Something that I think deserves it's own thread.

[YoursTruly]

The Democrat Party has never been the party of "border security."

 

[elektra]

of course the republicans outspend the democrats, 95% of the budget is carried over from the previous year.

This is why we voted for Trump, to end the waste, the corruption, to reduce the size of government, to end all the stupid spending. Sadly it is hard to get the swamp to go along, the swamp includes lousy government employees.

 

[FA_Q2]

All good points. But that's not really the subject of this thread. It's not to hash out what presidents done wrong. It's more about the loyalty of the people who stand behind them, even when they do something their supporters disagree with.

Revenge politic? Or is it because so many people love to argue.

It was more a comment on the difference between the core ethic and the actual governing policies of the party. The right claims a core ethic of reducing spending. Like you mention on your OP, they oppose democrat spending on the sole basis that it is the democrats doing the spending because the second they get in office they do the exact same thing. They oppose spending on ‘green’ projects not because they are green but because the democrats support green spending as they turn right around and support spending on any other energy project that is not green. You think anyone on the right actually gives a shit about coal? most of them have no clue about coal whatsoever but the dems hate coal so the right must support it in any way they can.



Spending is one of the most obvious areas where the parties act in direct opposition to each other rather than on any core ethic. Corps are another. The left cant get them enough Twitter, one of the largest corps out there. The right vehemently opposes them. The right hates Disney so the left, reflexively, loves Disney even though they are a terrible corp all around.



Thunk’s hypocrisy simply outlines this. The instant he has to come face to face with a violation of a stated core ethic it MUST be blamed on the other party because it is them who stand for it even when it is not.



Speech is another good example. There was a time when the left believed in free speech to the point of defending a Natzi’s right to speak. As soon as the right started championing free speech though such core values were abandoned in an instant and now they stand firmly against free speech. Of course now this controversy has simply become a method to exploit new powers but that really is off topic.

 

[YoursTruly]

You act like that's news.

You wouldn't believe how many Republican still don't know this. And when you tell them, instead of doing 5 minutes of research to see for themselves, they just call you a childish name and ignore the facts.

 

[YoursTruly]

of course the republicans outspend the democrats, 95% of the budget is carried over from the previous year.

This is why we voted for Trump, to end the waste, the corruption, to reduce the size of government, to end all the stupid spending. Sadly it is hard to get the swamp to go along, the swamp includes lousy government employees.

Trump vetoed only one spending bill, out of many, in his 4 years. So it could be said that it's hard to get the government to even try, when they know the president is just going to go along with it.
Especially when Trumps idea of spending is to just print more money. <<<<He actually said that.

 

[BluesLegend]

People and countries have divided for thousands of years over their differences. Many true Americans would be happy to divorce the Democrats. We no longer have anything in common with that group of people. Dems have grown rabidly intolerant of anything but their world view so it's time to go our separate ways.

 

[Oddball]

You wouldn't believe how many Republican still don't know this. And when you tell them, instead of doing 5 minutes of research to see for themselves, they just call you a childish name and ignore the facts.

OK....So you know where the brick wall is....That's a handy piece of information.

Where's the overlap, and how do you use that to sway them to your side?

 

[YoursTruly]

It was more a comment on the difference between the core ethic and the actual governing policies of the party. The right claims a core ethic of reducing spending. Like you mention on your OP, they oppose democrat spending on the sole basis that it is the democrats doing the spending because the second they get in office they do the exact same thing. They oppose spending on ‘green’ projects not because they are green but because the democrats support green spending as they turn right around and support spending on any other energy project that is not green. You think anyone on the right actually gives a shit about coal? most of them have no clue about coal whatsoever but the dems hate coal so the right must support it in any way they can.



Spending is one of the most obvious areas where the parties act in direct opposition to each other rather than on any core ethic. Corps are another. The left cant get them enough Twitter, one of the largest corps out there. The right vehemently opposes them. The right hates Disney so the left, reflexively, loves Disney even though they are a terrible corp all around.



Thunk’s hypocrisy simply outlines this. The instant he has to come face to face with a violation of a stated core ethic it MUST be blamed on the other party because it is them who stand for it even when it is not.



Speech is another good example. There was a time when the left believed in free speech to the point of defending a Natzi’s right to speak. As soon as the right started championing free speech though such core values were abandoned in an instant and now they stand firmly against free speech. Of course now this controversy has simply become a method to exploit new powers but that really is off topic.

Thank you for elaborating on this and bringing this thread back to the very reason I posted it. The issues are only the examples. But the issues became the point, somehow.

I remember when the ACLU was adamant about protecting free speech. But they became an arm of the left, when the left flipped flopped on that issue.
I guess I'm old enough to remember a lot of the flip flops the party's have made in the last 4 decades.
I just can't figure how so many people let their party flip. I suppose it's exactly like you said. That they don't really care about the issues themselves. If they did, they'd hold their party accountable.

Which is how we end up with two party's that are useless, but still have control.

 

[YoursTruly]

People and countries have divided for thousands of years over their differences. Many true Americans would be happy to divorce the Democrats. We no longer have anything in common with that group of people. Dems have grown rabidly intolerant of anything but their world view so it's time to go our separate ways.

We get it. You're loyal to the GOP. And so everything that's wrong in this country is because of the democrats.

It's this kind of thinking that allows the GOP to get worse and worse.
I used to be a loyal Republican, just like you. But then someone taught me what fiscal conservatism actually was. And now I'm loyal to no party.

You probably see me as a traitor. IIRC, you've at least once deemed me a liberal. I'm not one of those either.

 

[YoursTruly]

OK....So you know where the brick wall is....That's a handy piece of information.

Where's the overlap, and how do you use that to sway them to your side?

There's no swaying anyone now a days, because no on either side listens.
Try to educate democrats on how illegals are reducing the value of labor for every industry and trade they invade, making it harder for Americans to get jobs in those fields, and you're deemed a racist. Or some other retarded word.
The die hard Republicans do the same thing.

 

[BluesLegend]

Swayed? Dems do nothing but LIE through their teeth. Weaponize government to fabricate shit on their opponents. Their polices suck ass, hurt the poor and middle class. The corrupt bunch of rat bastards spend most of their time scheming how to get rich, sell out vs representing the people. There's no middle ground there.

 

[YoursTruly]

You get nothing. Here, get my complete hatred for asshole lying corrupt shit stain Democrats. Put a check mark by that. Now you get something.

Tell me something, was banning bump stocks a democrat thing? How about the Platinum Plan, that gave $500 BILLION to black communities, just because they were BLACK communities? How about funding gender studies. Was that democrat thing? Or getting Saudi Arabia, Mexico and US oil companies to REDUCE oil production when we were all enjoying low prices on gas.

Were those democrat things?

 

[scruffy]

This OP is designed solely to divide Republicans.

Guess what, Republicans are already divided.

 

[YoursTruly]

Yeah right, you can make some profound assumptions about the political climate but the dirty little secret is that it's all about propaganda and the people who are in charge of propaganda, the mainstream media, are the willing accomplices of the democrat party. We might be on the verge of nuclear war and we have a drooling mentally impaired leader at the helm and the media ignores it and concentrates on destroying the former president.

What does any of that have to do with the subject of this thread? Are you ignoring it on purpose? Seriously, you're doing exactly what and why this thread even exists.

 

[Dadoalex]

This was posted on another thread. But it's so deep, and spot on, I think it would be worth wild to discuss this topic on it's own (since it wasn't really on topic of the OP in the other thread)

The political divide in this country, especially on forums like this stems from a lot of issues. Some are legit disagreements. And some are merely political loyalty. "Sticking it to the other side" seems to be the going thing. Revenge politics, as they say. But on a social level.



The proof in this statement can be seen in the many MANY flip flops the party's have taken in the last several decades. Used to be, the GOP was the party of fiscal conservatism. They still campaign on being fiscal conservatives. But the fact is, the right has spent more money and increased the debt ceiling more times since at least 1980, than the democrats have.
And as far as the democrats go, they used to be the party of border security. They're the ones who come up with the idea of fencing off the border and putting large amounts of border patrols on it. This was back when they seem to care about the working class Americans and wanted to protect their jobs.

Those are just two examples. But FA_Q2 nailed in his statement.

What republican is going to stand up against Trumps spending problem, in favor of keeping our economy from collapsing from inflation created by all the money he's going to borrow when he's re elected? What democrat is going to stand up against Biden's lax border problem, in favor of the American working man? Are these issue important enough for anyone to strongly oppose their party and it's leaders and decide for yourself, instead of being told what and who to support?

You make a few errors in your premise.

The people in the Democratic party who were "border hawks" in 1966 are now Republicans. Thus the GOP moves further right on the issue while the DEMS move closer to the middle.
This holds true of the anti-abortion, pro-gun, anti-immigrant, and other people holding extreme views on a number of subjects. They joined the GOP because, in their minds, the GOP listened to their concerns. They all joined the GOP driving the GOP further and further toward the Reactionary end of the scale until the GOP of 1966 would not recognize the GOP of 2023.

The same is true to some extent for the Democratic party. In 1966 the Democratic party was split along race issue which incorporates, to some extent the border issue, lines. Southern Democrats opposed any movement away from integration while Northern Democrats opposed segregation. What held them together was what holds DEMS together today. Economic issues. Yes dems are left on social issues buy social issues are economic issues. Equal housing, equal pay, equal protection under the law. When DEMS with some GOP support started passing civil rights legislation the southern DEMS in 68 revolted and Wallace handed Nixon the presidency. As the segregationist DEMS left the party the political center of the country shifted right.

If you look at DEMS positions on social change today they are really no different than 1966.

To respond to your question:
The Democratic party philosophically is nearly exactly where it was in 1966. It's core concern is economic well being of everyone and, as when the CRA and VRA passed, social issues are economic issues.
The Republicans, on the other hand have no core philosophy anymore. In 66 the GOP could be summed up by the 50's quote "what's good for GM is good for America." Fiscal responsibility, NOT conservatism, RESPONSIBILITY was a central theme and those deficits were actually offensive (that's me in 76). Then along came Reagan and the GOP has never seen a deficit it didn't love ever since. Think about it, is it
Fiscal Responsibility
Military might
Law and order
Naaah, the speak about those things but when you look at the record other than spend hundreds of billions on weapons systems no one will ever see work, not so much.
But there are issues that will, MUST, draw support from every elected Republican, OR ELSE...the dreaded primary. those issues you ask?
Zero tolerance abortion from the moment of conception
Eliminate all gun control laws
Outlaw all Queer actions, activities, public appearances, job protections, media appearances, under penalty of death
Outlaw pot

Of course the problem for the GOP is that these issues don't draw people together, they drive them apart. To solve this conundrum?
The GOP daily flow of faux outrage. You see it here every day.
"OMG Joe Biden went to the beach and relaxed while surrounded by 2 dozen armed agents and NOBODY held a rally"
"OMG did you know the VP is Black...AND A WOMAN??????"
"OMG did you hear they had a drag show and the one miming Cher made a pelvic thrust...AND THERE'S A SCHOOL less than a mile away!!!!"
This "anger mongering" is the only method the GOP has now to gain support. They can't legitimately discuss the economy, jobs, national security without getting raised eyebrows and barely hidden sniggers.

Your premise attempts to equivocate the DEM and GOP positions and that those positions have changed. I do reject the premise. Philosophically the DEMS are exactly where they were 60 years ago but the GOP has move so far to the right that the scale itself has shifted right.

What that means is that ideolically we, as a people, have no center anymore. Those that were in the center are now on the left and as more and more conservatives drive the GOP further and further right the empty center grows.

Surely we can understand the implications of an ideologically vacant center?
Eventually what we call the 'left' will win. Sorry conservatives, it is the way of things. You hold on to what was and what is will overwhelm you. When it does, there will be no ideological right to oppose it and the left's word will become law.

THAT my friends is when this nation will end. Our system is set up to SLOOOOOOOWWWW things down. Force us to take tiny baby steps. Those baby steps allow us to correct course before we do too much damage. But the system only works when everyone involved wants to govern. When one side or the other fails to govern the system balance fails and we stumble headfirst into the outhouse hole. Look to Florida and California for examples.

Thanks for the thread.

 

[BluesLegend]

Tell me something, was banning bump stocks a democrat thing? How about the Platinum Plan, that gave $500 BILLION to black communities, just because they were BLACK communities? How about funding gender studies. Was that democrat thing? Or getting Saudi Arabia, Mexico and US oil companies to REDUCE oil production when we were all enjoying low prices on gas.

Were those democrat things?

When Biden/Dem shit border policies get your younger brother killed, and over 200,000 other Americans then you can speak to me about asshole Dem policies. That's just the number killed. Not the number maimed by the drunk ass bastards crashing into people with no license or insurance. Those raped. Those assaulted and robbed.

You should run away and hide, we bring facts to the debate here. They will disrupt the left wing propaganda.

 

[Concerned American]

Ah, the general canned response. When the left spends money they are spending money. When the right spends money it is actually the left spending money. The right has never spent money, ever.

That is not what you said. You said the repubs were the spenders. Congress spends and they threaten the POTUS with a gov't shut down. Please keep up with reality.

 

[frigidweirdo]

This was posted on another thread. But it's so deep, and spot on, I think it would be worth wild to discuss this topic on it's own (since it wasn't really on topic of the OP in the other thread)

The political divide in this country, especially on forums like this stems from a lot of issues. Some are legit disagreements. And some are merely political loyalty. "Sticking it to the other side" seems to be the going thing. Revenge politics, as they say. But on a social level.



The proof in this statement can be seen in the many MANY flip flops the party's have taken in the last several decades. Used to be, the GOP was the party of fiscal conservatism. They still campaign on being fiscal conservatives. But the fact is, the right has spent more money and increased the debt ceiling more times since at least 1980, than the democrats have.
And as far as the democrats go, they used to be the party of border security. They're the ones who come up with the idea of fencing off the border and putting large amounts of border patrols on it. This was back when they seem to care about the working class Americans and wanted to protect their jobs.

Those are just two examples. But FA_Q2 nailed in his statement.

What republican is going to stand up against Trumps spending problem, in favor of keeping our economy from collapsing from inflation created by all the money he's going to borrow when he's re elected? What democrat is going to stand up against Biden's lax border problem, in favor of the American working man? Are these issue important enough for anyone to strongly oppose their party and it's leaders and decide for yourself, instead of being told what and who to support?

The reason for such partisanship is the electoral system. The FPTP benefits the major parties, so people feel they shouldn't bother voting third party, so they don't.
So the main two parties are so secure in their positions that they need to differentiate themselves, without alienating too many people. So they are rather vague on most things, then have a few strong issues, like abortion and guns, that aren't really major issues, they're secondary issues.

 

[YoursTruly]

When Biden/Dem shit border policies get your younger brother killed, and over 200,000 other Americans then you can speak to me about asshole Dem policies. That's just the number killed. Not the number maimed by the drunk ass bastards crashing into people with no license or insurance. Those raped. Those assaulted and robbed.

You should run away and hide, we bring facts to the debate here. They will disrupt the left wing propaganda.

So you're just going to dodge my questions and go straight into something be both get. Democrats are bad. Duh!! I get it. I got it decades ago. You're preaching to the choir on that subject.
Now, do you care to address my questions? Or do you just wanna keep ignoring the "democrat-like" things that Trump shoved in our faces?

 

[YoursTruly]

The reason for such partisanship is the electoral system. The FPTP benefits the major parties, so people feel they shouldn't bother voting third party, so they don't.
So the main two parties are so secure in their positions that they need to differentiate themselves, without alienating too many people. So they are rather vague on most things, then have a few strong issues, like abortion and guns, that aren't really major issues, they're secondary issues.

Totally agree on that. 100%.

Just a note to add to it. When any 3rd party candidate starts gaining any traction, the left and right always come together to squash any one that has even the slightest chance of competing. Suddenly it's "my friends across the isle."