The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[sparky]

Another startling fact, posted by those who claim Russia won the war, was even though Japan was completely beaten, Japan fought Russia until August 20th!

They didn't want their emperor executed, or their country communist

imagine that!

~S~

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Ya and all you have are opinion pieces while I have ACTUAL Government documents.

But not from ACTUAL top military>>>

The War Was Won Before Hiroshima—And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb Knew It

Adm. William Leahy, President Truman’s Chief of Staff, wrote in his 1950 memoir I Was There that “the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender.… in being the first to use it, we…adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.”

&&&

The commanding general of the US Army Air Forces, Henry “Hap” Arnold, gave a strong indication of his views in a public statement only eleven days after Hiroshima was attacked. Asked on August 17 by a New York Timesreporter whether the atomic bomb caused Japan to surrender, Arnold said that “the Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell, because the Japanese had lost control of their own air.

&&&
Adm. William “Bull” Halsey Jr., Commander of the US Third Fleet, stated publicly in 1946 that “the first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment…. It was a mistake to ever drop it…. [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it…”




&&&

Fleet Adm. Chester Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet, stated in a public address at the Washington Monument two months after the bombings that “the atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan…”


&&&


Gen. Dwight Eisenhower, for his part, stated in his memoirs that when notified by Secretary of War Henry Stimson of the decision to use atomic weapons, he “voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives…” He later publicly declared “…it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.”

&&&


Even the famous “hawk” Maj. Gen. Curtis LeMay, head of the Twenty-First Bomber Command, went public the month after the bombing, telling the press that “the atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.



~S~

All of which and more has been presented to the doddering old fool many times before on many other threads.

Again yu have never presented a single official document EVER.

I just did

so, we're 1 and 0

~S~

That is an opinion piece NOT an official document. Dumb ass.

 

[Unkotare]

For those who think that Imperial Japan was “just like” Nazi Germany, I suggest you read Israeli historian Dr. Ben-Ami Shillony’s book The Jews and the Japanese (Charles E. Tuttle Publishing, 1991). Shillony, a professor of Japanese history at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, devotes an entire chapter to documenting the fact that during WW II the Japanese not only saved thousands of Jews from the reach of the Nazis, over the protests of the Nazi government, but also ensured that Jews living in China were unmolested, among other friendly and protective actions (chapter 21). The Nazi government protested numerous times about Japan’s pro-Jewish policies, but Japan’s leaders ignored their protests.

By the way, here is what Dr. Shillony says about our decision to nuke Japan:

One may question the moral justification of dropping the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August 1945. They were dropped when Japan had already been devastated by massive conventional bombing and was on the brink of collapse, when its government was sending urgent appeals through Moscow to negotiate for peace, and when there was no longer any danger of a Japanese attack on other countries. The dropping of the atomic bombs was a clear case of indiscriminate killing, the type of behavior that the Allies had always condemned. It even enraged some of President Harry S. Truman’s top advisers. Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, the president’s representative on the Joint Chiefs of Staff, wrote in his diary at the time, “It is not a bomb. It is not an explosive. It is a poisonous thing that kills people by its deadly radioactive action. . . . In being the first to use it, we have adopted an ethical standard common to barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war by destroying women and children.” (page/location 1166, Kindle Edition)​

.

 

[Unkotare]

Ya and all you have are opinion pieces while I have ACTUAL Government documents.

But not from ACTUAL top military>>>

The War Was Won Before Hiroshima—And the Generals Who Dropped the Bomb Knew It

Adm. William Leahy, President Truman’s Chief of Staff, wrote in his 1950 memoir I Was There that “the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender.… in being the first to use it, we…adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.”

&&&

The commanding general of the US Army Air Forces, Henry “Hap” Arnold, gave a strong indication of his views in a public statement only eleven days after Hiroshima was attacked. Asked on August 17 by a New York Timesreporter whether the atomic bomb caused Japan to surrender, Arnold said that “the Japanese position was hopeless even before the first atomic bomb fell, because the Japanese had lost control of their own air.

&&&
Adm. William “Bull” Halsey Jr., Commander of the US Third Fleet, stated publicly in 1946 that “the first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment…. It was a mistake to ever drop it…. [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it…”




&&&

Fleet Adm. Chester Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet, stated in a public address at the Washington Monument two months after the bombings that “the atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military standpoint, in the defeat of Japan…”


&&&


Gen. Dwight Eisenhower, for his part, stated in his memoirs that when notified by Secretary of War Henry Stimson of the decision to use atomic weapons, he “voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and secondly because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives…” He later publicly declared “…it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.”

&&&


Even the famous “hawk” Maj. Gen. Curtis LeMay, head of the Twenty-First Bomber Command, went public the month after the bombing, telling the press that “the atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.



~S~

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[elektra]

They didn't want their emperor executed, or their country communist

imagine that!

~S~

so? Many people are arguing that Japan had no fight left, they were beat months before we dropped the bomb. Facts tell a different story. Japan fought the USSR until the 20th of August.

This proves they did not surrender because the became afraid that the USSR joined the war.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Whatever labored, embarrassing arguments one can make for the nuking of Hiroshima cannot be made for the nuking of Nagasaki just three days later. From my article "Did We Really Need to Use the Atomic Bomb Against Japan?":

On August 9, 1945, just three days after we nuked Hiroshima, and before Japan’s leaders had sufficient time to process and respond to our nuclear attack on Hiroshima, we dropped an atomic bomb on the city of Nagasaki, which was home to Japan’s largest Christian population. The atomic bombing of Nagasaki was even more inexcusable than the nuking of Hiroshima. . . .

On August 9, we nuked Nagasaki, just three days after Hiroshima, and hours after the Soviets began to maul the Japanese army in Manchuria,, and while Japan’s civilian leaders were understandably absorbed with trying to process what had happened to Hiroshima and with responding to the Soviet attack in Manchuria. Surely Truman and other high officials knew that three days was not enough time for Japan’s government to formulate a formal response to the unprecedented use of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and to the Soviet invasion in Manchuria. Even McGeorge Bundy, who helped Henry Stimson write his defense of the atomic bombing of Japan, acknowledged that Truman was too quick to nuke Nagasaki:​

"It is hard to see that much could have been lost if there had been more time between the two bombs. . . . Such a delay would have been relatively easy, and I think right." (https://miketgriffith.com/files/immoraluse.pdf)
​

The Japanese were not even able to get a scientific team to Hiroshima until August 7, the day after the attack. Meanwhile, Japan's leaders were getting conflicting, fragmentary information about what had happened in Hiroshima. Some Army officials were telling the government that the bombing of Hiroshima was merely a very large conventional bombing raid, and they were suppressing information about the kinds of wounds that had been inflicted. There was no Internet back then, no fax machines, no Skype.

Surely it was obscene for us to nuke Nagasaki just three days, 72 hours, after we had nuked Hiroshima.

Happy Surrender Day.
August 12 if you needed a reminder.

 

[Staidhup]

It’s easy for someone to play revisionist historian, especially if they don’t have any skin in the game. If Japan or Germany had the bomb they would have used it relentlessly. Japan waited, did not respond, for the war ministry’s position was until the last man, women, child, fall the war would not end and most importantly had ultimate control. The slaughter on both sides would have been beyond comprehension, far in excess of the lives lost resulting from the two bombs. My gut feeling is that The entire east would today be under communist control and their purges alone would have made the bombs child’s play.

 

[karpenter]

The Recurring Theme Of This Thread

WWII Was The Last Time Progs Loved America
Every Prog On This Thread Has Taken The Side Of The Enemy
In A War The Enemy Started
The Two Atomic Raids
Weren't Even The Deadliest Bombing Raids

 

[elektra]

6 more days until the anniversary of the last airman to die by japanese enemy pilots over japan, that will the 18th of August.

Japanese pilots, that would be Japanese veteran ace pilots.

 

[sparky]

They didn't want their emperor executed, or their country communist

imagine that!

~S~

so? Many people are arguing that Japan had no fight left, they were beat months before we dropped the bomb. Facts tell a different story. Japan fought the USSR until the 20th of August.

This proves they did not surrender because the became afraid that the USSR joined the war.

We shut the USSR out of surrender negotiations

Japan would not exist, because they would have been part of the USSR

and their emperor would have been publicly executed

Annihilation differs from unconditional surrender in said sense

~S~

 

[mikegriffith1]

Again yu have never presented a single official document EVER.

First off, he has presented you with documented statements by senior American military leaders that using the atomic bomb was unnecessary and wrong.

Second, **so what** if you have "official government documents"??? Government documents are often inaccurate and incomplete, and sometimes they're misleading and even fraudulent.

Anyway, I see a big part of the problem is that you and others are projecting the actions of part of the Japanese army onto most/all Japanese in that period. The vast majority of Japan's civilian leaders were good and decent men. They were aghast and ashamed when war-crimes tribunals revealed the atrocities committed by some Japanese forces.

Similarly, many senior Japanese military officers were good and decent men who did what they could to halt and punish war crimes when they learned of them. General Homma, for example, was very pro-American and exerted great efforts to ensure that Japanese rule in the Philippines was moderate and tolerant, but he was eventually overruled by hardliners above him. And General Homma was horrified when he heard the accounts of Japanese cruelty during the Bataan Death March at his trial. Given the structure of Japanese army command and operations, it is not at all surprising that he was unaware of the incidents of cruelty when they occurred. His HQ was hundreds of yards from any point of the march, and for long stretches of the march there were no acts of cruelty--in fact, at some halt points, Japanese soldiers gave the prisoners food and water and let them rest briefly.

Finally, it bears repeating that not all Japanese officers and soldiers committed war crimes. Many did not. The diaries of American and Allied soldiers in the Pacific contain numerous accounts of kindness and decency shown to them by Japanese soldiers. See, for example, Richard Aldrich's award-winning book The Far Away War: Personal Diaries of the Second World War in Asia and the Pacific.

 

[Picaro]

They didn't want their emperor executed, or their country communist

imagine that!

~S~

so? Many people are arguing that Japan had no fight left, they were beat months before we dropped the bomb. Facts tell a different story. Japan fought the USSR until the 20th of August.

This proves they did not surrender because the became afraid that the USSR joined the war.

Stalin didn't even declare war on Japan until we had already crushed it. All they did was rush to seize as much of it as possible. the bombs also sent a message to Mao and Stalin that we would use them if they sought to push us out.

In any case, Japan still had millions of soldiers under arms in Asia, so defeating the homeland was imperative.

 

[elektra]

General Homma, for example, was very pro-American and exerted great efforts to ensure that Japanese rule in the Philippines was moderate and tolerant, but he was eventually overruled by hardliners above him. And General Homma was horrified when he heard the accounts of Japanese cruelty during the Bataan Death March at his trial. Given the structure of Japanese army command and operations, it is not at all surprising that he was unaware of the incidents of cruelty when they occurred. His HQ was hundreds of yards from any point of the march, and for long stretches of the march there were no acts of cruelty--in fact, at some halt points, Japanese soldiers gave the prisoners food and water and let them rest briefly.

They were horrified? It was samurai culture and traditions they practiced, that was the horror. You will make the claim that the Japanese Army Generals knew nothing of their culture and traditions?

Pictures were sent back to Japan, to their parents! Who sent them to the local paper for publication!

The General knew nothing? Bullshit! The torture and horror even made the news papers!

 

[mikegriffith1]

so? Many people are arguing that Japan had no fight left, they were beat months before we dropped the bomb. Facts tell a different story. Japan fought the USSR until the 20th of August.

Oh, sheesh. Come on. In all but a few places, the Soviets mowed down the depleted, hungry Japanese army like a knife cutting through butter. Only in a few cases did Japanese forces manage to put up stiff resistance to the Soviet onslaught.

This proves they did not surrender because the became afraid that the USSR joined the war.

How do you figure that? Internal Japanese records make it clear that it was the Soviet invasion that finally pushed the hardliners into agreeing to surrender. This has been documented in numerous studies.

Stalin didn't even declare war on Japan until we had already crushed it. All they did was rush to seize as much of it as possible. the bombs also sent a message to Mao and Stalin that we would use them if they sought to push us out.

Truman never should have let the Soviets enter the Pacific War. That was a horrific act of cruelty that cost hundreds of thousands of lives. The Soviets murdered most of the tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers they took prisoner.

A few years later, Truman handed China over to Mao's Communists, who proceeded to murder at least 20 million Chinese people.

In any case, Japan still had millions of soldiers under arms in Asia, so defeating the homeland was imperative.

This is just obscene, inhumane nonsense. The ease with which the Soviets plowed through Japanese forces in Manchuria shows the depleted, pitiful state of the once powerful Japanese Kwantung Army.

Yes, the Japanese had just over 2 million men on the home islands. Yeah, and they had no air cover--none, zilch, zippo. The U.S. Navy was bombarding Japan's coastal cities at will, because the Japanese navy had ceased to function as any kind of a credible fighting force. The U.S. Air Force was bombing Japanese cities at will. The Japanese people were not getting enough food to maintain basic health. Most of those 2 million Japanese troops had no combat experience and were surviving on meager rations. Weeks before Truman decided to vaporize a defenseless city with an atomic bomb, the Japanese had been putting out peace feelers, and we knew all about those feelers and knew that Japan's only ironclad condition was the retention of the emperor.

 

[elektra]

Finally, it bears repeating that not all Japanese officers and soldiers committed war crimes. Many did not. The diaries of American and Allied soldiers in the Pacific contain numerous accounts of kindness and decency shown to them by Japanese soldiers. See, for example, Richard Aldrich's award-winning book The Far Away War: Personal Diaries of the Second World War in Asia and the Pacific.

It may be a good book, but it seems to paint a very picture than the one you speak of.
Ordinary Japanese should just abandon the ship whose Elites are just using the masses for last minute overtaxing before bailing.

The book also features the memoir of a New Zealand soldier working with a Fijian regiment who came across the bodies of two native women, pegged out on an earthen mound.

They had been "raped to death" by Japanese soldiers. Then they found a dead American soldier who had stakes driven through each shoulder and his hands cut off. "As we moved away again, one of my corporals said to me: "No more prisoners, turaga[sir]." I agreed with him.'

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Again yu have never presented a single official document EVER.

First off, he has presented you with documented statements by senior American military leaders that using the atomic bomb was unnecessary and wrong.

Second, **so what** if you have "official government documents"??? Government documents are often inaccurate and incomplete, and sometimes they're misleading and even fraudulent.

Anyway, I see a big part of the problem is that you and others are projecting the actions of part of the Japanese army onto most/all Japanese in that period. The vast majority of Japan's civilian leaders were good and decent men. They were aghast and ashamed when war-crimes tribunals revealed the atrocities committed by some Japanese forces.

Similarly, many senior Japanese military officers were good and decent men who did what they could to halt and punish war crimes when they learned of them. General Homma, for example, was very pro-American and exerted great efforts to ensure that Japanese rule in the Philippines was moderate and tolerant, but he was eventually overruled by hardliners above him. And General Homma was horrified when he heard the accounts of Japanese cruelty during the Bataan Death March at his trial. Given the structure of Japanese army command and operations, it is not at all surprising that he was unaware of the incidents of cruelty when they occurred. His HQ was hundreds of yards from any point of the march, and for long stretches of the march there were no acts of cruelty--in fact, at some halt points, Japanese soldiers gave the prisoners food and water and let them rest briefly.

Finally, it bears repeating that not all Japanese officers and soldiers committed war crimes. Many did not. The diaries of American and Allied soldiers in the Pacific contain numerous accounts of kindness and decency shown to them by Japanese soldiers. See, for example, Richard Aldrich's award-winning book The Far Away War: Personal Diaries of the Second World War in Asia and the Pacific.

The Government of Japan was not civilians at all the Army and Navy ran the Government. The Army was in charge and REFUSED to surrender even after 2 atomic bombs and when the Emperor over ruled them attempted a Coup to stop the surrender. As for those America Generals? NONE of them had anything to do with the Atomic Bombs and had no knowledge of the bomb until after it was dropped. NONE were involved in anyway with the decision to drop or not drop and MOST of them never served in the Pacific and had NO first hand experience with the Japanese. I have Documents from the JAPANESE that clearly shows the Government had NO INTENTION of surrendering and the Atomic Bombs 2 of them, convinced the Emperor to over rule the Military. You have OPINIONS from Generals not even involved in the war with Japan. I repeat provide an actual document from the Japanese or American Government that says anything you claim.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

so? Many people are arguing that Japan had no fight left, they were beat months before we dropped the bomb. Facts tell a different story. Japan fought the USSR until the 20th of August.

Oh, sheesh. Come on. In all but a few places, the Soviets mowed down the depleted, hungry Japanese army like a knife cutting through butter. Only in a few cases did Japanese forces manage to put up stiff resistance to the Soviet onslaught.

This proves they did not surrender because the became afraid that the USSR joined the war.

How do you figure that? Internal Japanese records make it clear that it was the Soviet invasion that finally pushed the hardliners into agreeing to surrender. This has been documented in numerous studies.

Stalin didn't even declare war on Japan until we had already crushed it. All they did was rush to seize as much of it as possible. the bombs also sent a message to Mao and Stalin that we would use them if they sought to push us out.

Truman never should have let the Soviets enter the Pacific War. That was a horrific act of cruelty that cost hundreds of thousands of lives. The Soviets murdered most of the tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers they took prisoner.

A few years later, Truman handed China over to Mao's Communists, who proceeded to murder at least 20 million Chinese people.

In any case, Japan still had millions of soldiers under arms in Asia, so defeating the homeland was imperative.

This is just obscene, inhumane nonsense. The ease with which the Soviets plowed through Japanese forces in Manchuria shows the depleted, pitiful state of the once powerful Japanese Kwantung Army.

Yes, the Japanese had just over 2 million men on the home islands. Yeah, and they had no air cover--none, zilch, zippo. The U.S. Navy was bombarding Japan's coastal cities at will, because the Japanese navy had ceased to function as any kind of a credible fighting force. The U.S. Air Force was bombing Japanese cities at will. The Japanese people were not getting enough food to maintain basic health. Most of those 2 million Japanese troops had no combat experience and were surviving on meager rations. Weeks before Truman decided to vaporize a defenseless city with an atomic bomb, the Japanese had been putting out peace feelers, and we knew all about those feelers and knew that Japan's only ironclad condition was the retention of the emperor.

The Hardliners REFUSED to surrender moron. It took the Emperor to order the surrender and then the Army staged a Coup to stop that.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

so? Many people are arguing that Japan had no fight left, they were beat months before we dropped the bomb. Facts tell a different story. Japan fought the USSR until the 20th of August.

Oh, sheesh. Come on. In all but a few places, the Soviets mowed down the depleted, hungry Japanese army like a knife cutting through butter. Only in a few cases did Japanese forces manage to put up stiff resistance to the Soviet onslaught.

This proves they did not surrender because the became afraid that the USSR joined the war.

How do you figure that? Internal Japanese records make it clear that it was the Soviet invasion that finally pushed the hardliners into agreeing to surrender. This has been documented in numerous studies.

Stalin didn't even declare war on Japan until we had already crushed it. All they did was rush to seize as much of it as possible. the bombs also sent a message to Mao and Stalin that we would use them if they sought to push us out.

Truman never should have let the Soviets enter the Pacific War. That was a horrific act of cruelty that cost hundreds of thousands of lives. The Soviets murdered most of the tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers they took prisoner.

A few years later, Truman handed China over to Mao's Communists, who proceeded to murder at least 20 million Chinese people.

In any case, Japan still had millions of soldiers under arms in Asia, so defeating the homeland was imperative.

This is just obscene, inhumane nonsense. The ease with which the Soviets plowed through Japanese forces in Manchuria shows the depleted, pitiful state of the once powerful Japanese Kwantung Army.

Yes, the Japanese had just over 2 million men on the home islands. Yeah, and they had no air cover--none, zilch, zippo. The U.S. Navy was bombarding Japan's coastal cities at will, because the Japanese navy had ceased to function as any kind of a credible fighting force. The U.S. Air Force was bombing Japanese cities at will. The Japanese people were not getting enough food to maintain basic health. Most of those 2 million Japanese troops had no combat experience and were surviving on meager rations. Weeks before Truman decided to vaporize a defenseless city with an atomic bomb, the Japanese had been putting out peace feelers, and we knew all about those feelers and knew that Japan's only ironclad condition was the retention of the emperor.

MORON, wanna know what the Japanese offered to "surrender"? I have the documents from the Japanese, they offered a Ceasefire, return to 41 start lines, No concessions in China, no occupation NO disarming and no consequences for the war.

 

[Markle]

This? Again? What a waste.

 

[Picaro]

General Homma, for example, was very pro-American and exerted great efforts to ensure that Japanese rule in the Philippines was moderate and tolerant, but he was eventually overruled by hardliners above him. And General Homma was horrified when he heard the accounts of Japanese cruelty during the Bataan Death March at his trial. Given the structure of Japanese army command and operations, it is not at all surprising that he was unaware of the incidents of cruelty when they occurred. His HQ was hundreds of yards from any point of the march, and for long stretches of the march there were no acts of cruelty--in fact, at some halt points, Japanese soldiers gave the prisoners food and water and let them rest briefly.

They were horrified? It was samurai culture and traditions they practiced, that was the horror. You will make the claim that the Japanese Army Generals knew nothing of their culture and traditions?

Pictures were sent back to Japan, to their parents! Who sent them to the local paper for publication!

The General knew nothing? Bullshit! The torture and horror even made the news papers!

He found two or three Jap Generals and for or so American Generals that said something he liked, and goes forth to proclaim this as evidence they all represented the views of the hundreds and thousands of the rest. They do the same thing when they run around claiming 'The Founders Were Atheists and Deists N Stuff' based on Frankiln, Jefferson, and Paine, never mind the some 5 thousand others who ran things in that era; they don't count when one is blathering a pet narrative.