The electoral college is a disaster for democracy

[Pogo]

We need to get rid of it..

It doesn't matter to me.

A douchebag is going to get into the white house either way.

Clinton has won the popular vote by 2 million votes It is clear she should be the president. This country needs to elect it's leader by popular vote. The EC is antiquated and archiac.

Without the E.C. women would have never gotten womens rights, nor slaves.
Think about it: 5 men's vote to 4 women's vote , would mean women would never be represented.
Popular vote would always win.

Actually the opposite is true, and demonstrably so --- the EC worked to keep *both* women and slaves from their voting representation. That's already laid out clearly in this thread.

When it was first cobbled together the Southern slave states who fretted that they might get outvoted by the evil free states got that provision written into the Constitution that allowed them to count their slaves as three-fifths of a person for the calculation of their representation -- which meant more electoral votes -- yet of course those slaves had no vote of their own, and were in effect represented by their owners, whose interests we might imagine were somewhat at variance with that of their slaves.

And when slavery was finally done away with, the Thirteenth Amendment guaranteed that the rights of citizenship could not be denied to citizens including ex-slaves ---- as long as they were male (it says that specifically). So once again another constituency (women) were being counted for the purpose of representation --- which meant more electoral votes --- who once again had no vote for their own interests. A given state had no incentive to allow women to vote, since it would gain them nothing in terms of that representation --- they were already counted anyway.

The EC has always worked to exclude and divide somebody. Today it creates artificial bullshit categories of "red" and "blue" and "swing" states, none of which should exist, none of which would exist without the EC's "winner take all" action (which was, again, adopted to shore up slave state interests) and all of which serve to divide the country into a patchwork of abstract divisors which are completely unnecessary. And within a given state, as exercised it serves to exclude every voter who did not happen to vote the way the majority in their state did, nullifying their vote and, once again, allowing them no vote for their own interests.

It's a pattern that cannot possibly be ignored.

Agsin you fucking moron we would never ever had been the United states with out the EC..

Ah, the future conditional genuflecive subjunctory diminished participle combined with the ad hom of a nine-year-old.
Ya don't see that every day.

 

[Pogo]

Our Constitution and Bill of rights gives power to the people of this nation, not the Government.
Whenever a political ideaology that wants to get rid of the people's power ,to overthrow a harmful ideology, who wants to get rid of parts of that document or altogether is what just happened. A overthrow of cultural ideology.
We have new change in political ideology and it deserves to be seen how well or not well it works.
Then we the people can decide how WE want what programs work best or what needs to be gotten rid of.
The majority of this nation is totally fed up with the Political Correctness crowd who are so wrong in many things.
Their power has been taken away from them, because of the way our political election works based on our Constitution.

The majority of this nation voted for Hilary Clinton, not Donnie Trump.

By over 2.5 million too, in excess of the population of fifteen states. Or to be more contextual, two percent of the entire vote, or four times the level by which Al Gore outscored George W. Bush.

Fun fact: no POTUS has ever reached office with that much of a PV gap unless Congress had to get involved for lack of a resolution in the EC.

 

[Redfish]

so, you would turn our presidential elections over to 4 states? Because without the EC, Ca, Ny, Fl, and TX would decide who becomes president. The residents of the other 46 states would have no voice and their votes would be meaningless. How do you define that as democracy?

Actually we would turn our presidential elections over to 130 million voters ---- which would actually be a higher number, since turnout would go up because millions more would have a vote that actually counted for something --- a condition the EC now prevents in most states, including yours. The idea that populous states would "dictate" anything is just mathematically absurd, and recalls that same divisive nature of the EC, dividing us up into "red" and "blue" states. I don't see why you don't get that that concept would not exist. California voters did not vote unanimously for a Democrat and Texas voters did not vote unanimously for a Republican. That has never happened, ever, and never will. You know those 6-7 million votes Rump got in NY and CA? Whelp, they would actually COUNT instead of being tossed. And because they would count, more voters would have an avenue to go that way, instead of being told by the EC "don't bother".

STATES don't vote. Nor do counties, districts, parishes or arbitrary colors. PEOPLE vote.

Here's an idea, lets do it by counties. Trump won over 3000 counties, HRC won less than 60. How about by congressional districts? Trump wins. Actually the EC is the only way a dem candidate has a chance of winning and you idiots want to dump it.

Read that back aloud and try to make sense out of it.

how about if we apportion the EC votes in Ca, NY, TX, and FL? Guess who wins? Then lets apportion them in every state, guess who wins? answer: Hillary loses no matter how you cut it.

You are assuming that Cal voters would be 100% for the dem candidate.

Your obviously butthurt over the loss of your hildebeast has clouded your thinking. Usually you are able to make a cogent point on most issues, on this one all you have done is make a fool of yourself with your partisan bullshit and whining.

But since you hate the EC. Have you started a movement to get both houses of congress to do away with it and then get 38 states to ratify eliminating it? If not, then STFU and move on.

 

[Redfish]

so, you would turn our presidential elections over to 4 states? Because without the EC, Ca, Ny, Fl, and TX would decide who becomes president. The residents of the other 46 states would have no voice and their votes would be meaningless. How do you define that as democracy?

Actually we would turn our presidential elections over to 130 million voters ---- which would actually be a higher number, since turnout would go up because millions more would have a vote that actually counted for something --- a condition the EC now prevents in most states, including yours. The idea that populous states would "dictate" anything is just mathematically absurd, and recalls that same divisive nature of the EC, dividing us up into "red" and "blue" states. I don't see why you don't get that that concept would not exist. California voters did not vote unanimously for a Democrat and Texas voters did not vote unanimously for a Republican. That has never happened, ever, and never will. You know those 6-7 million votes Rump got in NY and CA? Whelp, they would actually COUNT instead of being tossed. And because they would count, more voters would have an avenue to go that way, instead of being told by the EC "don't bother".

STATES don't vote. Nor do counties, districts, parishes or arbitrary colors. PEOPLE vote.

Here's an idea, lets do it by counties. Trump won over 3000 counties, HRC won less than 60. How about by congressional districts? Trump wins. Actually the EC is the only way a dem candidate has a chance of winning and you idiots want to dump it.

Read that back aloud and try to make sense out of it.

Makes perfect sense if you understand it.

the defective liberal gene blocks rational thought.

 

[Redfish]

Our Constitution and Bill of rights gives power to the people of this nation, not the Government.
Whenever a political ideaology that wants to get rid of the people's power ,to overthrow a harmful ideology, who wants to get rid of parts of that document or altogether is what just happened. A overthrow of cultural ideology.
We have new change in political ideology and it deserves to be seen how well or not well it works.
Then we the people can decide how WE want what programs work best or what needs to be gotten rid of.
The majority of this nation is totally fed up with the Political Correctness crowd who are so wrong in many things.
Their power has been taken away from them, because of the way our political election works based on our Constitution.

The majority of this nation voted for Hilary Clinton, not Donnie Trump.

By over 2.5 million too, in excess of the population of fifteen states. Or to be more contextual, two percent of the entire vote, or four times the level by which Al Gore outscored George W. Bush.

Fun fact: no POTUS has ever reached office with that much of a PV gap unless Congress had to get involved for lack of a resolution in the EC.

interesting that you have those vote counts since the states don't yet have them. Are you psychic? or just stupid?

 

[Pogo]

how about if we apportion the EC votes in Ca, NY, TX, and FL? Guess who wins? Then lets apportion them in every state, guess who wins? answer: Hillary loses no matter how you cut it.

Irrelevant. I don't think that's been calculated and can't be until all the vote is counted, but somebody did it for 2012 and figured out that Romney wins in that model. Whatever. Not anywhere near the point.

Here's the square peg you keep trying to fit in the round hole --- I'm not concerned with "who wins" under this or that model. I'm concerned with how the process works. And I've been posting the same observations on that process since waaaaaaaaaaaaaay before this election, Goober.

You can't handle the concept on that level, so you try to change it into bite-sized fast food. Ain't gonna happen.

You are assuming that Cal voters would be 100% for the dem candidate.

Are you retarded? I've specifically pointed out, directly and repeatedly, that states do not vote unanimously, and that everybody in California who voted for Rump had their vote tossed by the way the EC works.

Are you just illiterate or what?

Your obviously butthurt over the loss of your hildebeast has clouded your thinking. Usually you are able to make a cogent point on most issues, on this one all you have done is make a fool of yourself with your partisan bullshit and whining.

Kind of makes my history of posting on this issue hard to explain then doesn't it.

Oopsie.

But since you hate the EC. Have you started a movement to get both houses of congress to do away with it and then get 38 states to ratify eliminating it? If not, then STFU and move on.

That's exactly what all this is Gummo. And I've also pointed out that Constitutional Amendment is not the only way to address its divisiveness.

It's instructive that you want it to "STFU" though. That's because you can't handle the argument.

 

[Freewill]

The EC allows the small states to have a say in the election. It also prevents a major voter fraud situation in ONE state from effecting the other 49 states and DC.

Such as this election. Trump won the popular vote in 50 of the popular votes. ONE state Hillary won put her over the top in the popular vote. I for one do not want ONE state deciding the president. Especially a state overrun with illegals whom are voting. Whether or not they are voting for my candidate.

There is also the fact that if it became a popularity contest of the combined states then the campaign methods would change. Candidate would then just target the big states and the little states would be left out.

Since the left wing claims to be for the "little guy" then why would they want the big states putting their heel on the smaller states? The EC makes everyone's vote worth more.

 

[Pop23]

Our Constitution and Bill of rights gives power to the people of this nation, not the Government.
Whenever a political ideaology that wants to get rid of the people's power ,to overthrow a harmful ideology, who wants to get rid of parts of that document or altogether is what just happened. A overthrow of cultural ideology.
We have new change in political ideology and it deserves to be seen how well or not well it works.
Then we the people can decide how WE want what programs work best or what needs to be gotten rid of.
The majority of this nation is totally fed up with the Political Correctness crowd who are so wrong in many things.
Their power has been taken away from them, because of the way our political election works based on our Constitution.

The majority of this nation voted for Hilary Clinton, not Donnie Trump.

By over 2.5 million too, in excess of the population of fifteen states. Or to be more contextual, two percent of the entire vote, or four times the level by which Al Gore outscored George W. Bush.

Fun fact: no POTUS has ever reached office with that much of a PV gap unless Congress had to get involved for lack of a resolution in the EC.

There is a system in place to amend the constitution.

Get going or shut the fuck up.

All this whining makes the Dems look like a bunch of little girls.

Good luck getting it changed, if you haven't noticed. YOU LOST EVERY WAY YOU COULD TO MAKE THE CHANGE ANYWHERE POSSIBLE TO DO SO.

Whining continues in 3......2.......1

 

[Pogo]

The EC allows the small states to have a say in the election.

Nope. It disallows "small" voters --- anyone who didn't vote with the majority in their state --- from having a voice at all. There is no state anywhere, including DC, where everyone votes unanimously. Does not exist. There's no way around that.

It also prevents a major voter fraud situation in ONE state from effecting the other 49 states and DC.

Wrong again. A "major voter fraud situation" if it exists, would be in no way limited to state lines. That's absurd.

Trump won the popular vote in 50 of the popular votes. ONE state Hillary won put her over the top in the popular vote.

Completely fabricated fiction. Actually he won the popular vote in 23 states, exactly two of which were among the thirteen "swing" states.

Not that that matters directly, as it's not how the election works.

I for one do not want ONE state deciding the president. Especially a state overrun with illegals whom are voting. Whether or not they are voting for my candidate.

Actually what you don't want is baseless myths floating around like "I don't like what the numbers say, therefore --- how many are we behind? two to three million? therefore three million 'illegals' voted but I have no evidence whatsoever". The real world doesn't work like that --- you don't get to just make it up.

There is also the fact that if it became a popularity contest of the combined states then the campaign methods would change. Candidate would then just target the big states and the little states would be left out.

Wrong yet again. What it would actually do is drive candies to places where they don't bother to go now because they either have "enough" to capure the EV, or they're too far behind to capture it. Which means Hillary would have a reason to go to Kansas. Rump with have a reason to go to Connecticut.

The EC makes everyone's vote worth more.

Actually it makes millions worthless. See point one. There's no way around that.

 

[peach174]

Our Constitution and Bill of rights gives power to the people of this nation, not the Government.
Whenever a political ideaology that wants to get rid of the people's power ,to overthrow a harmful ideology, who wants to get rid of parts of that document or altogether is what just happened. A overthrow of cultural ideology.
We have new change in political ideology and it deserves to be seen how well or not well it works.
Then we the people can decide how WE want what programs work best or what needs to be gotten rid of.
The majority of this nation is totally fed up with the Political Correctness crowd who are so wrong in many things.
Their power has been taken away from them, because of the way our political election works based on our Constitution.

The majority of this nation voted for Hilary Clinton, not Donnie Trump.

So what?
Our elected President wins by counties not popular vote.
You want it differently, then change the constitution and give away your citizan power.

 

[peach174]

Our Constitution and Bill of rights gives power to the people of this nation, not the Government.
Whenever a political ideaology that wants to get rid of the people's power ,to overthrow a harmful ideology, who wants to get rid of parts of that document or altogether is what just happened. A overthrow of cultural ideology.
We have new change in political ideology and it deserves to be seen how well or not well it works.
Then we the people can decide how WE want what programs work best or what needs to be gotten rid of.
The majority of this nation is totally fed up with the Political Correctness crowd who are so wrong in many things.
Their power has been taken away from them, because of the way our political election works based on our Constitution.

You can't "overthrow" cultural ideology. Cultural change happens at glacial speed; it is never subject to elections. Not even sure where you were going with this point but you can no more "overthrow" cultural ideology than you can take a hairpin curve with a barge.

We just did Pogo.

 

[Pogo]

There is a system in place to amend the constitution.

Get going or shut the fuck up.

Already have been "going", shit-fer-brains. I've been part of this thread from its inception and have laid all this down in many many other places, while you had your head buried in the sand. The fact that you just now woke up to it in now way marks a "beginning" of anything.

This thread has over six thousand views. Every one of those is an opportunity to lay out these points. That's where it starts. Again it's interesting you want this to just "shut the fuck up". On a discussion board of all places.

Good luck getting it changed, if you haven't noticed. YOU LOST EVERY WAY YOU COULD TO MAKE THE CHANGE ANYWHERE POSSIBLE TO DO SO.

Perhaps this sentence comes in English.
Perhaps not.

Whining continues in 3......2.......1

Then why don't *you* just shut the fuck up, since you have absolutely nothing to add on the issue?

 

[Pogo]

Our Constitution and Bill of rights gives power to the people of this nation, not the Government.
Whenever a political ideaology that wants to get rid of the people's power ,to overthrow a harmful ideology, who wants to get rid of parts of that document or altogether is what just happened. A overthrow of cultural ideology.
We have new change in political ideology and it deserves to be seen how well or not well it works.
Then we the people can decide how WE want what programs work best or what needs to be gotten rid of.
The majority of this nation is totally fed up with the Political Correctness crowd who are so wrong in many things.
Their power has been taken away from them, because of the way our political election works based on our Constitution.

You can't "overthrow" cultural ideology. Cultural change happens at glacial speed; it is never subject to elections. Not even sure where you were going with this point but you can no more "overthrow" cultural ideology than you can take a hairpin curve with a barge.

We just did Pogo.

No, we did not. Cultural values simply do not work that way. That's why for instance FGM still goes on. It's thousands of years old. Can't be changed overnight. Even cigarette smoking ---- it's less prevalent than it was 50 or 75 years ago ..... but it still goes on.

 

[peach174]

Our Constitution and Bill of rights gives power to the people of this nation, not the Government.
Whenever a political ideaology that wants to get rid of the people's power ,to overthrow a harmful ideology, who wants to get rid of parts of that document or altogether is what just happened. A overthrow of cultural ideology.
We have new change in political ideology and it deserves to be seen how well or not well it works.
Then we the people can decide how WE want what programs work best or what needs to be gotten rid of.
The majority of this nation is totally fed up with the Political Correctness crowd who are so wrong in many things.
Their power has been taken away from them, because of the way our political election works based on our Constitution.

You can't "overthrow" cultural ideology. Cultural change happens at glacial speed; it is never subject to elections. Not even sure where you were going with this point but you can no more "overthrow" cultural ideology than you can take a hairpin curve with a barge.

We just did Pogo.

No, we did not. Cultural values simply do not work that way. That's why for instance FGM still goes on. It's thousands of years old. Can't be changed overnight. Even cigarette smoking ---- it's less prevalent than it was 50 or 75 years ago ..... but it still goes on.

Pogo
Washington D.C. representation just went from the P.C. left ideology, to the conservative, moderate ideology and did it by winning overwhemely by counties with several blue counties turning red thanks to the E.C.
You want the American people to give up that power.

 

[Redfish]

how about if we apportion the EC votes in Ca, NY, TX, and FL? Guess who wins? Then lets apportion them in every state, guess who wins? answer: Hillary loses no matter how you cut it.

Irrelevant. I don't think that's been calculated and can't be until all the vote is counted, but somebody did it for 2012 and figured out that Romney wins in that model. Whatever. Not anywhere near the point.

Here's the square peg you keep trying to fit in the round hole --- I'm not concerned with "who wins" under this or that model. I'm concerned with how the process works. And I've been posting the same observations on that process since waaaaaaaaaaaaaay before this election, Goober.

You can't handle the concept on that level, so you try to change it into bite-sized fast food. Ain't gonna happen.

You are assuming that Cal voters would be 100% for the dem candidate.

Are you retarded? I've specifically pointed out, directly and repeatedly, that states do not vote unanimously, and that everybody in California who voted for Rump had their vote tossed by the way the EC works.

Are you just illiterate or what?

Your obviously butthurt over the loss of your hildebeast has clouded your thinking. Usually you are able to make a cogent point on most issues, on this one all you have done is make a fool of yourself with your partisan bullshit and whining.

Kind of makes my history of posting on this issue hard to explain then doesn't it.

Oopsie.

But since you hate the EC. Have you started a movement to get both houses of congress to do away with it and then get 38 states to ratify eliminating it? If not, then STFU and move on.

That's exactly what all this is Gummo. And I've also pointed out that Constitutional Amendment is not the only way to address its divisiveness.

It's instructive that you want it to "STFU" though. That's because you can't handle the argument.

have you written to your congressmen and senators about it? have you started a petition in your state? have you done anything constructive about something that you feel so strongly about? or are you all talk like your hero obozo the great?

I say STFU to anyone who rants and raves but does nothing, so I think it was an appropriate comment for you.

 

[Pogo]

Our Constitution and Bill of rights gives power to the people of this nation, not the Government.
Whenever a political ideaology that wants to get rid of the people's power ,to overthrow a harmful ideology, who wants to get rid of parts of that document or altogether is what just happened. A overthrow of cultural ideology.
We have new change in political ideology and it deserves to be seen how well or not well it works.
Then we the people can decide how WE want what programs work best or what needs to be gotten rid of.
The majority of this nation is totally fed up with the Political Correctness crowd who are so wrong in many things.
Their power has been taken away from them, because of the way our political election works based on our Constitution.

You can't "overthrow" cultural ideology. Cultural change happens at glacial speed; it is never subject to elections. Not even sure where you were going with this point but you can no more "overthrow" cultural ideology than you can take a hairpin curve with a barge.

We just did Pogo.

No, we did not. Cultural values simply do not work that way. That's why for instance FGM still goes on. It's thousands of years old. Can't be changed overnight. Even cigarette smoking ---- it's less prevalent than it was 50 or 75 years ago ..... but it still goes on.

Pogo
Washington D.C. representation just went from the P.C. left ideology, to the conservative, moderate ideology and did it by winning overwhemely by counties with several blue counties turning red thanks to the E.C.
You want the American people to give up that power.

NONE of that has anything to do with cultural values Peach.

That's even leaving aside the suggestion that somehow Donald Rump represents "conservatism", which is irrelevant but also absurd.

 

[peach174]

Our Constitution and Bill of rights gives power to the people of this nation, not the Government.
Whenever a political ideaology that wants to get rid of the people's power ,to overthrow a harmful ideology, who wants to get rid of parts of that document or altogether is what just happened. A overthrow of cultural ideology.
We have new change in political ideology and it deserves to be seen how well or not well it works.
Then we the people can decide how WE want what programs work best or what needs to be gotten rid of.
The majority of this nation is totally fed up with the Political Correctness crowd who are so wrong in many things.
Their power has been taken away from them, because of the way our political election works based on our Constitution.

You can't "overthrow" cultural ideology. Cultural change happens at glacial speed; it is never subject to elections. Not even sure where you were going with this point but you can no more "overthrow" cultural ideology than you can take a hairpin curve with a barge.

We just did Pogo.

No, we did not. Cultural values simply do not work that way. That's why for instance FGM still goes on. It's thousands of years old. Can't be changed overnight. Even cigarette smoking ---- it's less prevalent than it was 50 or 75 years ago ..... but it still goes on.

Pogo
Washington D.C. representation just went from the P.C. left ideology, to the conservative, moderate ideology and did it by winning overwhemely by counties with several blue counties turning red thanks to the E.C.
You want the American people to give up that power.

NONE of that has anything to do with cultural values Peach.

That's even leaving aside the suggestion that somehow Donald Rump represents "conservatism", which is irrelevant but also absurd.

Political ideology is cultural values Pogo.

 

[Pogo]

have you written to your congressmen and senators about it? have you started a petition in your state? have you done anything constructive about something that you feel so strongly about?

NONE of those, by definition, would show up here, would they Jockomo?

You don't have an argument here. Nothing in the world prevents me from expressing an analysis here, least of all a fascist who wants discussion "shut up" when he's not getting his way in it.

or are you all talk like your hero obozo the great?

Link to that simile?


Nope. Guess not.

I say STFU to anyone who rants and raves but does nothing, so I think it was an appropriate comment for you.

Because you can't handle the points.
I already noted that.

 

[federalist50]

We are a constitutional republic that elects representatives. An extent of that republicanism is that our EC elects the presidents. An amendment would have to change the process, and neither party wants such, despite what certain members of those parties may say.

The vast majority of the nitwits who are clamoring for a constitutional amendment to eliminate the electoral college have no idea how difficult that would be! It would require a 2/3 vote of approval of the Senate and ratification by 3/4 of the states! Does anyone seriously think that will ever happen?

 

[Pogo]

You can't "overthrow" cultural ideology. Cultural change happens at glacial speed; it is never subject to elections. Not even sure where you were going with this point but you can no more "overthrow" cultural ideology than you can take a hairpin curve with a barge.

We just did Pogo.

No, we did not. Cultural values simply do not work that way. That's why for instance FGM still goes on. It's thousands of years old. Can't be changed overnight. Even cigarette smoking ---- it's less prevalent than it was 50 or 75 years ago ..... but it still goes on.

Pogo
Washington D.C. representation just went from the P.C. left ideology, to the conservative, moderate ideology and did it by winning overwhemely by counties with several blue counties turning red thanks to the E.C.
You want the American people to give up that power.

NONE of that has anything to do with cultural values Peach.

That's even leaving aside the suggestion that somehow Donald Rump represents "conservatism", which is irrelevant but also absurd.

Political ideology is cultural values Pogo.

No it absolutely is not.

Cultural values is how you dress and how you talk and whether its 'appropriate' to do or say this or that. It's also whether you practice FGM or smoke. It's what you eat and how you like your music.. NONE of that has to do with political ideologies.