The Only Way To Deal With A Situation Like Orlando

[OKTexas]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

Or arm the victims to start with. It was a gun free zone.

In a crowd density like that club it could take too much time to get an angle for a clean shot.

Sounds cruel, but sometimes you have to SHOOT THROUGH the hostage to stop the bad guy.

Most hand guns lack the penetration to make that effective, especially if you're using self defense rounds like hollow points.

 

[DarkFury]

Given proper military training...

... it might be possible, but...

.. you willin' to be the first to go unarmed...

... up against an AR-15?

If the crowd collapses on the shooter, the few hurried shots he gets off will be less accurate and he can't protect his back and flanks, I'm not saying single individuals should try to take them head on. If 40 rushed him at the same time from all angles he would be down in seconds. If you run, you just give them a clear field of fire where they can take time to aim.

Only if the shooter has no training and stands in the middle. If he is in a corner the idea fails. Security staff was not allowed guns there.
So can you really call them security staff or primary targets?

 

[Lipush]

That's all fine and dandy to say from behind the computer screen, but being there, your primal instinct is either to run for your life, or completely freeze. It takes initiative, life experience, or high training to pounce on a terrorist unarmed.

No, it takes training, nothing high about it. I always told my people in military units, training is what takes over when your mind takes a vacation. This method can be easily taught to children from Jr. High up because at that age a group could easily take down an adult, but it requires consistent reinforcement. The choice is to let him get off a few shots before you take him down, or give him space and time to reload at least 4 times like the guy in Orlando did.

I realize that, but not all people are set up that way.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

Or arm the victims to start with. It was a gun free zone.

In a crowd density like that club it could take too much time to get an angle for a clean shot.

Sounds cruel, but sometimes you have to SHOOT THROUGH the hostage to stop the bad guy.

Most hand guns lack the penetration to make that effective, especially if you're using self defense rounds like hollow points.

I'm sure if you shoot enough times, those points won't matter.

 

[OKTexas]

Given proper military training...

... it might be possible, but...

.. you willin' to be the first to go unarmed...

... up against an AR-15?

If the crowd collapses on the shooter, the few hurried shots he gets off will be less accurate and he can't protect his back and flanks, I'm not saying single individuals should try to take them head on. If 40 rushed him at the same time from all angles he would be down in seconds. If you run, you just give them a clear field of fire where they can take time to aim.

Dear OKTexas
From your point and responses, it seems it would take training in self-defense as well as group defense.
Not a bad idea. if we all had this training AND PEOPLE KNEW IT
then that might add to the deterrent effect as knowing people carry guns.

In Texas people know that citizens carry their own guns so they only go after targets they can isolate and get around that.

Now, you train EVERYONE in police and military tactics, and maybe that will increase deterrence.
People would try to avoid the same traps that military and police have to watch out for.
it could help with awareness and prevention on multiple levels.
Good suggestion, we should add this to community relations and police training,
and public school outreach to make sure people know how to defend themselves and work with authorities.

Training and/or being alert to the situation.

Few days ago, two shooters opened fire at s crowded restaurant in Tel Aviv. 4 were murdered and at least 10 others critically injured. There were two shooters, not one, like in this case, and they waited at least 10 minutes from the moment they got into the restaurant from when they started shooting (so to catch people less alert to them). Yet the casualties were minimal, thankfully.

So why is that? thanks to civilian alert, the same which they hoped to avoid. A civilian pounced one one of the terrorists with bare hands, unarmed, grabbed a chair and smashed it on his head, after taking two bullets to his stomach. Others took seconds to realize what is going on and some bailed, some chased the terrorists once they began fleeing. Police was there in no time.

In Israel there is a very immediate response by authorities, and civilians are more practices and have very quick reflexes and time response. With people who are NOT used to those kind of things happening on daily basis, it is natural that they won't immediately know how to deal. One cannot expect them to, really.

So it's easy, talking from behind a computer screen

Are you dense or what. Do you not understand the concept that we train people how to respond, just like they do in Israel?

 

[aaronleland]

I agree it would have saved lives if people had that instinct, but that's not the case with most people. Hell, thousands more died on 9/11 because hundreds of airplane passengers were being held hostage with box cutters. This man had an AR-15.

 

[OKTexas]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

Or arm the victims to start with. It was a gun free zone.

In a crowd density like that club it could take too much time to get an angle for a clean shot.

The gunman didn't have any trouble getting an angle. Besides, if enough are armed, one has to be close enough when he enters.

Ok, you keep thinking that, I'm telling you what will work to minimize causalities 100% of the time.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

Or arm the victims to start with. It was a gun free zone.

In a crowd density like that club it could take too much time to get an angle for a clean shot.

The gunman didn't have any trouble getting an angle. Besides, if enough are armed, one has to be close enough when he enters.

Ok, you keep thinking that, I'm telling you what will work to minimize causalities 100% of the time.

And you're not wrong. It would minimize casualties. So would actually arming the victims, since they'd be able to gun down the lowlife as soon as he enters the building and raises his gun.

 

[S.J.]

No gun free zones and open or concealed carry in all states would cause anyone to think twice about opening fire on a crowd of people. We never hear about any of these creeps going into a biker bar and opening fire, do we?

 

[OKTexas]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

In most situations this would work. The death toll wold be far lower. The problem with it is when they attack soft targets like these they do so for a reason, and that is the people already have a victim mentality so remain victims.

Proper training could easily overcome that.

 

[Steve_McGarrett]

A good accurately thrown bottle of Coors to the head would have distracted the shooter enough to overwhelm him quickly.

 

[JimBowie1958]

DONALD J. TRUMP STATEMENT REGARDING THE TRAGIC TERRORIST ATTACK IN ORLANDO, FLORIDA

Last night, our nation was attacked by a radical Islamic terrorist. It was the worst terrorist attack on our soil since 9/11, and the second of its kind in 6 months. My deepest sympathy and support goes out to the victims, the wounded, and their families.

In his remarks today, President Obama disgracefully refused to even say the words 'Radical Islam'. For that reason alone, he should step down.

If Hillary Clinton, after this attack, still cannot say the two words 'Radical Islam' she should get out of this race for the Presidency.

If we do not get tough and smart real fast, we are not going to have a country anymore. Because our leaders are weak, I said this was going to happen – and it is only going to get worse. I am trying to save lives and prevent the next terrorist attack. We can't afford to be politically correct anymore.

The terrorist, Omar Mir Saddique Mateen, is the son of an immigrant from Afghanistan who openly published his support for the Afghanistani Taliban and even tried to run for President of Afghanistan. According to Pew, 99% of people in Afghanistan support oppressive Sharia Law.

We admit more than 100,000 lifetime migrants from the Middle East each year. Since 9/11, hundreds of migrants and their children have been implicated in terrorism in the United States. Hillary Clinton wants to dramatically increase admissions from the Middle East, bringing in many hundreds of thousands during a first term – and we will have no way to screen them, pay for them, or prevent the second generation from radicalizing.

We need to protect all Americans, of all backgrounds and all beliefs, from Radical Islamic Terrorism - which has no place in an open and tolerant society.

Radical Islam advocates hate for women, gays, Jews, Christians and all Americans. I am going to be a President for all Americans, and I am going to protect and defend all Americans. We are going to make America SAFE again and great again for everyone.

- Donald J. Trump

 

[JimBowie1958]

A good accurately thrown bottle of Coors to the head would have distracted the shooter enough to overwhelm him quickly.

Why does it have to be Coors?

You are so discriminatory.

I would feel much better throwing a bottle of Mescal, aside from the damage caused by sharp glass, the dude would be covered in what is effectively paint remover.

 

[JimBowie1958]

And you're not wrong. It would minimize casualties. So would actually arming the victims, since they'd be able to gun down the lowlife as soon as he enters the building and raises his gun.

But, but, but guns are EEEEEVVVVVIIIIILLLLL ! ! ! ! ! ! !

lol

 

[emilynghiem]

No gun free zones and open or concealed carry in all states would cause anyone to think twice about opening fire on a crowd of people. We never hear about any of these creeps going into a biker bar and opening fire, do we?

Hey S.J. I think you've got it, we need the OPPOSITE:
FREE GUN ZONES

 

[OKTexas]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

Or arm the victims to start with. It was a gun free zone.

In a crowd density like that club it could take too much time to get an angle for a clean shot.

The gunman didn't have any trouble getting an angle. Besides, if enough are armed, one has to be close enough when he enters.

Ok, you keep thinking that, I'm telling you what will work to minimize causalities 100% of the time.

And you're not wrong. It would minimize casualties. So would actually arming the victims, since they'd be able to gun down the lowlife as soon as he enters the building and raises his gun.

Just seeing someone raising a gun in a crowd doesn't justify shooting them, it could be an undercover cop seeing something you don't. You obviously haven't had much training.

 

[OKTexas]

No gun free zones and open or concealed carry in all states would cause anyone to think twice about opening fire on a crowd of people. We never hear about any of these creeps going into a biker bar and opening fire, do we?

Most states don't allow firearms in bars, licensed or not.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Just seeing someone raising a gun in a crowd doesn't justify shooting them, it could be an undercover cop seeing something you don't. You obviously haven't had much training.

Remember the black guy that got tackled and wrestled to the ground by a moron who thought he saw a gun on the guy?

He was a legal carrier with a CCL.

 

[S.J.]

A good accurately thrown bottle of Coors to the head would have distracted the shooter enough to overwhelm him quickly.

Why does it have to be Coors?

You are so discriminatory.

I would feel much better throwing a bottle of Mescal, aside from the damage caused by sharp glass, the dude would be covered in what is effectively paint remover.

Jack Daniels.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

Or arm the victims to start with. It was a gun free zone.

In a crowd density like that club it could take too much time to get an angle for a clean shot.

The gunman didn't have any trouble getting an angle. Besides, if enough are armed, one has to be close enough when he enters.

Ok, you keep thinking that, I'm telling you what will work to minimize causalities 100% of the time.

And you're not wrong. It would minimize casualties. So would actually arming the victims, since they'd be able to gun down the lowlife as soon as he enters the building and raises his gun.

Just seeing someone raising a gun in a crowd doesn't justify shooting them, it could be an undercover cop seeing something you don't. You obviously haven't had much training.

You're right, I've had zero training. So uh, how many cops carry an AR-15?