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Ben-Gurion announced independence for the zionist regime in Palestine in 1948. He and his cronies were from an other continent entirely. I am not sure there is a better word than "stealing" here.
No, you characterize it as antisemitic because in that way you feel justified in not facing reality. If I stated anything antisemitic, you certainly would quote me.
I never claimed that. You pretend that part of self determination includes stealing land, and murder and the expulsion of the people who were there when the zionists arrived from another continent.When "reality" is that the Jewish people do not have the same rights as other peoples THAT is antisemitic.
I never claimed that.
Yes, as a researcher I was curious. Big deal, there is no 'legal' right as we found out. She exists because zionists came from another continent and claimed the land behind an army.Um. You started a thread questioning Israel's "legal right to exist" and then argued for pages that she did not hold such a right.
I never claimed that. You pretend that part of self determination includes stealing land, and murder and the expulsion of the people who were there when the zionists arrived from another continent.When "reality" is that the Jewish people do not have the same rights as other peoples THAT is antisemitic.
And the Palestinians have never had a chance at self determination since the zionist terrorists took control, but who cares about the people who were already there and their chance at self determination, right?
Yes, as a researcher I was curious. Big deal, there is no 'legal' right as we found out. She exists because zionists came from another continent and claimed the land behind an army.Um. You started a thread questioning Israel's "legal right to exist" and then argued for pages that she did not hold such a right.
Nobody has the right to thieve and murder. That is just known across the board, especially in these modern times with international law.
I never claimed that.
Um. You started a thread questioning Israel's "legal right to exist" and then argued for pages that she did not hold such a right.
But I'll ask you flat out. Yes or no question.
Do the Jewish people, like all other peoples, have the right to self-determination, sovereignty and political independence over at least part of her historical, indigenous territory?
Yes or no?
Nope, it is very important for you. That's why you prefer such wording.merriam-webster definition:Land is not a purse, it cannot be stolen.It is illegal for any country to retain land stolen through war!
But it can be...
You see, it I decide to take my neighbours land then that is... Stealing!
steal
to take and carry away (something that belongs to another person) without permission and with the intention of keeping
Can you carry away the land of your neighbors?
Anyway, find any appropriate international criminal case.
Hahaha, oh dear...
Well, I live in a country where land can be and has been stolen...
If you prefer illegal occupation then I don't mind!
And you comfortably ignored my request.
But it can be...
You see, it I decide to take my neighbours land then that is... Stealing!
The current conflict is an internal, civil conflict between two competing ethnic groups for possession of territory within a set of established international boundaries (short version: Syria to the north, Jordan to the east and Egypt to the south). There has never been a permanent, international, boundary within this territory dividing land that is under the sovereignty of Israel and land which is under the sovereignty of Palestine. ALL legal documents regarding the two-State solution (a solution you and I generally agree upon) demand that the final border between these two nations be negotiated between them. Therefore, neither side holds legal sovereignty (ownership) of the territory and neither can be stealing from the other. It is not possible to steal something whose ownership is in dispute.
Now, I THINK when you say that Israel is "stealing land" or "taking my neighbors land" you are using the Green Line as your basis for determining sovereignty (ownership) by each party. Therefore, you are claiming that any territory on the eastern side of the Green Line belongs to "Arab Palestine". This is a false premise. The Green Line is the 1949 Armistice Line between Israel and Jordan. Not Israel and Arab Palestine. Jordan. Why is there an Armistice Line between Israel and Jordan? Because Jordan crossed her international boundaries, using military force, and attempted to establish sovereignty over territory which was not hers. Remember that whole thing about it not being legal to steal land from other sovereigns through use of force or war? Oops.
Jordan, eventually, removed her military and government forces, abandoned that territory, renounced all claims to it and made a peace treaty with Israel. What does that do to an Armistice Line? It makes it disappear. There is no Green Line. It no longer exists for any purpose because the purpose was simply to pause the conflict between Israel and Jordan.
To claim that that land is now "Arab Palestine" is simply not correct. While the expectation is that the Green Line will serve as a basis for negotiations -- the Green Line itself represents nothing legal with respect to the internal, civil conflict between Israel and the Arab Palestinians who are seeking their own sovereignty. The solution to this internal conflict, as has been the solution to all such internal conflicts, is the division of territory and the establishment of borders through negotiation and treaty.
Therefore, to say that Israel is "stealing someone else's land" is legally false. It is not helpful because it paints the one side as "bad" and puts the onus on the one party to "correct its behaviour". It would be much more fair to claim that the territory is disputed. The only way to solve a dispute is to negotiate a solution between the parties. This makes BOTH parties responsible for the outcome, rather than only the demonized one.
Ben-Gurion announced independence for the zionist regime in Palestine in 1948. He and his cronies were from an other continent entirely. I am not sure there is a better word than "stealing" here.
Yes, but you are arguing a different point than Humanity is. He is arguing that BOTH Israel and Arab Palestine have the legal right to exist and that a border already exists between them and we know which territory belongs to whom.
You are arguing that the Jewish people can NEVER have a legal right to a State, political independence, or self-determination.
His argument is in error. Yours is antisemitic.
Israel stealing land is NOT legally false as you claim, under international law. That is an irrefutable fact, ....
Ben-Gurion announced independence for the zionist regime in Palestine in 1948. He and his cronies were from an other continent entirely. I am not sure there is a better word than "stealing" here.
Yes, but you are arguing a different point than Humanity is. He is arguing that BOTH Israel and Arab Palestine have the legal right to exist and that a border already exists between them and we know which territory belongs to whom.
You are arguing that the Jewish people can NEVER have a legal right to a State, political independence, or self-determination.
His argument is in error. Yours is antisemitic.
You are correct on one point Shusha, Israel as as much right to exist as Palestine has the same right.
However, I have never said that there already exists a border... At least, not in the eyes of Israel... My belief of a 'Greater Israel' will remain forever... It is the ONLY conclusion I can come to in the 'failings' of the Knesset to ever find a way to finding a solution for peace. In that, I do not believe it is in the interests of Israel to find anything like peace.
And, to finish up, on topic, I believe that Jerusalem should be and always be corpus separatum!
However, I have never said that there already exists a border..
On the contrary, it is in Israel's best interests to have peace with all her neighbors. The questions are:I do not believe it is in the interests of Israel to find anything like peace.
Why? What is the reason for it? Because there can be no peace if Israel is sovereign in her historical homeland there? Because the Arab Palestinians, the wider Arab world and Muslims have promised 'days of rage'? Why are we sacrificing the rights of the Jewish people in Israel to their historic city because the Arabs and the Muslims promise violence? Shouldn't we be doing the opposite? As an international community, shouldn't we be condemning violence? Shouldn't we be rejecting violence? Shouldn't we be loudly and clearly saying that those who use violence as a means to an end will not be rewarded for that violence?And, to finish up, on topic, I believe that Jerusalem should be and always be corpus separatum!
Jerusalem will never be corpus separatum. If it does become that, the entire history of the Jewish People will not have made any sense at all.
Another lie! Every day it seems you get called out on your lies and you pop back like it doesn't matter.Yes, but you are arguing a different point than Humanity is. He is arguing that BOTH Israel and Arab Palestine have the legal right to exist and that a border already exists between them and we know which territory belongs to whom.
Again?the Jewish people must not be denied their historical, indigenous rights to their historical monuments and landmarks and territory.
Another lie! Every day it seems you get called out on your lies and you pop back like it doesn't matter.Yes, but you are arguing a different point than Humanity is. He is arguing that BOTH Israel and Arab Palestine have the legal right to exist and that a border already exists between them and we know which territory belongs to whom.
To each their own. And when you stop mischaracterizing what people say - and when you stop arguing with these delusional fantasies of yours - you might be taken more seriously.
I have been studying the actual legal definition of self-determination. There is a lot there, but I can assure you at this early stage of my research, that no way does the right to self-determination allow for any group to steal land or murder those who stand in their way. No way, not now, not ever!
I have been studying the actual legal definition of self-determination.
