CDZ The Orlando Mass Shooting and what can we learn from it?

[daws101]

He was well within his Constitutional rights to buy the weapons. Whether legal or illegal some will take advantage of our freedoms to hurt others. It's just a sad fact of life. I'd prefer our rights not be limited by the few who would use them against us.

I think that is the most challanging question we face - what are we willing to give up for security?

Another thread brought up the idea of treating internet terrorism sites like child porn sites, in terms of law.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

 

[Coyote]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

He ( The Orlando Shooter ) was investigated by the FBI at least three times and any purchase of firearms should have been flagged and investigated and could have prevented the deadly event that took place.

The individual was a lone wolf but was on the FBI radar so he was known about and the question for me is if the FBI and ATF did all they could do or did the fail the people of Orlando?

Everyone that does this type of mass murder suffer from some form of mental illness so that is established and there is no doubt the individual had mental issues because there is evidence of his anger issues in the past.

We can not prevent every terrorist attack nor should we believe we can but Orlando in my opinion could have been prevented. The signs were there and the guy was investigated at least three times and flagging him in the system to me is not preventing him from buying a firearm but what it would have done is let the ATF and the FBI know that a known person of interest has obtain the firearms and they could have monitored him and might have caught him before he committed his heinous act against the people of Orlando.

One last part and that is a terrorist or criminal does not care about the laws and will do everything they can to get around the law and obtain the weapon of choice.

So passing more laws will not help and the reality is terrorism is part of our lives now the question will be what will be the tipping point where this country goes on another Genocide mission to eliminate the threat?

He was well within his Constitutional rights to buy the weapons. Whether legal or illegal some will take advantage of our freedoms to hurt others. It's just a sad fact of life. I'd prefer our rights not be limited by the few who would use them against us.

I wrote he should have been flagged within the system meaning the FBI and ATF could have been notified when he bought the weapons so they could monitor him.

I am not writing he should have been denied the right to purchase.

I'm sure they were notified. Notice how quickly he was identified by the FBI, and his name was spread across the news. Unfortunately it wasn't enough to prevent this tragedy.

If they were notified they failed in my eyes.

The time between the purchase and attacks was enough time to investigate in my opinion and this might have been stopped.

Two problems though...being notified isn't enough, something has to be uncovered to support some sort of link and warrent extra survielence etc. I also don't think there are any procedures in place to flag legal gun purchases and if there were, it would be seen as infringing on the rights of gun owners.

 

[aaronleland]

He was well within his Constitutional rights to buy the weapons. Whether legal or illegal some will take advantage of our freedoms to hurt others. It's just a sad fact of life. I'd prefer our rights not be limited by the few who would use them against us.

I think that is the most challanging question we face - what are we willing to give up for security?

Another thread brought up the idea of treating internet terrorism sites like child porn sites, in terms of law.

I believe it should be up to the private web hosts to decide what type of sites they will allow when it comes to free speech. We already have the U.S. government taking such sites down using subversive means, and groups like Anonymous doing the same. And they have been very successful in doing so. This is new territory in the fight against terrorism, and it looks like the terrorists are fighting a losing battle. We'll have to wait to see how it plays out.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

He ( The Orlando Shooter ) was investigated by the FBI at least three times and any purchase of firearms should have been flagged and investigated and could have prevented the deadly event that took place.

The individual was a lone wolf but was on the FBI radar so he was known about and the question for me is if the FBI and ATF did all they could do or did the fail the people of Orlando?

Everyone that does this type of mass murder suffer from some form of mental illness so that is established and there is no doubt the individual had mental issues because there is evidence of his anger issues in the past.

We can not prevent every terrorist attack nor should we believe we can but Orlando in my opinion could have been prevented. The signs were there and the guy was investigated at least three times and flagging him in the system to me is not preventing him from buying a firearm but what it would have done is let the ATF and the FBI know that a known person of interest has obtain the firearms and they could have monitored him and might have caught him before he committed his heinous act against the people of Orlando.

One last part and that is a terrorist or criminal does not care about the laws and will do everything they can to get around the law and obtain the weapon of choice.

So passing more laws will not help and the reality is terrorism is part of our lives now the question will be what will be the tipping point where this country goes on another Genocide mission to eliminate the threat?

He was well within his Constitutional rights to buy the weapons. Whether legal or illegal some will take advantage of our freedoms to hurt others. It's just a sad fact of life. I'd prefer our rights not be limited by the few who would use them against us.

I wrote he should have been flagged within the system meaning the FBI and ATF could have been notified when he bought the weapons so they could monitor him.

I am not writing he should have been denied the right to purchase.

I'm sure they were notified. Notice how quickly he was identified by the FBI, and his name was spread across the news. Unfortunately it wasn't enough to prevent this tragedy.

If they were notified they failed in my eyes.

The time between the purchase and attacks was enough time to investigate in my opinion and this might have been stopped.

Two problems though...being notified isn't enough, something has to be uncovered to support some sort of link and warrent extra survielence etc. I also don't think there are any procedures in place to flag legal gun purchases and if there were, it would be seen as infringing on the rights of gun owners.

His past words and link to other terrorists is warrant enough in my eyes and they flagged our calls illegally through the NSA so what would stop them from doing the same on Firearm purchases?

One thing is for sure the Orlando killer was not too smart because he left a trail of evidence that even I can see...

 

[daws101]

He ( The Orlando Shooter ) was investigated by the FBI at least three times and any purchase of firearms should have been flagged and investigated and could have prevented the deadly event that took place.

The individual was a lone wolf but was on the FBI radar so he was known about and the question for me is if the FBI and ATF did all they could do or did the fail the people of Orlando?

Everyone that does this type of mass murder suffer from some form of mental illness so that is established and there is no doubt the individual had mental issues because there is evidence of his anger issues in the past.

We can not prevent every terrorist attack nor should we believe we can but Orlando in my opinion could have been prevented. The signs were there and the guy was investigated at least three times and flagging him in the system to me is not preventing him from buying a firearm but what it would have done is let the ATF and the FBI know that a known person of interest has obtain the firearms and they could have monitored him and might have caught him before he committed his heinous act against the people of Orlando.

One last part and that is a terrorist or criminal does not care about the laws and will do everything they can to get around the law and obtain the weapon of choice.

So passing more laws will not help and the reality is terrorism is part of our lives now the question will be what will be the tipping point where this country goes on another Genocide mission to eliminate the threat?

He was well within his Constitutional rights to buy the weapons. Whether legal or illegal some will take advantage of our freedoms to hurt others. It's just a sad fact of life. I'd prefer our rights not be limited by the few who would use them against us.

I wrote he should have been flagged within the system meaning the FBI and ATF could have been notified when he bought the weapons so they could monitor him.

I am not writing he should have been denied the right to purchase.

I'm sure they were notified. Notice how quickly he was identified by the FBI, and his name was spread across the news. Unfortunately it wasn't enough to prevent this tragedy.

If they were notified they failed in my eyes.

The time between the purchase and attacks was enough time to investigate in my opinion and this might have been stopped.

Two problems though...being notified isn't enough, something has to be uncovered to support some sort of link and warrent extra survielence etc. I also don't think there are any procedures in place to flag legal gun purchases and if there were, it would be seen as infringing on the rights of gun owners.

the shooter did everything legally, conundrum that!

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

He was well within his Constitutional rights to buy the weapons. Whether legal or illegal some will take advantage of our freedoms to hurt others. It's just a sad fact of life. I'd prefer our rights not be limited by the few who would use them against us.

I wrote he should have been flagged within the system meaning the FBI and ATF could have been notified when he bought the weapons so they could monitor him.

I am not writing he should have been denied the right to purchase.

I'm sure they were notified. Notice how quickly he was identified by the FBI, and his name was spread across the news. Unfortunately it wasn't enough to prevent this tragedy.

If they were notified they failed in my eyes.

The time between the purchase and attacks was enough time to investigate in my opinion and this might have been stopped.

Two problems though...being notified isn't enough, something has to be uncovered to support some sort of link and warrent extra survielence etc. I also don't think there are any procedures in place to flag legal gun purchases and if there were, it would be seen as infringing on the rights of gun owners.

the shooter did everything legally, conundrum that!

True, and it shows how a terrorist can get away with killing innocent people just doing it legally.

 

[Carla_Danger]

What we can learn from it is that the totalitarian political ideology called Islam is at odds with western values of tolerance. Tolerating this intolerance is not an act of tolerance, and no amount of specious apologia will ever make it so. Tolerating this intolerance will only feed it as we watch it grow.

It is a lie that Islam is little or no different than Christianity or Judaism. It was created quite intentionally by a foul man whose very business involved murdering people, taking what was theirs, raping women and having sex with children. He created this ideology by grafting on some religious elements to his manifesto calling for his warriors to dominate all others.

The killing of these people is simply one of the means towards that end.

Are you suggesting that we kill all 1.6 billion of them?

Interestingly enough, I am suggesting this to the exact same degree you are suggesting we should abandon our way of life and implement an ISIS style governance immediately.

I was quite obviously talking about the Islamist killing the people in the night club. The goal of Islamic terrorism is to follow the warlords directives about spreading Islam.

Thank you for clarifying that you do not believe we should murder all 1.6 billion Muslims. Do you have any stats showing that more gay people are killed in the US by people of Islamic faith vs those of Christian faith?

 

[daws101]

What we can learn from it is that the totalitarian political ideology called Islam is at odds with western values of tolerance. Tolerating this intolerance is not an act of tolerance, and no amount of specious apologia will ever make it so. Tolerating this intolerance will only feed it as we watch it grow.

It is a lie that Islam is little or no different than Christianity or Judaism. It was created quite intentionally by a foul man whose very business involved murdering people, taking what was theirs, raping women and having sex with children. He created this ideology by grafting on some religious elements to his manifesto calling for his warriors to dominate all others.

The killing of these people is simply one of the means towards that end.

Are you suggesting that we kill all 1.6 billion of them?

Interestingly enough, I am suggesting this to the exact same degree you are suggesting we should abandon our way of life and implement an ISIS style governance immediately.

I was quite obviously talking about the Islamist killing the people in the night club. The goal of Islamic terrorism is to follow the warlords directives about spreading Islam.

Thank you for clarifying that you do not believe we should murder all 1.6 billion Muslims. Do you have any stats showing that more gay people are killed in the US by people of Islamic faith vs those of Christian faith?

History of violence against LGBT people in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

What we can learn from it is that the totalitarian political ideology called Islam is at odds with western values of tolerance. Tolerating this intolerance is not an act of tolerance, and no amount of specious apologia will ever make it so. Tolerating this intolerance will only feed it as we watch it grow.

It is a lie that Islam is little or no different than Christianity or Judaism. It was created quite intentionally by a foul man whose very business involved murdering people, taking what was theirs, raping women and having sex with children. He created this ideology by grafting on some religious elements to his manifesto calling for his warriors to dominate all others.

The killing of these people is simply one of the means towards that end.

Are you suggesting that we kill all 1.6 billion of them?

Interestingly enough, I am suggesting this to the exact same degree you are suggesting we should abandon our way of life and implement an ISIS style governance immediately.

I was quite obviously talking about the Islamist killing the people in the night club. The goal of Islamic terrorism is to follow the warlords directives about spreading Islam.

Thank you for clarifying that you do not believe we should murder all 1.6 billion Muslims. Do you have any stats showing that more gay people are killed in the US by people of Islamic faith vs those of Christian faith?

This link is not to help the other poster but to give you the information you seek and hope it help you:

History of violence against LGBT people in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

What we can learn from it is that the totalitarian political ideology called Islam is at odds with western values of tolerance. Tolerating this intolerance is not an act of tolerance, and no amount of specious apologia will ever make it so. Tolerating this intolerance will only feed it as we watch it grow.

It is a lie that Islam is little or no different than Christianity or Judaism. It was created quite intentionally by a foul man whose very business involved murdering people, taking what was theirs, raping women and having sex with children. He created this ideology by grafting on some religious elements to his manifesto calling for his warriors to dominate all others.

The killing of these people is simply one of the means towards that end.

Are you suggesting that we kill all 1.6 billion of them?

Interestingly enough, I am suggesting this to the exact same degree you are suggesting we should abandon our way of life and implement an ISIS style governance immediately.

I was quite obviously talking about the Islamist killing the people in the night club. The goal of Islamic terrorism is to follow the warlords directives about spreading Islam.

Thank you for clarifying that you do not believe we should murder all 1.6 billion Muslims. Do you have any stats showing that more gay people are killed in the US by people of Islamic faith vs those of Christian faith?

History of violence against LGBT people in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We post the same link!

 

[daws101]

What we can learn from it is that the totalitarian political ideology called Islam is at odds with western values of tolerance. Tolerating this intolerance is not an act of tolerance, and no amount of specious apologia will ever make it so. Tolerating this intolerance will only feed it as we watch it grow.

It is a lie that Islam is little or no different than Christianity or Judaism. It was created quite intentionally by a foul man whose very business involved murdering people, taking what was theirs, raping women and having sex with children. He created this ideology by grafting on some religious elements to his manifesto calling for his warriors to dominate all others.

The killing of these people is simply one of the means towards that end.

Are you suggesting that we kill all 1.6 billion of them?

Interestingly enough, I am suggesting this to the exact same degree you are suggesting we should abandon our way of life and implement an ISIS style governance immediately.

I was quite obviously talking about the Islamist killing the people in the night club. The goal of Islamic terrorism is to follow the warlords directives about spreading Islam.

Thank you for clarifying that you do not believe we should murder all 1.6 billion Muslims. Do you have any stats showing that more gay people are killed in the US by people of Islamic faith vs those of Christian faith?

History of violence against LGBT people in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What we can learn from it is that the totalitarian political ideology called Islam is at odds with western values of tolerance. Tolerating this intolerance is not an act of tolerance, and no amount of specious apologia will ever make it so. Tolerating this intolerance will only feed it as we watch it grow.

It is a lie that Islam is little or no different than Christianity or Judaism. It was created quite intentionally by a foul man whose very business involved murdering people, taking what was theirs, raping women and having sex with children. He created this ideology by grafting on some religious elements to his manifesto calling for his warriors to dominate all others.

The killing of these people is simply one of the means towards that end.

Are you suggesting that we kill all 1.6 billion of them?

Interestingly enough, I am suggesting this to the exact same degree you are suggesting we should abandon our way of life and implement an ISIS style governance immediately.

I was quite obviously talking about the Islamist killing the people in the night club. The goal of Islamic terrorism is to follow the warlords directives about spreading Islam.

Thank you for clarifying that you do not believe we should murder all 1.6 billion Muslims. Do you have any stats showing that more gay people are killed in the US by people of Islamic faith vs those of Christian faith?

History of violence against LGBT people in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We post the same link!

great minds think alike!

 

[WelfareQueen]

A hateful ideology killed those folks in Orlando. The same ideology killed folks in Paris, California, and countless other places around the World.

To suggest any link between a hateful religious ideology and attacks by those who are mentally deranged is a false analogy.

Radical Islam must be stopped. Those on the left must choose between innocents such as those murdered in Orlando and radical Islam. It really is that simple.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

A hateful ideology killed those folks in Orlando. The same ideology killed folks in Paris, California, and countless other places around the World.

To suggest any link between a hateful religious ideology and attacks by those who are mentally deranged is a false analogy.

Yep. Of course it's false.

That's why people do it as their very intent is this false comparison, and they do so in order to distract away from the ideology they are trying to defend. This is not the product of an honest inquiry into the situation, but an intentionally false equivalency aimed at obfuscating, instead.

 

[WelfareQueen]

I saw a documentary several years ago about 9/11. A young American Muslim kid was interviewed who had lost his father in the attack. The young man was asked if he thought the hijackers regretted that his Muslim father was one of the victims.

The Kid says..."No...they don't regret my father died at all. They hate all Americans and want us all dead. They also hate Muslims who do not share their views."

Those of you on the left in America, you must decide between the innocents killed in Orlando, Paris, California, and around the World, or radical Islam. There is no other choice.

 

[2aguy]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.

You are wrong.....the Right has considered guns and gun control and we understand what we need......when a criminal commits a crime with a gun you arrest them and put them in jail for 30 years...if a felon is caught with a gun you put them in jail for 30 years...

To stop mass shooters, you end gun free zones and allow normal, law abiding citizens to carry their legal guns with them. if they break the law with the gun you punish them....

those are the gun control measures that 1) actually work and 2) target actual law breakers and murderers and leave normal, law abiding gun owners alone...since 90% of gun murderers have previous felony convictions that made it illegal for them to own, carry or use a gun to commit murder......

Please submit some gun control measures you think would have stopped this attack....

 

[2aguy]

All well and good....but Orlando was radical Islam. Nothing more and nothing less. It's past time to address the problem

How would you address it?

Would you address Christian homophobic extremism in the same way?

And where is the organized violence against gays coming from Christians.....?

 

[SassyIrishLass]

All well and good....but Orlando was radical Islam. Nothing more and nothing less. It's past time to address the problem

How would you address it?

Would you address Christian homophobic extremism in the same way?

And where is the organized violence against gays coming from Christians.....?

They refused to bake them a cake. Oh the horror

 

[2aguy]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

Secularism is what made this spinning rock a peaceful place to live for human beings.

The more a society shoots far from it, the worse it gets, and the more people around the world suffer the consequences.

So the main question here is; do we have the right to impose our beliefs on others, if their ways are damaging ours?

Would this be "democratic"?

This is where the big struggle is imo.

Because this guy who just recently shot 100s of people, was a lone wolf, that is correct, but didnt just woke up one day and decided to pledge to ISIS and act.

He was "marginalized" over time, by very obvious sources.

Yes, got to choose the battles you are fighting very carefully
But worst thing to do would be; not to fight em...

You mean the secularism of the nazis and communists...sociailism has murdered over 100 million people around the world...ini modern times...not in the Middle Ages......secularists with modern educations and univerisities and modern governments....murdered 100 million people......

 

[2aguy]

He ( The Orlando Shooter ) was investigated by the FBI at least three times and any purchase of firearms should have been flagged and investigated and could have prevented the deadly event that took place.

The individual was a lone wolf but was on the FBI radar so he was known about and the question for me is if the FBI and ATF did all they could do or did the fail the people of Orlando?

Everyone that does this type of mass murder suffer from some form of mental illness so that is established and there is no doubt the individual had mental issues because there is evidence of his anger issues in the past.

We can not prevent every terrorist attack nor should we believe we can but Orlando in my opinion could have been prevented. The signs were there and the guy was investigated at least three times and flagging him in the system to me is not preventing him from buying a firearm but what it would have done is let the ATF and the FBI know that a known person of interest has obtain the firearms and they could have monitored him and might have caught him before he committed his heinous act against the people of Orlando.

One last part and that is a terrorist or criminal does not care about the laws and will do everything they can to get around the law and obtain the weapon of choice.

So passing more laws will not help and the reality is terrorism is part of our lives now the question will be what will be the tipping point where this country goes on another Genocide mission to eliminate the threat?

He was well within his Constitutional rights to buy the weapons. Whether legal or illegal some will take advantage of our freedoms to hurt others. It's just a sad fact of life. I'd prefer our rights not be limited by the few who would use them against us.

I wrote he should have been flagged within the system meaning the FBI and ATF could have been notified when he bought the weapons so they could monitor him.

I am not writing he should have been denied the right to purchase.

I'm sure they were notified. Notice how quickly he was identified by the FBI, and his name was spread across the news. Unfortunately it wasn't enough to prevent this tragedy.

If they were notified they failed in my eyes.

The time between the purchase and attacks was enough time to investigate in my opinion and this might have been stopped.

Two problems though...being notified isn't enough, something has to be uncovered to support some sort of link and warrent extra survielence etc. I also don't think there are any procedures in place to flag legal gun purchases and if there were, it would be seen as infringing on the rights of gun owners.

We already have federally mandated background checks...as the FBI guy pointed out on the news...if you are a felon, an illegal immigrant or adjudicated mentally ill, you are flagged and can't buy a gun......

Mass shooter are normal until they commit the act and pass all of the gun control laws that we have or that the anti gunners want.....new laws won't stop mass shooters..they obey all the gun laws you pass.....or they steal their guns....

 

[Coyote]

There is a lot of grief, anger, hate, and sorrow at what happened - but like with other similar events, can this sort of thing be prevented - are there solutions or are we stuck on blame? This horrific attack raises questions around terrorism, religion, homophobia, gun violence and mental health and I think they all need to be examined.

Homophobia:

Hatred of homosexuals. This is something Islam has in common with it's relatives, Christianity and Judaism. Arguments are made that Christianity doesn't believe in killing gays and largely - because many Christians live in law abiding SECULAR societies, where human rights are enshrined - they don't. Islam as a religion has a ways to go in certain parts of the world, when it comes to human rights. But this killer was AMERICAN. Born and raised in the US. His parents were immigrants, but was he was not. Was his motivation any different than that of Eric Rudolph who was conficted of a series of anti-abortion and anti-gay bombings which killed two people and injured over 120 others. Why is it, that this event produces a "uniting" of outrage and anger, even from those who hate gays while Eric Rudolph's actions did not. Why did it take this event, for the anti-gay factions to suddenly decide that killing gays is horrific and requires a response greater than a namby pamby denunciation that was given for Rudolph? Both killers were American citizens who hated gays and chose to act on it violently. It's great to see the public uniting behind this, but why did it take this one event when violence against gays, even murder is nothing new here.


Lone Wolf Attacks and the Problem with Prediction:

According to the FBI, lone wolf attacks are almost impossible to predict and prevent. Indications so far seem to be that this fellow is a lone wolf with no known ties to terrorist groups (alghough he pledged to ISIS right before the shooting, his actions were on his own). I think it's a good idea to look at this event in context of other lone wolf mass shootings.

The 12 deadliest Mass Shootings: A List Of The Deadliest Mass Shootings In U.S. History - by number killed.

1. Pulse Orlando nightclub in Orlando, Fla. (June 12, 2016)

2. Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. (April 16, 2007)

3. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn. (Dec. 14, 2012)

4. Luby's Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas (Oct. 16, 1991)

6. University of Texas Tower in Austin, Texas (Aug. 1, 1966)

7. Columbine High School in Littleton, Colo. (April 20, 1999)

8. Edmond Post Office in Edmond, Okla. (Aug. 20, 1986)

9. Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, Calif. (Dec. 2, 2015)

10. American Civic Association, Binghamton, N.Y. (April 3, 2009)

11. Fort Hood in Texas (Nov. 5, 2009)

12. Washington Navy Yard in Washington, D.C. (Sept. 16, 2013)

All of these have one thing in common - they are "lone wolf" attacks, 3 of them were by Muslims who were American citizens (with the exception of one) the rest by non-Muslim American citizens.

Mental Illness:

Clearly some of these attacks were the product of mental illness (Sandy Hook, VA Tech, for example); others seem to have been influenced somewhat by possible mental illness. Mateen's wife, and at least one co-worker expressed concerns in that regard and called him unstable, violent, etc. There are close ties between mental illness and religiousity. Religion can, in unstable people, give them a rationale for violence. Yet, there is no evidence for mental illness (that I've found) for the San Diego shooters, it appears they were radicalized, and acted on it.

Questions - if Mateen hadn't been radicialized by Islam, would he have found some other reason to commit these murders?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.



It is difficult to find solutions because it's difficult to predict these events AND almost any solution will have an effect on our freedoms and rights.

• Increased gun control will have an effect on law abiding gun owners.
• Increased focus on mental health issues could have an effect on the rights and freedoms of mentally ill individuals who present no threat of violence.
• Increased focus on religion could have an effect on the religious freedom and rights of privacy.
• Increased surviellance of any sort, on innocent people would have wide ranging effects.
• Addressing homophobia - American's have experienced a huge change in attitudes towards homosexuals over the past decades, and that trend towards greater acceptance and tolerant is evident in all American religious communities, including Muslims. Despite that, there is still considerable friction surrounding addressing tolerance in schools and accusations of a "gay agenda". Can more be done in this area?

Gun Culture and Gun Control
The two elephants in the room: the left doesn't want to consider the issue of Islam, the right doesn't want to consider the issue of guns. Could increased gun control have prevented or limited the number of dead? Could decreased gun control have made a difference in the ability of people to respond.

You are wrong.....the Right has considered guns and gun control and we understand what we need......when a criminal commits a crime with a gun you arrest them and put them in jail for 30 years...if a felon is caught with a gun you put them in jail for 30 years...

To stop mass shooters, you end gun free zones and allow normal, law abiding citizens to carry their legal guns with them. if they break the law with the gun you punish them....

those are the gun control measures that 1) actually work and 2) target actual law breakers and murderers and leave normal, law abiding gun owners alone...since 90% of gun murderers have previous felony convictions that made it illegal for them to own, carry or use a gun to commit murder......

Please submit some gun control measures you think would have stopped this attack....

To be honest, I'm not sure gun control measures would have affected this particular incident though it might have with some of the others.

I also do not think your proposal of ending gun free zones and allowing "normal, law abiding citizens" to carry their legal guns with them would work either.

Situations where there are drugs and alcohal are not good situations to have guns in. As you noted elsewhere - it would have been dark and hazy and very crowded - even a sober person could not have safely shot him down.

Lone Wolf attacks like this might not be possible to prevent.

For other situations though, I think there should be a red flag for people that purchase large amounts of certain types of ammo perhaps, or large numbers of high velocity weapons. I'm just throwing that out there because the San Diego shooter had quite an arsonal but it was all perfectly legal.