The Grim Reaper aka McConnell will cause people to stop working if they receive a one time check of 1400 bucks

[Slade3200]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

Because it is China's intent. So you want to run a deficit forever? What level of debt would be too much in your view? In 2020 we spent 5% on interest expense. What % would be too high in your view? Again, rates are at historic lows but they will rise. If there is ever a decline in demand for US treasuries we are in serious trouble. Right now we remain the safest investment but we have a lot of unrest in America and way too much debt IMO. Borrowing costs will slow growth because we are allocating monies to paying interest vs. other areas of need.

China is making its move

How China Will Take Over The World

The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) is only a few months away from launching the digital version of the Chinese Yuan, making China the first country in the world to have a digital central bank currency.

www.forbes.com

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Dollar Hegemony Is Under Fire From China’s Rapid Growth Recovery

China’s light-speed recovery from the pandemic has reignited the perennial debate about how long the dollar’s 50-year dominance of global markets can persist.

www.bloomberg.com

 

[Slade3200]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

Because it is China's intent. So you want to run a deficit forever? What level of debt would be too much in your view? In 2020 we spent 5% on interest expense. What % would be too high in your view? Again, rates are at historic lows but they will rise. If there is ever a decline in demand for US treasuries we are in serious trouble. Right now we remain the safest investment but we have a lot of unrest in America and way too much debt IMO. Borrowing costs will slow growth because we are allocating monies to paying interest vs. other areas of need.

China is making its move

How China Will Take Over The World

The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) is only a few months away from launching the digital version of the Chinese Yuan, making China the first country in the world to have a digital central bank currency.

www.forbes.com

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Dollar Hegemony Is Under Fire From China’s Rapid Growth Recovery

China’s light-speed recovery from the pandemic has reignited the perennial debate about how long the dollar’s 50-year dominance of global markets can persist.

www.bloomberg.com

I think its probably a good thing to look at why China is taking over. Is it because they are spending less and paying off their debt or because they are producing more and investing more all over the world?? Think about it.

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert on the economy. I'm good with numbers but I'll admit when I started digging into this subject a few years ago I found that the more I learned the more ass backwards my thinking was before I studied it. I used the make the same arguments that you're making right now. But the economics of a national economy with its own sovereign currency is a beast to understand and I still have a long way to go. With that said I'll try to address your questions...

Right now I don't see the harm in running deficits especially with China nipping at our heels. If we ran a surplus that would simply burn money out of the economy and weaken our stronghold. The best thing we can do is invest and stimulate others to conduct commerce using US dollars. The dollar is currently a safe investment because it is used everywhere. It is used everywhere because people are borrowing and spending and investing in it. Those who own it will protect it.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

Because it is China's intent. So you want to run a deficit forever? What level of debt would be too much in your view? In 2020 we spent 5% on interest expense. What % would be too high in your view? Again, rates are at historic lows but they will rise. If there is ever a decline in demand for US treasuries we are in serious trouble. Right now we remain the safest investment but we have a lot of unrest in America and way too much debt IMO. Borrowing costs will slow growth because we are allocating monies to paying interest vs. other areas of need.

China is making its move

How China Will Take Over The World

The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) is only a few months away from launching the digital version of the Chinese Yuan, making China the first country in the world to have a digital central bank currency.

www.forbes.com

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Dollar Hegemony Is Under Fire From China’s Rapid Growth Recovery

China’s light-speed recovery from the pandemic has reignited the perennial debate about how long the dollar’s 50-year dominance of global markets can persist.

www.bloomberg.com

I think its probably a good thing to look at why China is taking over. Is it because they are spending less and paying off their debt or because they are producing more and investing more all over the world?? Think about it.

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert on the economy. I'm good with numbers but I'll admit when I started digging into this subject a few years ago I found that the more I learned the more ass backwards my thinking was before I studied it. I used the make the same arguments that you're making right now. But the economics of a national economy with its own sovereign currency is a beast to understand and I still have a long way to go. With that said I'll try to address your questions...

Right now I don't see the harm in running deficits especially with China nipping at our heels. If we ran a surplus that would simply burn money out of the economy and weaken our stronghold. The best thing we can do is invest and stimulate others to conduct commerce using US dollars. The dollar is currently a safe investment because it is used everywhere. It is used everywhere because people are borrowing and spending and investing in it. Those who own it will protect it.

Safe until it isn't. You didn't answer me. What level of debt would make you uncomfortable?

 

[Slade3200]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

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Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

Because it is China's intent. So you want to run a deficit forever? What level of debt would be too much in your view? In 2020 we spent 5% on interest expense. What % would be too high in your view? Again, rates are at historic lows but they will rise. If there is ever a decline in demand for US treasuries we are in serious trouble. Right now we remain the safest investment but we have a lot of unrest in America and way too much debt IMO. Borrowing costs will slow growth because we are allocating monies to paying interest vs. other areas of need.

China is making its move

How China Will Take Over The World

The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) is only a few months away from launching the digital version of the Chinese Yuan, making China the first country in the world to have a digital central bank currency.

www.forbes.com

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Dollar Hegemony Is Under Fire From China’s Rapid Growth Recovery

China’s light-speed recovery from the pandemic has reignited the perennial debate about how long the dollar’s 50-year dominance of global markets can persist.

www.bloomberg.com

I think its probably a good thing to look at why China is taking over. Is it because they are spending less and paying off their debt or because they are producing more and investing more all over the world?? Think about it.

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert on the economy. I'm good with numbers but I'll admit when I started digging into this subject a few years ago I found that the more I learned the more ass backwards my thinking was before I studied it. I used the make the same arguments that you're making right now. But the economics of a national economy with its own sovereign currency is a beast to understand and I still have a long way to go. With that said I'll try to address your questions...

Right now I don't see the harm in running deficits especially with China nipping at our heels. If we ran a surplus that would simply burn money out of the economy and weaken our stronghold. The best thing we can do is invest and stimulate others to conduct commerce using US dollars. The dollar is currently a safe investment because it is used everywhere. It is used everywhere because people are borrowing and spending and investing in it. Those who own it will protect it.

Safe until it isn't. You didn't answer me. What level of debt would make you uncomfortable?

To understand what makes it unsafe you need to know the cause and effects. So if you don’t understand how debt effects value then how do you know the risk and what’s leading it to be unsafe? That’s what I’m trying to get into with you. I don’t have an answer for what level of debt would make me uncomfortable. I admittedly don’t have that level of understanding of of how all elements work, yet but I’m working on it. Like I said before my understanding of how financials work within my business and my personal life are very very different from how it works in a national economy. That’s why digging into these questions that I’m asking you is important.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

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Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

Because it is China's intent. So you want to run a deficit forever? What level of debt would be too much in your view? In 2020 we spent 5% on interest expense. What % would be too high in your view? Again, rates are at historic lows but they will rise. If there is ever a decline in demand for US treasuries we are in serious trouble. Right now we remain the safest investment but we have a lot of unrest in America and way too much debt IMO. Borrowing costs will slow growth because we are allocating monies to paying interest vs. other areas of need.

China is making its move

How China Will Take Over The World

The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) is only a few months away from launching the digital version of the Chinese Yuan, making China the first country in the world to have a digital central bank currency.

www.forbes.com

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Dollar Hegemony Is Under Fire From China’s Rapid Growth Recovery

China’s light-speed recovery from the pandemic has reignited the perennial debate about how long the dollar’s 50-year dominance of global markets can persist.

www.bloomberg.com

I think its probably a good thing to look at why China is taking over. Is it because they are spending less and paying off their debt or because they are producing more and investing more all over the world?? Think about it.

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert on the economy. I'm good with numbers but I'll admit when I started digging into this subject a few years ago I found that the more I learned the more ass backwards my thinking was before I studied it. I used the make the same arguments that you're making right now. But the economics of a national economy with its own sovereign currency is a beast to understand and I still have a long way to go. With that said I'll try to address your questions...

Right now I don't see the harm in running deficits especially with China nipping at our heels. If we ran a surplus that would simply burn money out of the economy and weaken our stronghold. The best thing we can do is invest and stimulate others to conduct commerce using US dollars. The dollar is currently a safe investment because it is used everywhere. It is used everywhere because people are borrowing and spending and investing in it. Those who own it will protect it.

Safe until it isn't. You didn't answer me. What level of debt would make you uncomfortable?

To understand what makes it unsafe you need to know the cause and effects. So if you don’t understand how debt effects value then how do you know the risk and what’s leading it to be unsafe? That’s what I’m trying to get into with you. I don’t have an answer for what level of debt would make me uncomfortable. I admittedly don’t have that level of understanding of of how all elements work, yet but I’m working on it. Like I said before my understanding of how financials work within my business and my personal life are very very different from how it works in a national economy. That’s why digging into these questions that I’m asking you is important.

Well we have to pay interest expense and the more debt we accumulate the higher that amount is and if other countries perceive we may default it will send us into a tailspin.

 

[Slade3200]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

Because it is China's intent. So you want to run a deficit forever? What level of debt would be too much in your view? In 2020 we spent 5% on interest expense. What % would be too high in your view? Again, rates are at historic lows but they will rise. If there is ever a decline in demand for US treasuries we are in serious trouble. Right now we remain the safest investment but we have a lot of unrest in America and way too much debt IMO. Borrowing costs will slow growth because we are allocating monies to paying interest vs. other areas of need.

China is making its move

How China Will Take Over The World

The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) is only a few months away from launching the digital version of the Chinese Yuan, making China the first country in the world to have a digital central bank currency.

www.forbes.com

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Dollar Hegemony Is Under Fire From China’s Rapid Growth Recovery

China’s light-speed recovery from the pandemic has reignited the perennial debate about how long the dollar’s 50-year dominance of global markets can persist.

www.bloomberg.com

I think its probably a good thing to look at why China is taking over. Is it because they are spending less and paying off their debt or because they are producing more and investing more all over the world?? Think about it.

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert on the economy. I'm good with numbers but I'll admit when I started digging into this subject a few years ago I found that the more I learned the more ass backwards my thinking was before I studied it. I used the make the same arguments that you're making right now. But the economics of a national economy with its own sovereign currency is a beast to understand and I still have a long way to go. With that said I'll try to address your questions...

Right now I don't see the harm in running deficits especially with China nipping at our heels. If we ran a surplus that would simply burn money out of the economy and weaken our stronghold. The best thing we can do is invest and stimulate others to conduct commerce using US dollars. The dollar is currently a safe investment because it is used everywhere. It is used everywhere because people are borrowing and spending and investing in it. Those who own it will protect it.

Safe until it isn't. You didn't answer me. What level of debt would make you uncomfortable?

To understand what makes it unsafe you need to know the cause and effects. So if you don’t understand how debt effects value then how do you know the risk and what’s leading it to be unsafe? That’s what I’m trying to get into with you. I don’t have an answer for what level of debt would make me uncomfortable. I admittedly don’t have that level of understanding of of how all elements work, yet but I’m working on it. Like I said before my understanding of how financials work within my business and my personal life are very very different from how it works in a national economy. That’s why digging into these questions that I’m asking you is important.

Well we have to pay interest expense and the more debt we accumulate the higher that amount is and if other countries perceive we may default it will send us into a tailspin.

We can’t default, we control our own currency.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

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Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

Because it is China's intent. So you want to run a deficit forever? What level of debt would be too much in your view? In 2020 we spent 5% on interest expense. What % would be too high in your view? Again, rates are at historic lows but they will rise. If there is ever a decline in demand for US treasuries we are in serious trouble. Right now we remain the safest investment but we have a lot of unrest in America and way too much debt IMO. Borrowing costs will slow growth because we are allocating monies to paying interest vs. other areas of need.

China is making its move

How China Will Take Over The World

The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) is only a few months away from launching the digital version of the Chinese Yuan, making China the first country in the world to have a digital central bank currency.

www.forbes.com

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Dollar Hegemony Is Under Fire From China’s Rapid Growth Recovery

China’s light-speed recovery from the pandemic has reignited the perennial debate about how long the dollar’s 50-year dominance of global markets can persist.

www.bloomberg.com

I think its probably a good thing to look at why China is taking over. Is it because they are spending less and paying off their debt or because they are producing more and investing more all over the world?? Think about it.

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert on the economy. I'm good with numbers but I'll admit when I started digging into this subject a few years ago I found that the more I learned the more ass backwards my thinking was before I studied it. I used the make the same arguments that you're making right now. But the economics of a national economy with its own sovereign currency is a beast to understand and I still have a long way to go. With that said I'll try to address your questions...

Right now I don't see the harm in running deficits especially with China nipping at our heels. If we ran a surplus that would simply burn money out of the economy and weaken our stronghold. The best thing we can do is invest and stimulate others to conduct commerce using US dollars. The dollar is currently a safe investment because it is used everywhere. It is used everywhere because people are borrowing and spending and investing in it. Those who own it will protect it.

Safe until it isn't. You didn't answer me. What level of debt would make you uncomfortable?

To understand what makes it unsafe you need to know the cause and effects. So if you don’t understand how debt effects value then how do you know the risk and what’s leading it to be unsafe? That’s what I’m trying to get into with you. I don’t have an answer for what level of debt would make me uncomfortable. I admittedly don’t have that level of understanding of of how all elements work, yet but I’m working on it. Like I said before my understanding of how financials work within my business and my personal life are very very different from how it works in a national economy. That’s why digging into these questions that I’m asking you is important.

Well we have to pay interest expense and the more debt we accumulate the higher that amount is and if other countries perceive we may default it will send us into a tailspin.

We can’t default, we control our own currency.

Other countries buy our treasuries too. You should watch Too Big to Fail on HBO.

 

[initforme]

Such a lie. 1400 is not going to affect anybody seeking work. What a truly false statement.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

ahead, search back in my post about Trumps Covid stimulus

I wouldnt exactly credit Trump with those covid bills. He just wanted to get 2,000 to THE PEOPLE. He kinda had a gun to his head to achieve anything close to that.

They were all DEMOCRAT bills.

 

[Slade3200]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

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www.ceifx.com

Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

Because it is China's intent. So you want to run a deficit forever? What level of debt would be too much in your view? In 2020 we spent 5% on interest expense. What % would be too high in your view? Again, rates are at historic lows but they will rise. If there is ever a decline in demand for US treasuries we are in serious trouble. Right now we remain the safest investment but we have a lot of unrest in America and way too much debt IMO. Borrowing costs will slow growth because we are allocating monies to paying interest vs. other areas of need.

China is making its move

How China Will Take Over The World

The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) is only a few months away from launching the digital version of the Chinese Yuan, making China the first country in the world to have a digital central bank currency.

www.forbes.com

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Dollar Hegemony Is Under Fire From China’s Rapid Growth Recovery

China’s light-speed recovery from the pandemic has reignited the perennial debate about how long the dollar’s 50-year dominance of global markets can persist.

www.bloomberg.com

I think its probably a good thing to look at why China is taking over. Is it because they are spending less and paying off their debt or because they are producing more and investing more all over the world?? Think about it.

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert on the economy. I'm good with numbers but I'll admit when I started digging into this subject a few years ago I found that the more I learned the more ass backwards my thinking was before I studied it. I used the make the same arguments that you're making right now. But the economics of a national economy with its own sovereign currency is a beast to understand and I still have a long way to go. With that said I'll try to address your questions...

Right now I don't see the harm in running deficits especially with China nipping at our heels. If we ran a surplus that would simply burn money out of the economy and weaken our stronghold. The best thing we can do is invest and stimulate others to conduct commerce using US dollars. The dollar is currently a safe investment because it is used everywhere. It is used everywhere because people are borrowing and spending and investing in it. Those who own it will protect it.

Safe until it isn't. You didn't answer me. What level of debt would make you uncomfortable?

To understand what makes it unsafe you need to know the cause and effects. So if you don’t understand how debt effects value then how do you know the risk and what’s leading it to be unsafe? That’s what I’m trying to get into with you. I don’t have an answer for what level of debt would make me uncomfortable. I admittedly don’t have that level of understanding of of how all elements work, yet but I’m working on it. Like I said before my understanding of how financials work within my business and my personal life are very very different from how it works in a national economy. That’s why digging into these questions that I’m asking you is important.

Well we have to pay interest expense and the more debt we accumulate the higher that amount is and if other countries perceive we may default it will send us into a tailspin.

We can’t default, we control our own currency.

Other countries buy our treasuries too. You should watch Too Big to Fail on HBO.

And what does that have to do with debt and the value of the dollar?

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

Because it is China's intent. So you want to run a deficit forever? What level of debt would be too much in your view? In 2020 we spent 5% on interest expense. What % would be too high in your view? Again, rates are at historic lows but they will rise. If there is ever a decline in demand for US treasuries we are in serious trouble. Right now we remain the safest investment but we have a lot of unrest in America and way too much debt IMO. Borrowing costs will slow growth because we are allocating monies to paying interest vs. other areas of need.

China is making its move

How China Will Take Over The World

The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) is only a few months away from launching the digital version of the Chinese Yuan, making China the first country in the world to have a digital central bank currency.

www.forbes.com

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Dollar Hegemony Is Under Fire From China’s Rapid Growth Recovery

China’s light-speed recovery from the pandemic has reignited the perennial debate about how long the dollar’s 50-year dominance of global markets can persist.

www.bloomberg.com

I think its probably a good thing to look at why China is taking over. Is it because they are spending less and paying off their debt or because they are producing more and investing more all over the world?? Think about it.

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert on the economy. I'm good with numbers but I'll admit when I started digging into this subject a few years ago I found that the more I learned the more ass backwards my thinking was before I studied it. I used the make the same arguments that you're making right now. But the economics of a national economy with its own sovereign currency is a beast to understand and I still have a long way to go. With that said I'll try to address your questions...

Right now I don't see the harm in running deficits especially with China nipping at our heels. If we ran a surplus that would simply burn money out of the economy and weaken our stronghold. The best thing we can do is invest and stimulate others to conduct commerce using US dollars. The dollar is currently a safe investment because it is used everywhere. It is used everywhere because people are borrowing and spending and investing in it. Those who own it will protect it.

Safe until it isn't. You didn't answer me. What level of debt would make you uncomfortable?

To understand what makes it unsafe you need to know the cause and effects. So if you don’t understand how debt effects value then how do you know the risk and what’s leading it to be unsafe? That’s what I’m trying to get into with you. I don’t have an answer for what level of debt would make me uncomfortable. I admittedly don’t have that level of understanding of of how all elements work, yet but I’m working on it. Like I said before my understanding of how financials work within my business and my personal life are very very different from how it works in a national economy. That’s why digging into these questions that I’m asking you is important.

Well we have to pay interest expense and the more debt we accumulate the higher that amount is and if other countries perceive we may default it will send us into a tailspin.

We can’t default, we control our own currency.

Other countries buy our treasuries too. You should watch Too Big to Fail on HBO.

And what does that have to do with debt and the value of the dollar?

Watch and you will see.

 

[Slade3200]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

Because it is China's intent. So you want to run a deficit forever? What level of debt would be too much in your view? In 2020 we spent 5% on interest expense. What % would be too high in your view? Again, rates are at historic lows but they will rise. If there is ever a decline in demand for US treasuries we are in serious trouble. Right now we remain the safest investment but we have a lot of unrest in America and way too much debt IMO. Borrowing costs will slow growth because we are allocating monies to paying interest vs. other areas of need.

China is making its move

How China Will Take Over The World

The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) is only a few months away from launching the digital version of the Chinese Yuan, making China the first country in the world to have a digital central bank currency.

www.forbes.com

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Dollar Hegemony Is Under Fire From China’s Rapid Growth Recovery

China’s light-speed recovery from the pandemic has reignited the perennial debate about how long the dollar’s 50-year dominance of global markets can persist.

www.bloomberg.com

I think its probably a good thing to look at why China is taking over. Is it because they are spending less and paying off their debt or because they are producing more and investing more all over the world?? Think about it.

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert on the economy. I'm good with numbers but I'll admit when I started digging into this subject a few years ago I found that the more I learned the more ass backwards my thinking was before I studied it. I used the make the same arguments that you're making right now. But the economics of a national economy with its own sovereign currency is a beast to understand and I still have a long way to go. With that said I'll try to address your questions...

Right now I don't see the harm in running deficits especially with China nipping at our heels. If we ran a surplus that would simply burn money out of the economy and weaken our stronghold. The best thing we can do is invest and stimulate others to conduct commerce using US dollars. The dollar is currently a safe investment because it is used everywhere. It is used everywhere because people are borrowing and spending and investing in it. Those who own it will protect it.

Safe until it isn't. You didn't answer me. What level of debt would make you uncomfortable?

To understand what makes it unsafe you need to know the cause and effects. So if you don’t understand how debt effects value then how do you know the risk and what’s leading it to be unsafe? That’s what I’m trying to get into with you. I don’t have an answer for what level of debt would make me uncomfortable. I admittedly don’t have that level of understanding of of how all elements work, yet but I’m working on it. Like I said before my understanding of how financials work within my business and my personal life are very very different from how it works in a national economy. That’s why digging into these questions that I’m asking you is important.

Well we have to pay interest expense and the more debt we accumulate the higher that amount is and if other countries perceive we may default it will send us into a tailspin.

We can’t default, we control our own currency.

Other countries buy our treasuries too. You should watch Too Big to Fail on HBO.

And what does that have to do with debt and the value of the dollar?

Watch and you will see.

Are you done with this discussion then?

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

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Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

Because it is China's intent. So you want to run a deficit forever? What level of debt would be too much in your view? In 2020 we spent 5% on interest expense. What % would be too high in your view? Again, rates are at historic lows but they will rise. If there is ever a decline in demand for US treasuries we are in serious trouble. Right now we remain the safest investment but we have a lot of unrest in America and way too much debt IMO. Borrowing costs will slow growth because we are allocating monies to paying interest vs. other areas of need.

China is making its move

How China Will Take Over The World

The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) is only a few months away from launching the digital version of the Chinese Yuan, making China the first country in the world to have a digital central bank currency.

www.forbes.com

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Dollar Hegemony Is Under Fire From China’s Rapid Growth Recovery

China’s light-speed recovery from the pandemic has reignited the perennial debate about how long the dollar’s 50-year dominance of global markets can persist.

www.bloomberg.com

I think its probably a good thing to look at why China is taking over. Is it because they are spending less and paying off their debt or because they are producing more and investing more all over the world?? Think about it.

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert on the economy. I'm good with numbers but I'll admit when I started digging into this subject a few years ago I found that the more I learned the more ass backwards my thinking was before I studied it. I used the make the same arguments that you're making right now. But the economics of a national economy with its own sovereign currency is a beast to understand and I still have a long way to go. With that said I'll try to address your questions...

Right now I don't see the harm in running deficits especially with China nipping at our heels. If we ran a surplus that would simply burn money out of the economy and weaken our stronghold. The best thing we can do is invest and stimulate others to conduct commerce using US dollars. The dollar is currently a safe investment because it is used everywhere. It is used everywhere because people are borrowing and spending and investing in it. Those who own it will protect it.

Safe until it isn't. You didn't answer me. What level of debt would make you uncomfortable?

To understand what makes it unsafe you need to know the cause and effects. So if you don’t understand how debt effects value then how do you know the risk and what’s leading it to be unsafe? That’s what I’m trying to get into with you. I don’t have an answer for what level of debt would make me uncomfortable. I admittedly don’t have that level of understanding of of how all elements work, yet but I’m working on it. Like I said before my understanding of how financials work within my business and my personal life are very very different from how it works in a national economy. That’s why digging into these questions that I’m asking you is important.

Well we have to pay interest expense and the more debt we accumulate the higher that amount is and if other countries perceive we may default it will send us into a tailspin.

We can’t default, we control our own currency.

Other countries buy our treasuries too. You should watch Too Big to Fail on HBO.

And what does that have to do with debt and the value of the dollar?

Watch and you will see.

Are you done with this discussion then?

Well you admitted that you don’t know much about macro economics and are just stating look at what happened in the past. That’s not a debate or discussion. It’s us yelling over one another. Not overly productive. You seem to believe we can print unlimited $$$ without repercussions. I disagree.

 

[Slade3200]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

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Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

Because it is China's intent. So you want to run a deficit forever? What level of debt would be too much in your view? In 2020 we spent 5% on interest expense. What % would be too high in your view? Again, rates are at historic lows but they will rise. If there is ever a decline in demand for US treasuries we are in serious trouble. Right now we remain the safest investment but we have a lot of unrest in America and way too much debt IMO. Borrowing costs will slow growth because we are allocating monies to paying interest vs. other areas of need.

China is making its move

How China Will Take Over The World

The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) is only a few months away from launching the digital version of the Chinese Yuan, making China the first country in the world to have a digital central bank currency.

www.forbes.com

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Dollar Hegemony Is Under Fire From China’s Rapid Growth Recovery

China’s light-speed recovery from the pandemic has reignited the perennial debate about how long the dollar’s 50-year dominance of global markets can persist.

www.bloomberg.com

I think its probably a good thing to look at why China is taking over. Is it because they are spending less and paying off their debt or because they are producing more and investing more all over the world?? Think about it.

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert on the economy. I'm good with numbers but I'll admit when I started digging into this subject a few years ago I found that the more I learned the more ass backwards my thinking was before I studied it. I used the make the same arguments that you're making right now. But the economics of a national economy with its own sovereign currency is a beast to understand and I still have a long way to go. With that said I'll try to address your questions...

Right now I don't see the harm in running deficits especially with China nipping at our heels. If we ran a surplus that would simply burn money out of the economy and weaken our stronghold. The best thing we can do is invest and stimulate others to conduct commerce using US dollars. The dollar is currently a safe investment because it is used everywhere. It is used everywhere because people are borrowing and spending and investing in it. Those who own it will protect it.

Safe until it isn't. You didn't answer me. What level of debt would make you uncomfortable?

To understand what makes it unsafe you need to know the cause and effects. So if you don’t understand how debt effects value then how do you know the risk and what’s leading it to be unsafe? That’s what I’m trying to get into with you. I don’t have an answer for what level of debt would make me uncomfortable. I admittedly don’t have that level of understanding of of how all elements work, yet but I’m working on it. Like I said before my understanding of how financials work within my business and my personal life are very very different from how it works in a national economy. That’s why digging into these questions that I’m asking you is important.

Well we have to pay interest expense and the more debt we accumulate the higher that amount is and if other countries perceive we may default it will send us into a tailspin.

We can’t default, we control our own currency.

Other countries buy our treasuries too. You should watch Too Big to Fail on HBO.

And what does that have to do with debt and the value of the dollar?

Watch and you will see.

Are you done with this discussion then?

Well you admitted that you don’t know much about macro economics and are just stating look at what happened in the past. That’s not a debate or discussion. It’s us yelling over one another. Not overly productive. You seem to believe we can print unlimited $$$ without repercussions. I disagree.

Ok, sorry for wasting your time. Sounds like you got it all figured out.

 

[Justin Richardson]

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell on Wednesday explained that he's opposing the $1,400 stimulus checks in President Joe Biden's $1.9 trillion economic relief bill due to concerns that the payments could stop Americans from working.

Once you start depending on the Government, that is exactly what you get. You get handouts and dependency from it. Instead of going out and working, you rely on the Government for a bailout.
Now, I can understand if you are disabled (such as I am - work related), then it will get you through. At least for a few weeks, if you're lucky. But I still work, but part-time. And at another job. I don't depend on the Government for a bailout.

Now, everyone's results may vary. Not everyone is able to go out and work for various reasons. But the stimulus will only stagnate others (who are capable and able-bodied) to work, because they feel they are getting a free handout. Who doesn't want free money?

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

Because it is China's intent. So you want to run a deficit forever? What level of debt would be too much in your view? In 2020 we spent 5% on interest expense. What % would be too high in your view? Again, rates are at historic lows but they will rise. If there is ever a decline in demand for US treasuries we are in serious trouble. Right now we remain the safest investment but we have a lot of unrest in America and way too much debt IMO. Borrowing costs will slow growth because we are allocating monies to paying interest vs. other areas of need.

China is making its move

How China Will Take Over The World

The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) is only a few months away from launching the digital version of the Chinese Yuan, making China the first country in the world to have a digital central bank currency.

www.forbes.com

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Dollar Hegemony Is Under Fire From China’s Rapid Growth Recovery

China’s light-speed recovery from the pandemic has reignited the perennial debate about how long the dollar’s 50-year dominance of global markets can persist.

www.bloomberg.com

I think its probably a good thing to look at why China is taking over. Is it because they are spending less and paying off their debt or because they are producing more and investing more all over the world?? Think about it.

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert on the economy. I'm good with numbers but I'll admit when I started digging into this subject a few years ago I found that the more I learned the more ass backwards my thinking was before I studied it. I used the make the same arguments that you're making right now. But the economics of a national economy with its own sovereign currency is a beast to understand and I still have a long way to go. With that said I'll try to address your questions...

Right now I don't see the harm in running deficits especially with China nipping at our heels. If we ran a surplus that would simply burn money out of the economy and weaken our stronghold. The best thing we can do is invest and stimulate others to conduct commerce using US dollars. The dollar is currently a safe investment because it is used everywhere. It is used everywhere because people are borrowing and spending and investing in it. Those who own it will protect it.

Safe until it isn't. You didn't answer me. What level of debt would make you uncomfortable?

To understand what makes it unsafe you need to know the cause and effects. So if you don’t understand how debt effects value then how do you know the risk and what’s leading it to be unsafe? That’s what I’m trying to get into with you. I don’t have an answer for what level of debt would make me uncomfortable. I admittedly don’t have that level of understanding of of how all elements work, yet but I’m working on it. Like I said before my understanding of how financials work within my business and my personal life are very very different from how it works in a national economy. That’s why digging into these questions that I’m asking you is important.

Well we have to pay interest expense and the more debt we accumulate the higher that amount is and if other countries perceive we may default it will send us into a tailspin.

We can’t default, we control our own currency.

Other countries buy our treasuries too. You should watch Too Big to Fail on HBO.

And what does that have to do with debt and the value of the dollar?

Watch and you will see.

Are you done with this discussion then?

Well you admitted that you don’t know much about macro economics and are just stating look at what happened in the past. That’s not a debate or discussion. It’s us yelling over one another. Not overly productive. You seem to believe we can print unlimited $$$ without repercussions. I disagree.

Ok, sorry for wasting your time. Sounds like you got it all figured out.

No. I do know that history is not always a great way to gauge the future. It can surprise you. If I were you, I would read up on China and how it’s trying to overtake the USD as the global currency and I would watch Too Big to Fail.

 

[Slade3200]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

Because it is China's intent. So you want to run a deficit forever? What level of debt would be too much in your view? In 2020 we spent 5% on interest expense. What % would be too high in your view? Again, rates are at historic lows but they will rise. If there is ever a decline in demand for US treasuries we are in serious trouble. Right now we remain the safest investment but we have a lot of unrest in America and way too much debt IMO. Borrowing costs will slow growth because we are allocating monies to paying interest vs. other areas of need.

China is making its move

How China Will Take Over The World

The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) is only a few months away from launching the digital version of the Chinese Yuan, making China the first country in the world to have a digital central bank currency.

www.forbes.com

Content Unavailable

www.ceifx.com

Dollar Hegemony Is Under Fire From China’s Rapid Growth Recovery

China’s light-speed recovery from the pandemic has reignited the perennial debate about how long the dollar’s 50-year dominance of global markets can persist.

www.bloomberg.com

I think its probably a good thing to look at why China is taking over. Is it because they are spending less and paying off their debt or because they are producing more and investing more all over the world?? Think about it.

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert on the economy. I'm good with numbers but I'll admit when I started digging into this subject a few years ago I found that the more I learned the more ass backwards my thinking was before I studied it. I used the make the same arguments that you're making right now. But the economics of a national economy with its own sovereign currency is a beast to understand and I still have a long way to go. With that said I'll try to address your questions...

Right now I don't see the harm in running deficits especially with China nipping at our heels. If we ran a surplus that would simply burn money out of the economy and weaken our stronghold. The best thing we can do is invest and stimulate others to conduct commerce using US dollars. The dollar is currently a safe investment because it is used everywhere. It is used everywhere because people are borrowing and spending and investing in it. Those who own it will protect it.

Safe until it isn't. You didn't answer me. What level of debt would make you uncomfortable?

To understand what makes it unsafe you need to know the cause and effects. So if you don’t understand how debt effects value then how do you know the risk and what’s leading it to be unsafe? That’s what I’m trying to get into with you. I don’t have an answer for what level of debt would make me uncomfortable. I admittedly don’t have that level of understanding of of how all elements work, yet but I’m working on it. Like I said before my understanding of how financials work within my business and my personal life are very very different from how it works in a national economy. That’s why digging into these questions that I’m asking you is important.

Well we have to pay interest expense and the more debt we accumulate the higher that amount is and if other countries perceive we may default it will send us into a tailspin.

We can’t default, we control our own currency.

Other countries buy our treasuries too. You should watch Too Big to Fail on HBO.

And what does that have to do with debt and the value of the dollar?

Watch and you will see.

Are you done with this discussion then?

Well you admitted that you don’t know much about macro economics and are just stating look at what happened in the past. That’s not a debate or discussion. It’s us yelling over one another. Not overly productive. You seem to believe we can print unlimited $$$ without repercussions. I disagree.

Ok, sorry for wasting your time. Sounds like you got it all figured out.

No. I do know that history is not always a great way to gauge the future. It can surprise you. If I were you, I would read up on China and how it’s trying to overtake the USD as the global currency and I would watch Too Big to Fail.

I’ll check out the flick. I’m also not saying that new things can’t occur but I don’t think it’s a valid excuse to not consider my questions. You should think about them and do your own research

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

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Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

Because it is China's intent. So you want to run a deficit forever? What level of debt would be too much in your view? In 2020 we spent 5% on interest expense. What % would be too high in your view? Again, rates are at historic lows but they will rise. If there is ever a decline in demand for US treasuries we are in serious trouble. Right now we remain the safest investment but we have a lot of unrest in America and way too much debt IMO. Borrowing costs will slow growth because we are allocating monies to paying interest vs. other areas of need.

China is making its move

How China Will Take Over The World

The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) is only a few months away from launching the digital version of the Chinese Yuan, making China the first country in the world to have a digital central bank currency.

www.forbes.com

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Dollar Hegemony Is Under Fire From China’s Rapid Growth Recovery

China’s light-speed recovery from the pandemic has reignited the perennial debate about how long the dollar’s 50-year dominance of global markets can persist.

www.bloomberg.com

I think its probably a good thing to look at why China is taking over. Is it because they are spending less and paying off their debt or because they are producing more and investing more all over the world?? Think about it.

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert on the economy. I'm good with numbers but I'll admit when I started digging into this subject a few years ago I found that the more I learned the more ass backwards my thinking was before I studied it. I used the make the same arguments that you're making right now. But the economics of a national economy with its own sovereign currency is a beast to understand and I still have a long way to go. With that said I'll try to address your questions...

Right now I don't see the harm in running deficits especially with China nipping at our heels. If we ran a surplus that would simply burn money out of the economy and weaken our stronghold. The best thing we can do is invest and stimulate others to conduct commerce using US dollars. The dollar is currently a safe investment because it is used everywhere. It is used everywhere because people are borrowing and spending and investing in it. Those who own it will protect it.

Safe until it isn't. You didn't answer me. What level of debt would make you uncomfortable?

To understand what makes it unsafe you need to know the cause and effects. So if you don’t understand how debt effects value then how do you know the risk and what’s leading it to be unsafe? That’s what I’m trying to get into with you. I don’t have an answer for what level of debt would make me uncomfortable. I admittedly don’t have that level of understanding of of how all elements work, yet but I’m working on it. Like I said before my understanding of how financials work within my business and my personal life are very very different from how it works in a national economy. That’s why digging into these questions that I’m asking you is important.

Well we have to pay interest expense and the more debt we accumulate the higher that amount is and if other countries perceive we may default it will send us into a tailspin.

We can’t default, we control our own currency.

Other countries buy our treasuries too. You should watch Too Big to Fail on HBO.

And what does that have to do with debt and the value of the dollar?

Watch and you will see.

Are you done with this discussion then?

Well you admitted that you don’t know much about macro economics and are just stating look at what happened in the past. That’s not a debate or discussion. It’s us yelling over one another. Not overly productive. You seem to believe we can print unlimited $$$ without repercussions. I disagree.

Ok, sorry for wasting your time. Sounds like you got it all figured out.

No. I do know that history is not always a great way to gauge the future. It can surprise you. If I were you, I would read up on China and how it’s trying to overtake the USD as the global currency and I would watch Too Big to Fail.

I’ll check out the flick. I’m also not saying that new things can’t occur but I don’t think it’s a valid excuse to not consider my questions. You should think about them and do your own research

I have and to me we are living on the edge.

 

[Slade3200]

It comprises $400 billion

Not so fast lol math on that ?

No no. I’m not doing all the work here. I just showed you the numbers. If you think I’m wrong then show otherwise and prove me wrong but I’m not letting brain dead trolls waste my time. Your turn

You said it comprises to 1,400 .. how many Americans are getting this?

Haha. I’m not doing the work for you. I did my part now you do yours. Make a counter argument and show your math or concede what we both already know. I’m right and you’re wrong

Lol see your dishonest you’re counting Americans disqualified from getting any relief.

Prove it. You’re words don’t mean anything to me. Show your work

I asked you first let’s go boy

And I answered with numbers. Now it’s your turn. I’m not your bitch here to answer all your questions. I made my point and backed it up with math. If you think my math is wrong or numbers are wrong then show why. Stop being lazy, you’re losing this one.

You’re not even aware of that many Americans are excluded from getting Covid payments. Lol

Prove it... your just saying stuff now. I showed my work. You’re just saying shit. Aliens created the vaccine and are paying for the stimulus.... does that mean anything to you?! Because it’s on par with the way you are presenting your arguments

You gave no numbers to the amount of Americans getting checks.. aliens created the vaccine!? Huh

That’s because you skipped your turn Skippy. This is a give take thing. You don’t get to pepper me with question after question and do no work yourself. I gave you the numbers. Your argument was shredded and you look like a fool. Provide a substantial counter argument or retire to your cave. If you give a thoughtful response then I’ll address your next question

“ Comprise” is t math.. comprise right here let’s see them numbers skippy

Why are you arguing about this nonesense instead of just making a real counter argument and proving my number wrong. I think it’s because you’re lazy and you know you can’t do it so you’re distracting. That’s pretty weak

You never gave me numbers you said comprise. Lol

I'm sorry your "high"ness... Here you go

This latest Democratic proposal for $1,400 payments for singles earning up to $75,000 and couples earning up to $150,000 would cost about $422 billion, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation, a nonpartisan arm of Congress that analyzes the costs of different legislation.

So $422B / $1.9T = 22% So I picked up an extra percent... And this is just one simple element of the stimulus. Your argument that only 9% is going towards Covid relief is shattered. It's quite embarrassing that you would even entertain that claim as true let alone stand behind it. Are you capable of thinking for yourself?

How is paying people $1,400 helping with COVID relief? I am not following the logic?

Really? Our economy has been decimated for a year with lay offs and shut downs. You don’t think providing direct checks to low and mid income citizens is providing relief and stimulus for the depression? I certainly do, it’s far front he proclaimed pet project pork that they are claiming comprises 91% of this Bill. what’s your argument that it is not Covid relief?

Every Economist says the economy is going to rebound jobs are coming back there is absolutely no reason to put our children into debt. Especially when 91% is going to foreign countries democrat donors lobbyist and buying votes.

I literally just showed how over 20% is going direct to the people. Not those entities you just named. What’s wrong with you... are you retarded?

So I count 9.83% for COVID...from your site and I am being generous with school lunch and animals

COBRA	8​
Paid leave	0.4​
School lunch	7​
Testing/Tracing	50​
Public Health Workforce	19​
Funeral Expenses	47​
Distribution	10​
Restaurants and Bars	25​
EIDL	15​
PPP	7​
Animal	1​
Total COVID	$ 189
Total Bill	$ 1,927
	9.83%​

Why didn't you include unemployment? Surely you'd acknowledge that people lost their jobs because of COVID. Correct?

They already have unemployment and initially they got an extra $600 per week! I did include it in restaurants and bars as many lost jobs there and in PPP which is there to ensure that companies don't lay people off. Do you know how PPP works? How much more "free money" do people need when the vaccines are here and we are opening up vs. closing down?

I'm pretty conservative when it comes to spending so I do think this bill is way overloaded and lack accountability or responsible execution. However, right now I'm addressing the lie that only 9% has anything to do with COVID. Thats compete BS

My calculations show 9.83%. What did you want to add to it from your link? You saw my math.

Oh I think the majority of the bill has to do with COVID and the 9% thing is a totally ridiculous lie. I highlighted the $ totals in bold that I don't think have to do with COVID. The rest obviously does. You can argue that is too much or not necessary but you can’t say it’s unrelated to Covid

Ways & Means
Provide $1,400-per-person stimulus checks	$422 billion
Extend unemployment programs through August 29 with a $400/week supplement	$246 billion
Expand Child Tax Credit, Child Care Tax Credit, and Earned Income Tax Credit mostly for one year	$143 billion
Provide grants to multi-employer pension plans and change single-employer pension funding rules	$58 billion
Temporarily expand ACA subsidies for two years and subsidize 2020 and 2021 coverage	$45 billion
Extend paid sick leave and employee retention credit	$14 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$8 billion
Repeal rule allowing multinational corporations to calculate their interest expenses including foreign subsidiaries	-$22 billion
Other policies	$9 billion
Oversight & Reform
Provide money to state governments	$195 billion
Provide money to local governments, territories, and tribes	$155 billion
Create paid COVID leave for federal workers and other policies	$0.4 billion
Education & Labor
Provide funding for K-12 education	$129 billion
Provide funding for colleges and universities	$40 billion
Increase the federal minimum wage to $15/hour by 2025	$54 billion
Provide support for child care, grants to child care providers, and Head Start	$40 billion
Subsidize COBRA coverage for laid-off workers*	$10 billion
Extend nutrition assistance in place of school lunch for the duration of the emergency and other food assistance	$7 billion
Human services, labor programs, and other policies*	$11 billion
Energy & Commerce
Increase funding for testing and contract tracing	$50 billion
Increase public health workforce and investments	$19 billion
Fund vaccine distribution, confidence, and supply chains	$16 billion
Increase Medicaid payments to states that newly expand Medicaid under the ACA	$16 billion
Allow states to expand Medicaid coverage for prisoners close to release and for pregnant and postpartum women for 5 years	$9 billion
Remove the cap limiting how much drug manufacturers must rebate to Medicaid for drugs that have increased quickly in price	-$18 billion
Other policies*	$31 billion
Transportation & Infrastructure
Increase funding for the Disaster Relief Fund and cover funeral expenses related to COVID	$47 billion
Provide grants to transit agencies	$28 billion
Provide grants to airports and aviation manufacturers	$11 billion
Provide grants to communities under economic stress	$3 billion
Grants to Amtrak and other transportation-related spending	$2 billion
Financial Services
Provide emergency rental assistance and assist homeless	$30 billion
Provide grants to airlines and contractors to freeze airline layoffs through September	$12 billion
Use Defense Production Act to buy and distribute medical supplies	$10 billion
Provide mortgage payment assistance	$10 billion
Reauthorize and fund the State Small Business Credit Initiative	$9 billion
Small Business
Provide grants to restaurants and bars that lost revenue due to the pandemic	$25 billion
Provide additional EIDL Advance grants of up to $10,000 per business	$15 billion
Allow more PPP loans and expand eligibility to certain non-profit and digital media companies	$7 billion
Other policies	$3 billion
Veterans’ Affairs
Provide funding for health care services, facilities, and copays for veterans	$16 billion
Fund job training assistance programs for veterans and other VA administrative costs	$1 billion
Agriculture
Increase nutrition assistance	$6 billion
Pay off loans and other programs for socially disadvantaged farmers	$5 billion
Purchase and distribute food to needy individuals	$4 billion
Testing and monitoring for COVID in rural communities and among animal populations	$1 billion
Foreign Affairs (no legislation reported yet)	$10 billion
Natural Resources (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Science, Space, & Technology (no legislation reported yet)	$1 billion
Total*	$1.927 trillion

I disagree. So now what? We yell at each other. I have an MBA from NU and an undergrad in business and finance from Duke. I run my own financial consulting company. What are your credentials?

No, I don’t care if you disagree. You’re free to do so. If you want to debate any items I’m happy to do so. Also fine agreeing to disagree.

I think my points and arguments matter more than my credentials but since you asked... I have a mechanical engineering degree from UCSB and have been involved in 6 different start ups from founding level, to VP, to BOD, to consultant level. I currently run and own two small businesses and spend my free time coaching golf for a high school

Then explain how *other helps COVID-19. How is funding underfunded pension fund help with COVID-19? How is issuing checks to those unlikely to be impacted by the virus help cure the virus?

I believe I highlighted the “others” and the pension items amongst those that I thought were not relevant to COVID. Issuing checks is the quickest and cleanest way to get money to those in need and to stimulate an economy that has been depressed because of COVID

But we are determining need based on false criteria. My parents for example. We are measuring income vs wealth.

Not really. We can talk about need and execution and effectiveness if you’d like but this discussion was started on the basic premise that only 9% of the relief Bill had anything to do with COVID. I consider you an intelligent person so I hope we can agree that that point is absurd and the majority of the bill has to do with COvId though I think it safe to say that you disagree with the need for most of it. We on the same page with that?

No we are not. They used COVID as an excuse to pass pork IMO. $200bn should have been enough. I believe in free markets so cutting checks to people is against my fundamental beliefs. I could Almost tolerate it if it were for those in the restaurant, fitness, hospitality, airline industries but the way they did it was stupid and inefficient. They used COVID as an excuse to issue checks to garner future votes IMO.

Well I imagine mandated shut downs would be against you’re free market beliefs as well and since those happened and it impacted our entire nation then I’d think you’d understand and support the need to rectify and help support some of the damage done

Right if you shut down you may improve health but you certainly weaken the earning potential of businesses and persons so it needs to be a balancing act. But the Govt must not interfere. It should be up to the individual. PPP loans have gone out of control and the criteria was so basic that many businesses that didn’t need the money still got it. Pretty sad and short sighted. I hate that program. I hate all bail outs.

I’ll agree with you that the government is painfully horrible at executing pretty much everything except for military and emergency services. They waste and poorly plan and have no accountability. That’s a different conversation though. I could go all day about how bad government is at things. But the fact is they are playing with play money and it is in the interest of our economic success to get people healthy, back to school, back to work, and then out there spending money. Currency needs to circulate. Giving your dad a check isn’t that bad as long as he spends it. That shit gets taxed a few times and it’s right back in the the govs pocket. Cam you imagine how they would execute a plan that was more picky on qualifying people who were actually impacted to a point where they were really impacted and really need the money? Which is a ton of people BTW... it would be a disaster and take a decade for them to figure out. Speed is key here

Speed = carelessness. I do not like but have to live with it. To me it's the name. If they called it the economic recovery plan I d have less issue with it but to call it a COVID plan is a lie. And it was 100% partisan. Prior bills, even under Trump and that idiot Bush were bi partisan. There is something rotten in Washington.

Everything is partisan now. Covid is the cause for the need for this bill and the majority of it funds things effected by Covid. Again, we cam debate the need and effectiveness of the details and there’s damn sure much waste in it not it certainly is not 91% pork

It’s around 90% not COVID related IMO. At least not directly. I stand by my math.

how can your opinion be so skewed? Do you really not think employment was effected by Covid. We went from 3% to 10% unemployment. 10% of the Bill funds unemployment benefits. What about childcare?? Schools shut down, people were laid off. A large chunk funds schools and child care. How in the world do you not see these things as related to COVID?!

Yes and that should not have happened. I dislike rescue plans. My 13 yr old works part time for a day care, pre school. Never shut down. So that’s a fallacy. Again, don’t want financial hardships don’t shut down or else live with the consequences. I again dislike rescue packages. Govt should not be involved.

It’s not a fallacy. What’s happening in your part of the word does not mean that’s what it’s like everywhere. The schools in my community are still shut down. Unless you pay $30k a year for private then you can go back.

so the governments did shut down in many places and businesses were impacted. My sports apparel biz didn’t get one order in 3 months. I was down 80% in 2020. I was ok with savings and other revenue sources. Didn’t take a dime from the gov but I can absolutely understand how many many many others are hurting because of what COVID did to the economy. It’s absolutely the governments responsibility to stimulate and manage this situation to help people out. Otherwise we are looking at a decade of depression. Why are you so opposed to it? Is it the national debt you’re so worried About that you don’t want to help our citizens out of a hole?

So you built a balance sheet and did OK. That’s how it should be. Govt should not bail you out. Next time vote for people who are more pro business. Instead we get fake money bail outs and lower the value of the dollar, precisely what China wants btw. I believe in free markets and no rescue plans.

How much have past bail outs lowered the value of the dollar? Is that your primary concern about government spending, the value of the dollar?

Yes. Primary concern. China is trying to overtake the $ as the world currency and the more we print the more we devalue. This was unnecessary. Economy was recovering, vaccines are here. This was to garner votes. Plain and simple in my view.

Ok, well lets dive into that a bit... Have you compared the strength of the dollar in the mid 2000s to the strength in the late 2010's after we printed a spent a shit ton under Obama for his stimulus?

How close was China to us in 2k vs now? Have you asked that?

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Yes, that is a great question, China is getting closer but not because the value of our dollar got devalued from government spending. I asked if you compared the dollar index of the Bush era vs the Obama era... go back to 80's vs 90's as well. If this is your primary concern then I'd think that understanding the causes and effects would be key for you. Do you think spending and debt is having a direct and impactful effect of devaluing the dollar based on historical data?

Historical Chart of Dollar Index:
View attachment 465877

If not for China I would be somewhat agnostic. But China is trying to take over as the world currency and if it does it will be very bad for our economy. They are a major threat and control the majority of manufacturing. Plus it is just bad practice to bail out companies. I always Tel my clients to build a balance sheet for rainy days. But why bother if the Govt will always come to your rescue? Many cities pension plans are underfunded and the cure? Print more money. It’s a terrible practice in my view.

Ok, I understand, I used to and still somewhat do feel the same way, however after diving into some of the questions that I've been asking you my thinking is evolving. Care to address the things I've been asking you?

#1) I don't want to compare today to 20 years ago as China is nipping at our heels and wasn't back then. So I addressed that.

#2) I think when we devalue money by just printing it we are not holding citizens accountable. Is the next step college debt forgiveness? I think personal and corporate responsibility are essential. Companies must build balance sheets to survive downturns.

#3) At some point the debt will have to be paid back or written off and it is not like we have a balanced budget. $21Trn, don't know where I got $10 from btw is revenue not profit, why? We don't have profit. Being insolvent is not a good place to be for a person, company or country.

#4) I hate how we arbitrarily send checks. If you are worried about people then extend unemployment but paying $600 per week was insane. People earned more staying home (not all but many). I am OK extending unemployment but not issuing $1,400 to those who don't even need it. How is that remotely logical?

What other questions do you have?

I appreciate the direct answers but I think you are avoiding drilling in on the roots of your concerns.... If you want to understand cause and effect of how spending money effects the value of the dollar then looking at history is very useful. You are claiming that printing money devalues the dollar. History is not showing that so can you provide your reasoning for saying thats what's happening and explain why the numbers don't support that claim?

We don't have profit because we deficit spend which some economists think is the proper way to manage a growing economy.

History yes, but we also didn't have a plague and people weren't prepared. You don't see China as a threat to the US and the $? IMF already uses the yuan as currency. Because its a Global Plague, people still see the $ as safest but we'll see what happens once the plague is put down. Too much debt is bad, especially when we cannot balance the budget and just keep adding to it.

Yes I see China as a threat but you are pointing to a factor that doesn't seem to exist or effect the situation with China. You are worried that spending devalues the dollar and helps Chinas position. But history isn't showing that spending devalues the dollar. Stagnation devalues the dollar. This is what I'm trying to drill down on.

Too much debt is bad... Why? what examples can you show where the debt has effected the value of the dollar or our position as a world superpower?

Because we have to pay it back and interest expense becomes a burden as rates rise, meaning we cannot allocate those monies elsewhere and hence our deficit remains. Again, you're looking at the past but we are living in the present that has deviated from the past on many occasions. The world is vastly different now. So if China overtakes us, what will we say? History never showed us it could do it?!?! What happened? I mean, that is crazy, right?

This economic system of ours (fiat) has been used since the 1800's. China has been using it for over 1000 years. So yes looking at how printing and borrowing has effected the value of currency is very relevant. If you can't find an example of how the two effect each other in our history then perhaps the premise of your argument is incorrect. Also when has paying back the debt raised rates? It seems like the opposite has happened. Rates are at an all time low... This is because earning interest has become replaced by the promotion of spending and investment. The focus as been on the flow of currency which is key to a strong economy and strong currency. The more thats out there the bigger the potential output. The output is dependent on transactions and flow. Its different than how you manage your businesses budget and debt. You get that right?

Rates will rise once the plague is behind us and we have to pay interest expense you keep avoiding that. Interest expense will become a much larger % of our budget and then how are we ever to turn a surplus. A QB never won 7 rings before. It happened. If our currency is no longer the global currency we have major issues. History is just that. Doesn’t always predict the future.

Why do you want to turn a surplus?

We are talking about cause and effect. You are saying that certain actions lead to specific results but you can't show any examples of it happening. Perhaps you can explain the theory of why you think it will happen then

Because it is China's intent. So you want to run a deficit forever? What level of debt would be too much in your view? In 2020 we spent 5% on interest expense. What % would be too high in your view? Again, rates are at historic lows but they will rise. If there is ever a decline in demand for US treasuries we are in serious trouble. Right now we remain the safest investment but we have a lot of unrest in America and way too much debt IMO. Borrowing costs will slow growth because we are allocating monies to paying interest vs. other areas of need.

China is making its move

How China Will Take Over The World

The People’s Bank of China (PBOC) is only a few months away from launching the digital version of the Chinese Yuan, making China the first country in the world to have a digital central bank currency.

www.forbes.com

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www.ceifx.com

Dollar Hegemony Is Under Fire From China’s Rapid Growth Recovery

China’s light-speed recovery from the pandemic has reignited the perennial debate about how long the dollar’s 50-year dominance of global markets can persist.

www.bloomberg.com

I think its probably a good thing to look at why China is taking over. Is it because they are spending less and paying off their debt or because they are producing more and investing more all over the world?? Think about it.

I'll be honest, I'm not an expert on the economy. I'm good with numbers but I'll admit when I started digging into this subject a few years ago I found that the more I learned the more ass backwards my thinking was before I studied it. I used the make the same arguments that you're making right now. But the economics of a national economy with its own sovereign currency is a beast to understand and I still have a long way to go. With that said I'll try to address your questions...

Right now I don't see the harm in running deficits especially with China nipping at our heels. If we ran a surplus that would simply burn money out of the economy and weaken our stronghold. The best thing we can do is invest and stimulate others to conduct commerce using US dollars. The dollar is currently a safe investment because it is used everywhere. It is used everywhere because people are borrowing and spending and investing in it. Those who own it will protect it.

Safe until it isn't. You didn't answer me. What level of debt would make you uncomfortable?

To understand what makes it unsafe you need to know the cause and effects. So if you don’t understand how debt effects value then how do you know the risk and what’s leading it to be unsafe? That’s what I’m trying to get into with you. I don’t have an answer for what level of debt would make me uncomfortable. I admittedly don’t have that level of understanding of of how all elements work, yet but I’m working on it. Like I said before my understanding of how financials work within my business and my personal life are very very different from how it works in a national economy. That’s why digging into these questions that I’m asking you is important.

Well we have to pay interest expense and the more debt we accumulate the higher that amount is and if other countries perceive we may default it will send us into a tailspin.

We can’t default, we control our own currency.

Other countries buy our treasuries too. You should watch Too Big to Fail on HBO.

And what does that have to do with debt and the value of the dollar?

Watch and you will see.

Are you done with this discussion then?

Well you admitted that you don’t know much about macro economics and are just stating look at what happened in the past. That’s not a debate or discussion. It’s us yelling over one another. Not overly productive. You seem to believe we can print unlimited $$$ without repercussions. I disagree.

Ok, sorry for wasting your time. Sounds like you got it all figured out.

No. I do know that history is not always a great way to gauge the future. It can surprise you. If I were you, I would read up on China and how it’s trying to overtake the USD as the global currency and I would watch Too Big to Fail.

I’ll check out the flick. I’m also not saying that new things can’t occur but I don’t think it’s a valid excuse to not consider my questions. You should think about them and do your own research

I have and to me we are living on the edge.

If you had it figure out you would have addressed my questions but you avoided and dismissed them which is telling. I don’t think you understand how debt effects the value of the dollar and I don’t think you understand how deficit spending works in the worlds largest economy. I hope you do some research and the next conversation we have about this can be more fruitful