The NIST 9-11 Report on the WTC Collapse

[Mr. Jones]

Not so fast, Princess.
It was you who brought "molten steel" into this discussion and have not only failed to prove it existed but failed to admit no one really knows what those molten mats were. There is no point moving beyond this point until you do so.

Just another failing of NIST and another example of eyewitness testimony disregarded

from your hero Mr gross

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVFwkAMd2-k]9//11 NIST denies evidence of molten steel at the WTC Site (compilation) - YouTube[/ame]

Did any of those witnesses have the sense or ability to test the molten metal in an effort to properly identify it?

You SLIMBALL COWARD SOB....
Wow you want to put the responsibility of testing on the GZ workers? You fucking twat, the responsibility was all on NIST. The GZ workers and contractors hired, reported, confirmed and informed everyone about what they saw, many with their own eyes, and it was up to NIST to follow through and conduct a thorough investigation.
Your logic depends on what NIST ignored and dismissed.
I have shown where NIST fucked up, and how stupid you are for even assuming it was melted aluminum by using your own debunked debunking sites calculations, and it should be obvious that there was waay more steel then aluminum, and that the aluminum was mostly on the outside of the towers, whereas the melted steel was in the centers of the wreckage piles and up to some 70 feet below the surface.
I have a video of Robertson saying he fucking saw it with his own eyes and you have some obscure BS 2nd hand accounting of him denying it LOL!

Look asshole, you have tried to derail this thread, and even tried using Nazi remarks in a desperate attempt at race baiting, and reference to "Jooos".
You have been challenged to put up details about the NIST report and their testing and you can't or wont instead choosing to use the above mentioned tactics.
Bottom line is that NIST is a joke and a fraud, and their own testing proves it, and all you can do is try to spin it away and place the blame on the GZ workers, call people Nazis, and race bait by mentioning "joos".

You're a pathetic troll who isn't even good at trolling, and knows nothing when it comes to the topic of the thread and has nothing relevant to post in your defense of a wild conspiracy theory that depends on bad science, and avoiding important issues to form a predetermined conclusion, that helped send America into wars, debt, and death.

The NIST report is full of instances that show they have no credibility, or integrity, and that prove their theory is wrong, but you come here and try to defend it without using anything that is within it to back you up.

Your agenda and your tactics are obvious, and so is your lack of knowledge, as well as your anti American stance.

I'll be posting what else in the NIST report is fucked up in due time.
Blaming the GZ people for what a US government agency that was charged with the responsibility of the investigation is a fucking lowdown, cowardly weak, pussy ass way to defend your position in this thread.

It is you who has gotten its ass kicked.

 

[Montrovant]

I've been browsing through the NIST report a bit. There was a ton of computer modeling done, I'm wondering if that's something you have issues with? Either the type of programs used, or the data input, or just the fact that it's modeling as opposed to testing of physical components?

While I will admit that computer modeling is not necessarily the most accurate possible procedure, in the case of the collapse of the towers, I'm not sure what else they could have done to try and determine the specifics of the event.

I don't know if I'm going to see anything in the report that I would tout as proof it is correct. I still maintain that the NIST report might be wrong in any number of specifics.


One thing I did want to bring up is regarding the reason why those of us who believe the NIST report, or at least the general idea behind it, think as we do. It's actually pretty simple IMO. We watched it happen. We saw the planes hit the towers. We saw the fires burning out of control. Then we saw the buildings collapse, and didn't see the tell-tale explosions of normal building demolition, nor anything else that would indicate the planes and fires we saw were not responsible for the collapses. When you watch something like this, live on tv, it seems pretty obvious what happened (in general terms). It then takes a lot of convincing to change someone's opinion. It will likely require more than another person's suspicions; some pretty concrete evidence is called for. Whatever you think about the events of 9/11, I don't believe I have seen the sort of concrete evidence that would overcome what so many of us think we saw.

When you add in the many theories about how it happened (various forms of controlled demo, nukes, what-have-you) and the theories about who was behind it (the US govt, the Israelis, the New World Order, etc.), it's even harder to convince me, or others who tend to believe the NIST report, that it is wrong.

You are basically saying, "I know you saw this happen. But what you saw is NOT what happened!". Eyewitness accounts can be extremely inaccurate, but people still usually believe what they think they see. And in this case, we not only saw it, but have seen numerous pictures and videos of it.

For you and other 9/11 truthers, I think that your distrust of government makes it easier to accept the idea of a conspiracy behind the events. It means that anything that might appear questionable is more likely to lead to thoughts of cover-ups and secrets.


Anyway, I'll keep browsing the report over the next couple of days. However, if there's other examples of things you find wrong or questionable, it would probably be easier for you to bring them up for discussion. Waiting for me to show why the NIST report is correct is probably a fool's errand. I have neither the education nor inclination to try and explain the details of how their modeling was correct.

 

[eots]

I've been browsing through the NIST report a bit. There was a ton of computer modeling done, I'm wondering if that's something you have issues with? Either the type of programs used, or the data input, or just the fact that it's modeling as opposed to testing of physical components?

While I will admit that computer modeling is not necessarily the most accurate possible procedure, in the case of the collapse of the towers, I'm not sure what else they could have done to try and determine the specifics of the event.

I don't know if I'm going to see anything in the report that I would tout as proof it is correct. I still maintain that the NIST report might be wrong in any number of specifics.


One thing I did want to bring up is regarding the reason why those of us who believe the NIST report, or at least the general idea behind it, think as we do. It's actually pretty simple IMO. We watched it happen. We saw the planes hit the towers. We saw the fires burning out of control. Then we saw the buildings collapse, and didn't see the tell-tale explosions of normal building demolition, nor anything else that would indicate the planes and fires we saw were not responsible for the collapses. When you watch something like this, live on tv, it seems pretty obvious what happened (in general terms). It then takes a lot of convincing to change someone's opinion. It will likely require more than another person's suspicions; some pretty concrete evidence is called for. Whatever you think about the events of 9/11, I don't believe I have seen the sort of concrete evidence that would overcome what so many of us think we saw.

When you add in the many theories about how it happened (various forms of controlled demo, nukes, what-have-you) and the theories about who was behind it (the US govt, the Israelis, the New World Order, etc.), it's even harder to convince me, or others who tend to believe the NIST report, that it is wrong.

You are basically saying, "I know you saw this happen. But what you saw is NOT what happened!". Eyewitness accounts can be extremely inaccurate, but people still usually believe what they think they see. And in this case, we not only saw it, but have seen numerous pictures and videos of it.

For you and other 9/11 truthers, I think that your distrust of government makes it easier to accept the idea of a conspiracy behind the events. It means that anything that might appear questionable is more likely to lead to thoughts of cover-ups and secrets.


Anyway, I'll keep browsing the report over the next couple of days. However, if there's other examples of things you find wrong or questionable, it would probably be easier for you to bring them up for discussion. Waiting for me to show why the NIST report is correct is probably a fool's errand. I have neither the education nor inclination to try and explain the details of how their modeling was correct.

NIST used computer models that they said have never been used in such an application before and are the state of the art. For this they should be commended for their skill. But the validation of these modeling results is in question. Others have computed aspects with different conclusions on the cause mechanism of the collapse. Moreover, it is common in fire investigation to compute a time-line and compare it to known events. NIST has not done that.


OpEdNews - Article: Former Chief of NIST's Fire Science Division Calls for Independent Review of World Trade Center Investigation

 

[daws101]

also you tube does not check what's posted for accuracy ,not that it would mean much to eots!

WELL OBVIOUSLY.. YOUR VIDEO MADE BY SOME UNKNOWN YOUTUBER THAT IS COMPLETELY CONTRARY TO THE NIST REPORT THAT CLAIMS TO SUPPORT IS AMPLE PROOF OF THAT..BUT THE ARREST AND DETAINING OF ISRAELIES AFTER 9/11 IS NOT IN DISPUTE AND IS CONFIRMED BY MULTIPLE CREDIBLE SOURCES
I AM SURE YOU AWARE OF THIS FACT...BUT TRUTH IS NOT YOUR AGENDA

yes dear...now do you have any credible linkage (not you tube links or twoofer site links) that prove these arrests were anything more than S.O.P. in a terrorist attack?

 

[daws101]

Just another failing of NIST and another example of eyewitness testimony disregarded

from your hero Mr gross

9//11 NIST denies evidence of molten steel at the WTC Site (compilation) - YouTube

Did any of those witnesses have the sense or ability to test the molten metal in an effort to properly identify it?

You SLIMBALL COWARD SOB....
Wow you want to put the responsibility of testing on the GZ workers? You fucking twat, the responsibility was all on NIST. The GZ workers and contractors hired, reported, confirmed and informed everyone about what they saw, many with their own eyes, and it was up to NIST to follow through and conduct a thorough investigation.
Your logic depends on what NIST ignored and dismissed.
I have shown where NIST fucked up, and how stupid you are for even assuming it was melted aluminum by using your own debunked debunking sites calculations, and it should be obvious that there was waay more steel then aluminum, and that the aluminum was mostly on the outside of the towers, whereas the melted steel was in the centers of the wreckage piles and up to some 70 feet below the surface.
I have a video of Robertson saying he fucking saw it with his own eyes and you have some obscure BS 2nd hand accounting of him denying it LOL!

Look asshole, you have tried to derail this thread, and even tried using Nazi remarks in a desperate attempt at race baiting, and reference to "Jooos".
You have been challenged to put up details about the NIST report and their testing and you can't or wont instead choosing to use the above mentioned tactics.
Bottom line is that NIST is a joke and a fraud, and their own testing proves it, and all you can do is try to spin it away and place the blame on the GZ workers, call people Nazis, and race bait by mentioning "joos".

You're a pathetic troll who isn't even good at trolling, and knows nothing when it comes to the topic of the thread and has nothing relevant to post in your defense of a wild conspiracy theory that depends on bad science, and avoiding important issues to form a predetermined conclusion, that helped send America into wars, debt, and death.

The NIST report is full of instances that show they have no credibility, or integrity, and that prove their theory is wrong, but you come here and try to defend it without using anything that is within it to back you up.

Your agenda and your tactics are obvious, and so is your lack of knowledge, as well as your anti American stance.

I'll be posting what else in the NIST report is fucked up in due time.
Blaming the GZ people for what a US government agency that was charged with the responsibility of the investigation is a fucking lowdown, cowardly weak, pussy ass way to defend your position in this thread.

It is you who has gotten its ass kicked.

A classic sister jones tantrum!
chocked full of vitriol...false subjective speculation...take your asshanding like a man not a spoiled child ...

 

[Mr. Jones]

I've been browsing through the NIST report a bit. There was a ton of computer modeling done, I'm wondering if that's something you have issues with? Either the type of programs used, or the data input, or just the fact that it's modeling as opposed to testing of physical components?

Yes I was going to get to that after some of the fire/fuel load estimates etc..But basically when doing such analysis and computer modelling, the results are only as accurate as what gets put into it. NIST considered three different scenarios, they ranged from less damage to extreme damage, with a moderate damage they used as the "base" in between. The three differed greatly, in predicting the number of severed columns at the WTC core. They had a big problem predicting the conditions in the core of the towers . They had photos, and many hours of video to guide them somewhat as far as the exterior damage and outer offices were concerned, but they couldn't get a handle on the interior.
“Fires deeper than a few meters inside the building could not be seen because of the smoke obscuration [sic] and the steep viewing angle of nearly all the photographs.”-
NIST NCSTAR 1, WTC Investigation, p. 124.
Except for a few steel samples they had no other info on the interior.
This is when they tried to overcome their lack of information by computer simulations.

While I will admit that computer modeling is not necessarily the most accurate possible procedure, in the case of the collapse of the towers, I'm not sure what else they could have done to try and determine the specifics of the event.

No I agree, the computer simulation was a logical next step, but it is still only as accurate as the assumptions, or guesses of calculations that are entered into a program..

I don't know if I'm going to see anything in the report that I would tout as proof it is correct. I still maintain that the NIST report might be wrong in any number of specifics.

We can't expect it to be 100% dead on, especially since most of the steel and evidence of the crime scene were quickly hauled away, which is BTW, another glaring problem. I can see them moving wreckage out of the way while taking photos or video of the process, but to haul away evidence from a mass murder crime scene is inexcusable. Can't say we can lay the blame on NIST, for that one, but they sure didn't seem to protest them doing that.

One thing I did want to bring up is regarding the reason why those of us who believe the NIST report, or at least the general idea behind it, think as we do. It's actually pretty simple IMO. We watched it happen. We saw the planes hit the towers. We saw the fires burning out of control. Then we saw the buildings collapse, and didn't see the tell-tale explosions of normal building demolition, nor anything else that would indicate the planes and fires we saw were not responsible for the collapses. When you watch something like this, live on tv, it seems pretty obvious what happened (in general terms). It then takes a lot of convincing to change someone's opinion. It will likely require more than another person's suspicions; some pretty concrete evidence is called for. Whatever you think about the events of 9/11, I don't believe I have seen the sort of concrete evidence that would overcome what so many of us think we saw.

I saw it too, and there was not much time to process the horror initially for most of us. I was pissed and while I believed that what I was watching, the way the towers came down, so rapidly and seemingly in such sync, I had the same response as many of the newscasters who were commenting of how it looked as though they were being imploded as one said "by well placed dynamite".
Then later in the evening, when 7 fell...well that for sure made me and many other people a bit suspicious, after all it wasn't hit by a plane, and was not nearly as damaged as the twins. It took the voices of credible people who looked further into it months later to convince me that what we saw was not a reasonable result of 2 planes.
Then when the evasiveness and outright lying, and the administration NOT wanting to even conduct a proper investigation, and all that subsequently came out.....Fuck that, people were off trying to connect the dots, but by then the country was sending military off to "get Bin Laden" and fight "terrorism" and the whole 9 yards of what turned out to be BS. Many people trusted and expected to hear that the perpetrators rigged the buildings, or had inside connections to help them, and this was reinforced by the attacks occurring "coincidentally" as scheduled terror drills were taking place? Oh for sure they had an inside track by some people that had to have helped them.
Slowly the more we learned about the buildings, steel, "jetfuel" who held the lease, who was connected to who, many of the hijackers turning up alive..And then all the lying and the bogus conflict of interest 9-11 Commission....
It's BS, and as time went on and we learned more, it became apparent that this was allowed to happen..Then the whole phoney Iraq war and the BS reasons and intell used to start that invasion...There's just too much to list that make up peoples minds that this was all planned out and executed as the start to a larger military agenda, and fleecing of the nation.

When you add in the many theories about how it happened (various forms of controlled demo, nukes, what-have-you) and the theories about who was behind it (the US govt, the Israelis, the New World Order, etc.), it's even harder to convince me, or others who tend to believe the NIST report, that it is wrong.

I stated that my belief is that the NIST report was contrived to fit the "observed" results, to justify the planned agendas. If one truly takes an objective look at the steps along the way that NIST took, it is obvious. We were all shocked and horrified, but upon further review, it is impossible for it to have happened the way it is written down and said, and they had to ignore obvious evidence and witnesses, and extrapolated data to achieve the results, but who was going to stop them?

You are basically saying, "I know you saw this happen. But what you saw is NOT what happened!". Eyewitness accounts can be extremely inaccurate, but people still usually believe what they think they see. And in this case, we not only saw it, but have seen numerous pictures and videos of it.

Not denying what we saw at all, it's the results.

For you and other 9/11 truthers, I think that your distrust of government makes it easier to accept the idea of a conspiracy behind the events. It means that anything that might appear questionable is more likely to lead to thoughts of cover-ups and secrets.

You guys believe in one of the biggest, most outrageous CT of them all, and what's really strange is that year after year has passed with more damning evidence against it, and you all still can't admit it. If you look at the history of your nation, you will find many instances that some of the people who have participated in the government have outright lied, and led America astray. We get lied to all the time, and you wouldn't know it unless you actually read a little history, and stayed away from the rah rah BS propaganda that is fed to us everyday.

Anyway, I'll keep browsing the report over the next couple of days. However, if there's other examples of things you find wrong or questionable, it would probably be easier for you to bring them up for discussion. Waiting for me to show why the NIST report is correct is probably a fool's errand. I have neither the education nor inclination to try and explain the details of how their modeling was correct. :tongue

This isn't an easy task, but I'll post up what other things led me to believe in what I just described.

 

[Mr. Jones]

Did any of those witnesses have the sense or ability to test the molten metal in an effort to properly identify it?

You SLIMBALL COWARD SOB....
Wow you want to put the responsibility of testing on the GZ workers? You fucking twat, the responsibility was all on NIST. The GZ workers and contractors hired, reported, confirmed and informed everyone about what they saw, many with their own eyes, and it was up to NIST to follow through and conduct a thorough investigation.
Your logic depends on what NIST ignored and dismissed.
I have shown where NIST fucked up, and how stupid you are for even assuming it was melted aluminum by using your own debunked debunking sites calculations, and it should be obvious that there was waay more steel then aluminum, and that the aluminum was mostly on the outside of the towers, whereas the melted steel was in the centers of the wreckage piles and up to some 70 feet below the surface.
I have a video of Robertson saying he fucking saw it with his own eyes and you have some obscure BS 2nd hand accounting of him denying it LOL!

Look asshole, you have tried to derail this thread, and even tried using Nazi remarks in a desperate attempt at race baiting, and reference to "Jooos".
You have been challenged to put up details about the NIST report and their testing and you can't or wont instead choosing to use the above mentioned tactics.
Bottom line is that NIST is a joke and a fraud, and their own testing proves it, and all you can do is try to spin it away and place the blame on the GZ workers, call people Nazis, and race bait by mentioning "joos".

You're a pathetic troll who isn't even good at trolling, and knows nothing when it comes to the topic of the thread and has nothing relevant to post in your defense of a wild conspiracy theory that depends on bad science, and avoiding important issues to form a predetermined conclusion, that helped send America into wars, debt, and death.

The NIST report is full of instances that show they have no credibility, or integrity, and that prove their theory is wrong, but you come here and try to defend it without using anything that is within it to back you up.

Your agenda and your tactics are obvious, and so is your lack of knowledge, as well as your anti American stance.

I'll be posting what else in the NIST report is fucked up in due time.
Blaming the GZ people for what a US government agency that was charged with the responsibility of the investigation is a fucking lowdown, cowardly weak, pussy ass way to defend your position in this thread.

It is you who has gotten its ass kicked.

A classic sister jones tantrum!
chocked full of vitriol...false subjective speculation...take your asshanding like a man not a spoiled child ...

Eat shit slimeball, you got your ass kicked and your sources as well.
You and "9/11Myths" got punked bitch, where is NIST to help you on that one?

200,000 tons of steel minimum...in each tower, but you bitches want to insist it was Aluminum....Robertson on video tape no less, saying he saw it too...on top of the hundreds of others, including hired contractors, and satellite imaging...
And then you expect GZ people to do NIST's work on top of it. What pathetic little whiny bitches you sayit are.

 

[Montrovant]

Mr. Jones, I think I've brought this up before, but it's relevant to your last post to me. I absolutely believe that the US government has, over the course of the country's history, lied, cheated, extorted, and murdered. I actually think it likely was worse in the past, simply because it's so much harder to hide nowadays, thanks to advances in technology (both recording and communication). I certainly do NOT think the US government is always right, always moral, or some bastion of greatness to be emulated by all.

That said, I also believe that any government, run by oh-so-fallible humans, is likely to have as much or more incompetence as corruption. It is the scope and manpower seemingly required for 9/11 to have been run by a government that keeps me from being able to accept that kind of theory.

I find the idea that the government allowed it to happen much easier to swallow than that they engineered it. And if they simply allowed it, then the planes are still at fault for the collapses.

 

[Montrovant]

I know this is probably in vain, but if possible could we keep the usual insults and vitriol out of this thread?

I know that each 'side' of this discussion tends to think the other side is full of idiots. We have tons of other 9/11 threads where we can hurl taunts at each other, can we try to keep one more civil?

I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, the thread has just degenerated lately as they all seem to.

 

[SAYIT]

Just another failing of NIST and another example of eyewitness testimony disregarded

from your hero Mr gross

9//11 NIST denies evidence of molten steel at the WTC Site (compilation) - YouTube

Did any of those witnesses have the sense or ability to test the molten metal in an effort to properly identify it?

You SLIMBALL COWARD SOB....
Wow you want to put the responsibility of testing on the GZ workers? You fucking twat, the responsibility was all on NIST. The GZ workers and contractors hired, reported, confirmed and informed everyone about what they saw, many with their own eyes, and it was up to NIST to follow through and conduct a thorough investigation...
It is you who has gotten its ass kicked.

Calm down, Princess, before you blow a valve.
My point is that regardless of what they may have said, none of those who saw molten material at GZ had any way of knowing it was molten steel. That NIST chose not to test it does not mean it was steel and is not proof of a cover-up and your assumptions about it are just self-serving pap. Woo.

 

[daws101]

You SLIMBALL COWARD SOB....
Wow you want to put the responsibility of testing on the GZ workers? You fucking twat, the responsibility was all on NIST. The GZ workers and contractors hired, reported, confirmed and informed everyone about what they saw, many with their own eyes, and it was up to NIST to follow through and conduct a thorough investigation.
Your logic depends on what NIST ignored and dismissed.
I have shown where NIST fucked up, and how stupid you are for even assuming it was melted aluminum by using your own debunked debunking sites calculations, and it should be obvious that there was waay more steel then aluminum, and that the aluminum was mostly on the outside of the towers, whereas the melted steel was in the centers of the wreckage piles and up to some 70 feet below the surface.
I have a video of Robertson saying he fucking saw it with his own eyes and you have some obscure BS 2nd hand accounting of him denying it LOL!

Look asshole, you have tried to derail this thread, and even tried using Nazi remarks in a desperate attempt at race baiting, and reference to "Jooos".
You have been challenged to put up details about the NIST report and their testing and you can't or wont instead choosing to use the above mentioned tactics.
Bottom line is that NIST is a joke and a fraud, and their own testing proves it, and all you can do is try to spin it away and place the blame on the GZ workers, call people Nazis, and race bait by mentioning "joos".

You're a pathetic troll who isn't even good at trolling, and knows nothing when it comes to the topic of the thread and has nothing relevant to post in your defense of a wild conspiracy theory that depends on bad science, and avoiding important issues to form a predetermined conclusion, that helped send America into wars, debt, and death.

The NIST report is full of instances that show they have no credibility, or integrity, and that prove their theory is wrong, but you come here and try to defend it without using anything that is within it to back you up.

Your agenda and your tactics are obvious, and so is your lack of knowledge, as well as your anti American stance.

I'll be posting what else in the NIST report is fucked up in due time.
Blaming the GZ people for what a US government agency that was charged with the responsibility of the investigation is a fucking lowdown, cowardly weak, pussy ass way to defend your position in this thread.

It is you who has gotten its ass kicked.

A classic sister jones tantrum!
chocked full of vitriol...false subjective speculation...take your asshanding like a man not a spoiled child ...

Eat shit slimeball, you got your ass kicked and your sources as well.
You and "9/11Myths" got punked bitch, where is NIST to help you on that one?

200,000 tons of steel minimum...in each tower, but you bitches want to insist it was Aluminum....Robertson on video tape no less, saying he saw it too...on top of the hundreds of others, including hired contractors, and satellite imaging...
And then you expect GZ people to do NIST's work on top of it. What pathetic little whiny bitches you sayit are.

 

[SAYIT]

I've been browsing through the NIST report a bit. There was a ton of computer modeling done, I'm wondering if that's something you have issues with? Either the type of programs used, or the data input, or just the fact that it's modeling as opposed to testing of physical components?

While I will admit that computer modeling is not necessarily the most accurate possible procedure, in the case of the collapse of the towers, I'm not sure what else they could have done to try and determine the specifics of the event.

I don't know if I'm going to see anything in the report that I would tout as proof it is correct. I still maintain that the NIST report might be wrong in any number of specifics.


One thing I did want to bring up is regarding the reason why those of us who believe the NIST report, or at least the general idea behind it, think as we do. It's actually pretty simple IMO. We watched it happen. We saw the planes hit the towers. We saw the fires burning out of control. Then we saw the buildings collapse, and didn't see the tell-tale explosions of normal building demolition, nor anything else that would indicate the planes and fires we saw were not responsible for the collapses. When you watch something like this, live on tv, it seems pretty obvious what happened (in general terms). It then takes a lot of convincing to change someone's opinion. It will likely require more than another person's suspicions; some pretty concrete evidence is called for. Whatever you think about the events of 9/11, I don't believe I have seen the sort of concrete evidence that would overcome what so many of us think we saw.

When you add in the many theories about how it happened (various forms of controlled demo, nukes, what-have-you) and the theories about who was behind it (the US govt, the Israelis, the New World Order, etc.), it's even harder to convince me, or others who tend to believe the NIST report, that it is wrong.

You are basically saying, "I know you saw this happen. But what you saw is NOT what happened!". Eyewitness accounts can be extremely inaccurate, but people still usually believe what they think they see. And in this case, we not only saw it, but have seen numerous pictures and videos of it.

For you and other 9/11 truthers, I think that your distrust of government makes it easier to accept the idea of a conspiracy behind the events. It means that anything that might appear questionable is more likely to lead to thoughts of cover-ups and secrets.


Anyway, I'll keep browsing the report over the next couple of days. However, if there's other examples of things you find wrong or questionable, it would probably be easier for you to bring them up for discussion. Waiting for me to show why the NIST report is correct is probably a fool's errand. I have neither the education nor inclination to try and explain the details of how their modeling was correct.

My observations are similar. Some of those who have a fundamental distrust or dislike of our gov't or Israel or the NWO have much time invested in their particular CTs. Some, like Jones, seem to have so much invested they can't let go no matter how few hard facts they have. Their shrill and often desperate posts seem irrational when placed in the context of how peeps normally speak to one another.

 

[SAYIT]

You SLIMBALL COWARD SOB....
Wow you want to put the responsibility of testing on the GZ workers? You fucking twat, the responsibility was all on NIST. The GZ workers and contractors hired, reported, confirmed and informed everyone about what they saw, many with their own eyes, and it was up to NIST to follow through and conduct a thorough investigation.
Your logic depends on what NIST ignored and dismissed.
I have shown where NIST fucked up, and how stupid you are for even assuming it was melted aluminum by using your own debunked debunking sites calculations, and it should be obvious that there was waay more steel then aluminum, and that the aluminum was mostly on the outside of the towers, whereas the melted steel was in the centers of the wreckage piles and up to some 70 feet below the surface.
I have a video of Robertson saying he fucking saw it with his own eyes and you have some obscure BS 2nd hand accounting of him denying it LOL!

Look asshole, you have tried to derail this thread, and even tried using Nazi remarks in a desperate attempt at race baiting, and reference to "Jooos".
You have been challenged to put up details about the NIST report and their testing and you can't or wont instead choosing to use the above mentioned tactics.
Bottom line is that NIST is a joke and a fraud, and their own testing proves it, and all you can do is try to spin it away and place the blame on the GZ workers, call people Nazis, and race bait by mentioning "joos".

You're a pathetic troll who isn't even good at trolling, and knows nothing when it comes to the topic of the thread and has nothing relevant to post in your defense of a wild conspiracy theory that depends on bad science, and avoiding important issues to form a predetermined conclusion, that helped send America into wars, debt, and death.

The NIST report is full of instances that show they have no credibility, or integrity, and that prove their theory is wrong, but you come here and try to defend it without using anything that is within it to back you up.

Your agenda and your tactics are obvious, and so is your lack of knowledge, as well as your anti American stance.

I'll be posting what else in the NIST report is fucked up in due time.
Blaming the GZ people for what a US government agency that was charged with the responsibility of the investigation is a fucking lowdown, cowardly weak, pussy ass way to defend your position in this thread.

It is you who has gotten its ass kicked.

A classic sister jones tantrum!
chocked full of vitriol...false subjective speculation...take your asshanding like a man not a spoiled child ...

Eat shit slimeball, you got your ass kicked and your sources as well.
You and "9/11Myths" got punked bitch, where is NIST to help you on that one?

200,000 tons of steel minimum...in each tower, but you bitches want to insist it was Aluminum....Robertson on video tape no less, saying he saw it too...on top of the hundreds of others, including hired contractors, and satellite imaging...
And then you expect GZ people to do NIST's work on top of it. What pathetic little whiny bitches you sayit are.

Robertson said no such thing. That video had Gage reading from the James Williams article in which Robertson was misquoted. Robertson did not test the molten mats nor did he check their temp and admitted he had no way of knowing what it was. I realize you have your heart and soul in your 9/11 CT but that doesn't make it factual.

 

[SAYIT]

Just another failing of NIST and another example of eyewitness testimony disregarded

from your hero Mr gross

9//11 NIST denies evidence of molten steel at the WTC Site (compilation) - YouTube

Did any of those witnesses have the sense or ability to test the molten metal in an effort to properly identify it?

You SLIMBALL COWARD SOB....
Wow you want to put the responsibility of testing on the GZ workers? You fucking twat, the responsibility was all on NIST. The GZ workers and contractors hired, reported, confirmed and informed everyone about what they saw, many with their own eyes, and it was up to NIST to follow through and conduct a thorough investigation.
Your logic depends on what NIST ignored and dismissed.
I have shown where NIST fucked up, and how stupid you are for even assuming it was melted aluminum by using your own debunked debunking sites calculations, and it should be obvious that there was waay more steel then aluminum, and that the aluminum was mostly on the outside of the towers, whereas the melted steel was in the centers of the wreckage piles and up to some 70 feet below the surface.

No you haven't but you have proven you are delusional. Since the fire's temps are known to have been well below the temp required to melt steel it is far more rational to conclude the molten mats contained no steel than it is to assume some super secret stuff was used to burn through and melt the steel, burn for weeks and leave no residue. The amount of steel vs. aluminum is of absolutely no significance ... all that was need was enough non-steel metals to create those pools of molten material.

 

[daws101]

Did any of those witnesses have the sense or ability to test the molten metal in an effort to properly identify it?

You SLIMBALL COWARD SOB....
Wow you want to put the responsibility of testing on the GZ workers? You fucking twat, the responsibility was all on NIST. The GZ workers and contractors hired, reported, confirmed and informed everyone about what they saw, many with their own eyes, and it was up to NIST to follow through and conduct a thorough investigation.
Your logic depends on what NIST ignored and dismissed.
I have shown where NIST fucked up, and how stupid you are for even assuming it was melted aluminum by using your own debunked debunking sites calculations, and it should be obvious that there was waay more steel then aluminum, and that the aluminum was mostly on the outside of the towers, whereas the melted steel was in the centers of the wreckage piles and up to some 70 feet below the surface.

No you haven't but you have proven you are delusional. Since the fire's temps are known to have been well below the temp required to melt steel it is far more rational to conclude the molten mats contained no steel than it is to assume some super secret stuff was used to burn through and melt the steel, burn for weeks and leave no residue. The amount of steel vs. aluminum is of absolutely no significance ... all that was need was enough non-steel metals to create those pools of molten material.

another sister jones tantrum in 5.....4....3...2..1

 

[eots]

these threads should be in the clean debate zone..these clowns could not possible hold a debate with out their silly pictures strawmen and ad hominem

 

[Mr. Jones]

Mr. Jones, I think I've brought this up before, but it's relevant to your last post to me. I absolutely believe that the US government has, over the course of the country's history, lied, cheated, extorted, and murdered. I actually think it likely was worse in the past, simply because it's so much harder to hide nowadays, thanks to advances in technology (both recording and communication). I certainly do NOT think the US government is always right, always moral, or some bastion of greatness to be emulated by all.

But the American people have been conditioned to think it is all of our lives. It's like discovering your uncle "Sam" has been the one behind a serial killing spree. I don't believe everyone in our system of government is inherently evil or even corruptible. Maybe I'm being naive, but I still think there are decent people in the system, just misled and pressured to go with the their party's agenda, which is being influenced and dictated mostly by corporate or foriegn political monied interests.

That said, I also believe that any government, run by oh-so-fallible humans, is likely to have as much or more incompetence as corruption. It is the scope and manpower seemingly required for 9/11 to have been run by a government that keeps me from being able to accept that kind of theory.

No it would not take legions of people in the know to carry out such a crime. Like most secretive operations, the details would only need to be known by only a few within our government agencies and depts.
Why else were the attacks done on the same day as terror drills? To divert and confuse,
"is this real world or exercise?"

I find the idea that the government allowed it to happen much easier to swallow than that they engineered it. And if they simply allowed it, then the planes are still at fault for the collapses.

Again tho, only a few men in key positions of authority within our government were instrumental in facilitating this crime. For example, I sure as hell don't think Bush had anything to do with any strategic planning of 9-11. The details were probably known to Cheney and the rest of the PNAC members in the administration. Others I believe were threatened and made to stand down. Trillions announced as missing from the Pentagon the day before 9-11 and a fear of disclosing wrong doing by those might have been enough for some to just fall back, this is just one speculative theory.
The planes were tools used as weapons to show America was under attack, but those buildings had to come down and this was assured before hand.
Even if they weren't totally destroyed the fact that the attacks happened would have been enough to proceed with the invasions, and war agenda previously planned. But why rebuild/repair those buildings that had so many problems,and plans were made years ago to dismantle them anyway, when you could assure that they would be completely destroyed, repairing the damage wouldn't be cost effective, and demolishing 7 and whatever harmful secrets it contained probably was beneficial to some as well.

If NIST would have said they strongly suspected other means of destroying those buildings was suspected and found, it would have caused a shit storm and fingers would get pointed in other directions, and they couldn't have all that going on. Alqaeda and Muslims had to be blamed, and the Taliban for "harboring" them.
Take a close look at who was in those positions of power and authority at the time, and then take a good look at the PNAC and who they were affiliated with and who their loyalty is to. Nuttyyahoo was so bold he declared the 9-11 attacks as "good for Israel", because there were people in the US government that ensured America would go and kill Israel's enemies around the world, and especially in Iraq where Saddam was paying 25 grand for each suicide or terrorist plot that killed Israeli's.
So to say "THE" US government was behind it all is wrong. There were well placed Israeli operatives and loyalists within it that facilitated the attacks, and their Sayanim that allowed their buildings to be the target. It was a brilliantly evil plan, that along the way had its miscues and it's those miscues that demanded a closer examination of the details the perps deemed unimportant, ignored, or pretended did not even exist and this is why many don't believe the OCT.
If these criminals had the kind of power, people and resources to carry out such a plan, it wouldn't be too difficult to make life very hard on those that even dared to speak up. They would be quite capable of intimidating, bribing, or "disposing" off any thing or anyone they felt was a threat.

The NIST report had to stay in line with there being only outside source that used planes to attack the US, and that there was nothing else used to destroy those buildings. They had to stay on script as only planes hijacked by fanatical Muslim extremists were responsible, but upon closer examination it falls apart.
The NIST report is not the only instance where the conspiracy theory falls apart either
but it was crucial in keeping the fable going.

 

[Montrovant]

Mr. Jones, I think I've brought this up before, but it's relevant to your last post to me. I absolutely believe that the US government has, over the course of the country's history, lied, cheated, extorted, and murdered. I actually think it likely was worse in the past, simply because it's so much harder to hide nowadays, thanks to advances in technology (both recording and communication). I certainly do NOT think the US government is always right, always moral, or some bastion of greatness to be emulated by all.

But the American people have been conditioned to think it is all of our lives. It's like discovering your uncle "Sam" has been the one behind a serial killing spree. I don't believe everyone in our system of government is inherently evil or even corruptible. Maybe I'm being naive, but I still think there are decent people in the system, just misled and pressured to go with the their party's agenda, which is being influenced and dictated mostly by corporate or foriegn political monied interests.

No it would not take legions of people in the know to carry out such a crime. Like most secretive operations, the details would only need to be known by only a few within our government agencies and depts.
Why else were the attacks done on the same day as terror drills? To divert and confuse,
"is this real world or exercise?"

I find the idea that the government allowed it to happen much easier to swallow than that they engineered it. And if they simply allowed it, then the planes are still at fault for the collapses.

Again tho, only a few men in key positions of authority within our government were instrumental in facilitating this crime. For example, I sure as hell don't think Bush had anything to do with any strategic planning of 9-11. The details were probably known to Cheney and the rest of the PNAC members in the administration. Others I believe were threatened and made to stand down. Trillions announced as missing from the Pentagon the day before 9-11 and a fear of disclosing wrong doing by those might have been enough for some to just fall back, this is just one speculative theory.
The planes were tools used as weapons to show America was under attack, but those buildings had to come down and this was assured before hand.
Even if they weren't totally destroyed the fact that the attacks happened would have been enough to proceed with the invasions, and war agenda previously planned. But why rebuild/repair those buildings that had so many problems,and plans were made years ago to dismantle them anyway, when you could assure that they would be completely destroyed, repairing the damage wouldn't be cost effective, and demolishing 7 and whatever harmful secrets it contained probably was beneficial to some as well.

If NIST would have said they strongly suspected other means of destroying those buildings was suspected and found, it would have caused a shit storm and fingers would get pointed in other directions, and they couldn't have all that going on. Alqaeda and Muslims had to be blamed, and the Taliban for "harboring" them.
Take a close look at who was in those positions of power and authority at the time, and then take a good look at the PNAC and who they were affiliated with and who their loyalty is to. Nuttyyahoo was so bold he declared the 9-11 attacks as "good for Israel", because there were people in the US government that ensured America would go and kill Israel's enemies around the world, and especially in Iraq where Saddam was paying 25 grand for each suicide or terrorist plot that killed Israeli's.
So to say "THE" US government was behind it all is wrong. There were well placed Israeli operatives and loyalists within it that facilitated the attacks, and their Sayanim that allowed their buildings to be the target. It was a brilliantly evil plan, that along the way had its miscues and it's those miscues that demanded a closer examination of the details the perps deemed unimportant, ignored, or pretended did not even exist and this is why many don't believe the OCT.
If these criminals had the kind of power, people and resources to carry out such a plan, it wouldn't be too difficult to make life very hard on those that even dared to speak up. They would be quite capable of intimidating, bribing, or "disposing" off any thing or anyone they felt was a threat.

The NIST report had to stay in line with there being only outside source that used planes to attack the US, and that there was nothing else used to destroy those buildings. They had to stay on script as only planes hijacked by fanatical Muslim extremists were responsible, but upon closer examination it falls apart.
The NIST report is not the only instance where the conspiracy theory falls apart either
but it was crucial in keeping the fable going.

It might not take many people to plan 9/11, but I think it would take a decent number to execute it. Transporting and planting all the explosives, working with the terrorists and setting them up to make the attack, covering up afterwards, that's going to require quite a few 'bit players' to accomplish.

As you said, if the objective was to go to war in Afghanistan and Iraq, simply having the planes hit the towers would have done it, even without the collapses. Why then go through all the trouble, and risk discovery, to add explosives to bring the buildings down?

I haven't yet seen the NIST report, or the idea that the planes caused the collapses, fall apart. I guess that's what we're doing here, finding out how you think that it does and how I think it holds together. We've already disagreed to some degree about the molten metal/steel. What's next to view differently?!

 

[Mr. Jones]

A classic sister jones tantrum!
chocked full of vitriol...false subjective speculation...take your asshanding like a man not a spoiled child ...

Eat shit slimeball, you got your ass kicked and your sources as well.
You and "9/11Myths" got punked bitch, where is NIST to help you on that one?

200,000 tons of steel minimum...in each tower, but you bitches want to insist it was Aluminum....Robertson on video tape no less, saying he saw it too...on top of the hundreds of others, including hired contractors, and satellite imaging...
And then you expect GZ people to do NIST's work on top of it. What pathetic little whiny bitches you sayit are.

Robertson said no such thing. That video had Gage reading from the James Williams article in which Robertson was misquoted. Robertson did not test the molten mats nor did he check their temp and admitted he had no way of knowing what it was. I realize you have your heart and soul in your 9/11 CT but that doesn't make it factual.

You once again must be grabbed by the hand like a child and shown what you purposefully ignore, when your CT is starting to fall apart.
You are a liar, and so is your "debunking" site where it seems you get most of your lies and disinformation from.

Les Robertson, in presentation at Stanford University, confirms that he saw a "river of molten steel" at the B1 level of the WTC debris pile. This video also has a clip of Robertson confirming that the WTC Towers were designed to absorb the impact of a Boeing 707, the largest airplane of its time.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rjmHqES_lto#]Les Robertson Confirms Molten Metal in WTC Basement - YouTube[/ame]!

 

[Mr. Jones]

But the American people have been conditioned to think it is all of our lives. It's like discovering your uncle "Sam" has been the one behind a serial killing spree. I don't believe everyone in our system of government is inherently evil or even corruptible. Maybe I'm being naive, but I still think there are decent people in the system, just misled and pressured to go with the their party's agenda, which is being influenced and dictated mostly by corporate or foriegn political monied interests.

No it would not take legions of people in the know to carry out such a crime. Like most secretive operations, the details would only need to be known by only a few within our government agencies and depts.
Why else were the attacks done on the same day as terror drills? To divert and confuse,
"is this real world or exercise?"

Again tho, only a few men in key positions of authority within our government were instrumental in facilitating this crime. For example, I sure as hell don't think Bush had anything to do with any strategic planning of 9-11. The details were probably known to Cheney and the rest of the PNAC members in the administration. Others I believe were threatened and made to stand down. Trillions announced as missing from the Pentagon the day before 9-11 and a fear of disclosing wrong doing by those might have been enough for some to just fall back, this is just one speculative theory.
The planes were tools used as weapons to show America was under attack, but those buildings had to come down and this was assured before hand.
Even if they weren't totally destroyed the fact that the attacks happened would have been enough to proceed with the invasions, and war agenda previously planned. But why rebuild/repair those buildings that had so many problems,and plans were made years ago to dismantle them anyway, when you could assure that they would be completely destroyed, repairing the damage wouldn't be cost effective, and demolishing 7 and whatever harmful secrets it contained probably was beneficial to some as well.

If NIST would have said they strongly suspected other means of destroying those buildings was suspected and found, it would have caused a shit storm and fingers would get pointed in other directions, and they couldn't have all that going on. Alqaeda and Muslims had to be blamed, and the Taliban for "harboring" them.
Take a close look at who was in those positions of power and authority at the time, and then take a good look at the PNAC and who they were affiliated with and who their loyalty is to. Nuttyyahoo was so bold he declared the 9-11 attacks as "good for Israel", because there were people in the US government that ensured America would go and kill Israel's enemies around the world, and especially in Iraq where Saddam was paying 25 grand for each suicide or terrorist plot that killed Israeli's.
So to say "THE" US government was behind it all is wrong. There were well placed Israeli operatives and loyalists within it that facilitated the attacks, and their Sayanim that allowed their buildings to be the target. It was a brilliantly evil plan, that along the way had its miscues and it's those miscues that demanded a closer examination of the details the perps deemed unimportant, ignored, or pretended did not even exist and this is why many don't believe the OCT.
If these criminals had the kind of power, people and resources to carry out such a plan, it wouldn't be too difficult to make life very hard on those that even dared to speak up. They would be quite capable of intimidating, bribing, or "disposing" off any thing or anyone they felt was a threat.

The NIST report had to stay in line with there being only outside source that used planes to attack the US, and that there was nothing else used to destroy those buildings. They had to stay on script as only planes hijacked by fanatical Muslim extremists were responsible, but upon closer examination it falls apart.
The NIST report is not the only instance where the conspiracy theory falls apart either
but it was crucial in keeping the fable going.

It might not take many people to plan 9/11, but I think it would take a decent number to execute it. Transporting and planting all the explosives, working with the terrorists and setting them up to make the attack, covering up afterwards, that's going to require quite a few 'bit players' to accomplish.

I don't believe the rigging of the buildings was done by Americans, at least at this moment. Silverstein is an Israeli Sayanim, and the security was controlled. Besides if like many of you suspect that gravity
was all that was needed to finish the "collapses" after "weakening" a few floors, then not much else would have been needed. Providing access to a small crew under the guise of "repairs" for a few months wouldn't necessitate including "thousands' like some idiots on here have proposed was needed. Recruiting fanatics would not require shit loads of personnel either. Once you get them on a plane that would be guided courtesy of Dov Zakheim's System Planning Corporation after it was hijacked from the hijackers in flight, and knowing that the terror drill/war games are going to take place, who else is needed?

As you said, if the objective was to go to war in Afghanistan and Iraq, simply having the planes hit the towers would have done it, even without the collapses. Why then go through all the trouble, and risk discovery, to add explosives to bring the buildings down?

Because as I just explained the WTC had to come down they were tagged for dismantling years prior. Read about those buildings and the myriad of problems the Port Authority was having with them. They were a prime target for an insurance scam, and subsequently an illegal demolition, and they planned ahead of time to rush the crime scene evidence away, and had their spin-masters in place ready to tell the world it was Alqaeda and OBL within minutes after the attack.
The cover worked well then and it's still working on people like yourself..."What are you talking about? WE ALL saw what happened!"
Right??

I haven't yet seen the NIST report, or the idea that the planes caused the collapses, fall apart. I guess that's what we're doing here, finding out how you think that it does and how I think it holds together. We've already disagreed to some degree about the molten metal/steel. What's next to view differently?!

How can you defend a conspiracy theory when so much is ignored out of the body of the investigation that is supposed to explain things? It's not just that the NIST investigation ignored relevant information that warranted further study, but it's also HOW they came to their conclusions, manipulating data to fit the "observed outcome" and in other cases keeping the data and how it was obtained a secret.
We've seen in this thread many instances of having to rely on ignoring evidence and witnesses, and people having to jump to highly improbable assumptions regarding the molten steel, to the point that when they are shown all the evidence against them, they resort to sidetracking tactics bringing up Nazis's and the Joooos and such.

I think that I made my point clear that the instance of the NIST ignoring molten steel, that was even seen my Robertson and many others, and how much steel there was compared to the quantity of aluminum, and where it was placed throughout the towers, and where the melted steel was reported to have been uncovered and seen, not to mention that WTC 7 had the same phenomena and had even less aluminum then the towers....Well it should be a no brainer when I say I lost respect for the NIST and feel they have no credibility or integrity.
If you or others feel that this is no big deal, then you are purposefully doing so in order to maintain your official CT intact in your own minds, and that;s fine by me as I made my point, and made some of you look foolish in the process of doing so.

Now the primary objective of the NIST investigation was to determine the cause of the WTC buildings collapses, and NIST should have conducted a forensic examination of the full body of evidence and this includes the molten steel. GZ was a crime scene, wasn't it?
And because many credible eyewitnesses, including firemen who were on the scene that day, reported that they heard and saw explosions,NIST should have investigated this without any bias, but they again chose to downplay these reports that were as widespread as the reports of the molten steel "running like little rivers".

The NIST investigators should have viewed their testimony of the molten steel and the explosions as hard evidence and considered this a starting point in its investigation, but they didn't because NIST assumed, from the outset that the hijacked planes solely responsible for the demise of the 2 TTers. They took it for granted that the plane impacts set in motion a chain of events that led all the way to "catastrophic structural failure". They even stated this explicitly in their Executive Summary

“The tragic consequences of the September 11, 2001 attacks were directly attributable to the fact that terrorists flew large jet-fuel laden commercial airliners into the WTC towers. Buildings for use by the general population are not designed to withstand attacks of such severity; building codes do not require building designs to consider aircraft impact".
NIST NCSTAR 1, WTC Investigation, Preface, xxxi.

Because NIST never even entertained the possibility of a planned demolition, or infiltration of the buildings by "terrorists" it never bothered to look for evidence of any.
This despite the WTC being bombed in 1993.
NIST was NOT going to go there, and I'll bet they were "encouraged" not to do so either.
There's no fucking way the head people at NIST were going to go against the Bush administration, and the many in it who were powerful enough to replace them, end their careers, or worse... risk some unfortunate "accident" befalling them or their families.
I just can't see the intelligent people within such a prestigious institution conducting the investigations in such a manner, and full of such glaring discrepancies, and highly questionable tactics, some "secret" that a lowly high school physics teacher forced this multi-million dollar financed agency to back track and have to admit they were wrong about the FF that indeed occurred at WTC 7.

Hundreds of people and reports about molten steel, some seen falling out of the window of one tower? All 3 wreckage piles confirmed to have molten steel UNDERNEATH them, but only 2 of the buildings had planes inside them? No obstacle was too great to overcome for NIST, they simply pretended all these people and what they saw didn't even exist. Close to the same number of credible people who saw and heard explosions? No problem there either....What people, what melted steel???
How convenient that they were forced to have to resort to computer simulation instead of real world testing of the remnants of the buildings, because someone saw to it that most of it was hauled away...
It never tested steel samples recovered from GZ for traces of explosives.
Their investigation included omissions of importance and wreak of of political interference
and pressure.
Not only were there eyewitness accounts of these things, but they also ignored 2 scientific papers that were published, one of them by FEMA that claimed and confirmed that sulfur residues on samples of WTC steel. This indicated the possibility that something else attacked the steel other then planes and jetfuel that day.
The possibility of this needed to be checked, if only just to rule it out but those in charge at NIST yet again, chose not to go there and pretended this didn't exist.

It's really telling when we have people come on here and confidently proclaim that nothing like this occurred or was never found or never confirmed and that somehow the responsibility of the investigation should have fallen to the people at GZ like firemen, rescue workers and others who were there to document the aftermath. This is dishonest and weakens their argument even further even without having to post all the things that I did a few pages back.

If some of you think that NIST conducted a credible investigation because they ignored these important things and instances and ignored all the hundreds of people that were witness to them, then have the nerve to use this and try to proclaim the views of others are a wild CT, you folks are only here to be antagonists and don't give a fuck about accuracy, honesty, credibility, or integrity.

This is akin to a crime scene having evidence that a gun was also used in the crime because gunshots were heard by witnesses and GSR (gun shot residue) or shell casings were found on site, but because this evidence would point to other suspects other then the one you were encouraged to suspect who you were told used a box cutter only, and who your CO's had in mind all along, (maybe even before the actual crime took place) then the shell casings and GSR were "lost" or ignored, and because of that, you feel you can declare "see there was no evidence" that a gun was used, so it just had to be the these guy/s.
The circumstances, the villains and the "evidence" were set up and easily confirmed because "we all saw the planes and the buildings collapsed!" and come hell or highwater that was the way any investigations and reports were going to go, but there is proof of evidence tampering.