Somne Of You Right Siders Explain This To Me............

[kaz]

Katz said:

"That means that the poor are paying the highest tax rates now because they spend the highest portion of their income. The most economically efficient tax therefore is to eliminate all taxes and only charge a national sales tax."

The first sentence implies that you believe the poor are paying an unjustly high percentage of their incomes in taxation of all kinds. I agree; but in your second sentence, you appear to support that structure and want to make it official tax policy, correct? This seems immoral.

The inherent implication of the first part of my statement is that it's impossible to NOT have the poor pay the highest rates. However, logically there are three ways to correct it.

1) A good solution is the Fair Tax solution, in which there is a "pre-bate" where you get a check each month for your taxes below a certain income limit, like the poverty line. So if you make less then that, you pay no taxes and actually could make money.

2) A better solution would be that you just pay the sales tax and if you're poor and you apply for welfare, the sales tax would be considered in the calculation.

3) The best solution would be private charity where sales taxes are paid with your help.

BTW, keep in mind that prices would not go up, and would in fact drop. They would not go up because the taxes are already included in the price of products, the sales tax replaces those taxes, it's not in addition to them. And the reason prices would start to go down is all the cost of collecting those taxes, tax accountants and lawyers ... going away. And that would accelerate as the inefficient economic decisions driven by taxes goes away.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

.....................if all this low tax shit is so good...what the phuck happened to the wages of the lowest three fourths of American workers. Their wages have stagnated but after adjusting for taxes and cost of living they're worse off than they were in the 70's. You people don't give a shit as long as your fairy tale is alive and a group of peons go to fight your goddam "boots on the ground" interventions in someone else's country. This insanity has to stop.

Are you fucking high or something? You're all over the map and making no motherfucking sense whatsoever.

 

[kaz]

Give me a break, Kaz. You accuse me of being "factually challenged," but it sounds like you agree with my assertion that you believe most people should pay more taxes to even the "burden" (with regard to federal income taxes only, of course). Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing something. You're correct in the part that I think everyone should pay some taxes, but you're wrong about the "evening the burden" part. The poor would pay very little tax in my system. My point, which I stated pretty clearly, was that they would feel something when they raise taxes and increase spending and now they feel nothing.

Gotcha.

But you know as well as I do that the poor pay a LOT of taxes; they simply aren't covered by the discussion of Federal Income Taxes, which the media (and the professional politicians) pretend to be the only tax that matters.

Yes, but raising taxes on the rich doesn't change that. Let's say you have two employees, one is worth $20K a year and pays no taxes. The other is worth double and pays a 50% rate. So what does the company pay the more valuable employee? The answer is $80K. They pay 4 times the rate using my numbers so they take home twice as much. I just used those numbers to make the math easy, but that is how all taxes work. They are worth double, they aren't going to just give the money to the government. I didn't go to college and get two masters degrees so I could pay more taxes, I did so I could take home more.

The $80K is built into the price of the company's product. Which means it's paid by ... consumers ...

 

[asterism]

.....................if all this low tax shit is so good...what the phuck happened to the wages of the lowest three fourths of American workers. Their wages have stagnated but after adjusting for taxes and cost of living they're worse off than they were in the 70's. You people don't give a shit as long as your fairy tale is alive and a group of peons go to fight your goddam "boots on the ground" interventions in someone else's country. This insanity has to stop.

Your charts do not show a decline in wages after taxes.

Your argument is bogus.

 

[Freemason9]

Yes, you are missing something. You're correct in the part that I think everyone should pay some taxes, but you're wrong about the "evening the burden" part. The poor would pay very little tax in my system. My point, which I stated pretty clearly, was that they would feel something when they raise taxes and increase spending and now they feel nothing.

Gotcha.

But you know as well as I do that the poor pay a LOT of taxes; they simply aren't covered by the discussion of Federal Income Taxes, which the media (and the professional politicians) pretend to be the only tax that matters.

Yes, but raising taxes on the rich doesn't change that. Let's say you have two employees, one is worth $20K a year and pays no taxes. The other is worth double and pays a 50% rate. So what does the company pay the more valuable employee? The answer is $80K. They pay 4 times the rate using my numbers so they take home twice as much. I just used those numbers to make the math easy, but that is how all taxes work. They are worth double, they aren't going to just give the money to the government. I didn't go to college and get two masters degrees so I could pay more taxes, I did so I could take home more.

The $80K is built into the price of the company's product. Which means it's paid by ... consumers ...

I see where you are going with this. I might agree if this "national sales tax" replaced ALL taxes, including FICA, etc. Otherwise, it simply transfers even more to the tax burden among working Americans.

 

[g5000]

The middle is absolutely undertaxed, considering their rapidly increasing DIRECT redistributive consumption of the Federal tax dollar.:

To understand this, you need to realize that:

Defense spending was the majority of the Federal budget in the 40's.

Defense spending was about 70% of our Federal budget in the 50's.

Defense spending ranged between 50-60% of our Federal budget in the 60-70's.

Defense spending was about 30-40% of our Federal budget in the 80-90's.

Defense spending is about 20% of our Federal budget today.

The #1 item in the Federal budget today is now WELFARE.

No. The number one item in the Federal budget today is still Defense, followed by Health Care, followed by Pensions, and then Welfare: Government Spending Details: Federal State Local for 2011 - Charts


.

 

[SniperFire]

The middle is absolutely undertaxed, considering their rapidly increasing DIRECT redistributive consumption of the Federal tax dollar.:

To understand this, you need to realize that:

Defense spending was the majority of the Federal budget in the 40's.

Defense spending was about 70% of our Federal budget in the 50's.

Defense spending ranged between 50-60% of our Federal budget in the 60-70's.

Defense spending was about 30-40% of our Federal budget in the 80-90's.

Defense spending is about 20% of our Federal budget today.

The #1 item in the Federal budget today is now WELFARE.

No. The number one item in the Federal budget today is still Defense, followed by Health Care, followed by Pensions, and then Welfare: Government Spending Details: Federal State Local for 2011 - Charts


.

'The government spent approximately $1.03 trillion on 83 means-tested federal welfare programs in fiscal year 2011 alone — a price tag that makes welfare that year the government’s largest expenditure, according to new data released by the Republican side of the Senate Budget Committee.

The total sum taxpayers spent on federal welfare programs was derived from a new Congressional Research Service (CRS) report on federal welfare spending — which topped out at $745.84 billion for fiscal year 2011 — combined with an analysis from the Republican Senate Budget Committee staff of state spending on federal welfare programs (based on “The Oxford Handbook of State and Local Government Finance&#8221, which reached $282.7 billion in fiscal year 2011.

The data excludes spending on Social Security, Medicare, means-tested health care for veterans without service-connected disabilities, and the means-tested veterans pension program.

According to the CRS report, which focused solely on federal spending for federal welfare programs, spending on federal welfare programs increased $563.413 billion in fiscal year 2008 to $745.84 billion in fiscal year 2011 — a 32 percent increase.'

Govt spent $1.028 trillion on welfare in FY 2011 | The Daily Caller

 

[squeeze berry]

.....................if all this low tax shit is so good...what the phuck happened to the wages of the lowest three fourths of American workers. Their wages have stagnated but after adjusting for taxes and cost of living they're worse off than they were in the 70's. You people don't give a shit as long as your fairy tale is alive and a group of peons go to fight your goddam "boots on the ground" interventions in someone else's country. This insanity has to stop.

Republicans love cheap labor

Democrats love collecting welfare

 

[Cammmpbell]

I think the senile old fart has - yet again - forgotten that he needs to link to his crap.

If you don't know how to find everything I post you're too goddammed ignorant to be on the Internet. I can find 25 things just like it in a few seconds.

 

[Amazed]

I think the senile old fart has - yet again - forgotten that he needs to link to his crap.

If you don't know how to find everything I post you're too goddammed ignorant to be on the Internet. I can find 25 things just like it in a few seconds.

If you are too lazy to source your shit you are irrelevant.

 

[uscitizen]

During the Bush admin they always talked of the average income not the average wage...

Just the wall street bonuses alone would skew the figures for the entire country on avg income.

 

[SuMar]

You are the babbling fool. You go to the polls and vote for millionaires and corporations while you more than likely make less than $100K yourself. In other words.....vote for the bible thumpers and aganst your own interests. Just like the Joe the Plumber guy who cleaned out septic tanks but dreamed of getting his boss's job.

More weak minded class-warfare whining.

You lead with 'facts', and now won't bother to defend them.

The material well-being of the poor/working classes has improved 50% since 1980.

Is that a growth in their 'income' or not?

Well goddamit you just don't get it. 50% my ass...that was before the union busting, funneling of borrowed money to the top by Reagan and the Bushes. Manufacturing jobs are at an all time low. The mortgage industry has bottomed. We import twice as much as we export, Banks and Wall St. are playing games with the money. Over 500 companies make money off of sick people and we still rank 37th in the world for general health and longevity. It won't be long till what used to be the middle class of this country will work 80 hours a week and no benefits for about the same on a global scale as a day laborer in Maylasia.....which is exactly what the Republican party has been shooting for:

There isn't enough union busting now..Here are 5 reasons Unions are bad for our economy. Link will be provided below..

1) Unions are severely damaging whole industries: How is it that GM and Chrysler got into such lousy shape that they had to be bailed out? There's a simple answer: The unions. The massive pensions the car companies paid out raised their costs so much that they were limited to building more expensive cars to try to get their money back . They couldn't even do a great job of building those cars because utterly ridiculous union rules prevented them from using their labor efficiently. America created the automobile industry, but American unions are strangling it to death. Unions also wrecked the steel and textile industries and have helped drive manufacturing jobs overseas. They're crippling the airline industry and, of course, we can't forget that...

2) Unions are ruining public education: Every few years, it's the same old story. The teachers’ unions claim that public education in this country is dramatically underfunded and if they just had more money, they could turn it around. Taxpayer money then pours into our schools like a waterfall and....there's no improvement. A few years later, when people have forgotten the last spending spree on education, the process is repeated.

However, the real problem with our education system in this country is the teachers’ unions. They do everything possible to prevent schools not only from firing lousy teachers, but also from rewarding talented teachers. Merit pay? The unions hate it. Private schools? Even though everyone knows they deliver a better education than our public schools, unions fight to keep as many kids as possible locked in failing public schools. In Wisconsin, we've had whole schools shutting down so that lazy teachers can waste their time protesting on the taxpayers’ dime. Want to improve education in this country? Then you've got to take on the teachers’ unions.

3) Unions are costing you billions of tax dollars: Let's put it plain and simple: Government workers shouldn't be allowed to unionize. Period.

Why?

Because you elect representatives to look out for your interests.

It's obviously in your interest to pay as little as possible to government workers, to keep their benefits as low as possible, and to hire as few of them as possible to do the job. However, because the Democratic Party and the unions are in bed with each other, this entire process has been turned on its ear. Instead of looking out for your interests, Democrats try to hire as many government workers as possible, pay them as much as possible, and give them benefits that are as generous as possible, all so that union workers will do more to get them re-elected.

In other words, the Democratic Party and the unions are engaged in an open conspiracy to defraud the American taxpayer. There's no way that the American people should allow that to continue.

4) Unions are fundamentally anti-democratic : How in the world did we get to the point where people can be forced to join a union just to get a job at certain places? Then, after they're dragooned into the union, they have no choice other than to pay dues that are used for political activities which the unwilling dues-paying member may oppose.

Add to that the fact that the Democrats and the government unions collaborate to subvert democracy at the expense of the taxpayer and it's not a pretty picture. Worse yet, unions have gotten so voracious that they even want to do away with the secret ballot, via card check, so they can openly bully people into joining unions. The way unions behave in this country is undemocratic, un-American, and it should trouble anyone who cares about freedom and individual rights.

5) Government unions are bankrupting cities and states: Government unions have bled billions from taxpayers nationally, but the damage they're doing on the local level is even worse. We have cities and states all across the country that are so behind on their bills that there have been genuine discussions about bankruptcy. There are a lot of irresponsible financial policies that have helped contribute to that sorry state-of-affairs, but unquestionably, the biggest back-breakers can be directly traced back to the unions.

5 Reasons Unions Are Bad For America - John Hawkins - [page]​

 

[WillowTree]

You wanna know what happened to the middle class and the working class of America. Illegal immigration. Which your chosen messiah favors. so stfu about what happened to the working class.

 

[Cammmpbell]

More weak minded class-warfare whining.

You lead with 'facts', and now won't bother to defend them.

The material well-being of the poor/working classes has improved 50% since 1980.

Is that a growth in their 'income' or not?

Well goddamit you just don't get it. 50% my ass...that was before the union busting, funneling of borrowed money to the top by Reagan and the Bushes. Manufacturing jobs are at an all time low. The mortgage industry has bottomed. We import twice as much as we export, Banks and Wall St. are playing games with the money. Over 500 companies make money off of sick people and we still rank 37th in the world for general health and longevity. It won't be long till what used to be the middle class of this country will work 80 hours a week and no benefits for about the same on a global scale as a day laborer in Maylasia.....which is exactly what the Republican party has been shooting for:

There isn't enough union busting now..Here are 5 reasons Unions are bad for our economy. Link will be provided below..

1) Unions are severely damaging whole industries: How is it that GM and Chrysler got into such lousy shape that they had to be bailed out? There's a simple answer: The unions. The massive pensions the car companies paid out raised their costs so much that they were limited to building more expensive cars to try to get their money back . They couldn't even do a great job of building those cars because utterly ridiculous union rules prevented them from using their labor efficiently. America created the automobile industry, but American unions are strangling it to death. Unions also wrecked the steel and textile industries and have helped drive manufacturing jobs overseas. They're crippling the airline industry and, of course, we can't forget that...

2) Unions are ruining public education: Every few years, it's the same old story. The teachers’ unions claim that public education in this country is dramatically underfunded and if they just had more money, they could turn it around. Taxpayer money then pours into our schools like a waterfall and....there's no improvement. A few years later, when people have forgotten the last spending spree on education, the process is repeated.

However, the real problem with our education system in this country is the teachers’ unions. They do everything possible to prevent schools not only from firing lousy teachers, but also from rewarding talented teachers. Merit pay? The unions hate it. Private schools? Even though everyone knows they deliver a better education than our public schools, unions fight to keep as many kids as possible locked in failing public schools. In Wisconsin, we've had whole schools shutting down so that lazy teachers can waste their time protesting on the taxpayers’ dime. Want to improve education in this country? Then you've got to take on the teachers’ unions.

3) Unions are costing you billions of tax dollars: Let's put it plain and simple: Government workers shouldn't be allowed to unionize. Period.

Why?

Because you elect representatives to look out for your interests.

It's obviously in your interest to pay as little as possible to government workers, to keep their benefits as low as possible, and to hire as few of them as possible to do the job. However, because the Democratic Party and the unions are in bed with each other, this entire process has been turned on its ear. Instead of looking out for your interests, Democrats try to hire as many government workers as possible, pay them as much as possible, and give them benefits that are as generous as possible, all so that union workers will do more to get them re-elected.

In other words, the Democratic Party and the unions are engaged in an open conspiracy to defraud the American taxpayer. There's no way that the American people should allow that to continue.

4) Unions are fundamentally anti-democratic : How in the world did we get to the point where people can be forced to join a union just to get a job at certain places? Then, after they're dragooned into the union, they have no choice other than to pay dues that are used for political activities which the unwilling dues-paying member may oppose.

Add to that the fact that the Democrats and the government unions collaborate to subvert democracy at the expense of the taxpayer and it's not a pretty picture. Worse yet, unions have gotten so voracious that they even want to do away with the secret ballot, via card check, so they can openly bully people into joining unions. The way unions behave in this country is undemocratic, un-American, and it should trouble anyone who cares about freedom and individual rights.

5) Government unions are bankrupting cities and states: Government unions have bled billions from taxpayers nationally, but the damage they're doing on the local level is even worse. We have cities and states all across the country that are so behind on their bills that there have been genuine discussions about bankruptcy. There are a lot of irresponsible financial policies that have helped contribute to that sorry state-of-affairs, but unquestionably, the biggest back-breakers can be directly traced back to the unions.

5 Reasons Unions Are Bad For America - John Hawkins - [page]​

Republican horse shit. All the benefits the middle class received after the 1950's were gained because of unions. I was a member of local 9-288 myself. Oil, Chemical and Atomic Workers(OCAW)

The Republicans want to take their inheirited money, shuffle a few papers, kiss a few of their buddies asses and end up a millionaire. A carpenter or construction worker has to work till he can no longer do the work and then fuckin die.

When Romney told the kids at a college to start a business...."even if they had to borrow the money from their parents" that should be framed and publicized as the truest Republican statement ever made. "Borrow From Parents!" ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

 

[SuMar]

Well goddamit you just don't get it. 50% my ass...that was before the union busting, funneling of borrowed money to the top by Reagan and the Bushes. Manufacturing jobs are at an all time low. The mortgage industry has bottomed. We import twice as much as we export, Banks and Wall St. are playing games with the money. Over 500 companies make money off of sick people and we still rank 37th in the world for general health and longevity. It won't be long till what used to be the middle class of this country will work 80 hours a week and no benefits for about the same on a global scale as a day laborer in Maylasia.....which is exactly what the Republican party has been shooting for:

There isn't enough union busting now..Here are 5 reasons Unions are bad for our economy. Link will be provided below..

1) Unions are severely damaging whole industries: How is it that GM and Chrysler got into such lousy shape that they had to be bailed out? There's a simple answer: The unions. The massive pensions the car companies paid out raised their costs so much that they were limited to building more expensive cars to try to get their money back . They couldn't even do a great job of building those cars because utterly ridiculous union rules prevented them from using their labor efficiently. America created the automobile industry, but American unions are strangling it to death. Unions also wrecked the steel and textile industries and have helped drive manufacturing jobs overseas. They're crippling the airline industry and, of course, we can't forget that...

2) Unions are ruining public education: Every few years, it's the same old story. The teachers’ unions claim that public education in this country is dramatically underfunded and if they just had more money, they could turn it around. Taxpayer money then pours into our schools like a waterfall and....there's no improvement. A few years later, when people have forgotten the last spending spree on education, the process is repeated.

However, the real problem with our education system in this country is the teachers’ unions. They do everything possible to prevent schools not only from firing lousy teachers, but also from rewarding talented teachers. Merit pay? The unions hate it. Private schools? Even though everyone knows they deliver a better education than our public schools, unions fight to keep as many kids as possible locked in failing public schools. In Wisconsin, we've had whole schools shutting down so that lazy teachers can waste their time protesting on the taxpayers’ dime. Want to improve education in this country? Then you've got to take on the teachers’ unions.

3) Unions are costing you billions of tax dollars: Let's put it plain and simple: Government workers shouldn't be allowed to unionize. Period.

Why?

Because you elect representatives to look out for your interests.

It's obviously in your interest to pay as little as possible to government workers, to keep their benefits as low as possible, and to hire as few of them as possible to do the job. However, because the Democratic Party and the unions are in bed with each other, this entire process has been turned on its ear. Instead of looking out for your interests, Democrats try to hire as many government workers as possible, pay them as much as possible, and give them benefits that are as generous as possible, all so that union workers will do more to get them re-elected.

In other words, the Democratic Party and the unions are engaged in an open conspiracy to defraud the American taxpayer. There's no way that the American people should allow that to continue.

4) Unions are fundamentally anti-democratic : How in the world did we get to the point where people can be forced to join a union just to get a job at certain places? Then, after they're dragooned into the union, they have no choice other than to pay dues that are used for political activities which the unwilling dues-paying member may oppose.

Add to that the fact that the Democrats and the government unions collaborate to subvert democracy at the expense of the taxpayer and it's not a pretty picture. Worse yet, unions have gotten so voracious that they even want to do away with the secret ballot, via card check, so they can openly bully people into joining unions. The way unions behave in this country is undemocratic, un-American, and it should trouble anyone who cares about freedom and individual rights.

5) Government unions are bankrupting cities and states: Government unions have bled billions from taxpayers nationally, but the damage they're doing on the local level is even worse. We have cities and states all across the country that are so behind on their bills that there have been genuine discussions about bankruptcy. There are a lot of irresponsible financial policies that have helped contribute to that sorry state-of-affairs, but unquestionably, the biggest back-breakers can be directly traced back to the unions.

5 Reasons Unions Are Bad For America - John Hawkins - [page]​

Republican horse shit. All the benefits the middle class received after the 1950's were gained because of unions. I was a member of local 9-288 myself. Oil, Chemical and Atomic Workers(OCAW)

The Republicans want to take their inheirited money, shuffle a few papers, kiss a few of their buddies asses and end up a millionaire. A carpenter or construction worker has to work till he can no longer do the work and then fuckin die.

When Romney told the kids at a college to start a business...."even if they had to borrow the money from their parents" that should be framed and publicized as the truest Republican statement ever made. "Borrow From Parents!" ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

And when union workers don't get what they want, they use bullying and intimidation tactics..

How Anti-American is that?

[ame=http://youtu.be/z5CkDnU-fXo]Union Boss Violence and Intimidation - YouTube[/ame]​

 

[Political Junky]

.....................if all this low tax shit is so good...what the phuck happened to the wages of the lowest three fourths of American workers. Their wages have stagnated but after adjusting for taxes and cost of living they're worse off than they were in the 70's. You people don't give a shit as long as your fairy tale is alive and a group of peons go to fight your goddam "boots on the ground" interventions in someone else's country. This insanity has to stop.

Republicans love cheap labor

That's what they're all about.

 

[kaz]

Gotcha.

But you know as well as I do that the poor pay a LOT of taxes; they simply aren't covered by the discussion of Federal Income Taxes, which the media (and the professional politicians) pretend to be the only tax that matters.

Yes, but raising taxes on the rich doesn't change that. Let's say you have two employees, one is worth $20K a year and pays no taxes. The other is worth double and pays a 50% rate. So what does the company pay the more valuable employee? The answer is $80K. They pay 4 times the rate using my numbers so they take home twice as much. I just used those numbers to make the math easy, but that is how all taxes work. They are worth double, they aren't going to just give the money to the government. I didn't go to college and get two masters degrees so I could pay more taxes, I did so I could take home more.

The $80K is built into the price of the company's product. Which means it's paid by ... consumers ...

I see where you are going with this. I might agree if this "national sales tax" replaced ALL taxes, including FICA, etc. Otherwise, it simply transfers even more to the tax burden among working Americans.

Yes, that is the proposal. We eliminate all taxes including FICA, etc. Otherwise it is indeed just another tax. That's the imperative part of the proposal, that all the rest go and you just tax economic activity once, directly, instead of over and over indirectly.

 

[kaz]

You wanna know what happened to the middle class and the working class of America. Illegal immigration. Which your chosen messiah favors. so stfu about what happened to the working class.

The left have their cake and eat it too on that one, don't they Willow?

We have to pay Americans a minimum wage denying the low end workers employment, then we give the jobs they were denied to illegal Mexicans. Welfare would never work unless first the create a market for it...

 

[Chris]

.....................if all this low tax shit is so good...what the phuck happened to the wages of the lowest three fourths of American workers. Their wages have stagnated but after adjusting for taxes and cost of living they're worse off than they were in the 70's. You people don't give a shit as long as your fairy tale is alive and a group of peons go to fight your goddam "boots on the ground" interventions in someone else's country. This insanity has to stop.

Welfare for the wealthy.

The real redistribution of wealth in America.

And billionaires like Murdoch and Adelson are spending hundreds of millions of dollars to fool dumb rank and file Republicans to keep it that way.

 

[kaz]

Welfare for the wealthy.

The real redistribution of wealth in America

Yes, the top 1% pay 40% of Federal taxes, what's up with that Chris? Forty percent? That's it? What's up with that? Clearly it's welfare for the rich, Comrade.