the fair tax would get rid of the IRS. the fair tax would boost savings. friends, we need a fair Tax

So you say, but the usual inability of anyone making an actual case beyond a sentence, doesn't sway anyone, I have already seen lies and overt bias against it right here in the thread with Rightwringer claiming 30% when it is actually 23% (which is a proposal), as an example.

It should be easy for YOU to make the case against Fair Tax in some detail, as YOU claim you have a background in Finance.

Go for it!
You IDIOT.
You know infinitely less about finance (even math) than climate, which doesn't seem possible, but obviously is.
Under FairyTax....
A $100 item will cost $130.
That's a 30% sales tax.
But FairYtax, calls that "23% tax inclusive" by dividing 30/130.
NO one else/NO state uses that riDICKulous method/deception.

All other sales taxes are simply stated as the rate you pay over then item cost. (aka 'Tax exclusive')
Only FairYTax tries that absurd deception.
And again that rate would only produce about half the revenue needed.

FairYtax, unlike state taxes, has no exemptions.
ALL goods and services.
FOOD, RENT, New House, Medical procedures/Insurance/prescriptions all would be taxed 30%. Even the Military would have to pay the 30% to buy a Tank/Jet/etc.

You are just a Contrary MORON, with no grasp of even simple math.

`

Ah, so you have no actual case, just an insult filled unverified, unsourced reply is the best you can do...... :21:

Here is one published paper you never read, from Suffolk University:

A Comparison of the FairTax Base and Rate with Other National Tax Reform Proposals

selected excerpt:

The larger tax base under the FairTax and BTT translate into the lowest tax-inclusive rates (23.82 percent and 24.49 percent, respectively) while the current tax law and flat tax have the highest inclusive rates at 32.55 percent and 29.68 percent, respectively. These rates are calculated assuming that all plans replace the same taxes as the FairTax, including the federal payroll tax.

•A distributional analysis indicates that the FairTax, flat tax, and BTT – all consumption taxes – are progressive when measured against expenditure or lifetime income and regressive when measured against current income. The current tax law is progressive when measured against current income but much less progressive when measured against current expenditure or lifetime income

LINK

=========================
Your 30% claim is a provable lie, here is what the PROPOSED Fair Tax actually says:

“SEC. 101. Imposition of sales tax.

“(a) In General.—There is hereby imposed a tax on the use or consumption in the United States of taxable property or services.

“(b) Rate.—

“(1) FOR 2021.—In the calendar year 2021, the rate of tax is 23 percent of the gross payments for the taxable property or service.

“(2) FOR YEARS AFTER 2021.—For years after the calendar year 2021, the rate of tax is the combined Federal tax rate percentage (as defined in paragraph (3)) of the gross payments for the taxable property or service."

bolding mine


Already posted the link TWICE now and still you are lying about the tax rate.

Your ugly replies doesn't help your case.......................
 
FairTax, Flawed Tax
By Bruce Bartlett (deputy assistant secretary of the Treasury for economic policy from 1988 to 1993.)
Wall Street Journal - 2007
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB118800635034508655

[.....]For those who never heard about it, the FairTax is a national retail sales tax that would replace the entire current federal tax system. It was originally devised by the Church of Scientology in the early 1990s as a way to get rid of the Internal Revenue Service, with which the church was then at war (at the time the IRS refused to recognize it as a legitimate religion)....
[.....]
In reality, the FairTax rate is Not 23%. Messrs. Linder and Chambliss get this figure by calculating the tax as if it were already incorporated into the price of goods and services. (This is known as the tax-inclusive rate.) Calculating it the conventional way that every other sales tax is calculated, with the tax on top of the price, yields a rate of 30%. (This is called the tax-exclusive rate.)
The distinction is confusing, but think of it this way. If a product costs $1 at retail, the FairTax adds 30%, for a total of $1.30. Since the 30-cent tax is 23% of $1.30, FairTax supporters say the rate is 23% rather than 30%.

This is only the beginning of the deceptions in the FairTax. Under the Linder-Chambliss bill, the federal government would have to pay taxes to itself on all of its purchases of goods and services. Thus if the Defense Department buys a tank that now costs $1 million, the manufacturer would have to add the FairTax and send it to the Treasury Department. The tank would then cost the federal government $300,000 more than it does today, but its tax collection will also be $300,000 higher.
[.....]
Similarly, state and local governments would have to pay the FairTax on most of their purchases. This means that it is partly financed by higher state and local taxes. It's also worth remembering that state sales taxes now average 6%, which means that the total tax rate will be 36% on retail sales.

State sales taxes have long exempted all but a few services because of the enormous difficulty in taxing intangibles. But the FairTax would apply to 100% of Services, including Medical care, thus increasing their cost by 30%. No state comes close to taxing services so broadly.

Consumers would also find themselves taxed on newly constructed homes. Imagine paying 30% to the federal government on top of the purchase price of your next house.

Since sales taxes are regressive -- taking more in percentage terms from the incomes of the poor and middle class than the rich -- some provision is needed to prevent a vast increase in taxation on the nonwealthy. The FairTax does this by sending monthly checks to every household based on income.

Aside from the incredible complexity and intrusiveness of tracking every American's monthly income -- and creating a de facto national welfare program -- the FairTax does not include the cost of this rebate in the tax rate. As noted earlier, the FairTax is designed only to match current revenues and does not cover any increased spending that it may require. Since the rebate will cost at least $600 billion the first year, either federal discretionary spending would have to be cut by 60% or the rate would have to be five percentage points higher than advertised. ...professional revenue estimators have always concluded that a national retail sales tax would have to be much, much higher than 23%.

A 2000 estimate by Congress's Joint Committee on Taxation found the tax-inclusive rate would have to be 36% and the tax-exclusive rate would be 57%.
In 2005, the U.S. Treasury Department calculated that a tax-exclusive rate of 34% would be needed just to replace the income tax, leaving the payroll tax in place.
But if evasion were high then the rate might have to rise to 49%.
If the FairTax were only able to cover the limited sales tax base of a typical state, then a rate of 64% would be required (89% with high evasion).


I've emphasized problems with the FairTax rate because public opinion polls have long shown that support for flat-rate tax reforms is extremely sensitive to the proposed rate, with support dropping off sharply at a rate higher than 23%....
[.....]
Perhaps the biggest deception in the FairTax, however, is its promise to relieve individuals from having to file income tax returns, keep extensive financial records and potentially suffer audits. Judging by the emphasis FairTax supporters place on the idea of making April 15 just another day, this seems to be a major selling point for their proposal. Yet all but six states now have state income taxes. So unless one lives in one of those states, this promise is an empty one indeed. In short, the FairTax is too good to be true, and voters should not take seriously any candidate who supports it.""

`
 
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Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax
"..As defined in the proposed legislation, the tax rate is 23% for the first year. This percentage is based on the total amount paid including the tax ($23 out of every $100 spent in total). This would be equivalent to a 30% traditional U.S. sales tax ($23 on top of every $77 spent—$100 total).[4]​

`
 
NY Times
The 23 Percent Solution expired
(now here The 23 Percent Solution? | Citizens for Tax Justice - Working for a fair and sustainable tax system )

...According to the group's figures, at 1995 levels a new sales tax would have to raise $1.36 trillion to replace all Federal income taxes, payroll taxes and estate and gift taxes. Under its plan, the group says, taxable spending would be $4.6 trillion (after accounting for rebates to partly protect lower-income families). So, $1.36 trillion divided by $4.6 trillion would be the required sales tax rate. Fine, except that $1.36 trillion divided by $4.6 trillion is not 23%. It's about 30%.

It turns out that the group's purported 23% tax rate is Misleading and hypothetical.
It came up with that number by dividing the sales tax by the cost of a purchase plus the tax.
So if the tax on a $100 purchase is $30, the group prefers to call it a 23% "tax inclusive rate" ($30 divided by $130).
Ever hear of computing a sales tax like that?

The fact that the group's sales tax, even by its own figures, entails a 30% tax rate is only the beginning of the math problems.

The fact that the group’s sales tax, even by its own figures, entails a 30% tax rate is only the beginning of the math problems. The group’s backup materials also assert that almost a third of its projected sales-tax revenue is supposed to come from taxes the Government will pay to itself. Build a road, pay yourself a tax. Buy some planes for the Air Force, pay yourself some more. And so on.

Unfortunately, that shell game won’t work. Without these phantom governmental tax payments, the sales tax rate would have to jump to 42% to break even.

A bit more digging reveals that a quarter of the remaining sales taxes are supposed to be paid on things like church services, free care at veterans hospitals and a variety of hard-to-tax financial services like free checking accounts. If we discount the taxes on these items, the sales tax rate would have to climb to an astronomical 56% to break even.

Apparently, the millions of dollars that Americans for Fair Taxation says it has spent on focus groups and polling have taught it an important lesson: giving people the real facts about a national sales tax is politically disastrous for its proponents. So the group is trying the only other available route: cooking the numbers.

and again, to even be that Faux-Low, Fairytax, Unlike State sales taxes, taxes RENT!, FOOD, New House!, MEDICAL Procedures/Insurance/Prescriptions, Hotel Rooms, Your PHONE/Internet bill, All goods and services.

`
 
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It is obvious you didn't read my links that addresses your claim, here are the links you IGNORED

I checked your link....it FAILs to provide an assessment of who will end up paying more and who will end up paying less

Given the bulk of the tax is on purchases and working class spends a higher percent of their income on purchases......it is obvious who will pay more

How about we treat stock buying and real estate transactions as purchases?

:auiqs.jpg:

Gawad it is clear you didn't read the links, why are you trying to lie past me on it?

Here is an example on what you didn't read, that destroys your lies:

Finance & Investing

LINK

You manage to miss the link about comparing current tax system with Fair Tax proposal, which makes clear the lower income brackets would pay LESS over all.

LINK

and this LINK

By the way the super rich already do a lot of non compliance with current Tax code, they use loopholes and sweet tax evasions that are built in the tax code, that only the rich can use.

Bill Gates has written off $20 Million using the holes in the Tax code.
Damn...
30 percent sales tax will be very unpopular
It will be hard to convince people it is “fair”
There is nothing fair about any sort of progressive tax...
Fairest tax system there is
Applies equally to everyone
Na, not really
A success tax is the least fair of all taxes
 
Nobody has proposed a fair tax where the poor and working class do not end up paying more and the rich do not pay less

Well, there is a reason the OP made a point of not linking to any of the actual Bills themselves; I've read them all, and they all bury the loopholes way down near the end, where they hope nobody ever sees them. They're just jokes nobody need take seriously, much like your Democratic Party is.
Nobody has proposed a fair tax where the poor and working class do not end up paying more and the rich do not pay less

Well, there is a reason the OP made a point of not linking to any of the actual Bills themselves; I've read them all, and they all bury the loopholes way down near the end, where they hope nobody ever sees them. They're just jokes nobody need take seriously, much like your Democratic Party is.
Even when they eliminate the loopholes for the rich, they have a way of working themselves back in under the guise of......they will create jobs
So are you guys saying there is no way to devise a "Fair Tax" that is fair and protects the most vulnerable among us? That we must defend and protect a tax system that requires volumes of code, can only be deciphered by "experts," requires untold hours of compliance that do NOTHING to add to our prosperity, and which - for a price - can be scammed by the super rich you guys are so determined to have "pay their fair share?"

Keep in mind that in 2015 the top earning 17% of Americans paid over 80% of all federal personal income taxes while the bottom 44% paid 1.4%.

Who pays U.S. income tax, and how much?

What 'volumes of code' affects anybody all at once? The volume of code that affects me personally is very small, and is all laid out pretty clearly on the booklets that explain each form, same for most people I know. The volumes of code that are large are those demanded by corporate lobbyists and businessmen themselves, outlining all their special exemptions, subsidies, etc., which is why we have such accounting specialties as 'Oil and Gas' and the like. Big business loves to hamper and keep small businesses from becoming big businesses via tax codes, patent lawsuits, etc.

Again, if the 'Fair Tax' peddlers were actually serious they wouldn't be caught dead supporting the Bills they keep proposing, just as the 'laissez faire' types would be raising hell over the limited liability scam and short sale restrictions as loudly as they snivel and whine about minimum wage laws, which is merely an extension of the same principles..

Why not link to the actual Bills proposed if they're not ashamed for people to actually read them?

Keep in mind that in 2015 the top earning 17% of Americans paid over 80% of all federal personal income taxes while the bottom 44% paid 1.4%.

So what? They also take in more than 80% of all income; they merely get all kinds of deductions few but themselves qualify for that drastically reduces and under reports their real incomes. See the L-Curve for the real picture of incomes in the U.S., and the world, for that matter.

The L-Curve 2.0: An Updated Graph of the US Income Distribution

They should be paying 100% of Federal income taxes.
Lame dodge. So are you saying there is no way to devise a "Fair Tax" that is fair and protects the most vulnerable among us? That we must defend and protect the current tax system?
 
If you were half as smart as Bear you would know that the poster who proudly announces to this laughing audience that he has "twice your IQ and 100x more knowledge" and then stalks off in a "bye twat" huff is widely recognized as a village idiot and more than likely gay.
Unlike everyone else here, I've spent a lifetime in finance.

If you have a good handle on economics/math, you know immediately the proposal is a scam, as it drastically would cut taxes on the very rich and leave the 'rev neutral' burden on the Middle/Bottom.
It's that simple.


But beyond that, I laid out the fraudulent details with a WSJ (my home page) article from Bush 1's undersecretary of the Treasury.
One of the biggies/for openers is their "23%" is actually "30%." (which is about Half what is needed IAC)

NO one here, obviously no advocate, has ever done anything more than see the FairYtax, or quote it's BS website, and say "Hey that sounds like a good idea."

90% of you are 2 digit IQers, who even in this day and age when research is so simple.. still don't do it.

`
So you are sticking with your "I'm smart and you're not" argument, Oh Pompous One? Did you miss the part in my post in which I explained that the poster who proudly announces to this laughing audience that he has "twice your IQ and 100x more knowledge" and then stalks off in a "bye twat" huff is widely recognized as a village idiot and more than likely gay? Did you not understand it?
 
A "fair tax" is nothing but a new name for a flat tax.

Which is a HUGE tax cut for the very wealthy and a MONSTER tax increase for everyone else.

How is that most favorable for the wealthy? Unless you people are TAKING high percentages of people’s income, nothing is considered “fair”. The wealthy already pay most of the tax bill and that is not fair enough.
 
Whether a "fair tax" is practical is anybody's guess but you will never see it during a democrat administration. As a matter of fact all you will see in a democrat (God forbid) majority is higher federal, state and local taxes. Look at the gas prices in the people's republic of California.
 
Wait...so this "Fair Tax" would be a TWENTY THREE per cent tax on EVERY penny spent?

That's a HUGE tax increase for the middle class

My current effective tax is less than 15% now...and with deductions...
Really? You pay no state or local taxes? The products and services you purchase pay none? You currently pay no sales tax on anything? You don't pay into SS?

Do you ever know the diff between your bunghole and a doughnut hole?

This is an adult subject ... go away.
 
So you are sticking with your "I'm smart and you're not" argument, Oh Pompous One? Did you miss the part in my post in which I explained that the poster who proudly announces to this laughing audience that he has "twice your IQ and 100x more knowledge" and then stalks off in a "bye twat" huff is widely recognized as a village idiot and more than likely gay? Did you not understand it?
Yes, I'm, sticking with that...
(as FairYtax was an obviously laughable and regressive scam to anyone who has math or Eco skills)

AND, of course, tons of Facts from Primo sources I posted on the last page and previous, which you totally omit from your 'reply.'

How DISHONEST as well as Stupid you are.

You just yap with hostility, posting NO rebuttal and NO ON TOPIC FACTS.
Zip
A Troll.

`

`
 
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If Dems (and GOP for that matter) wanted REAL tax fairness and reform, they would beg Trump
to pass the Fair Tax. Today wouldn't be tax day anymore. Bye-bye to IRS.

Pass the FAIRtax | FAIRtax.org

we need to overhaul and simplify the tax code, my friends!

what we need are the same tax and regulatory problems we had between 1945-1975, when we had the largest middleclass expansion in the country, and a single bread winner could pay for a house, put the kids through college, and still take a vacation. I notice that the wealthy and corporations were doing just fine.
 
If Dems (and GOP for that matter) wanted REAL tax fairness and reform, they would beg Trump
to pass the Fair Tax. Today wouldn't be tax day anymore. Bye-bye to IRS.

Pass the FAIRtax | FAIRtax.org

we need to overhaul and simplify the tax code, my friends!
The idea you think the Fair Tax would eliminate the need for the IRS you are dumber than you look.
It might no eliminate it but it will greatly reduce the size of it since only retailers will have to be audited to prove they collected and paid the tax.
 
It is obvious you didn't read my links that addresses your claim, here are the links you IGNORED

I checked your link....it FAILs to provide an assessment of who will end up paying more and who will end up paying less

Given the bulk of the tax is on purchases and working class spends a higher percent of their income on purchases......it is obvious who will pay more

How about we treat stock buying and real estate transactions as purchases?

:auiqs.jpg:

Gawad it is clear you didn't read the links, why are you trying to lie past me on it?

Here is an example on what you didn't read, that destroys your lies:

Finance & Investing

LINK

You manage to miss the link about comparing current tax system with Fair Tax proposal, which makes clear the lower income brackets would pay LESS over all.

LINK

and this LINK

By the way the super rich already do a lot of non compliance with current Tax code, they use loopholes and sweet tax evasions that are built in the tax code, that only the rich can use.

Bill Gates has written off $20 Million using the holes in the Tax code.
Damn...
30 percent sales tax will be very unpopular
It will be hard to convince people it is “fair”
There is nothing fair about any sort of progressive tax...
Fairest tax system there is
Applies equally to everyone
So does a flat income tax but you don't like that
 
Wait...so this "Fair Tax" would be a TWENTY THREE per cent tax on EVERY penny spent?

That's a HUGE tax increase for the middle class

My current effective tax is less than 15% now...and with deductions...
Really? You pay no state or local taxes? The products and services you purchase pay none? You currently pay no sales tax on anything? You don't pay into SS?

Do you ever know the diff between your bunghole and a doughnut hole?

This is an adult subject ... go away.
Excuse me?

The "Fair Tax" is going to eliminate all other taxes?
 
Nobody has proposed a fair tax where the poor and working class do not end up paying more and the rich do not pay less

That's because the tax system we have now isn't fair as different people get different treatment
Yea...those that can't afford to pay and still EAT...don't pay as much as those that piss away more than those poorer folks MAKE
 
Nobody has proposed a fair tax where the poor and working class do not end up paying more and the rich do not pay less

Well, there is a reason the OP made a point of not linking to any of the actual Bills themselves; I've read them all, and they all bury the loopholes way down near the end, where they hope nobody ever sees them. They're just jokes nobody need take seriously, much like your Democratic Party is.
Even when they eliminate the loopholes for the rich, they have a way of working themselves back in under the guise of......they will create jobs
They do create some jobs; lots of them in Mexico, Viet Nam, Taiwan, India .. anyplace with lots of sweatshops and prison factories.
 
A "fair tax" is nothing but a new name for a flat tax.

Which is a HUGE tax cut for the very wealthy and a MONSTER tax increase for everyone else.

False!

Flat Tax--- A "flat tax" is an income tax system in which everyone pays the same tax rate regardless of how much income they have.

Fair Tax-- The FairTax is a national sales tax that treats every person equally and allows American businesses to thrive, while generating the same tax revenue as the current four-million-word-plus tax code. Under the FairTax, every person living in the United States pays a sales tax on purchases of new goods and services, excluding necessities due to the prebate.

=================================

Fair Tax makes it impossible to cheat on taxes, and no IRS needed as it is immediately applied on every purchase. Save a lot of money and headache in the process.

Fair Tax is way better than Flat Tax, since there are no need to keep track of anything as it is applied every time you buy something. No more tax filings, No more paperwork, no more having to pay more or get a refund on last years taxes, since all that is eliminated by Fair Tax.

The rest you say is old worn out baloney.


Every mis-labeled 'Fair Tax' Bill I've ever read was baloney, especially the parts where corporations pay no taxes on anything they buy, and nobody pays sales taxes on buying stocks and bonds. No matter how you lie around it, a 15% flat tax on people who have to spend most of their income every month to survive is far higher tax rate on low incomes than a 15% flat sales tax on some trust fund punk who only has to spend less than 1% of their income just for basic necessities.

Try reading this again, left links to them, which you obviously ignored:

Flat Tax--- A "flat tax" is an income tax system in which everyone pays the same tax rate regardless of how much income they have.

Fair Tax-- The FairTax is a national sales tax that treats every person equally and allows American businesses to thrive, while generating the same tax revenue as the current four-million-word-plus tax code. Under the FairTax, every person living in the United States pays a sales tax on purchases of new goods and services, excluding necessities due to the prebate.

Note the words INCOME Tax and SALES Tax. Try reading the links next time..................., they would tax EARNED INCOME. Eight states already use a Flat Tax system, again all this and more in the link!
A "fair tax" is nothing but a new name for a flat tax.

Which is a HUGE tax cut for the very wealthy and a MONSTER tax increase for everyone else.

False!

Flat Tax--- A "flat tax" is an income tax system in which everyone pays the same tax rate regardless of how much income they have.

Fair Tax-- The FairTax is a national sales tax that treats every person equally and allows American businesses to thrive, while generating the same tax revenue as the current four-million-word-plus tax code. Under the FairTax, every person living in the United States pays a sales tax on purchases of new goods and services, excluding necessities due to the prebate.

=================================

Fair Tax makes it impossible to cheat on taxes, and no IRS needed as it is immediately applied on every purchase. Save a lot of money and headache in the process.

Fair Tax is way better than Flat Tax, since there are no need to keep track of anything as it is applied every time you buy something. No more tax filings, No more paperwork, no more having to pay more or get a refund on last years taxes, since all that is eliminated by Fair Tax.

The rest you say is old worn out baloney.


Every mis-labeled 'Fair Tax' Bill I've ever read was baloney, especially the parts where corporations pay no taxes on anything they buy, and nobody pays sales taxes on buying stocks and bonds. No matter how you lie around it, a 15% flat tax on people who have to spend most of their income every month to survive is far higher tax rate on low incomes than a 15% flat sales tax on some trust fund punk who only has to spend less than 1% of their income just for basic necessities.

Try reading this again, left links to them, which you obviously ignored:

Flat Tax--- A "flat tax" is an income tax system in which everyone pays the same tax rate regardless of how much income they have.

Fair Tax-- The FairTax is a national sales tax that treats every person equally and allows American businesses to thrive, while generating the same tax revenue as the current four-million-word-plus tax code. Under the FairTax, every person living in the United States pays a sales tax on purchases of new goods and services, excluding necessities due to the prebate.

Note the words INCOME Tax and SALES Tax. Try reading the links next time..................., they would tax EARNED INCOME. Eight states already use a Flat Tax system, again all this and more in the link!

I clicked on your OP link, and at your sniveling clicked on your 'flat tax' scam link; neither linked to any of the Bills. That's okay; we know why already. No need to waste more of my time on Link Fail # 3'.

Know the difference between a Bill and a web page full of propaganda?

:auiqs.jpg::auiqs.jpg::auiqs.jpg:

They are one of the main supporters of the plan....., you have yet to post a true counterpoint to what I posted, but you want bills which are also talked about in MY link I posted:

States FairTax Legislation Initiatives

Excerpt:

Our mission to pass The FAIRtax is a federal initiative and we have legislation in the House Of Representatives as H.R.25 - “FairTax Act of 2019”. To pass House Resolution 25, we must have our Federal Representatives become Co-Sponsors. To have them Co-Sponsor means we must meet with them to present The FAIRtax.

LINK from the Fair Tax website you didn't explore

======

and from The United States CONGRESS website about the same bill Fair Tax website talks about and support:

H.R.25 - FairTax Act of 2019

LINK


===================

The Fair Tax website did link to the bill, which your mental laziness prevented you from seeing.

You are full of crap!

lol like we're supposed to hunt around and click every link on your propaganda page or something? Again, you obviously avoided posting to any of the actual bills for a reason.

The Peanut Gallery can check out Section 102 and later, i.e. "Chapter 1" among others; this is where business exempt themselves from any taxes, while in previous sections they keep their 'Corporate Personhood' and limited liability scam intact. see Section 201 and similar fare. It's a joke Bill, like the last 12 have been.

Don't waste a lot of time trying to jump around as it is meant to deceive; basically it says corporations don't mind if their janitors get the crap taxed out of them, but anything a corporate office buys is tax free and even granted a tax credit. Just the type of 'tax reform' one would expect from swindlers. No taxes on things like company limos or stock sales, for instance.
 

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