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That's incorrect... Self-defense is an affirmative defense. Provided that the State can prove that GZ shot TM (a fact that I don't think is in question), the burden of proof is indeed on the accused to prove it was an act of self-defense.
True that following someone isn't a crime, neither is carrying a gun... But the two are axiomatic of someone who was looking for a confrontation. This is why I believe it will be so difficult for the defendant to sell self-defense to a jury.
Remember, it is not carrying a gun, disobeying police orders, nor following an individual that he's charged with, so it's probably not useful to point out that those acts are not illegal.
It's clear you picked up a big word 'affirmative defense' and still don't know what the hell you are talking about. This is a criminal trial. In a criminal trial the burden of proof is on the state, and the standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt.
Reasonable doubt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In an affirmative defense, the defendant affirms that the condition is occurring or has occurred but offers a defense that bars, or prevents, the plaintiff's claim. An affirmative defense is known, alternatively, as a justification, or an excuse, defense.[2] Consequently, affirmative defenses limit or excuse a defendant's criminal culpability or civil liability.[citation needed]
A clear illustration of an affirmative defense is self defense.[3] In its simplest form, a criminal defendant may be exonerated if he can demonstrate that he had an honest and reasonable belief that another's use of force was unlawful and that the defendant's conduct was necessary to protect himself.[4]
Well I do concur that one of us doesn't know what they're talking about... Enlighten me as to who the "he" is referred to in the bolded portion above?
WW - what do you believe GZ's motivation was to call the police, say the right buzzwords, and summon police if he didn't believe TM was suspicious? Why would he do that? Cry wolf? That wouldn't serve him well in the future. Not understanding what you think GZ was trying to do. Are you saying he was out prowling around looking for black youths to shoot? What?
I believe he found him suspicious, but that doesn't mean he was actually suspicious. Meaning he thought he was up to no good and thus contacted the police figuring they would find something on him. But as we now know he had nothing on him. Meaning just because someone believes something to be true doesn't make it so.
Just because someone defends themselves well enough to avoid being injured...doesn't mean they weren't defending themselves.
In fact, that is my goal in self-defense...to NOT get hurt.
George Zimmerman Head Injury | Zimmerman Injuries | Photos | Mediaite
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Thanks for the link...the ABC report was excellent. You can tell that they were going through great lengths to show they had vetted the photo of the cuts....I think they were kind of mocking NBC, because NBC not only didnt vet, but they actually edited audio to deceive their viewers. The only pictures they showed were from a distance at the station after Z had been cleaned up a little by paramedics.
What made Zimmerman follow martin? A couple of weeks before Trayvon, Zimmerman was driving down his street and as he was passing a neighbors house (that he knew well) he saw a young black male smoking a cigarette on this neighbors porch and the owner wasn't home. I don't know about any of you, but if someone is just lighting up on my porch when I'm not home, I would appreciate a call.
Source of this story?
I've been following the case for a hear and hadn't heard that story. I do remember reading about a break-in a few months before in the development where a couple of young youths (i.d. as black) had broken into a house and they got away - but were arrested a few days later.
A couple of weeks later, Z is driving down the street again and passes the same neighbors house and this time Trayvon was just standing in the middle of the same neighbors lawn. Now it was approaching dark and the neighbor is an elderly white male with no kids living at home. This is why Z became suspicious initially...add to it that it was raining and when everyone else is in the house out of the rain, this young teen is just standing in the middle of someone's lawn that Zimmerman knew.
Add to that the several recent robberies of young black teens in the precise area and it was cause for suspicion. if I'm not home and someone is just standing in the middle of my front lawn, i would be suspicious also, as would most people...you would want to know why this person is standing in the middle of my lawn or in the other case, burning one on my porch with no one home.
Just to take the other side of the discussion for questioning purposes...
I'm a member of the neighborhood watch for my community and have served on the HOA board. I see a youth in the neighborhood that I don't recognize, I also know which buttons to push to elicit a police response.
1. If I call the police and say there is an unknown individual walking down the street minding his own business...
or
2. If I call the police and say there is an unknown person acting suspicious, acting weird, maybe on drugs, and checking out the houses...
Which do you think will more likely produce a timely response from the police?
If you look at an overhead shot of the neighborhood the 7-11 are to the west of the northern edge of the development with the north entry near the center of the norther east/west portion. News reports have shown that the house in front of which Zimmerman first observed Martin is a known cut-through used by youths not wanting to walk toward the center for the development and then having to walk back to retrace the distance.
Was he really doing something suspicious? Or was Zimmerman just using the right buzzwords in his call?
>>>>
Sort of like masturbation?
IOU a neg in <30 min.
You know what, fuck you and your neg rep. Okay, I was at rep power 317 when I posted this, let's see what happens after I dare to challenge the mighty Sunshine.
Look, let's keep it real. GZ had no business even being in this position. I think it'll all come down to whether or not the jury will punish him for creating the environment that allowed this tragedy to occur in the first place. Basically, I think THAT is what is on trial here.
This is a good question...fact is I would be pissed if one of my relatives was killed by a gun in a fist fight. But in Florida, GZ was within his rights to use deadly force if he felt his life was in danger or that serious injury would occur. That is the law in Florida. Slamming someones head into concrete could definitely cause serious injury.
Nevertheless it should be heard by a jury, the details should come out. Someone died... the case should be examined extensively. Because someone died, he should have been arrested immediately, IMO also...plead your case...post bail and wait for trial.
It did not cause serious injury in this case.
Slamming a head into concrete CAN cause serious injury and that is all that is needed...sorry I dont make the laws.
I dont like it....but in Florida, he was within his rights...floridians should be very careful...the law is somewhat vague. With that in mind, one would be smarter to just go home instead of swinging for the head.
Look, let's keep it real. GZ had no business even being in this position. I think it'll all come down to whether or not the jury will punish him for creating the environment that allowed this tragedy to occur in the first place. Basically, I think THAT is what is on trial here.
Fair point, king. You are right...as it turns out, GZs suspicions were wrong. Trayvon went to the store, bought some skittles, was talking to his gf on the phone and then walking in pretty much a direct route to his dads fiances house.
I think the temporary stop that Trayvon had standing in the middle of GZs neighbors house was the cause for the initial suspicion. But again, as it turns out, Trayvon was not scoping out a house to rob or vandalize...GZs suspicion was wrong.
That said, he is a neighborhood watch captain and his suspicions wont always be correct. Trayvon could have simply asked why he was being followed and went about his day. He didnt do that. GZ wasnt breaking any laws either and did not deserve to be punched in the face either...as it turns out Trayvons suspicions were wrong also.
It did not cause serious injury in this case.
Slamming a head into concrete CAN cause serious injury and that is all that is needed...sorry I dont make the laws.
I dont like it....but in Florida, he was within his rights...floridians should be very careful...the law is somewhat vague. With that in mind, one would be smarter to just go home instead of swinging for the head.
This law will eventually be tested in court. What were they drinking/thinking when they made this law?
Look, let's keep it real. GZ had no business even being in this position. I think it'll all come down to whether or not the jury will punish him for creating the environment that allowed this tragedy to occur in the first place. Basically, I think THAT is what is on trial here.
Fair point, king. You are right...as it turns out, GZs suspicions were wrong. Trayvon went to the store, bought some skittles, was talking to his gf on the phone and then walking in pretty much a direct route to his dads fiances house.
I think the temporary stop that Trayvon had standing in the middle of GZs neighbors house was the cause for the initial suspicion. But again, as it turns out, Trayvon was not scoping out a house to rob or vandalize...GZs suspicion was wrong.
That said, he is a neighborhood watch captain and his suspicions wont always be correct. Trayvon could have simply asked why he was being followed and went about his day. He didnt do that. GZ wasnt breaking any laws either and did not deserve to be punched in the face either...as it turns out Trayvons suspicions were wrong also.
we do not know if zimmermans suspicions was wrong or right
Fair point, king. You are right...as it turns out, GZs suspicions were wrong. Trayvon went to the store, bought some skittles, was talking to his gf on the phone and then walking in pretty much a direct route to his dads fiances house.
I think the temporary stop that Trayvon had standing in the middle of GZs neighbors house was the cause for the initial suspicion. But again, as it turns out, Trayvon was not scoping out a house to rob or vandalize...GZs suspicion was wrong.
That said, he is a neighborhood watch captain and his suspicions wont always be correct. Trayvon could have simply asked why he was being followed and went about his day. He didnt do that. GZ wasnt breaking any laws either and did not deserve to be punched in the face either...as it turns out Trayvons suspicions were wrong also.
we do not know if zimmermans suspicions was wrong or right
Lol...true, but Zimmerman didnt recognize the fellow and didnt know that his fathers fiance was the house Trayvon was enroute to...he thought he was an outsider looking for trouble in a strange complex, so he was wrong about that because he learned it afterwards.
However, in a sense, he was right also, because it turns out Trayvon punches and bashes heads of neighborhood watch people. He was a person who punched first and asked questions later....and of course the boasting of drugs, guns and fighting came out afterwards.
So Trayvon was trouble, but he was also enroute to a townhouse of someone he knew and that was expecting him.
Look, let's keep it real. GZ had no business even being in this position. I think it'll all come down to whether or not the jury will punish him for creating the environment that allowed this tragedy to occur in the first place. Basically, I think THAT is what is on trial here.
Fair point, king. You are right...as it turns out, GZs suspicions were wrong. Trayvon went to the store, bought some skittles, was talking to his gf on the phone and then walking in pretty much a direct route to his dads fiances house.
I think the temporary stop that Trayvon had standing in the middle of GZs neighbors house was the cause for the initial suspicion. But again, as it turns out, Trayvon was not scoping out a house to rob or vandalize...GZs suspicion was wrong.
That said, he is a neighborhood watch captain and his suspicions wont always be correct. Trayvon could have simply asked why he was being followed and went about his day. He didnt do that. GZ wasnt breaking any laws either and did not deserve to be punched in the face either...as it turns out Trayvons suspicions were wrong also.
we do not know if zimmermans suspicions was wrong or right
Fair point, king. You are right...as it turns out, GZs suspicions were wrong. Trayvon went to the store, bought some skittles, was talking to his gf on the phone and then walking in pretty much a direct route to his dads fiances house.
I think the temporary stop that Trayvon had standing in the middle of GZs neighbors house was the cause for the initial suspicion. But again, as it turns out, Trayvon was not scoping out a house to rob or vandalize...GZs suspicion was wrong.
That said, he is a neighborhood watch captain and his suspicions wont always be correct. Trayvon could have simply asked why he was being followed and went about his day. He didnt do that. GZ wasnt breaking any laws either and did not deserve to be punched in the face either...as it turns out Trayvons suspicions were wrong also.
we do not know if zimmermans suspicions was wrong or right
We won't know because he was followed for walking along eating skittles, drinking tea and that was deemed "suspicious." Now he's dead. Would this person be alive if it was a white woman, 40 years old, wearing a dress and eating those same skittles and tea?
[MENTION=9370]Jon[/MENTION]-berzerk...
Something curious to me is when Zimmerman is describing to police the initial face to face confrontation with Trayvon. He tells the police that when Trayvon asked him "Do you got a problem?" that his first instinct was to reach for his phone, but watch how he shows the police he was reaching for his phone...it appears to me that he although he tells the cop he is going for his phone, that his hand is being cupped as if he was actually going for his gun....then GZ says that he forgot what pocket his phone was in.
Whats curious to me is that while GZ is chasing someone who appears to be suspicious and then is suddenly approached by that person is it possible that he panicked and reached for the gun or appeared to reach for a gun and then Trayvon charged him? Because that kind of changes a few things. GZ tells the cop that he was punched just after he was reaching for his "phone".
Just trying to see all sides to this...if trayvon doubles back on someone he knows is following him and then asks the follower if theres is a problem and then the follower immediately reaches for his pocket or holster, then maybe trayvon rushed him because he didnt know what GZ was grabbing for.
See the link below...at about the 1:16 mark he begins to describe the point I am referring to.
Also, testa, Santa Fe, animallover and tink....would be interested in your take also on this. Is Mr Z telling the cops that he was reaching for his phone when he was actually reaching for his gun?
George Zimmerman's Police Interview after Trayvon Martin Shooting - YouTube
