Somewhere in between religion-free faith and atheism

[BDBoop]

I'm essentially a woman of faith who doesn't believe in an angry God of hate. I believe that the Bible was written by men who had some serious issues, which likely makes most view me as a heretic.

I believe it is up to believers of all faiths to reach out to others. This cannot be done if said believers are under the impression that theirs is the only true God, and everybody else is hell-bound.

I cannot believe that people who have never heard judeo-christian teachings, yet comport themselves in an honorable manner, are going to hell.

It IS the fact that I spent three decades in either a fundamental or grace-based church system that has me believing that the poor we will have with us always. The rich will not likely enter the Kingdom of Heaven. If you screw people over to attain your wealth, you cannot possibly be calling yourself a person of faith - and etc.

There is too much to contain in just one thread. I haven't examined other faiths overly much because God got me through too much for me to say he's not real. But I wholeheartedly reject religion, and the angry hateful fundamental belief system thereof.



This is how I believe things should be.

 

[theword]

I'm essentially a woman of faith who doesn't believe in an angry God of hate. I believe that the Bible was written by men who had some serious issues, which likely makes most view me as a heretic.

I believe it is up to believers of all faiths to reach out to others. This cannot be done if said believers are under the impression that theirs is the only true God, and everybody else is hell-bound.

I cannot believe that people who have never heard judeo-christian teachings, yet comport themselves in an honorable manner, are going to hell.

It IS the fact that I spent three decades in either a fundamental or grace-based church system that has me believing that the poor we will have with us always. The rich will not likely enter the Kingdom of Heaven. If you screw people over to attain your wealth, you cannot possibly be calling yourself a person of faith - and etc.

There is too much to contain in just one thread. I haven't examined other faiths overly much because God got me through too much for me to say he's not real. But I wholeheartedly reject religion, and the angry hateful fundamental belief system thereof.



This is how I believe things should be.

There's a reason the wealthy city of Rome loved the religious belief of hell. Hell was a way more powerful tool to make wealth than promoting a gospel by saints they didn't understand.

 

[wavingrl]

in another forum--- several months after my brother died--drugs, then cancer--the results of some form of family dysfunction--'rusty, crusty, old ideas'--I posted this.


The rustiest and crustiest member of my family --my mother's sister --is the most outspoken and 'controls' others. The heartache this has caused is severe. 'the best' --anyone can do---since there is litle to no hope that she will ever modify her beliefs --is listen and make an effort not to 'light the fuse'.

Must be the mission of my life--to determine and correct in myself-- 'ways of thinking' that are actually, imo--dangerous.



~~~~~~

I continue to try--in 1981 I became intrigued with the ideas of a minister.

'Others have called you servants, but I have called you Friend...' that was his benediction and he meant exactly what he said.

At times --the only thing I can truly understand is The Beatitudes.
I don't 'debate' religion.

I also have 'my own ideas' about how God 'judges'.

This is the way I try to think --whatever is being 'dumped' out.
~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~


I found this to be relevant to my life and welcome your observations.

Go Here>>
Daily Bible Study - Peter and Paul

'But were the apostles Peter and Paul "pals"? They loved each other as Christians, they were solidly together as Christians, but they were not close friends (although they both did seem to mellow, when comparing their earlier writings with their later writings). That will come later, when all of the human "baggage" has been left behind. Until then, Peter and Paul, from what is written in the Holy Scriptures, had a relationship that was often strained and tense.'

~~~
Many times I am Peter--LOL--what a life he must have led. Then at other times Paul.
That is certainly a type of love that is 'misunderstood' and yet that is exactly the type of love that is at issue at this time.

So many parents are advised to let children 'Go'--teenagers who have diverse problems.

My brother was such an individual and he died last year at 55. If I told you what my mother and I went through because we loved him and simply would not and could not condemn him it would break your heart or ignite moral outrage. Or possibly some people are now capable of such a cold and clinical type of love that they would say he made his choices and as we know the wages of sin or death.

I don't think I will ever reconcile 'the wages of sin are death' with Christ's concepts. In general how do you manage the paradoxical nature of religion?

Your thoughts?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[BDBoop]

in another forum--- several months after my brother died--drugs, then cancer--the results of some form of family dysfunction--'rusty, crusty, old ideas'--I posted this.


The rustiest and crustiest member of my family --my mother's sister --is the most outspoken and 'controls' others. The heartache this has caused is severe. 'the best' --anyone can do---since there is litle to no hope that she will ever modify her beliefs --is listen and make an effort not to 'light the fuse'.

Must be the mission of my life--to determine and correct in myself-- 'ways of thinking' that are actually, imo--dangerous.



~~~~~~

I continue to try--in 1981 I became intrigued with the ideas of a minister.

'Others have called you servants, but I have called you Friend...' that was his benediction and he meant exactly what he said.

At times --the only thing I can truly understand is The Beatitudes.
I don't 'debate' religion.

I also have 'my own ideas' about how God 'judges'.

This is the way I try to think --whatever is being 'dumped' out.
~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~


I found this to be relevant to my life and welcome your observations.

Go Here>>
Daily Bible Study - Peter and Paul

'But were the apostles Peter and Paul "pals"? They loved each other as Christians, they were solidly together as Christians, but they were not close friends (although they both did seem to mellow, when comparing their earlier writings with their later writings). That will come later, when all of the human "baggage" has been left behind. Until then, Peter and Paul, from what is written in the Holy Scriptures, had a relationship that was often strained and tense.'

~~~
Many times I am Peter--LOL--what a life he must have led. Then at other times Paul.
That is certainly a type of love that is 'misunderstood' and yet that is exactly the type of love that is at issue at this time.

So many parents are advised to let children 'Go'--teenagers who have diverse problems.

My brother was such an individual and he died last year at 55. If I told you what my mother and I went through because we loved him and simply would not and could not condemn him it would break your heart or ignite moral outrage. Or possibly some people are now capable of such a cold and clinical type of love that they would say he made his choices and as we know the wages of sin or death.

I don't think I will ever reconcile 'the wages of sin are death' with Christ's concepts. In general how do you manage the paradoxical nature of religion?

Your thoughts?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your aunt sounds very much like my mother.

I believe the Bible to have been written for all people for all time, therefore there will be paradoxes. There will be things that don't apply to us in the here and now. People say they don't believe that, but those are generally the same people who are willing to eat shellfish, wear two different cloths, not stone their non-virgins - yet believe gays are an abomination.

 

[wavingrl]

in another forum--- several months after my brother died--drugs, then cancer--the results of some form of family dysfunction--'rusty, crusty, old ideas'--I posted this.


quote]

Your aunt sounds very much like my mother.

I believe the Bible to have been written for all people for all time, therefore there will be paradoxes. There will be things that don't apply to us in the here and now. People say they don't believe that, but those are generally the same people who are willing to eat shellfish, wear two different cloths, not stone their non-virgins - yet believe gays are an abomination.

'do it for yourself'--that is a fundamental belief of the US and it comes straight from the Bible. On another 'page'--Christ chooses 'friends'---a model of how to live.

my aunt would tell you that she 'did it for herself'--she will not tell you that she did not do it 'alone'. either 'tell the whole truth' or don't waste my time.

generally, I think, at some level those who 'attempt to determine the worthiness of another' have some complex issues.

It is certainly true that no one can 'love' everyone else on earth--equally. 'Cathect' a few--M. Scott Peck--'The Road Less Traveled'--late 70's/early 80's.

~~~

paradoxes--I finally became more comfortable with that. Alpha and Omega--no mortal will ever get to that level.

it has always been C. S. Lewis for me--in times of the greatest darkness.
https://www.google.com/search?sourc...l4.0.0.1.112099...........0.w3K7TaAiRQ8&pbx=1

today--because I wanted to--I gave another woman with a toddler and a baby in her arms money. I gave the child a little pie I had just purchased. 'unemployed, homeless'--not for one minute did I doubt that.
people have really done more than they should do for me--many, many times. kind words, hugs, a lol and once I had been released from the hospital--ran out of gas late at night attempting to visit a 'friend'/who really never was much of one--I was crying and a person in a Walmart called the police and they thought I was 'insane'--my blood sugar goes out of control with too much stress. so I was released from the hospital--my car had been towed and my dog taken to animal control and a man beginning religious studies--gave me a ride, bought some gas and I made it home. whenever I can I do the same.

school of hard knocks --to understand so many things.

Attitude--that comes first. If over 90% of what you say is negative--that is a problem for me.
~~~
I happened to hear an oldie today-Buffalo Springfield--'Somethings Happening Here'--60s--probably. It is just not the same today--more always needs to be done in every area- sure.

Of course--confront the issues--but 'lift your head up' once in a while.

I just have to get myself back on track.
whatever anyone else believes--what was the absolute truth for my family is/was that a full or clear understanding of Christianity never really occurred and that was --after the Great Depression and 2 world wars so there was an explanation for that way of thinking.

Now--any way you want to 'do it'--you have choices. I am talking to 'myself' again.

The forgiving of oneself--12 step programs--Let it Go--throw what is no longer useful away. Keep what is good. Recognize the gifts and be thankful. I have to focus on that.

from time to time I ramble--I apologize.

 

[BDBoop]

in another forum--- several months after my brother died--drugs, then cancer--the results of some form of family dysfunction--'rusty, crusty, old ideas'--I posted this.


quote]

Your aunt sounds very much like my mother.

I believe the Bible to have been written for all people for all time, therefore there will be paradoxes. There will be things that don't apply to us in the here and now. People say they don't believe that, but those are generally the same people who are willing to eat shellfish, wear two different cloths, not stone their non-virgins - yet believe gays are an abomination.

'do it for yourself'--that is a fundamental belief of the US and it comes straight from the Bible. On another 'page'--Christ chooses 'friends'---a model of how to live.

my aunt would tell you that she 'did it for herself'--she will not tell you that she did not do it 'alone'. either 'tell the whole truth' or don't waste my time.

generally, I think, at some level those who 'attempt to determine the worthiness of another' have some complex issues.

It is certainly true that no one can 'love' everyone else on earth--equally. 'Cathect' a few--M. Scott Peck--'The Road Less Traveled'--late 70's/early 80's.

~~~

paradoxes--I finally became more comfortable with that. Alpha and Omega--no mortal will ever get to that level.

it has always been C. S. Lewis for me--in times of the greatest darkness.
https://www.google.com/search?sourc...l4.0.0.1.112099...........0.w3K7TaAiRQ8&pbx=1

today--because I wanted to--I gave another woman with a toddler and a baby in her arms money. I gave the child a little pie I had just purchased. 'unemployed, homeless'--not for one minute did I doubt that.
people have really done more than they should do for me--many, many times. kind words, hugs, a lol and once I had been released from the hospital--ran out of gas late at night attempting to visit a 'friend'/who really never was much of one--I was crying and a person in a Walmart called the police and they thought I was 'insane'--my blood sugar goes out of control with too much stress. so I was released from the hospital--my car had been towed and my dog taken to animal control and a man beginning religious studies--gave me a ride, bought some gas and I made it home. whenever I can I do the same.

school of hard knocks --to understand so many things.

Attitude--that comes first. If over 90% of what you say is negative--that is a problem for me.
~~~
I happened to hear an oldie today-Buffalo Springfield--'Somethings Happening Here'--60s--probably. It is just not the same today--more always needs to be done in every area- sure.

Of course--confront the issues--but 'lift your head up' once in a while.

I just have to get myself back on track.
whatever anyone else believes--what was the absolute truth for my family is/was that a full or clear understanding of Christianity never really occurred and that was --after the Great Depression and 2 world wars so there was an explanation for that way of thinking.

Now--any way you want to 'do it'--you have choices. I am talking to 'myself' again.

The forgiving of oneself--12 step programs--Let it Go--throw what is no longer useful away. Keep what is good. Recognize the gifts and be thankful. I have to focus on that.

from time to time I ramble--I apologize.

From time to time, I never shut up.

And as to the negativity - it drags people down. I don't pay a whole lot of mind to the people who only hope they can make someone as miserable as they are.

 

[Avatar4321]

Why would people of faith reach out to others if they didn't believe they needed to be reached out to? Say you dont believe in Christ, why would i reach out to you, if I thought you were going to be just fine without coming to Christ? I dont understand how you can say you can't reach out to others if you think they are hell bound. That's precisely why you would reach out to them. So you can help them avoid that outcome.

Maybe you mean something else and I just misunderstand you.

 

[BDBoop]

Not sure who you're talking to or what you're trying to say.

 

[BDBoop]

Why would people of faith reach out to others if they didn't believe they needed to be reached out to? Say you dont believe in Christ, why would i reach out to you, if I thought you were going to be just fine without coming to Christ? I dont understand how you can say you can't reach out to others if you think they are hell bound. That's precisely why you would reach out to them. So you can help them avoid that outcome.

Maybe you mean something else and I just misunderstand you.

Oh, now I get it. You think you would only reach out to someone to attempt to convert them.

 

[Hollie]

I'm essentially a woman of faith who doesn't believe in an angry God of hate. I believe that the Bible was written by men who had some serious issues, which likely makes most view me as a heretic.

I believe it is up to believers of all faiths to reach out to others. This cannot be done if said believers are under the impression that theirs is the only true God, and everybody else is hell-bound.

I cannot believe that people who have never heard judeo-christian teachings, yet comport themselves in an honorable manner, are going to hell.

Great comments!

I'm largely in agreement and will offer the following:

The only "condemning aspect" of my life is the Christian based idea (and I'm not a believer), that as an imperfect being I deserve Hell by default. I'm fairly honest, I work hard, I love my friends and family, etc.-- in short, I'm your average person who lives a quiet life dealing with life's challenges. I cannot imagine rating eternal torment because I don't acquiesce to the Christian defined salvation program. I ask myself:

"Which is more likely: That there's really this angry god out there who would actually behave that way, or it's really in the religion’s interest to establish a social dynamic where the threat of eternal torment is the outcome for not joining in that religion and btw supporting it financially. What's more likely, man needs a savior for being human, or the Church, an entity of sweeping power for more than a thousand years, needs to convince me I need them and only them?"

I think the answer is really obvious and simple. If such a thing is the reality (and of course there's no evidence for such) then I'll have to "account for my actions". But my worst "crime" in this realm is being imperfect and not believing that which I find is not supported. I can do nothing about such a god who would condemn me for such a trivial issue, nor can I do anything about the fact (my term) that after death it's nothing but a dreamless sleep. Both are equally depressing, hopeless, and bleak, and there's a marginal difference between condemning most people who ever existed to an eternity of despair versus everyone being condemned to an eternity of nothingness. It's hopeless because if such a god exists, there is no sense in morality, no true justice, and basically we are nothing but minions created to worship an infinite Ego or be consigned to everlasting torment.

 

[Moonglow]

The Bible was edited by the Romans to fit their empire. Who really knows what, whom or in which way Jesus intended for us to be religious.

 

[oldfart]

At times --the only thing I can truly understand is The Beatitudes.

I belong to a faith tradition that is non-Christian. I have always respected Christians who idea of their faith was to attempt to follow the Sermon on the Mount. The more they lose focus on how they treat other people, the more time they spend on the Heaven & Hell schtick, the less I think of them.

I don't think I will ever reconcile 'the wages of sin are death' with Christ's concepts. In general how do you manage the paradoxical nature of religion?

This is not the nature of religion, it is the nature of Abrahamic faiths. Concepts of original sin, need for redemption, salvation by faith alone, are all absent from most non-Abrahamic religions. We are not "broken" so we do not need to be fixed.

This also leads to a different ethics. Too often Christians believe that if they sincerely repent and are redeemed by grace, the evil that they have done is no longer an issue. But the evil they did is still there, and has a life of its own. They confuse "being forgiven" with no longer being responsible for their own behavior.

The key issue to me is that Abrahamic religions focus on a deity first and foremost. Anything that deity decrees, by definition is right, no matter how much suffering results. It is not what you do, but what you believe that matters.

The alternative faiths do not have deities with the attributes of the Christian God. They focus more on the question of how we treat other people and how a wise person would live their life. From that perspective, most of the "paradoxes" disappear. God no longer demands human sacrifice or "test" believers for His amusement. He does not order genocide or prescribe slavery or stoning for minor offenses.

In fact, for many including myself, such a god does not exist at all. It is just a bogeyman invented for social control. Absent such a god, we must find our own way, through observation, introspection, and reason; to a life governed by moderation, compassion, and humility.

 

[wavingrl]

I've been trying to think more clearly.

The manner in which the beliefs were handed down to you could have something to do with how you form your concept of religion. that is not exactly what I meant to say but i will keep trying.

I respond to calm voices and less emotion. I need to let those experiences control the others. Somewhere in all the experiences--if you sin make a mistake great or small, confront it/confess it and reflect in order not to repeat.

Way back -early in my life--I recall struggling with 'being good'--I remember thinking--it would be easier to be a Catholic because they could go to confession and then do penance and that was it. Really worrying about sin and lack of goodness is just not God's way.

lol--Protestants can do that too--and they can talk to God directly. I learned that much.

All the things that are said about Jesus Christ. Yes, the Beatitudes--those are his core beliefs. He wouldn't have said--'Be merciful'--if He didn't believe it and practice it.

If I started to really analyze everything about Christianity--it would be too difficult.

It helps me to think of God as Abba--daddy--I think that is right. Whatever you have done--just tell Him and He will give some advice. Knowing men/women who have absorbed the concepts well enough to model that --makes life much easier--it seems to me.

For myself--I just need to make faith/religion as simple as possible. Rereading the parables might be a good way to do this.

 

[oldfart]

"Which is more likely: That there's really this angry god out there who would actually behave that way, or it's really in the religion’s interest to establish a social dynamic where the threat of eternal torment is the outcome for not joining in that religion and btw supporting it financially. What's more likely, man needs a savior for being human, or the Church, an entity of sweeping power for more than a thousand years, needs to convince me I need them and only them?"

....I can do nothing about such a god who would condemn me for such a trivial issue, nor can I do anything about the fact (my term) that after death it's nothing but a dreamless sleep. Both are equally depressing, hopeless, and bleak, and there's a marginal difference between condemning most people who ever existed to an eternity of despair versus everyone being condemned to an eternity of nothingness. It's hopeless because if such a god exists, there is no sense in morality, no true justice, and basically we are nothing but minions created to worship an infinite Ego or be consigned to everlasting torment.

Think of it this way: There are a thousand competing sects telling you that if you believe in their god, you will spend the afterlife in paradise, otherwise you will spend it in torment. At most only one of them can be correct and there is no ready way to choose among them. Is the cosmos one giant random lottery? Does that sound like the result of a deity who was powerful and compassionate?

So I reject all personified deities, those who have favorites, love, hate, become angry, who demand things of us and can be bribed, cajoled, and flattered.

As for an afterlife, I do not believe in one. But if one exists, can it operate on any set of principles other than those which a wise person would choose to guide their behavior in this life? Is there anything you would do because a deity and afterlife existed that you would not do because it is the wise way to live your life?

The Heaven and Hell scenario is an obvious way to control people. It also plays on our sense of injustice. We want some Cosmic Hitman in the Sky to avenge us, either in this life or the next; to reward the righteous like ourselves and smite those who have done evil to us, to balance the books of account for the whole universe. But generally people do the right thing, and while actions have good or evil results (from motives that may not match up with the results!) it is a mistake to categorize anyone as wholly good or bad.

So we have a choice. We can buy into the judgmental view of life, fear that judgment, and delude ourselves that we have found the right ritual invocation to save us. Or we can reject that approach, have faith that a life well lived is reward enough, and look to how we treat others with eyes unclouded by apocalyptic visions.

I have made my choices and they feel right to me. No one else can make your decision for you. You must decide if promises of reward are credible and if you want to live your life dominated by guilt and fear. Rather than contemplating the Emptiness of Outer Darkness, I prefer to focus on how I am living my life and treating other people.

Peace all, Jamie

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I'm essentially a woman of faith who doesn't believe in an angry God of hate. I believe that the Bible was written by men who had some serious issues, which likely makes most view me as a heretic.

I believe it is up to believers of all faiths to reach out to others. This cannot be done if said believers are under the impression that theirs is the only true God, and everybody else is hell-bound.

I cannot believe that people who have never heard judeo-christian teachings, yet comport themselves in an honorable manner, are going to hell.

It IS the fact that I spent three decades in either a fundamental or grace-based church system that has me believing that the poor we will have with us always. The rich will not likely enter the Kingdom of Heaven. If you screw people over to attain your wealth, you cannot possibly be calling yourself a person of faith - and etc.

There is too much to contain in just one thread. I haven't examined other faiths overly much because God got me through too much for me to say he's not real. But I wholeheartedly reject religion, and the angry hateful fundamental belief system thereof.



This is how I believe things should be.

Or those who have heard Judeo-Christian teachings and reject them in good faith, and comport themselves in an honorable manner as well.

 

[Chuckt]

The Bible was edited by the Romans to fit their empire. Who really knows what, whom or in which way Jesus intended for us to be religious.

There were four manuscript families that went off into all the world or four different geographic locations that no one group or person controlled. So, no. The Romans didn't edit it because the manuscript families can be compared against the others for changes. Your claim has no evidence.

 

[Avatar4321]

Why would people of faith reach out to others if they didn't believe they needed to be reached out to? Say you dont believe in Christ, why would i reach out to you, if I thought you were going to be just fine without coming to Christ? I dont understand how you can say you can't reach out to others if you think they are hell bound. That's precisely why you would reach out to them. So you can help them avoid that outcome.

Maybe you mean something else and I just misunderstand you.

Oh, now I get it. You think you would only reach out to someone to attempt to convert them.

Maybe not the only reason. But If you are concerned about someones eternal life, I could see that as much more motivating than thinking everyone is alright.

 

[Avatar4321]

The Bible was edited by the Romans to fit their empire. Who really knows what, whom or in which way Jesus intended for us to be religious.

Those who ask Him know.