The need to make churches pay tax

[Votto]

They have to do it as part of their exemption. They are not exempt from the paperwork.

NO business should have any special exemption. A nonprofit can carry its revenue from one year to another therefore they make a profit.

SO get rid of the nonprofit exemption completely and businesses that want to be non profit can show ZERO profit every year on their tax returns and not carry large sums of money from year to year tax free.

All of this just to justify your butturt over religion...

What a wanker you are.

IDGAF about you or your god.

The fact is that passing laws that give religion special treatment is a violation of the first amendment.
And whether you want to believe it or not charities are big business and should be treated as such

No special treatment, they are treated like any other not for profit, except maybe easier to prove it.

And if you want to gun after not for profits as a whole, advocate tightening the laws on them.

I already said there should be no special exemptions for any business.

If you want to be nonprofit there is no need for any laws outlining special treatment all you have to do is show ZERO profit every year on your returns and voila you are a nonprofit.

But all of these "charities" make money.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Not antireligious at all you can believe whatever you want and I can think it's stupid.

BUT that does not change the fact that by making laws that favor religions and giving them special tax treatment violates the first amendment

How does it violate the 1st if it applies to all religions?

How does it violate the 1st if the same things are granted to non-religious non-profits?

You have an axe to grind, stop trying to hide it. Again, very progressive of you.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

See that bold part?

The special tax treatment for religion is a law that respects establishments of religion by giving them special treatment

So Sharia law is allowed?

Again there is nothing in the Constitution that states the church and state must be separate.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

But then again if congress passes a law that is based on a particular religion that that is also a violation of the first amendment

So then Sharia Law should be allowed in the US. Then why isn't it? Why are there laws outlawing some Sharia practises like cutting off a hand for thievery?

Look up the 8th amendment

 

[Skull Pilot]

NO business should have any special exemption. A nonprofit can carry its revenue from one year to another therefore they make a profit.

SO get rid of the nonprofit exemption completely and businesses that want to be non profit can show ZERO profit every year on their tax returns and not carry large sums of money from year to year tax free.

All of this just to justify your butturt over religion...

What a wanker you are.

IDGAF about you or your god.

The fact is that passing laws that give religion special treatment is a violation of the first amendment.
And whether you want to believe it or not charities are big business and should be treated as such

No special treatment, they are treated like any other not for profit, except maybe easier to prove it.

And if you want to gun after not for profits as a whole, advocate tightening the laws on them.

I already said there should be no special exemptions for any business.

If you want to be nonprofit there is no need for any laws outlining special treatment all you have to do is show ZERO profit every year on your returns and voila you are a nonprofit.

But all of these "charities" make money.

Exactly my point which is why the special tax status should be removed. If you want to run a non profit then all you have to do is make sure your annual revenue minus expenses, including taxes, is zero

 

[dblack]

What does that have to do with anything?

Again, no it's not. And I don't appreciate the completely unfounded accusation. In my case, it's defense of religious liberty. I asked before - did you read the Huckabee article? He makes the point well.

And you ignore my points that imposing taxes on them would result in the end of many Churches in large urban areas, due to the excessive value of the properties they are on, some for centuries.

I'm not ignoring you. I'm asking you, why do they deserve special perks?

Huckabee can have his opinion, and it's wrong. He's buying into the "we will give you freedom if you pay taxes" bullshit.

Just repeal the Johnson Amendment. Done and Done.

Not really. The Johnson Amendment is just one example of how the tax-exempt status can be used to control religion. It's done more fundamentally at the level of deciding which religions get the perk in the first place. How would you repeal that?

They are getting the same perks any other Non-profit does. Nothing special except for maybe less paperwork.

All they get is the designation as a not for profit, like all other not for profits.

Then why is it needed?

why is taxing them needed?

See all my other posts in this threads. Religious freedom, equal rights, rule of law - all are undermined by government giving out special perks.

You can't have it both ways. If you're saying the tax exempt status is trivial, just a difference in paperwork, then the debate hardly matters. But you've said elsewhere that some religions would go out of business without it. Which is it? And if government is the only thing propping up certain religions, how does that not violate the first amendment?

 

[Skull Pilot]

And? That's still government deciding what qualifies as a religion, deciding who gets the special perks and who doesn't. Equal rights is far clearer.

and accomplishes your un-stated task of fucking over religion...

How progressive of you.

Back on that again, huh? Did you read the article about Huckabee's position? He's right.

Let me ask you this - why the exemption? Other than just currying favor with organized religion, what principled reason is there to exempt certain religious organizations from laws that everyone else must follow?

Because they could be construed as impacting free exercise.

No moreso than any tax impacts freedom.

They are just another non profit, they just have to do less paperwork to prove it.

Why? Why should they have to do less paperwork to prove it?

Why not? The only reason people like you and Skull single them out is your antipathy towards religion. So basically you act like progressives in this case, and use government to do your dirty work.

Look you can pray all you want wherever you want but by giving religion a pass on taxes you are forcing your religion on everyone else because we have to pay for them to receive all the services that the taxes from which they are exempt are supposed to pay for.

 

[Skull Pilot]

They can still threaten to declare that a given religion isn't "really" a religion. That it's a business or somesuch.

Equal rights are the only way to avoid this kind of state manipulation.

That's what we have courts for.

And? That's still government deciding what qualifies as a religion, deciding who gets the special perks and who doesn't. Equal rights is far clearer.

and accomplishes your un-stated task of fucking over religion...

How progressive of you.

Back on that again, huh? Did you read the article about Huckabee's position? He's right.

Let me ask you this - why the exemption? Other than just currying favor with organized religion, what principled reason is there to exempt certain religious organizations from laws that everyone else must follow?

Because they could be construed as impacting free exercise.

The individuals pay taxes, just like in non profit orgs.

They are just another non profit, they just have to do less paperwork to prove it.

FYI you do not need a church or tax exempt property to practice religion

Where in the bible does it say you have to pray in a million dollar church on land that is exempt from taxes?

 

[martybegan]

They are getting the same perks any other Non-profit does. Nothing special except for maybe less paperwork.

All they get is the designation as a not for profit, like all other not for profits.

Then why is it needed?

why is taxing them needed?

Because they use all the same government services everyone else does.

And as individuals even Priests pay income taxes.

This is about taxing of the structures, which as non profits we as a society have decided not to tax them.

So what?

The legal entity of any church is no different that any other business and I think you'll find that was we evolve away from superstition that religion will lose it's preferred status that is a violation of the first amendment

Then remove it from the amendment.

Until then stop trying to use government for your own petty personal grudges like progressive do.

JoeB is not a role model.

 

[martybegan]

Any investments they do into for profit enterprises are more than likely treated as such.

No, they do not pay taxes on for profit enterprises in the US.

Canada and Great Britain yes. We need to follow their lead immediately.

Should The Mormon Church Pay Taxes? | HuffPost

So the stores in that mall don't pay taxes on profits?

Bull.

 

[dblack]

The Constitution does not say anything about the separation of church and state it says

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Yea it was in Jefferson letters and latter ruled constitutional ..

The Jefferson letters are NOT the Constitution

Making laws that give religion special treatment violates the first amendment

Once again the courts said otherwise..

Read the constitution and tell me where anything about separation of church and state is mentioned.

The fact is that passing a law that gives churches preferred tax status is indeed in violation of the first amendment

I think that the state rather enjoys giving perks to religious institutions, just to have some sway over them.

Exactly. But like many government policies, the sales pitch doesn't always align with the intended usage. In the case of the tax exemption for churches, it was proposed and supported with the nominal intent of "promoting religion". That in itself violates the First, but as we've seen, a government with the power to promote religion can use that power to demote religion. That's what Huckabee was trying to get across. But few can see past the end of their nose.

 

[martybegan]

They have to do it as part of their exemption. They are not exempt from the paperwork.

NO business should have any special exemption. A nonprofit can carry its revenue from one year to another therefore they make a profit.

SO get rid of the nonprofit exemption completely and businesses that want to be non profit can show ZERO profit every year on their tax returns and not carry large sums of money from year to year tax free.

All of this just to justify your butturt over religion...

What a wanker you are.

IDGAF about you or your god.

The fact is that passing laws that give religion special treatment is a violation of the first amendment.
And whether you want to believe it or not charities are big business and should be treated as such

No special treatment, they are treated like any other not for profit, except maybe easier to prove it.

And if you want to gun after not for profits as a whole, advocate tightening the laws on them.

I already said there should be no special exemptions for any business.

If you want to be nonprofit there is no need for any laws outlining special treatment all you have to do is show ZERO profit every year on your returns and voila you are a nonprofit.

No, you become a non-profit by organizing as such and not seeking profit.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Then why is it needed?

why is taxing them needed?

Because they use all the same government services everyone else does.

And as individuals even Priests pay income taxes.

This is about taxing of the structures, which as non profits we as a society have decided not to tax them.

So what?

The legal entity of any church is no different that any other business and I think you'll find that was we evolve away from superstition that religion will lose it's preferred status that is a violation of the first amendment

Then remove it from the amendment.

Until then stop trying to use government for your own petty personal grudges like progressive do.

JoeB is not a role model.

We are already violating the first amendment so we do not have to remove anything from the constitution we simply have to repeal and stop passing laws that favor religious establishments

 

[martybegan]

and accomplishes your un-stated task of fucking over religion...

How progressive of you.

Back on that again, huh? Did you read the article about Huckabee's position? He's right.

Let me ask you this - why the exemption? Other than just currying favor with organized religion, what principled reason is there to exempt certain religious organizations from laws that everyone else must follow?

Because they could be construed as impacting free exercise.

No moreso than any tax impacts freedom.

They are just another non profit, they just have to do less paperwork to prove it.

Why? Why should they have to do less paperwork to prove it?

Why not? The only reason people like you and Skull single them out is your antipathy towards religion. So basically you act like progressives in this case, and use government to do your dirty work.

Look you can pray all you want wherever you want but by giving religion a pass on taxes you are forcing your religion on everyone else because we have to pay for them to receive all the services that the taxes from which they are exempt are supposed to pay for.

There are those progressive JoeB like arguments again. And the individuals do pay taxes on their incomes, and on any items they purchase not related to their church work.

 

[martybegan]

That's what we have courts for.

And? That's still government deciding what qualifies as a religion, deciding who gets the special perks and who doesn't. Equal rights is far clearer.

and accomplishes your un-stated task of fucking over religion...

How progressive of you.

Back on that again, huh? Did you read the article about Huckabee's position? He's right.

Let me ask you this - why the exemption? Other than just currying favor with organized religion, what principled reason is there to exempt certain religious organizations from laws that everyone else must follow?

Because they could be construed as impacting free exercise.

The individuals pay taxes, just like in non profit orgs.

They are just another non profit, they just have to do less paperwork to prove it.

FYI you do not need a church or tax exempt property to practice religion

Where in the bible does it say you have to pray in a million dollar church on land that is exempt from taxes?

Bible has nothing to do with it. Society has decided to not tax not for profits when they do not for profit work.

 

[Skull Pilot]

NO business should have any special exemption. A nonprofit can carry its revenue from one year to another therefore they make a profit.

SO get rid of the nonprofit exemption completely and businesses that want to be non profit can show ZERO profit every year on their tax returns and not carry large sums of money from year to year tax free.

All of this just to justify your butturt over religion...

What a wanker you are.

IDGAF about you or your god.

The fact is that passing laws that give religion special treatment is a violation of the first amendment.
And whether you want to believe it or not charities are big business and should be treated as such

No special treatment, they are treated like any other not for profit, except maybe easier to prove it.

And if you want to gun after not for profits as a whole, advocate tightening the laws on them.

I already said there should be no special exemptions for any business.

If you want to be nonprofit there is no need for any laws outlining special treatment all you have to do is show ZERO profit every year on your returns and voila you are a nonprofit.

No, you become a non-profit by organizing as such and not seeking profit.

Which is the made up definition in the tax laws passed that favor religions.

Nonprofit means you show ZERO profit.

So to run a nonprofit all you have to do is show zero profit. There is no need for any special tax status or paperwork etc.

 

[martybegan]

why is taxing them needed?

Because they use all the same government services everyone else does.

And as individuals even Priests pay income taxes.

This is about taxing of the structures, which as non profits we as a society have decided not to tax them.

So what?

The legal entity of any church is no different that any other business and I think you'll find that was we evolve away from superstition that religion will lose it's preferred status that is a violation of the first amendment

Then remove it from the amendment.

Until then stop trying to use government for your own petty personal grudges like progressive do.

JoeB is not a role model.

We are already violating the first amendment so we do not have to remove anything from the constitution we simply have to repeal and stop passing laws that favor religious establishments

In your wrong opinion, maybe.

Again, your views are clouded by your anti-religious bigotry.

And I am a lapsed Catholic at best.

 

[ding]

esp since they do not endorse the Johnson Amendment but Trump said he repealed it, it may be in the new tax cut , who knows.

Evangelical Faux Churches are popping up everywhere and they serve drinks under the pretense of "Communion". (we have on in our town)

Dan Johnson the Rep who just committed suicide used his home as a tax exempt church, not all were welcome, and they sold beer and drinks under the pretense of Communion, but he didn't quite sell beer, he lied and said it was a donation.

You can read and research the The Pope's Long Con , google it.

Since we can't maintain the division of Church and State, we need to start making churches pay tax, esp those Evan ones on TV.

I hope when the Dems get in and they will, they do this.

Faux preachers have abused this tax free status for far toooo long.

Socialism has always sought to subordinate religion.

 

[Skull Pilot]

And? That's still government deciding what qualifies as a religion, deciding who gets the special perks and who doesn't. Equal rights is far clearer.

and accomplishes your un-stated task of fucking over religion...

How progressive of you.

Back on that again, huh? Did you read the article about Huckabee's position? He's right.

Let me ask you this - why the exemption? Other than just currying favor with organized religion, what principled reason is there to exempt certain religious organizations from laws that everyone else must follow?

Because they could be construed as impacting free exercise.

The individuals pay taxes, just like in non profit orgs.

They are just another non profit, they just have to do less paperwork to prove it.

FYI you do not need a church or tax exempt property to practice religion

Where in the bible does it say you have to pray in a million dollar church on land that is exempt from taxes?

Bible has nothing to do with it. Society has decided to not tax not for profits when they do not for profit work.

But they DO make a profit. Anytime they carry any revenue over to following years that is making a profit.

 

[martybegan]

All of this just to justify your butturt over religion...

What a wanker you are.

IDGAF about you or your god.

The fact is that passing laws that give religion special treatment is a violation of the first amendment.
And whether you want to believe it or not charities are big business and should be treated as such

No special treatment, they are treated like any other not for profit, except maybe easier to prove it.

And if you want to gun after not for profits as a whole, advocate tightening the laws on them.

I already said there should be no special exemptions for any business.

If you want to be nonprofit there is no need for any laws outlining special treatment all you have to do is show ZERO profit every year on your returns and voila you are a nonprofit.

No, you become a non-profit by organizing as such and not seeking profit.

Which is the made up definition in the tax laws passed that favor religions.

Nonprofit means you show ZERO profit.

So to run a nonprofit all you have to do is show zero profit. There is no need for any special tax status or paperwork etc.

Trying to make a "gotcha" moment for any non profit that goes over by a dollar, and saddling them with massive paperwork to prove zero profit is an end run at you trying to punish people you don't like.

I'm gonna start calling you "Joe Blow Jr."

 

[martybegan]

and accomplishes your un-stated task of fucking over religion...

How progressive of you.

Back on that again, huh? Did you read the article about Huckabee's position? He's right.

Let me ask you this - why the exemption? Other than just currying favor with organized religion, what principled reason is there to exempt certain religious organizations from laws that everyone else must follow?

Because they could be construed as impacting free exercise.

The individuals pay taxes, just like in non profit orgs.

They are just another non profit, they just have to do less paperwork to prove it.

FYI you do not need a church or tax exempt property to practice religion

Where in the bible does it say you have to pray in a million dollar church on land that is exempt from taxes?

Bible has nothing to do with it. Society has decided to not tax not for profits when they do not for profit work.

But they DO make a profit. Anytime they carry any revenue over to following years that is making a profit.

Another attempt at semantics to punish people you don't like.

What a petulant child you are.

 

[Penelope]

esp since they do not endorse the Johnson Amendment but Trump said he repealed it, it may be in the new tax cut , who knows.

Evangelical Faux Churches are popping up everywhere and they serve drinks under the pretense of "Communion". (we have on in our town)

Dan Johnson the Rep who just committed suicide used his home as a tax exempt church, not all were welcome, and they sold beer and drinks under the pretense of Communion, but he didn't quite sell beer, he lied and said it was a donation.

You can read and research the The Pope's Long Con , google it.

Since we can't maintain the division of Church and State, we need to start making churches pay tax, esp those Evan ones on TV.

I hope when the Dems get in and they will, they do this.

Faux preachers have abused this tax free status for far toooo long.

Socialism has always sought to subordinate religion.

Tax exempt Churches is socialism.