more>

 

[Mr. H.]

Coal is history.

That's... a bit of a stretch.

Overall, coal-fired generation in 2035 is 2 percent higher than in 2010 but still 6 percent below the 2007 pre-recession level.

U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) - Source

 

[Spoonman]

I'll tell you what. I'm on solar. My house is 100% electric. I haven't had a utility bill in 3 years and I get paid back for the excess I sell back to the power company. Not to mention the SREC credits. IMO, you can't beat it.

 

[asterism]

Investment means getting off the grid. The savings takes years to recoup which is worth it. I don't give a crap what the main energy grid uses.

For most people there is no need to go off the grid.

Installing a solar panel is a good investment for any family that uses a lot of hot water, and who live in a sunny region.

As mentioned, in some countries up to 90% of homes have solar water heating. I don't see the downside to that.

It's not really a good investment yet. They cost about $3000 and don't last long enough to save money. My all electric water heater costs $300 per year to run. Solar would save about half of that since people don't generally use much hot water when the sun is high enough to heat water.

None of the systems on the market today will last 20 years.

 

[asterism]

I'll tell you what. I'm on solar. My house is 100% electric. I haven't had a utility bill in 3 years and I get paid back for the excess I sell back to the power company. Not to mention the SREC credits. IMO, you can't beat it.

How big is your house and how much did your system cost? How old is it and how much is annual maintenance.

A grid-tied system I had quoted 2 years ago was $150,000 including install and it cost $1500 per year in maintenance assuming no batteries failed.

 

[Spoonman]

I'll tell you what. I'm on solar. My house is 100% electric. I haven't had a utility bill in 3 years and I get paid back for the excess I sell back to the power company. Not to mention the SREC credits. IMO, you can't beat it.

How big is your house and how much did your system cost? How old is it and how much is annual maintenance.

A grid-tied system I had quoted 2 years ago was $150,000 including install and it cost $1500 per year in maintenance assuming no batteries failed.

wow, that seems kind of high. the system was $58,000 including reinforcing the roof. it's a 10K system. my total demand is about 7.5K per year. there is no maintenance after that. Installation was offset by a 30% federal rebate and a 10% state rebate. Plus SREC's credits for 15 years. the system paid itself off in about 3 years.

 

[Old Rocks]

Investment means getting off the grid. The savings takes years to recoup which is worth it. I don't give a crap what the main energy grid uses.

For most people there is no need to go off the grid.

Installing a solar panel is a good investment for any family that uses a lot of hot water, and who live in a sunny region.

As mentioned, in some countries up to 90% of homes have solar water heating. I don't see the downside to that.

It's not really a good investment yet. They cost about $3000 and don't last long enough to save money. My all electric water heater costs $300 per year to run. Solar would save about half of that since people don't generally use much hot water when the sun is high enough to heat water.

None of the systems on the market today will last 20 years.

Basics



Solar panels have no moving parts, so as long as they remain sealed they can work. The typical manufacturer's warranty on a solar panel is 25 to 30 years, but panels can last up to 40 years with care and attention.



Read more: Life Expectancy of Solar Panels | eHow.com Life Expectancy of Solar Panels | eHow.com

How long do solar electric PV panels last? | CAT Information Service

Research from Switzerland: Still good after 20 years
The LEE-TISO testing centre for PV components at the University of Applied Sciences of Southern Switzerland installed Europe’s first grid-connected PV plant, a 10kW roof, in May 1982. They analysed the performance of the panels in 2002 and published the results in a scientific paper (Chianese et al, 2003). The PV plant was installed with 288 monocrystalline modules and an initial nominal plant power raring of 10.7kW, or an average of 37W peak rating per panel. Interestingly, when the panels were tested in 1983, the peak power output of the panels came to an average of 34W, 9% less than the initial rated peak output. This steep initial drop is normal – even with modern PV panels a loss of 5% over the first 12 months is not uncommon.

When the panels were tested in 2002, the average peak output of the panels was 32.9W – 11% lower than the nominal value in 1982 and only 3.2% lower than the measured value in 1983. In other words, between 1983 and 2002 the panels peak output had only degraded by around 0.2% per year since 1983 (0.5% per year against initial nominal rating).

 

[Old Rocks]

11 Kw system, under $20,000.

Grid tie Solar Power Systems - Grid tie Solar Panel Systems

And the price is dropping every year.

 

[asterism]

I'll tell you what. I'm on solar. My house is 100% electric. I haven't had a utility bill in 3 years and I get paid back for the excess I sell back to the power company. Not to mention the SREC credits. IMO, you can't beat it.

How big is your house and how much did your system cost? How old is it and how much is annual maintenance.

A grid-tied system I had quoted 2 years ago was $150,000 including install and it cost $1500 per year in maintenance assuming no batteries failed.

wow, that seems kind of high. the system was $58,000 including reinforcing the roof. it's a 10K system. my total demand is about 7.5K per year. there is no maintenance after that. Installation was offset by a 30% federal rebate and a 10% state rebate. Plus SREC's credits for 15 years. the system paid itself off in about 3 years.

What's your peak demand? Mine was measured at 22,000 W. Your total demand is 7500 Kwh? So your electric bill was less than $100 per month?

 

[asterism]

For most people there is no need to go off the grid.

Installing a solar panel is a good investment for any family that uses a lot of hot water, and who live in a sunny region.

As mentioned, in some countries up to 90% of homes have solar water heating. I don't see the downside to that.

It's not really a good investment yet. They cost about $3000 and don't last long enough to save money. My all electric water heater costs $300 per year to run. Solar would save about half of that since people don't generally use much hot water when the sun is high enough to heat water.

None of the systems on the market today will last 20 years.

Basics



Solar panels have no moving parts, so as long as they remain sealed they can work. The typical manufacturer's warranty on a solar panel is 25 to 30 years, but panels can last up to 40 years with care and attention.



Read more: Life Expectancy of Solar Panels | eHow.com Life Expectancy of Solar Panels | eHow.com

How long do solar electric PV panels last? | CAT Information Service

Research from Switzerland: Still good after 20 years
The LEE-TISO testing centre for PV components at the University of Applied Sciences of Southern Switzerland installed Europe’s first grid-connected PV plant, a 10kW roof, in May 1982. They analysed the performance of the panels in 2002 and published the results in a scientific paper (Chianese et al, 2003). The PV plant was installed with 288 monocrystalline modules and an initial nominal plant power raring of 10.7kW, or an average of 37W peak rating per panel. Interestingly, when the panels were tested in 1983, the peak power output of the panels came to an average of 34W, 9% less than the initial rated peak output. This steep initial drop is normal – even with modern PV panels a loss of 5% over the first 12 months is not uncommon.

When the panels were tested in 2002, the average peak output of the panels was 32.9W – 11% lower than the nominal value in 1982 and only 3.2% lower than the measured value in 1983. In other words, between 1983 and 2002 the panels peak output had only degraded by around 0.2% per year since 1983 (0.5% per year against initial nominal rating).

There's more to a hot water heater than just the solar panels. Unlike you, I've actually researched this from the standpoint of buying and installing systems in my house.

Also, solar panels must be clean to be effective. Dirt and mildew reduce their energy producing power significantly. Of course you'd know this if you actually walked the walk instead of simply talking the talk.

Why don't YOU have solar if you think it's so great?

 

[asterism]

11 Kw system, under $20,000.

Grid tie Solar Power Systems - Grid tie Solar Panel Systems

And the price is dropping every year.

Now double that cost since the installation, racks (50 required for the one you quoted), and provisioning isn't included. The permitting isn't included. The wiring isn't included.

That 12.25 Kw system doesn't deliver near that much power in real life. It will theoretically deliver that much power when the sun is directly overhead on a clear day. Also, that system will only produce enough power at peak performance to run one of my two main air conditioners plus the refrigerator. No oven, no cooktop, no washer, no dryer, and no water heater.

 

[Saigon]

Coal is history.

That's... a bit of a stretch.

Overall, coal-fired generation in 2035 is 2 percent higher than in 2010 but still 6 percent below the 2007 pre-recession level.

U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) - Source

You are right that usage of coail is rising, because of the demand in China and India, but as a technology it is history, and no developed country will open another coal-fired plant.

China and India will use coal for another 20 years, but both are also investing heavily in renewables, and they will replace coal in time. India and China are 20 years behind the EU, but it is the same basic trend.

 

[Mr. H.]

Coal is history.

That's... a bit of a stretch.

Overall, coal-fired generation in 2035 is 2 percent higher than in 2010 but still 6 percent below the 2007 pre-recession level.

U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) - Source

You are right that usage of coail is rising, because of the demand in China and India, but as a technology it is history, and no developed country will open another coal-fired plant.

China and India will use coal for another 20 years, but both are also investing heavily in renewables, and they will replace coal in time. India and China are 20 years behind the EU, but it is the same basic trend.

The future is history?

The EIA itself states that coal consumption in 2035 will be 6% above today's figures.

I'm... beginning to think that you are fond of the fermented spirits.

You're my kinda people.

 

[Saigon]

Mr H -

I don't accept that you 2035 figure is 100% accurate. It's an estimate.

I read an article yesterday suggesting consumption would rise until perhaps 2018 or 2020, and then drop as China starts bringing renewables online.

 

[Spoonman]

11 Kw system, under $20,000.

Grid tie Solar Power Systems - Grid tie Solar Panel Systems

And the price is dropping every year.

Now double that cost since the installation, racks (50 required for the one you quoted), and provisioning isn't included. The permitting isn't included. The wiring isn't included.

That 12.25 Kw system doesn't deliver near that much power in real life. It will theoretically deliver that much power when the sun is directly overhead on a clear day. Also, that system will only produce enough power at peak performance to run one of my two main air conditioners plus the refrigerator. No oven, no cooktop, no washer, no dryer, and no water heater.

my 10K system is producing about 12K per year. I run everything off solar. heat, AC, hot water, stove, all appliances. I don't have gas or oil anything. my house is net zero rated. and at the end of the year I have surplus produced I sell back