CDZ The Orlando Mass Shooting and what can we learn from it?

[Coyote]

All well and good....but Orlando was radical Islam. Nothing more and nothing less. It's past time to address the problem

How would you address it?

Would you address Christian homophobic extremism in the same way?

And where is the organized violence against gays coming from Christians.....?

There is no organized violence against gays coming from Muslims in the US either. It's individuals, like Rudolph and Mateen who choose to act on their hate. Three are plenty of preachers though (and Imams) who spout anti-gay rhetoric.

 

[Coyote]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

Secularism is what made this spinning rock a peaceful place to live for human beings.

The more a society shoots far from it, the worse it gets, and the more people around the world suffer the consequences.

So the main question here is; do we have the right to impose our beliefs on others, if their ways are damaging ours?

Would this be "democratic"?

This is where the big struggle is imo.

Because this guy who just recently shot 100s of people, was a lone wolf, that is correct, but didnt just woke up one day and decided to pledge to ISIS and act.

He was "marginalized" over time, by very obvious sources.

Yes, got to choose the battles you are fighting very carefully
But worst thing to do would be; not to fight em...

You mean the secularism of the nazis and communists...sociailism has murdered over 100 million people around the world...ini modern times...not in the Middle Ages......secularists with modern educations and univerisities and modern governments....murdered 100 million people......

That's an extreme - there is a lot of room between that and hyper-religiousity. For example, Europe's secularism that practices religious tolerance under a secular government.

 

[Coyote]

A hateful ideology killed those folks in Orlando. The same ideology killed folks in Paris, California, and countless other places around the World.

To suggest any link between a hateful religious ideology and attacks by those who are mentally deranged is a false analogy.

Radical Islam must be stopped. Those on the left must choose between innocents such as those murdered in Orlando and radical Islam. It really is that simple.

How is it false? ISIS is excellent at recruiting unbalanced individuals.

 

[Coyote]

I saw a documentary several years ago about 9/11. A young American Muslim kid was interviewed who had lost his father in the attack. The young man was asked if he thought the hijackers regretted that his Muslim father was one of the victims.

The Kid says..."No...they don't regret my father died at all. They hate all Americans and want us all dead. They also hate Muslims who do not share their views."

Those of you on the left in America, you must decide between the innocents killed in Orlando, Paris, California, and around the World, or radical Islam. There is no other choice.

Perhaps, but that's a false choice that ignores all these other lone wolf attacks. If it's a Muslim, it's automatically assumed to be ideologically driven, even if the man is speaking to voices in his head.

The real issue, is how to we prevent ISIS from recruiting vulnerable people and how do we identify those who might be dangerous, regardless of their religion?

 

[pismoe]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

----------------------------------- 2 words --- Go Trump !! just a short comment Coyote .

 

[Coyote]

A hateful ideology killed those folks in Orlando. The same ideology killed folks in Paris, California, and countless other places around the World.

To suggest any link between a hateful religious ideology and attacks by those who are mentally deranged is a false analogy.

Yep. Of course it's false.

That's why people do it as their very intent is this false comparison, and they do so in order to distract away from the ideology they are trying to defend. This is not the product of an honest inquiry into the situation, but an intentionally false equivalency aimed at obfuscating, instead.

So what do you suggest be done in the US to combat this ideology - the religion of Islam?

 

[Coyote]

He was well within his Constitutional rights to buy the weapons. Whether legal or illegal some will take advantage of our freedoms to hurt others. It's just a sad fact of life. I'd prefer our rights not be limited by the few who would use them against us.

I wrote he should have been flagged within the system meaning the FBI and ATF could have been notified when he bought the weapons so they could monitor him.

I am not writing he should have been denied the right to purchase.

I'm sure they were notified. Notice how quickly he was identified by the FBI, and his name was spread across the news. Unfortunately it wasn't enough to prevent this tragedy.

If they were notified they failed in my eyes.

The time between the purchase and attacks was enough time to investigate in my opinion and this might have been stopped.

Two problems though...being notified isn't enough, something has to be uncovered to support some sort of link and warrent extra survielence etc. I also don't think there are any procedures in place to flag legal gun purchases and if there were, it would be seen as infringing on the rights of gun owners.

We already have federally mandated background checks...as the FBI guy pointed out on the news...if you are a felon, an illegal immigrant or adjudicated mentally ill, you are flagged and can't buy a gun......

Mass shooter are normal until they commit the act and pass all of the gun control laws that we have or that the anti gunners want.....new laws won't stop mass shooters..they obey all the gun laws you pass.....or they steal their guns....

That's a huge loophole. For example - there was little doubt the Sandy Hook shooter and the Aurora Theatre shooter, and the one who shot Gabby Giffords were severely mentally ill.

 

[320 Years of History]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame?

Minimized and reduced, surely. "Prevented?" Only insofar as the minimization efforts prevent individual events, such as the one prevented last weekend in Los Angeles. And therein lies the dilemma. The ways and means used to identify, detect and interrupt a whole host of violent acts and perpetrators -- terrorist or "simple" -- need to be kept secret in order to be effective.

Of course, the would be perpetrators of those deeds do know they were thwarted, but they often don't know precisely how, except, of course, if their plans and planning methods allow only one or two possible means of detection. Thus, we, the innocent observers, don't generally become privy to the actual nature and extent of heinous crimes that our government has successfully interdicts; however, when it's obvious to both our security forces and their opponents just how and why we were successful, sure, either side can let everyone else know about the halted violence.

The dilemma above leaves folks outside the "need to know" circle of professionals with an additional quandary of our own: can we content ourselves with the presumption that our government is doing the best it can and that as non-experts or "insiders" with access to "secret" information on matters of crime, terrorism, violent offender psychology, etc., we should rely on our government's attestation that it's doing the best it can to combat violence like the "Pulse" massacre? Sure we can with hindsight criticize and talk about what should have been done, but so can the folks who are charged with doing the best they can to prevent "whatever" from happening. In my experience, prior to an event's occurrence rarely has there been any plausible and practical basis for having done (or not) "what should (should not) have been done."

Terrorism, even though we don't have a precise meaning for that term, aims to refute the primary objective of state security agencies and employees. The fact of the matter in my mind is that it's preposterous to expect our security organs and personnel pragmatically speaking do more than provide and ensure a general climate of security and safety. Terrorist acts and terrorists aim to erode the polity's sense that it is, in general, safe. The reality, however, is that, in general, in the U.S. we are all quite safe, even though there may not be a specific and absolute level of safety one whereby it's assured that, say, when we go to the mall, that mall won't be a target of terrorist violence.

The U.S. has literally millions of soft targets, some are heavily peopled, like malls, bars and nightclubs, and so on, others are not, but are critical to our infrastructure and to our way of life.

​

Ask yourself this: do you prefer terrorists hit a bar somewhere and kill 100 people or take out the sources of electricity for thousands of people for months at a time? And good luck catching the bomber who destroys major elements of our electricity transmission infrastructure.

It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here?

Hard to say. The cynic in me thinks it's a matter of the context of the "Pulse" event being one that inspires a choice between gay issues and terrorism issues. Certainly from my own POV, gay folks, in and of their being gay, pose no threat to me at all and on no level at all. In contrast, angry and would be violent individuals, gay or not, most certainly can and do, and they can and do at the most critical levels of all, that of my quality of life as well as my life itself.

Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicalized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

You may find some of the answers to those questions here:

• Report: Lone Wolf Terrorism
• A Typology of Lone Wolves: Preliminary Analysis of Lone Islamist Terrorists
  
• Preventing Lone Wolf Terrorism: some CT Approaches Addressed
  
• Lone Wolf Terrorism: Understanding the Growing Threat (Summary review of the book here.)
  
• Trends and Developments in Lone Wolf Terrorism in the Western World An Analysis of Terrorist Attacks and Attempted Attacks by Islamic Extremists -- This is a scholarly literature review that offers the key "soundbite" points from relevant documents.

Additional information may be obtained from the documents noted here: Lone Wolf Terrorism – A Brief Bibliography.

Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.

As goes gun control, I happen to be among the crowd that thinks that nationally established/enforced dramatic curtailments in the availability of guns and ammunition will reduce the incidence of gun-related acts of violence and death. IMO, Mateen was highly unlikely to have been able to kill some 50 folks using a bow and arrow, throwing knives, a baseball bat, etc.

Among the major lines of argument gun rights advocates offer is that guns contribute to one's greater personal safety, presumably by either increasing the risk a violent offender faces to carry out their deed(s) and by enabling non law enforcement/non security personnel to intervene in situations like "Pulse" and the other mass killing events you noted in the OP. Well, if that's so, why in OK, VA, TX, and CO, each a "gun friendly" state, did no lay gun owner intervene to effect an end to the violence before the cops did?

Hell, three of the mass shootings were in TX, one in Killeen, TX, a place that has no paucity of gun shops, indeed two are custom gun making shops, and an army base, Ft. Hood. That in a town of ~135K people, of whom nearly 60K are Ft. Hood employees, which is to say, if the Army isn't the reason one is there, demographically, there is a very high likelihood that one is "rural" in one's outlook, and, IMO, "rural" folks love, own, and carry guns. Where were all those gun toting Texans when Lubby's was "shot up?"

I may be mistaken, but to date, I'm not aware of so much as one incident where gun carrying civilians have acted to stop a terrorist. So, what is the point of having all these armed citizens when they are clearly ineffective in helping to prevent a damn thing or in dissuading terrorists from attempting to carry out deeds like "Lubby's" and "Pulse?"

 

[there4eyeM]

It is true that present firearm laws should be strictly enforced.
It is true that new proposals restricting firearms are mostly for show by a certain part of the political spectrum for a certain part.
It is true that such new restrictions will do nothing to change the present, and probably not the future, either.
It is true that most firearm owners are at least within bounds of responsibility and prudence.
It is true that the culture of violence and firearm use is alarming in the U.S.
Self regulation and moderation are needed to cool things down, both in rhetoric and action.
We need to be alert, not paranoid.
We need to discern, not judge.
We need solidarity.

 

[alpine]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

Secularism is what made this spinning rock a peaceful place to live for human beings.

The more a society shoots far from it, the worse it gets, and the more people around the world suffer the consequences.

So the main question here is; do we have the right to impose our beliefs on others, if their ways are damaging ours?

Would this be "democratic"?

This is where the big struggle is imo.

Because this guy who just recently shot 100s of people, was a lone wolf, that is correct, but didnt just woke up one day and decided to pledge to ISIS and act.

He was "marginalized" over time, by very obvious sources.

Yes, got to choose the battles you are fighting very carefully
But worst thing to do would be; not to fight em...

You mean the secularism of the nazis and communists...sociailism has murdered over 100 million people around the world...ini modern times...not in the Middle Ages......secularists with modern educations and univerisities and modern governments....murdered 100 million people......

Nazis were a full blown religious cult to begin with, and murdered human beings by burning them alive, in the millions.

We can clearly see how anti-secular, religious ideologies drive societies into insanity at the end.

Very good example... Very good indeed...

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

I wrote he should have been flagged within the system meaning the FBI and ATF could have been notified when he bought the weapons so they could monitor him.

I am not writing he should have been denied the right to purchase.

I'm sure they were notified. Notice how quickly he was identified by the FBI, and his name was spread across the news. Unfortunately it wasn't enough to prevent this tragedy.

If they were notified they failed in my eyes.

The time between the purchase and attacks was enough time to investigate in my opinion and this might have been stopped.

Two problems though...being notified isn't enough, something has to be uncovered to support some sort of link and warrent extra survielence etc. I also don't think there are any procedures in place to flag legal gun purchases and if there were, it would be seen as infringing on the rights of gun owners.

We already have federally mandated background checks...as the FBI guy pointed out on the news...if you are a felon, an illegal immigrant or adjudicated mentally ill, you are flagged and can't buy a gun......

Mass shooter are normal until they commit the act and pass all of the gun control laws that we have or that the anti gunners want.....new laws won't stop mass shooters..they obey all the gun laws you pass.....or they steal their guns....

That's a huge loophole. For example - there was little doubt the Sandy Hook shooter and the Aurora Theatre shooter, and the one who shot Gabby Giffords were severely mentally ill.

Sandy Hook would have been harder to prevent because to my understanding the mother was the owner of the guns involved in that mass murder.

As I have stated the individual involved in Orlando shooting spree was investigated and even though that did not prevent him from buying a firearm it should have flagged him when he did buy one so the local office could have investigated his purpose of owning one.

He had direct links to known terrorists and made threats in the past, so I have questions why this guy was not investigated the moment he bought those guns...

 

[OldLady]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

He ( The Orlando Shooter ) was investigated by the FBI at least three times and any purchase of firearms should have been flagged and investigated and could have prevented the deadly event that took place.

The individual was a lone wolf but was on the FBI radar so he was known about and the question for me is if the FBI and ATF did all they could do or did the fail the people of Orlando?

Everyone that does this type of mass murder suffer from some form of mental illness so that is established and there is no doubt the individual had mental issues because there is evidence of his anger issues in the past.

We can not prevent every terrorist attack nor should we believe we can but Orlando in my opinion could have been prevented. The signs were there and the guy was investigated at least three times and flagging him in the system to me is not preventing him from buying a firearm but what it would have done is let the ATF and the FBI know that a known person of interest has obtain the firearms and they could have monitored him and might have caught him before he committed his heinous act against the people of Orlando.

One last part and that is a terrorist or criminal does not care about the laws and will do everything they can to get around the law and obtain the weapon of choice.

So passing more laws will not help and the reality is terrorism is part of our lives now the question will be what will be the tipping point where this country goes on another Genocide mission to eliminate the threat?

Maybe it is time to strike ISIS where it lives, in the Middle East. If the American people are willing to give their blood.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

He ( The Orlando Shooter ) was investigated by the FBI at least three times and any purchase of firearms should have been flagged and investigated and could have prevented the deadly event that took place.

The individual was a lone wolf but was on the FBI radar so he was known about and the question for me is if the FBI and ATF did all they could do or did the fail the people of Orlando?

Everyone that does this type of mass murder suffer from some form of mental illness so that is established and there is no doubt the individual had mental issues because there is evidence of his anger issues in the past.

We can not prevent every terrorist attack nor should we believe we can but Orlando in my opinion could have been prevented. The signs were there and the guy was investigated at least three times and flagging him in the system to me is not preventing him from buying a firearm but what it would have done is let the ATF and the FBI know that a known person of interest has obtain the firearms and they could have monitored him and might have caught him before he committed his heinous act against the people of Orlando.

One last part and that is a terrorist or criminal does not care about the laws and will do everything they can to get around the law and obtain the weapon of choice.

So passing more laws will not help and the reality is terrorism is part of our lives now the question will be what will be the tipping point where this country goes on another Genocide mission to eliminate the threat?

Maybe it is time to strike ISIS where it lives, in the Middle East. If the American people are willing to give their blood.

One question:

Are you willing to commit your son, daughter or grandchildren to fight ISIL on their own soil?

 

[OldLady]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

He ( The Orlando Shooter ) was investigated by the FBI at least three times and any purchase of firearms should have been flagged and investigated and could have prevented the deadly event that took place.

The individual was a lone wolf but was on the FBI radar so he was known about and the question for me is if the FBI and ATF did all they could do or did the fail the people of Orlando?

Everyone that does this type of mass murder suffer from some form of mental illness so that is established and there is no doubt the individual had mental issues because there is evidence of his anger issues in the past.

We can not prevent every terrorist attack nor should we believe we can but Orlando in my opinion could have been prevented. The signs were there and the guy was investigated at least three times and flagging him in the system to me is not preventing him from buying a firearm but what it would have done is let the ATF and the FBI know that a known person of interest has obtain the firearms and they could have monitored him and might have caught him before he committed his heinous act against the people of Orlando.

One last part and that is a terrorist or criminal does not care about the laws and will do everything they can to get around the law and obtain the weapon of choice.

So passing more laws will not help and the reality is terrorism is part of our lives now the question will be what will be the tipping point where this country goes on another Genocide mission to eliminate the threat?

He was well within his Constitutional rights to buy the weapons. Whether legal or illegal some will take advantage of our freedoms to hurt others. It's just a sad fact of life. I'd prefer our rights not be limited by the few who would use them against us.

I wrote he should have been flagged within the system meaning the FBI and ATF could have been notified when he bought the weapons so they could monitor him.

I am not writing he should have been denied the right to purchase.

I'd prefer he not be allowed the right to purchase, but as thing stands, yours is not a bad idea. It would take a LOT more FBI agents, though. Are we willing to fund them? I would.

 

[WelfareQueen]

I saw a documentary several years ago about 9/11. A young American Muslim kid was interviewed who had lost his father in the attack. The young man was asked if he thought the hijackers regretted that his Muslim father was one of the victims.

The Kid says..."No...they don't regret my father died at all. They hate all Americans and want us all dead. They also hate Muslims who do not share their views."

Those of you on the left in America, you must decide between the innocents killed in Orlando, Paris, California, and around the World, or radical Islam. There is no other choice.

Perhaps, but that's a false choice that ignores all these other lone wolf attacks. If it's a Muslim, it's automatically assumed to be ideologically driven, even if the man is speaking to voices in his head.

The real issue, is how to we prevent ISIS from recruiting vulnerable people and how do we identify those who might be dangerous, regardless of their religion?

Nothing is assumed when the gunman shouts Allahu Akbar before he starts shooting and pledges allegiance to ISIS on social media.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

He ( The Orlando Shooter ) was investigated by the FBI at least three times and any purchase of firearms should have been flagged and investigated and could have prevented the deadly event that took place.

The individual was a lone wolf but was on the FBI radar so he was known about and the question for me is if the FBI and ATF did all they could do or did the fail the people of Orlando?

Everyone that does this type of mass murder suffer from some form of mental illness so that is established and there is no doubt the individual had mental issues because there is evidence of his anger issues in the past.

We can not prevent every terrorist attack nor should we believe we can but Orlando in my opinion could have been prevented. The signs were there and the guy was investigated at least three times and flagging him in the system to me is not preventing him from buying a firearm but what it would have done is let the ATF and the FBI know that a known person of interest has obtain the firearms and they could have monitored him and might have caught him before he committed his heinous act against the people of Orlando.

One last part and that is a terrorist or criminal does not care about the laws and will do everything they can to get around the law and obtain the weapon of choice.

So passing more laws will not help and the reality is terrorism is part of our lives now the question will be what will be the tipping point where this country goes on another Genocide mission to eliminate the threat?

He was well within his Constitutional rights to buy the weapons. Whether legal or illegal some will take advantage of our freedoms to hurt others. It's just a sad fact of life. I'd prefer our rights not be limited by the few who would use them against us.

I wrote he should have been flagged within the system meaning the FBI and ATF could have been notified when he bought the weapons so they could monitor him.

I am not writing he should have been denied the right to purchase.

I'd prefer he not be allowed the right to purchase, but as thing stands, yours is not a bad idea. It would take a LOT more FBI agents, though. Are we willing to fund them? I would.

Fund and Mossad train them to know what they are looking for when searching. It is better to fund the agents here than sacrifice our children in a land and a war we will never win.

I watched Munich yesterday because what happen in Orlando made me grab that movie and you should watch it just for the part of the conversation between Eric Bana and the Muslim terrorist and how the terrorist said they breed many children so they can fight this war forever.

So the best thing to do is train our men and women here to find those like the Orlando shooter and not waste any more bullets or lives in a region where savages live to die in the name of war...

 

[WelfareQueen]

A hateful ideology killed those folks in Orlando. The same ideology killed folks in Paris, California, and countless other places around the World.

To suggest any link between a hateful religious ideology and attacks by those who are mentally deranged is a false analogy.

Yep. Of course it's false.

That's why people do it as their very intent is this false comparison, and they do so in order to distract away from the ideology they are trying to defend. This is not the product of an honest inquiry into the situation, but an intentionally false equivalency aimed at obfuscating, instead.

So what do you suggest be done in the US to combat this ideology - the religion of Islam?

What can be done, Coyote? You must destroy radical Islam the same as any other nihilistic death cult like Nazism. It is killed or be killed. What is so difficult to understand? How many people around the World have to be killed before the West takes the threat seriously?

 

[saveliberty]

What I have learned:

The FBI has some flaws in their investigative process. Three interviews and ten months of surveillance yield letting this person go and no follow up when he purchases an assault rifle and tries to get body armor.

The police will now wait to make entry if they think a bomb is involved, thus giving the shooter ample time to kill everyone.

The only real protection is going to come from armed citizens.

 

[CremeBrulee]

I saw a documentary several years ago about 9/11. A young American Muslim kid was interviewed who had lost his father in the attack. The young man was asked if he thought the hijackers regretted that his Muslim father was one of the victims.

The Kid says..."No...they don't regret my father died at all. They hate all Americans and want us all dead. They also hate Muslims who do not share their views."

Those of you on the left in America, you must decide between the innocents killed in Orlando, Paris, California, and around the World, or radical Islam. There is no other choice.

Perhaps, but that's a false choice that ignores all these other lone wolf attacks. If it's a Muslim, it's automatically assumed to be ideologically driven, even if the man is speaking to voices in his head.

The real issue, is how to we prevent ISIS from recruiting vulnerable people and how do we identify those who might be dangerous, regardless of their religion?

That is the million dollar question since the answer can be applied to situations beyond ISIS.

Restricting the Internet content these vulnerable individuals can access might work. I think that would be close to impossible though, unless they were monitored at all times. Obviously restricting the ability of ISIS to disseminate such content would work but I believe that is equally impossible. Governments would have to regulate the Internet to an extent that is intolerable to the modern world. For the time being I think we have to accept the flow of information the Internet, and technology as a whole, grants us to enrich and improve our lives cuts both ways.

 

[OldLady]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

He ( The Orlando Shooter ) was investigated by the FBI at least three times and any purchase of firearms should have been flagged and investigated and could have prevented the deadly event that took place.

The individual was a lone wolf but was on the FBI radar so he was known about and the question for me is if the FBI and ATF did all they could do or did the fail the people of Orlando?

Everyone that does this type of mass murder suffer from some form of mental illness so that is established and there is no doubt the individual had mental issues because there is evidence of his anger issues in the past.

We can not prevent every terrorist attack nor should we believe we can but Orlando in my opinion could have been prevented. The signs were there and the guy was investigated at least three times and flagging him in the system to me is not preventing him from buying a firearm but what it would have done is let the ATF and the FBI know that a known person of interest has obtain the firearms and they could have monitored him and might have caught him before he committed his heinous act against the people of Orlando.

One last part and that is a terrorist or criminal does not care about the laws and will do everything they can to get around the law and obtain the weapon of choice.

So passing more laws will not help and the reality is terrorism is part of our lives now the question will be what will be the tipping point where this country goes on another Genocide mission to eliminate the threat?

Maybe it is time to strike ISIS where it lives, in the Middle East. If the American people are willing to give their blood.

One question:

Are you willing to commit your son, daughter or grandchildren to fight ISIL on their own soil?

It is a serious question, Bruce. I hear what you're saying, but not everyone believes these people will be rowing over here to commit mayhem anytime soon.