The free market at work in Houston

[Dim Bulb]

Price gouging stupid tourists is a-okay.

Price gouging people who've been through hell and are in a disaster area for needed essentials like clean drinking water is as abhorrent an act as you could possibly engage in.

So I'm sitting at home watching a hurricane bear down on my town and I go purchase some food supplies and bottled water. My neighbor doesn't do that. The hurricane hits and he needs food and water. What should the price be for me to sell him some items?

Price gouging during an emergency would be the 'neighborly' thing to do.

Who cares about neighborly, maybe his dog barked all night and he was a dick. The point is that in a market you need a product to sell and a buyer who doesn't have that product but needs or wants it. The circumstances of that need or want don't mean much. You're preferring charity over business. Which can be noble but only if it comes from you not forced on others.

So to answer my question. At what price do I sell food and water to people who didn't prepare ahead of time?

Price gouging during an emergency is a criminal act. Why would you want to commit an illegal act, other then running to church and being absolved.

It's obvious you're cornered. So setting aside your feelings for a moment can you tell me what the legal definition of price gouging is? Or is it one of liberal constructs of I don't like that price so it must be price gouging?

There are actual state statutes on price gouging. It is unlawful in many states.

Florida Attorney General - Price Gouging Statute

 

[OnePercenter]

So I'm sitting at home watching a hurricane bear down on my town and I go purchase some food supplies and bottled water. My neighbor doesn't do that. The hurricane hits and he needs food and water. What should the price be for me to sell him some items?

Price gouging during an emergency would be the 'neighborly' thing to do.

Who cares about neighborly, maybe his dog barked all night and he was a dick. The point is that in a market you need a product to sell and a buyer who doesn't have that product but needs or wants it. The circumstances of that need or want don't mean much. You're preferring charity over business. Which can be noble but only if it comes from you not forced on others.

So to answer my question. At what price do I sell food and water to people who didn't prepare ahead of time?

Price gouging during an emergency is a criminal act. Why would you want to commit an illegal act, other then running to church and being absolved.

It's obvious you're cornered. So setting aside your feelings for a moment can you tell me what the legal definition of price gouging is? Or is it one of liberal constructs of I don't like that price so it must be price gouging?

There are actual state statutes on price gouging. It is unlawful in many states.

Florida Attorney General - Price Gouging Statute

He has nowhere to go. I tend to ignore those.

 

[whitehall]

Only 684 complaints and a single convenience store alleged to be price gouging. It sounds like the system is working pretty well but of course lefties prefer to dwell on the insane.

 

[Moonglow]

It's the law of supply and demand and by God this is a capitalist nation..

It's a capitalist nation with laws that protect consumers and programs funded by tax payers designed to help make our society better as a whole. All this was put in place over the course of years, elections, and laws written by our leaders under the constraints of our constitution. I'd try and come to grips with that if I were you.

There is just no way in hell I'm selling Trump shit tickets for less than 500% markup..

 

[Slade3200]

It's the law of supply and demand and by God this is a capitalist nation..

It's a capitalist nation with laws that protect consumers and programs funded by tax payers designed to help make our society better as a whole. All this was put in place over the course of years, elections, and laws written by our leaders under the constraints of our constitution. I'd try and come to grips with that if I were you.

Institutional economists would tell you that laws are simply devices to correct for market failure. In other words, interference with the free market.

Agreed, and this makes sense considering the fact that an unregulated free market can produce some pretty ugly things that end up countering a free and fair society

 

[Missouri_Mike]

Price gouging during an emergency would be the 'neighborly' thing to do.

Who cares about neighborly, maybe his dog barked all night and he was a dick. The point is that in a market you need a product to sell and a buyer who doesn't have that product but needs or wants it. The circumstances of that need or want don't mean much. You're preferring charity over business. Which can be noble but only if it comes from you not forced on others.

So to answer my question. At what price do I sell food and water to people who didn't prepare ahead of time?

Price gouging during an emergency is a criminal act. Why would you want to commit an illegal act, other then running to church and being absolved.

It's obvious you're cornered. So setting aside your feelings for a moment can you tell me what the legal definition of price gouging is? Or is it one of liberal constructs of I don't like that price so it must be price gouging?

There are actual state statutes on price gouging. It is unlawful in many states.

Florida Attorney General - Price Gouging Statute

He has nowhere to go. I tend to ignore those.

You got cornered and are taking the lifesaver from Dim? That's pathetic.

I did a quick parsing of his link. It's a bunch of subjective feel good bullshit only to be applied to certain people. 30 days ago bottled water wasn't worth as much as it was two days ago. Why? Because 30 days ago you could purchase cases of it pretty cheap. Not so much in the last week.

Does price gouging apply to stocks? Or are those people not the kind you are after? A stock crashes in a day or two. Do we apply the last 30 day standard to that?

Why the last 30 day standard? What genius came up with that? 30 minutes is a lifetime in a natural disaster. Wouldn't that be more reasonable?

 

[Missouri_Mike]

It's the law of supply and demand and by God this is a capitalist nation..

It's a capitalist nation with laws that protect consumers and programs funded by tax payers designed to help make our society better as a whole. All this was put in place over the course of years, elections, and laws written by our leaders under the constraints of our constitution. I'd try and come to grips with that if I were you.

Institutional economists would tell you that laws are simply devices to correct for market failure. In other words, interference with the free market.

Agreed, and this makes sense considering the fact that an unregulated free market can produce some pretty ugly things that end up countering a free and fair society

What things would that be? And what is free and fair about government regulation?

 

[Slade3200]

It's the law of supply and demand and by God this is a capitalist nation..

It's a capitalist nation with laws that protect consumers and programs funded by tax payers designed to help make our society better as a whole. All this was put in place over the course of years, elections, and laws written by our leaders under the constraints of our constitution. I'd try and come to grips with that if I were you.

Institutional economists would tell you that laws are simply devices to correct for market failure. In other words, interference with the free market.

Agreed, and this makes sense considering the fact that an unregulated free market can produce some pretty ugly things that end up countering a free and fair society

What things would that be? And what is free and fair about government regulation?

Come on, I really need to explain it to you? An unregulated free market leads to incredible wealth disparagies, ugly things like child labor and slavery have popped up in the past. Class warfare, increased poverty, ghettos, a society where the rich get richer by monopolizing the markets and squeezing out the "little guys" who try to compete.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

It's the law of supply and demand and by God this is a capitalist nation..

It's a capitalist nation with laws that protect consumers and programs funded by tax payers designed to help make our society better as a whole. All this was put in place over the course of years, elections, and laws written by our leaders under the constraints of our constitution. I'd try and come to grips with that if I were you.

Institutional economists would tell you that laws are simply devices to correct for market failure. In other words, interference with the free market.

Agreed, and this makes sense considering the fact that an unregulated free market can produce some pretty ugly things that end up countering a free and fair society

What things would that be? And what is free and fair about government regulation?

Come on, I really need to explain it to you? An unregulated free market leads to incredible wealth disparagies, ugly things like child labor and slavery have popped up in the past. Class warfare, increased poverty, ghettos, a society where the rich get richer by monopolizing the markets and squeezing out the "little guys" who try to compete.

You mean like they are doing today. Using regulations to keep out competition. More government isn't always the best option.

 

[Boss]

Nope. You have no constitutional property right other than to not be deprived of your property without due process.

Right... which IS your right to private property.

Right. Which is a mile away from an "inalienable right" that you first mentioned. So we agree.

It's not a mile away, it's right there in black and white. It cannot be deprived without due process. Again, no right is absolutely inalienable, including life.

Back to the topic of price gouging... I agree it's a contentious issue, especially for libertarians. It's a difficult one for me as a free market capitalist. I guess my viewpoint resides in the consideration of ethics. For the record, Thomas Sowell and Walter E. Williams disagree with my position, and I have tremendous respect for both.

So I'm sitting at home watching a hurricane bear down on my town and I go purchase some food supplies and bottled water. My neighbor doesn't do that. The hurricane hits and he needs food and water. What should the price be for me to sell him some items?

Mike raises an interesting point here. What is the proverbial line between gouging and reasonable or ethical? A quick look at various state laws, I am finding little help in determining this. Most of them simply conclude an ambiguous "within reason" sort of answer. But is that a 10% markup or 100% markup? It's not clearly defined except in California where they've determined a price cap of 10% markup on essential items.

Okay, so what if I am watching the same thing as Mike and I'm wealthy... I beat him to the store and buy up all the food and water... is that okay? We can play this ethics question out but the point is, there are ethics involved. Would it then become okay for a hoard of angry people to loot my stash of hoarded supplies because it's an emergency?

While I agree, it is an interesting question and a challenge to conventional wisdom regarding a free market system, the ethical component should be considered. In a time of disaster, with regard to items of necessity to the community, I think it is legitimate for government to intervene and establish some boundaries to protect the individual. The parameters of that can be debated and I am fine with it. Again, this is strictly my opinion and you don't have to agree... this isn't an "I'm right and you're wrong" kind of argument. There is a lot of room for nuance.

 

[bripat9643]

while I wholeheartedly support the free market to allocate resources, this might be an exception. From an economic standpoint the laws against price gouging are essentially the government stepping in to reallocate an advantage the wealthy have in times like this.

But even a free marketer like me doesn't mind government interference in this case. Who would?

$99 for a case of water: Texas officials report price gouging post-Harvey

by charging what the market will bear, the store will reserve its stock for those that really need it. If it charged the normal price, then people who don't even need the water would buy as much as the could leaving none for people coming after them.

Price Gouging Saves Lives in a Hurricane

 

[Boss]

Come on, I really need to explain it to you? An unregulated free market leads to incredible wealth disparagies, ugly things like child labor and slavery have popped up in the past. Class warfare, increased poverty, ghettos, a society where the rich get richer by monopolizing the markets and squeezing out the "little guys" who try to compete.

This is patently untrue. All the undesirable things you are talking about are exploitations that are not part of an honest free market system. We've never had an "unregulated" free market. We've always had a "system" which includes the free market, free enterprise, private property rights and constitutionally-protected freedom enforced by government. Now, government has not always protected constitutional freedoms but that's not entirely the fault of free market capitalism.

In an honest and fair free market system, transaction is voluntary between two willing parties. Price is determined by fair consideration of supply and demand but is mutually agreeable to both parties. You're not forced to purchase a product and I'm not forced to sell you a product at a price that isn't fair to us both. This system is the most benevolent system ever devised by man. It lifts people out of poverty and encourages wealth acquisition, which is a good thing.

 

[Slade3200]

It's a capitalist nation with laws that protect consumers and programs funded by tax payers designed to help make our society better as a whole. All this was put in place over the course of years, elections, and laws written by our leaders under the constraints of our constitution. I'd try and come to grips with that if I were you.

Institutional economists would tell you that laws are simply devices to correct for market failure. In other words, interference with the free market.

Agreed, and this makes sense considering the fact that an unregulated free market can produce some pretty ugly things that end up countering a free and fair society

What things would that be? And what is free and fair about government regulation?

Come on, I really need to explain it to you? An unregulated free market leads to incredible wealth disparagies, ugly things like child labor and slavery have popped up in the past. Class warfare, increased poverty, ghettos, a society where the rich get richer by monopolizing the markets and squeezing out the "little guys" who try to compete.

You mean like they are doing today. Using regulations to keep out competition. More government isn't always the best option.

Over regulation or abuse of regulations for croney deal making is absolutely a problem. But that doesn't mean that all government and all regulation is bad. Gotta be smart about it

 

[Slade3200]

Come on, I really need to explain it to you? An unregulated free market leads to incredible wealth disparagies, ugly things like child labor and slavery have popped up in the past. Class warfare, increased poverty, ghettos, a society where the rich get richer by monopolizing the markets and squeezing out the "little guys" who try to compete.

This is patently untrue. All the undesirable things you are talking about are exploitations that are not part of an honest free market system. We've never had an "unregulated" free market. We've always had a "system" which includes the free market, free enterprise, private property rights and constitutionally-protected freedom enforced by government. Now, government has not always protected constitutional freedoms but that's not entirely the fault of free market capitalism.

In an honest and fair free market system, transaction is voluntary between two willing parties. Price is determined by fair consideration of supply and demand but is mutually agreeable to both parties. You're not forced to purchase a product and I'm not forced to sell you a product at a price that isn't fair to us both. This system is the most benevolent system ever devised by man. It lifts people out of poverty and encourages wealth acquisition, which is a good thing.

And honest free market system? Ok that's fine, but what about people and our world makes you think that honesty would exist in an unregulated system? It wouldn't... people with power can easily abuse and take advantage of the poor and desperate. Capitalism is driven on profits not morals.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

while I wholeheartedly support the free market to allocate resources, this might be an exception. From an economic standpoint the laws against price gouging are essentially the government stepping in to reallocate an advantage the wealthy have in times like this.

But even a free marketer like me doesn't mind government interference in this case. Who would?

$99 for a case of water: Texas officials report price gouging post-Harvey

He doesn't need to be regulated.











He needs to be beat the fuck down with a bumper jack. THAT would be the free market in action.

 

[Boss]

And honest free market system? Ok that's fine, but what about people and our world makes you think that honesty would exist in an unregulated system? It wouldn't... people with power can easily abuse and take advantage of the poor and desperate. Capitalism is driven on profits not morals.

When have I advocated an unregulated system? Look... Capitalism, in of itself, is not some righteous and glorious thing. It can be very cruel and uncaring, exploitive and ugly. It is often pitted against Socialism or Marxism but the fact is, any Communist country engages in capitalism. North Korea produces goods and sells them on the market... capitalism. Of course, the oligarchs who rule the nation take all the profits and the people forced to produce starve to death.

Again, what makes us unique is our SYSTEM. There are components built into the system which are intended to alleviate the exploitations and abuses. We have antitrust laws to protect against monopolies. Pure capitalism IS driven on profits and not morals, that's why a SYSTEM is needed.

 

[Dim Bulb]

Nope. You have no constitutional property right other than to not be deprived of your property without due process.

Right... which IS your right to private property.

Right. Which is a mile away from an "inalienable right" that you first mentioned. So we agree.

It's not a mile away, it's right there in black and white. It cannot be deprived without due process. Again, no right is absolutely inalienable, including life.

Back to the topic of price gouging... I agree it's a contentious issue, especially for libertarians. It's a difficult one for me as a free market capitalist. I guess my viewpoint resides in the consideration of ethics. For the record, Thomas Sowell and Walter E. Williams disagree with my position, and I have tremendous respect for both.

So I'm sitting at home watching a hurricane bear down on my town and I go purchase some food supplies and bottled water. My neighbor doesn't do that. The hurricane hits and he needs food and water. What should the price be for me to sell him some items?

Mike raises an interesting point here. What is the proverbial line between gouging and reasonable or ethical? A quick look at various state laws, I am finding little help in determining this. Most of them simply conclude an ambiguous "within reason" sort of answer. But is that a 10% markup or 100% markup? It's not clearly defined except in California where they've determined a price cap of 10% markup on essential items.

Okay, so what if I am watching the same thing as Mike and I'm wealthy... I beat him to the store and buy up all the food and water... is that okay? We can play this ethics question out but the point is, there are ethics involved. Would it then become okay for a hoard of angry people to loot my stash of hoarded supplies because it's an emergency?

While I agree, it is an interesting question and a challenge to conventional wisdom regarding a free market system, the ethical component should be considered. In a time of disaster, with regard to items of necessity to the community, I think it is legitimate for government to intervene and establish some boundaries to protect the individual. The parameters of that can be debated and I am fine with it. Again, this is strictly my opinion and you don't have to agree... this isn't an "I'm right and you're wrong" kind of argument. There is a lot of room for nuance.

Inalienable rights do not appear in the constitution. It isn't there. Unless by black and white you mean your post. You might want to refer to the Declaration of Independence which if I am remembering correctly states that "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" (not property) are inalienable rights. No real legal effect to that.

I agree that the question is one of personal ethics though. Essentially when you say "honest" and "fair" free market you are overlaying a value judgment on a true free market. And that has nothing to do with constitutional law.

 

[Boss]

Inalienable rights do not appear in the constitution. It isn't there. Unless by black and white you mean your post. You might want to refer to the Declaration of Independence which if I am remembering correctly states that "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness" (not property) are inalienable rights. No real legal effect to that.

I agree that the question is one of personal ethics though. Essentially when you say "honest" and "fair" free market you are overlaying a value judgment on a true free market. And that has nothing to do with constitutional law.

Well I'm not going to get into a meaningless pissing contest with your over the constitution. I assure you, I know just as much as you know about it. For the record, the SCOTUS has upheld laws against price gouging, so it IS constitutional. The DoI isn't a legal and binding document but it IS the cornerstone and foundation for the Constitution. This makes it fundamentally important in determining the intent of the Constitution in every respect.

I agree that "honest and fair" are value judgements but so are ethics. The government plays a role in a free market system. That's not to say they have unfettered authority, that would negate a free market. However, they do have an obligation to protect the citizen against unfair and unethical practices. Yes, it is indeed a value judgement but it's established by free people in a representative republic.

 

[Slade3200]

And honest free market system? Ok that's fine, but what about people and our world makes you think that honesty would exist in an unregulated system? It wouldn't... people with power can easily abuse and take advantage of the poor and desperate. Capitalism is driven on profits not morals.

When have I advocated an unregulated system? Look... Capitalism, in of itself, is not some righteous and glorious thing. It can be very cruel and uncaring, exploitive and ugly. It is often pitted against Socialism or Marxism but the fact is, any Communist country engages in capitalism. North Korea produces goods and sells them on the market... capitalism. Of course, the oligarchs who rule the nation take all the profits and the people forced to produce starve to death.

Again, what makes us unique is our SYSTEM. There are components built into the system which are intended to alleviate the exploitations and abuses. We have antitrust laws to protect against monopolies. Pure capitalism IS driven on profits and not morals, that's why a SYSTEM is needed.

Well said, I agree. I wasn't accusing you of saying anything that you didn't. I made a simple point that bad shit happens in a free market capitalist system with NO regulation. Smart regulation is useful and necessary in a country like ours. I've also said that abuses and over regulation can equally cause problems, so a smart balance needs to be reached.

 

[bripat9643]

It's the law of supply and demand and by God this is a capitalist nation..

It's a capitalist nation with laws that protect consumers and programs funded by tax payers designed to help make our society better as a whole. All this was put in place over the course of years, elections, and laws written by our leaders under the constraints of our constitution. I'd try and come to grips with that if I were you.

Institutional economists would tell you that laws are simply devices to correct for market failure. In other words, interference with the free market.

Agreed, and this makes sense considering the fact that an unregulated free market can produce some pretty ugly things that end up countering a free and fair society

What things would that be? And what is free and fair about government regulation?

Come on, I really need to explain it to you? An unregulated free market leads to incredible wealth disparagies, ugly things like child labor and slavery have popped up in the past. Class warfare, increased poverty, ghettos, a society where the rich get richer by monopolizing the markets and squeezing out the "little guys" who try to compete.

Child labor isn't a phenomenon peculiar to capitalism. It's been around for tens of thousands of years. Capitalism is the institution that allowed it to finally disappear. Slavery is also no an intrinsic feature of capitalism. It's another evil that capitalism eliminated.

Are you trying to tell us that class warfare didn't exist before capitalism? Of course it did. income disparities were far worse in the pre-capitalist era. Capitalism reduced poverty. Capitalism drastically reduced the child morality rate, and the population increased by leaps the bounds. The reason it did was because people had enough to eat and decent cloths to wear. They were no longer dying in droves. Ghettos were also not peculiar to capitalism.

Every claim in your post is a leftwing myth.