The Only Way To Deal With A Situation Like Orlando

[OKTexas]

Just seeing someone raising a gun in a crowd doesn't justify shooting them, it could be an undercover cop seeing something you don't. You obviously haven't had much training.

Remember the black guy that got tackled and wrestled to the ground by a moron who thought he saw a gun on the guy?

He was a legal carrier with a CCL.

A holstered firearm is not a threat, people need to learn that.

 

[JimBowie1958]

No gun free zones and open or concealed carry in all states would cause anyone to think twice about opening fire on a crowd of people. We never hear about any of these creeps going into a biker bar and opening fire, do we?

Most states don't allow firearms in bars, licensed or not.

It is in Floriduh, but not Virginia

Florida Gun Law | All You Need to Know About Carrying a Gun in Florida carry
For the most part you can take your firearm almost anywhere you go, so long as it stays concealed. There are some very specific places that you cannot take a firearm even if you are lawfully carrying it in a concealed manner. The Florida legislature has forbidden concealed firearm or weapon carry in the following places:

1. A place of nuisance (house of prostitution or gang activity)
2. Any police department, sheriff's office, or highway patrol station
3. Any detention facility, prison, or jail
4. Any courthouse or courtroom
5. Any polling place
6. Any meeting used by a county, school board, municipality, or special district
7. Any meeting of the legislature or committees
8. Any school, college, or professional athletic event
9. Any elementary or secondary school
10. Any career center
11. Any establishment that serves alcoholic beverages as its main purpose
12. Any college or university facility
13. Any airport
14. Anywhere federal law prohibits the carrying of firearms

New VA Gun Law Allows “Guns In Bars” - Virginia Criminal Defense
August 5, 2010

Legislation that took effect this week, known as the “guns in bars” measure now allows Virginians to carry their firearms into bars as long as they aren’t drinking. Just one in many gun laws taking effect across the country, this one has almost made it on the books several times before only to be vetoed.

Governor Mc Donnell made it official after his predecessor had stopped the measure in its tracks twice before. According to the Washington Post, former Governor Timothy Kaine, a Democrat, vetoed the “guns in bars” measure two times in the wake of the Virginia Tech massacre of 2007.
Now, however, Virginians can carry their weapons with them, even in to bars and restaurants, as long as they aren’t drinking.


One of the very real reasons I live in Virginia.

 

[S.J.]

No gun free zones and open or concealed carry in all states would cause anyone to think twice about opening fire on a crowd of people. We never hear about any of these creeps going into a biker bar and opening fire, do we?

Most states don't allow firearms in bars, licensed or not.

You think there aren't any guns in biker bars?

 

[aaronleland]

Or arm the victims to start with. It was a gun free zone.

In a crowd density like that club it could take too much time to get an angle for a clean shot.

The gunman didn't have any trouble getting an angle. Besides, if enough are armed, one has to be close enough when he enters.

Ok, you keep thinking that, I'm telling you what will work to minimize causalities 100% of the time.

And you're not wrong. It would minimize casualties. So would actually arming the victims, since they'd be able to gun down the lowlife as soon as he enters the building and raises his gun.

Just seeing someone raising a gun in a crowd doesn't justify shooting them, it could be an undercover cop seeing something you don't. You obviously haven't had much training.

Another thing people aren't considering in this particular situation when they said more guns would have helped is that it was obviously a very crowded club. I'm not sure a bunch of untrained people shooting across the club would have made the situation much better. How do you even tell who the bad guy is at that point?

 

[OKTexas]

In a crowd density like that club it could take too much time to get an angle for a clean shot.

The gunman didn't have any trouble getting an angle. Besides, if enough are armed, one has to be close enough when he enters.

Ok, you keep thinking that, I'm telling you what will work to minimize causalities 100% of the time.

And you're not wrong. It would minimize casualties. So would actually arming the victims, since they'd be able to gun down the lowlife as soon as he enters the building and raises his gun.

Just seeing someone raising a gun in a crowd doesn't justify shooting them, it could be an undercover cop seeing something you don't. You obviously haven't had much training.

You're right, I've had zero training. So uh, how many cops carry an AR-15?

Many.

 

[S.J.]

Businesses should be able to hire armed security. Any business. They don't have to be high profile, they can look like a customer, no one would know. Sort of like air marshals.

 

[OKTexas]

No gun free zones and open or concealed carry in all states would cause anyone to think twice about opening fire on a crowd of people. We never hear about any of these creeps going into a biker bar and opening fire, do we?

Most states don't allow firearms in bars, licensed or not.

You think there aren't any guns in biker bars?

Not legally.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Another thing people aren't considering in this particular situation when they said more guns would have helped is that it was obviously a very crowded club. I'm not sure a bunch of untrained people shooting across the club would have made the situation much better. How do you even tell who the bad guy is at that point?

In this case the bad guy is the one with an inappropriate over powered weapon, obviously not concealable, who is deliberately shooting people indiscriminately.

Or maybe he is just the ass hole aiming at you.

 

[JimBowie1958]

No gun free zones and open or concealed carry in all states would cause anyone to think twice about opening fire on a crowd of people. We never hear about any of these creeps going into a biker bar and opening fire, do we?

Most states don't allow firearms in bars, licensed or not.

You think there aren't any guns in biker bars?

Not legally.

I dont think the two words 'biker' and 'legally' often belong in the same sentence together.

 

[OKTexas]

In a crowd density like that club it could take too much time to get an angle for a clean shot.

The gunman didn't have any trouble getting an angle. Besides, if enough are armed, one has to be close enough when he enters.

Ok, you keep thinking that, I'm telling you what will work to minimize causalities 100% of the time.

And you're not wrong. It would minimize casualties. So would actually arming the victims, since they'd be able to gun down the lowlife as soon as he enters the building and raises his gun.

Just seeing someone raising a gun in a crowd doesn't justify shooting them, it could be an undercover cop seeing something you don't. You obviously haven't had much training.

Another thing people aren't considering in this particular situation when they said more guns would have helped is that it was obviously a very crowded club. I'm not sure a bunch of untrained people shooting across the club would have made the situation much better. How do you even tell who the bad guy is at that point?

Agree, that's why I said the best option is for the crowd to collapse on the shooter, he could be taken down is seconds with no friendly fire causalities.

 

[OKTexas]

Another thing people aren't considering in this particular situation when they said more guns would have helped is that it was obviously a very crowded club. I'm not sure a bunch of untrained people shooting across the club would have made the situation much better. How do you even tell who the bad guy is at that point?

In this case the bad guy is the one with an inappropriate over powered weapon, obviously not concealable, who is deliberately shooting people indiscriminately.

Or maybe he is just the ass hole aiming at you.

There are short barreled AR's with collapsible stocks that can be easily concealed under a shirt or jacket.

 

[S.J.]

No gun free zones and open or concealed carry in all states would cause anyone to think twice about opening fire on a crowd of people. We never hear about any of these creeps going into a biker bar and opening fire, do we?

Most states don't allow firearms in bars, licensed or not.

You think there aren't any guns in biker bars?

Not legally.

Legal or not, the shooter isn't gonna take the chance.

 

[S.J.]

How about if we just keep muslims out of the country?

 

[BULLDOG]

Given proper military training...

... it might be possible, but...

.. you willin' to be the first to go unarmed...

... up against an AR-15?

If the crowd collapses on the shooter, the few hurried shots he gets off will be less accurate and he can't protect his back and flanks, I'm not saying single individuals should try to take them head on. If 40 rushed him at the same time from all angles he would be down in seconds. If you run, you just give them a clear field of fire where they can take time to aim.

Dear OKTexas
From your point and responses, it seems it would take training in self-defense as well as group defense.
Not a bad idea. if we all had this training AND PEOPLE KNEW IT
then that might add to the deterrent effect as knowing people carry guns.

In Texas people know that citizens carry their own guns so they only go after targets they can isolate and get around that.

Now, you train EVERYONE in police and military tactics, and maybe that will increase deterrence.
People would try to avoid the same traps that military and police have to watch out for.
it could help with awareness and prevention on multiple levels.
Good suggestion, we should add this to community relations and police training,
and public school outreach to make sure people know how to defend themselves and work with authorities.

Hell, The police aren't even properly trained in police or military tactics.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Remember that community college shooting? That guy just walked around the room killing people while everyone sat there

The average person is a sheep and will not take initiative.

 

[westwall]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

In most situations this would work. The death toll wold be far lower. The problem with it is when they attack soft targets like these they do so for a reason, and that is the people already have a victim mentality so remain victims.

Proper training could easily overcome that.

Agreed. The problem is getting them to take the training.

 

[waltky]

The LGBT crowd must be a pretty docile group...

... apparently nobody had a gun...

... even thought Florida is a...

... fairly lenient state when it comes to gun ownership.

 

[August West]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

Or arm the victims to start with. It was a gun free zone.

If it was a "gun free zone" where did the bullets come from?

 

[LoneLaugher]

If this place has nothing else, it has a shitload of self appointed experts.

 

[ThunderKiss1965]

This may sound counter intuitive but the only way to save lives when a gunman opens fire in a crowd is for the crowd to collapse on them and take them down and never give them a chance to reload. No shooter would get off more than a few rounds if people were taught to respond in this manner.

You thoughts?

It take intensive training to ignore the instinctive reaction to duck or run away. Most people can never get rid of it.