The world is watching and waiting !!!

[Sweet_Caroline]

The State of Israel, being a Jewish state is entitled to the land apportioned to it in San Remo, which obviously includes the area of the West Bank that Jordan captured in a war of aggression against Israel in 1948.

OK, but where does it say that?

The Origin and Nature of the “Mandate for Palestine”

The “Mandate for Palestine,” an historical League of Nations document, laid down the Jewish legal right to settle anywhere in western Palestine, a 10,000-square-miles3 area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

The legally binding document was conferred on April 24, 1920 at the San Remo Conference, and its terms outlined in the Treaty of Sèvres on August 10, 1920. The Mandate’s terms were finalized and unanimously approved on July 24, 1922, by the Council of the League of Nations, which was comprised at that time of 51 countries,4 and became operational on September 29, 1923.5

The “Mandate for Palestine” was not a naive vision briefly embraced by the international community in blissful unawareness of Arab opposition to the very notion of Jewish historical rights in Palestine. The Mandate weathered the test of time: On April 18, 1946, when the League of Nations was dissolved and its assets and duties transferred to the United Nations, the international community, in essence, reaffirmed the validity of this international accord and reconfirmed that the terms for a Jewish National Home were the will of the international community, a “sacred trust” – despite the fact that by then it was patently clear that the Arabs opposed a Jewish National Home, no matter what the form.

Read it all here
Mandate For Palestine - The Legal Aspects of Jewish Rights

 

[P F Tinmore]

The State of Israel, being a Jewish state is entitled to the land apportioned to it in San Remo, which obviously includes the area of the West Bank that Jordan captured in a war of aggression against Israel in 1948.

OK, but where does it say that?

The Origin and Nature of the “Mandate for Palestine”

The “Mandate for Palestine,” an historical League of Nations document, laid down the Jewish legal right to settle anywhere in western Palestine, a 10,000-square-miles3 area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

The legally binding document was conferred on April 24, 1920 at the San Remo Conference, and its terms outlined in the Treaty of Sèvres on August 10, 1920. The Mandate’s terms were finalized and unanimously approved on July 24, 1922, by the Council of the League of Nations, which was comprised at that time of 51 countries,4 and became operational on September 29, 1923.5

The “Mandate for Palestine” was not a naive vision briefly embraced by the international community in blissful unawareness of Arab opposition to the very notion of Jewish historical rights in Palestine. The Mandate weathered the test of time: On April 18, 1946, when the League of Nations was dissolved and its assets and duties transferred to the United Nations, the international community, in essence, reaffirmed the validity of this international accord and reconfirmed that the terms for a Jewish National Home were the will of the international community, a “sacred trust” – despite the fact that by then it was patently clear that the Arabs opposed a Jewish National Home, no matter what the form.

Read it all here
Mandate For Palestine - The Legal Aspects of Jewish Rights

OK, but the Mandate for Palestine was to assist Jewish immigrants in obtaining Palestinian citizenship. As Palestinian citizens with equal rights they could live anywhere in Palestine. There was not to be a Jewish state.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

OK, but where does it say that?

The Origin and Nature of the “Mandate for Palestine”

The “Mandate for Palestine,” an historical League of Nations document, laid down the Jewish legal right to settle anywhere in western Palestine, a 10,000-square-miles3 area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

The legally binding document was conferred on April 24, 1920 at the San Remo Conference, and its terms outlined in the Treaty of Sèvres on August 10, 1920. The Mandate’s terms were finalized and unanimously approved on July 24, 1922, by the Council of the League of Nations, which was comprised at that time of 51 countries,4 and became operational on September 29, 1923.5

The “Mandate for Palestine” was not a naive vision briefly embraced by the international community in blissful unawareness of Arab opposition to the very notion of Jewish historical rights in Palestine. The Mandate weathered the test of time: On April 18, 1946, when the League of Nations was dissolved and its assets and duties transferred to the United Nations, the international community, in essence, reaffirmed the validity of this international accord and reconfirmed that the terms for a Jewish National Home were the will of the international community, a “sacred trust” – despite the fact that by then it was patently clear that the Arabs opposed a Jewish National Home, no matter what the form.

Read it all here
Mandate For Palestine - The Legal Aspects of Jewish Rights

OK, but the Mandate for Palestine was to assist Jewish immigrants in obtaining Palestinian citizenship. As Palestinian citizens with equal rights they could live anywhere in Palestine. There was not to be a Jewish state.

You will have to watch that video again, carefully. The Arabs were given other states and the Jews were given Israel to reconstitute their rights to the land.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Origin and Nature of the “Mandate for Palestine”

The “Mandate for Palestine,” an historical League of Nations document, laid down the Jewish legal right to settle anywhere in western Palestine, a 10,000-square-miles3 area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

The legally binding document was conferred on April 24, 1920 at the San Remo Conference, and its terms outlined in the Treaty of Sèvres on August 10, 1920. The Mandate’s terms were finalized and unanimously approved on July 24, 1922, by the Council of the League of Nations, which was comprised at that time of 51 countries,4 and became operational on September 29, 1923.5

The “Mandate for Palestine” was not a naive vision briefly embraced by the international community in blissful unawareness of Arab opposition to the very notion of Jewish historical rights in Palestine. The Mandate weathered the test of time: On April 18, 1946, when the League of Nations was dissolved and its assets and duties transferred to the United Nations, the international community, in essence, reaffirmed the validity of this international accord and reconfirmed that the terms for a Jewish National Home were the will of the international community, a “sacred trust” – despite the fact that by then it was patently clear that the Arabs opposed a Jewish National Home, no matter what the form.

Read it all here
Mandate For Palestine - The Legal Aspects of Jewish Rights

OK, but the Mandate for Palestine was to assist Jewish immigrants in obtaining Palestinian citizenship. As Palestinian citizens with equal rights they could live anywhere in Palestine. There was not to be a Jewish state.

You will have to watch that video again, carefully. The Arabs were given other states and the Jews were given Israel to reconstitute their rights to the land.

I didn't see where the land was given Israel.

 

[irosie91]

OK, but the Mandate for Palestine was to assist Jewish immigrants in obtaining Palestinian citizenship. As Palestinian citizens with equal rights they could live anywhere in Palestine. There was not to be a Jewish state.

You will have to watch that video again, carefully. The Arabs were given other states and the Jews were given Israel to reconstitute their rights to the land.

I didn't see where the land was given Israel.

MOOT point---Mr Tin. The salient issue is that jews were given the right to
migrate to palestine from the rest of the world----in fact----including other parts
of the erstwhile OTTOMAN CALIPHATE. -----and did so. Because they did so---
your colleagues decided that it would be a good idea to murder them---
thruout the erstwhile ottoman empire-----and also to ally with the arab/islamic
hero adolf abu.ali. Thus the problem was one of ALLIANCES ----and
like-mindedness which created peoples in conflict.
-----The conflict ended up leading to the creation of the state of Israel as
a refuge for jews from people in your camp.
The event was not a first or a last in the history of mankind.

Just recently----SOUTH SUDAN became -------sorta becoming
a refuge for the kind of filth you endorse. Sudan has been
controlled by ETHNIC ARABS----for thousands of years----in fact
pre-dating islam. ------now it is no longer controlled entirely
by ethnic arabs-----there is a part controlled by the populations
which had been a source of slaves for the controlling arabs for
THOUSANDS OF YEARS--------is that fair? Based on LENGTH
OF TIME -----of a PEOPLE IN CONTROL------by your sick logic---
---arab muslims OWN the whole thing ----lock stock and barrel

I have no doubt that you supported the genocide of Biafrans
in 1971-----similar issue

 

[dreolin]

The Origin and Nature of the “Mandate for Palestine”

The “Mandate for Palestine,” an historical League of Nations document, laid down the Jewish legal right to settle anywhere in western Palestine, a 10,000-square-miles3 area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

The legally binding document was conferred on April 24, 1920 at the San Remo Conference, and its terms outlined in the Treaty of Sèvres on August 10, 1920. The Mandate’s terms were finalized and unanimously approved on July 24, 1922, by the Council of the League of Nations, which was comprised at that time of 51 countries,4 and became operational on September 29, 1923.5

The “Mandate for Palestine” was not a naive vision briefly embraced by the international community in blissful unawareness of Arab opposition to the very notion of Jewish historical rights in Palestine. The Mandate weathered the test of time: On April 18, 1946, when the League of Nations was dissolved and its assets and duties transferred to the United Nations, the international community, in essence, reaffirmed the validity of this international accord and reconfirmed that the terms for a Jewish National Home were the will of the international community, a “sacred trust” – despite the fact that by then it was patently clear that the Arabs opposed a Jewish National Home, no matter what the form.

Read it all here


OK, but the Mandate for Palestine was to assist Jewish immigrants in obtaining Palestinian citizenship. As Palestinian citizens with equal rights they could live anywhere in Palestine. There was not to be a Jewish state.

You will have to watch that video again, carefully. The Arabs were given other states and the Jews were given Israel to reconstitute their rights to the land.

Perhaps you will explain why the League of Nations has any right to slice and dice lands inhabited by peoples without giving them a say as to their governance?

How can the Arab peoples be given something they already had by Western powers who preached democracy but didn't practice it.

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

You will have to watch that video again, carefully. The Arabs were given other states and the Jews were given Israel to reconstitute their rights to the land.

Perhaps you will explain why the League of Nations has any right to slice and dice lands inhabited by peoples without giving them a say as to their governance?

How can the Arab peoples be given something they already had by Western powers who preached democracy but didn't practice it.

Fact is at that time of change, they had the right, it was voted on, and Jews were given the land back to them whilst arabs were given other lands. It was voted on and ratified. Counties were legally obliged to encourage Jewish immigration to that part of the Palestinian Mandate.

The UN was obliged to secure any rights of the arabs and Jews that were in that San Remo mandate.

 

[dreolin]

Perhaps you will explain why the League of Nations has any right to slice and dice lands inhabited by peoples without giving them a say as to their governance?

How can the Arab peoples be given something they already had by Western powers who preached democracy but didn't practice it.

Fact is at that time of change, they had the right, it was voted on, and Jews were given the land back to them whilst arabs were given other lands. It was voted on and ratified. Counties were legally obliged to encourage Jewish immigration to that part of the Palestinian Mandate.

The UN was obliged to secure any rights of the arabs and Jews that were in that San Remo mandate.

You really didn't answer my question. Who gave them the right to dictate the boundaries of native peoples? That is anti-democratic and dictatorial.

Just because someone has power does not confer rights. perhaps you think it does?

Also, how were the Jews given the land back to them? Should everyone be given "the land back to them"? What are you talking about. Lands belong to peoples, not religions. I am not sure even that "the lands" can or should be given back to people after a period of time. Is there some sort of statute of limitations?

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

Fact is at that time of change, they had the right, it was voted on, and Jews were given the land back to them whilst arabs were given other lands. It was voted on and ratified. Counties were legally obliged to encourage Jewish immigration to that part of the Palestinian Mandate.

The UN was obliged to secure any rights of the arabs and Jews that were in that San Remo mandate.

You really didn't answer my question. Who gave them the right to dictate the boundaries of native peoples? That is anti-democratic and dictatorial.

Just because someone has power does not confer rights. perhaps you think it does?

Also, how were the Jews given the land back to them? Should everyone be given "the land back to them"? What are you talking about. Lands belong to peoples, not religions. I am not sure even that "the lands" can or should be given back to people after a period of time. Is there some sort of statute of limitations?

Awww does our new resident antisemite not like it?

 

[proudveteran06]

That sentence makes no sense. Please rephrase it.

Caroline----give up-----Mr tin has no desire to make sense. Lets ask SHERRI
----"WHAT IS PALESTINE"?? she cites Herodotus----who described quite a
LARGE "palestina" based on the fact that there were greeks and greek-
like people -----living in ASSYIRIA, LEBANON, PARTS OF SINAI, today's
JORDAN ----and----he threw in the then conquored ISRAEL/JUDEA ---

uhm........is mr tin asking "where is it written"??? where is it written
that MECCA AND MEDINA belong to arab muslims EXCLUSIVELY----what
happened to the rights of the INDIGENOUS zoroastrians, jews, and
christians. (well---far more indigenous than the two year requirement
for ARABS TO OWN --'palestine' )

uhm........is mr tin asking "where is it written"??? where is it written
that MECCA AND MEDINA belong to arab muslims EXCLUSIVELY----

Good point. I have always opposed religion based governments of any stripe.

Excellent reason why there will never be a " Palestinian state" Can't have it both ways

 

[P F Tinmore]

Caroline----give up-----Mr tin has no desire to make sense. Lets ask SHERRI
----"WHAT IS PALESTINE"?? she cites Herodotus----who described quite a
LARGE "palestina" based on the fact that there were greeks and greek-
like people -----living in ASSYIRIA, LEBANON, PARTS OF SINAI, today's
JORDAN ----and----he threw in the then conquored ISRAEL/JUDEA ---

uhm........is mr tin asking "where is it written"??? where is it written
that MECCA AND MEDINA belong to arab muslims EXCLUSIVELY----what
happened to the rights of the INDIGENOUS zoroastrians, jews, and
christians. (well---far more indigenous than the two year requirement
for ARABS TO OWN --'palestine' )

uhm........is mr tin asking "where is it written"??? where is it written
that MECCA AND MEDINA belong to arab muslims EXCLUSIVELY----

Good point. I have always opposed religion based governments of any stripe.

Excellent reason why there will never be a " Palestinian state" Can't have it both ways

What religious laws are there in Palestine?

Women and Christians own land, homes, and businesses. They can run for and hold government offices. The mayor of Ramallah is a Christian woman elected in a Muslim majority city. (let me know when a Christian or Muslim gets elected mayor of Tel Aviv.) Women drive around in their cars with their hair in the breeze, even in Gaza.

 

[dreolin]

You really didn't answer my question. Who gave them the right to dictate the boundaries of native peoples? That is anti-democratic and dictatorial.

Just because someone has power does not confer rights. perhaps you think it does?

Also, how were the Jews given the land back to them? Should everyone be given "the land back to them"? What are you talking about. Lands belong to peoples, not religions. I am not sure even that "the lands" can or should be given back to people after a period of time. Is there some sort of statute of limitations?

Awww does our new resident antisemite not like it?

Calling someone an "antisemite" really doesn't cover the fact that you have no answer, or so it seems. It is an easy way out, but it is also disingenuous. I certainly try to treat all people with the same consideration. I see no reason to make an exception, one way or another, for Jewish people.

 

[Hossfly]

Israeli settlementsMain articles: Israeli settlement and International law and Israeli settlements

The participating High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention,[17] numerous UN resolutions, the International Court of Justice[18] and other instances have ruled that Israel's policy of establishing civilian settlements in occupied territories, including in East Jerusalem, is illegal.

Israel's settlement policy has drawn harsh criticism from the United States[19] and the European Union.[20]

Criticism of the Israeli government - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



International legal opinions[edit]

At present, based on the result of numerous UN resolutions that cite Article 49 of the Geneva Convention, the consensus view of the international community is that Israeli settlements are illegal and constitute a violation of international law.[10][11][12][35][36] According to the BBC, every government in the world, except Israel, considers the settlements to be illegal.[37]





Arguments based on property rights and private ownership[edit]

On January 30, 2009, the Associated Press reported that Israeli political group Yesh Din plans to use a classified Israeli Government database to prove that many West Bank Israeli settlements were built on land privately owned by Palestinian citizens without compensation.[116]

International law and Israeli settlements - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





Israel always tell the world that it wants peace, what it needs to realize is that there can be no peace without Justice !!!

Don't Muslims always say that Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance, and yet it doesn't seem that way given what is going on? How can there ever be peace if innocent people are being murdered in the name of a religion? What do you think about the Muslims murdering Catholics too like you just because they happen to be Catholic? Don't you ever read what Catholic organizations are saying, or are you just obsessed over the Jews? Don't you think the civilized world is watching? How do you think they feel when they read about innocent people killing others in the name of a religion, even when it is Muslims killing each other for differences in their beliefs?
Egyptian Muslims murdering Christians with impunity - International - Catholic Online

 

[Hossfly]

Good point. I have always opposed religion based governments of any stripe.

Excellent reason why there will never be a " Palestinian state" Can't have it both ways

What religious laws are there in Palestine?

Women and Christians own land, homes, and businesses. They can run for and hold government offices. The mayor of Ramallah is a Christian woman elected in a Muslim majority city. (let me know when a Christian or Muslim gets elected mayor of Tel Aviv.) Women drive around in their cars with their hair in the breeze, even in Gaza.

Remember, Tinnie, when you go for your next visit, don't bother stepping into a hair salon. Forget about who is elected in any place because I think most of us realize that in the entire Muslim Middle East, it would be very difficult for a non Muslim to get elected to anything. Just tell us when the Muslims in the Middle East will be tolerant to those of others religions instead of harassing and killing these people.

Shawarma Mayor: Sharia Paradise in Gaza finds new targets: Barber shops

 

[dreolin]

Awww does our new resident antisemite not like it?

Calling someone an "antisemite" really doesn't cover the fact that you have no answer, or so it seems. It is an easy way out, but it is also disingenuous. I certainly try to treat all people with the same consideration. I see no reason to make an exception, one way or another, for Jewish people.

This Presbyterian has a thought for you. Let's call Robert Zemeckis, and have him send over that Delorean Time Machine of his. We'll send you on a free vacation to the Jewish ghetto in Berlin in 1942. Then we will give you a free scenic train ride to Auschwitz. You will love the resort facilities. Of course your stay there will not last long. After that, I would like to hear your opinion of your accommodations. I am told the numeric tattoos are on the house.



Nazi hospitality at it's best.
[/CENTER]

That was interesting, but it really didn't make any point. Auschwitz isn't any where near the Mideast.

You seem angry. Do you have any point at all?

Sorry, I cannot post URLs yet so i had to not include your pictures.

 

[Beachboy]

Awww does our new resident antisemite not like it?

Calling someone an "antisemite" really doesn't cover the fact that you have no answer, or so it seems. It is an easy way out, but it is also disingenuous. I certainly try to treat all people with the same consideration. I see no reason to make an exception, one way or another, for Jewish people.

​

This Presbyterian has a thought for you. Let's call Robert Zemeckis, and have him send over that Delorean Time Machine of his. We'll send you on a free vacation to the Jewish ghetto in Berlin in 1942. Then we will give you a free scenic train ride to Auschwitz. You will love the resort facilities. Of course your stay there will not last long. After that, I would like to hear your opinion of your accommodations. I am told the numeric tattoos are on the house.

​

​

​

You will love cocktails with Commandant Rudolph Hoess, a funny guy, much like Colonel Klink!
​

​

​

​

There is always plenty of hot water for your mandatory shower.
​

​

Nazi hospitality at it's best.​

 

[dreolin]

Awww does our new resident antisemite not like it?

Calling someone an "antisemite" really doesn't cover the fact that you have no answer, or so it seems. It is an easy way out, but it is also disingenuous. I certainly try to treat all people with the same consideration. I see no reason to make an exception, one way or another, for Jewish people.

This Presbyterian has a thought for you. Let's call Robert Zemeckis, and have him send over that Delorean Time Machine of his. We'll send you on a free vacation to the Jewish ghetto in Berlin in 1942. Then we will give you a free scenic train ride to Auschwitz. You will love the resort facilities. Of course your stay there will not last long. After that, I would like to hear your opinion of your accommodations. I am told the numeric tattoos are on the house.

Nazi hospitality at it's best.​

This non-Presbyterian has a thought for you. Other groups were targeted for elimination by the Nazis and I do not hear a loud cry or see banners waving for them.

I think a better case could be made for establishing a national homeland for the gays based on the fact that they were born that way. Religious freedom, in my opinion, is a right but it is also a choice.

So, you do advocate for a GLBT state and national homeland, using the same logic that you are using for the creation and existence of a Jewish state, don't you?

 

[Beachboy]

Calling someone an "antisemite" really doesn't cover the fact that you have no answer, or so it seems. It is an easy way out, but it is also disingenuous. I certainly try to treat all people with the same consideration. I see no reason to make an exception, one way or another, for Jewish people.

This Presbyterian has a thought for you. Let's call Robert Zemeckis, and have him send over that Delorean Time Machine of his. We'll send you on a free vacation to the Jewish ghetto in Berlin in 1942. Then we will give you a free scenic train ride to Auschwitz. You will love the resort facilities. Of course your stay there will not last long. After that, I would like to hear your opinion of your accommodations. I am told the numeric tattoos are on the house.

Nazi hospitality at it's best.​

This non-Presbyterian has a thought for you. Other groups were targeted for elimination by the Nazis and I do not hear a loud cry or see banners waving for them.

I think a better case could be made for establishing a national homeland for the gays based on the fact that they were born that way. Religious freedom, in my opinion, is a right but it is also a choice.

So, you do advocate for a GLBT state and national homeland, using the same logic that you are using for the creation and existence of a Jewish state, don't you?

It is posts like yours that send people out looking for a new message board. As usual you provide NO FACT/LINKS to support a word you say.
Your lack of compassion for my post about Jews in 1942 Berlin causes me to write you off totally. And, why you are bringing the GLBTQ into it is beyond me? I am a happily married hetero living in Los Angeles where GLBTQ and Jews are just as good as me. Your stupidity and bigotry is getting you perilously close my "ignore" button. I have no patience with idiots.

 

[dreolin]

This Presbyterian has a thought for you. Let's call Robert Zemeckis, and have him send over that Delorean Time Machine of his. We'll send you on a free vacation to the Jewish ghetto in Berlin in 1942. Then we will give you a free scenic train ride to Auschwitz. You will love the resort facilities. Of course your stay there will not last long. After that, I would like to hear your opinion of your accommodations. I am told the numeric tattoos are on the house.

Nazi hospitality at it's best.​

This non-Presbyterian has a thought for you. Other groups were targeted for elimination by the Nazis and I do not hear a loud cry or see banners waving for them.

I think a better case could be made for establishing a national homeland for the gays based on the fact that they were born that way. Religious freedom, in my opinion, is a right but it is also a choice.

So, you do advocate for a GLBT state and national homeland, using the same logic that you are using for the creation and existence of a Jewish state, don't you?

It is posts like yours that send people out looking for a new message board. As usual you provide NO FACT/LINKS to support a word you say.
Your lack of compassion for my post about Jews in 1942 Berlin causes me to write you off totally. And, why you are bringing the GLBTQ into it is beyond me? I am a happily married hetero living in Los Angeles where GLBTQ and Jews are just as good as me. Your stupidity and bigotry is getting you perilously close my "ignore" button. I have no patience with idiots.



It is pretty common knowledge that other groups were targeted by the Nazis. You do not need a link and I do not have the required number of posts to provide one. To what exactly would you like a link anyway?

If such targeting by Nazis is some raison d'etre for Jews being able to have a nation state created for them, I see an inconsistency in not allowing the creation of a nation state for these other targeted groups. Your lack of compassion for any victims of the Nazis other than those members of the Jewish faith is beyond me, your alleged "happily married, heterosexual resident of L.A." notwithstanding.

 

[Beachboy]

This non-Presbyterian has a thought for you. Other groups were targeted for elimination by the Nazis and I do not hear a loud cry or see banners waving for them.

I think a better case could be made for establishing a national homeland for the gays based on the fact that they were born that way. Religious freedom, in my opinion, is a right but it is also a choice.

So, you do advocate for a GLBT state and national homeland, using the same logic that you are using for the creation and existence of a Jewish state, don't you?

It is posts like yours that send people out looking for a new message board. As usual you provide NO FACT/LINKS to support a word you say.
Your lack of compassion for my post about Jews in 1942 Berlin causes me to write you off totally. And, why you are bringing the GLBTQ into it is beyond me? I am a happily married hetero living in Los Angeles where GLBTQ and Jews are just as good as me. Your stupidity and bigotry is getting you perilously close my "ignore" button. I have no patience with idiots.



It is pretty common knowledge that other groups were targeted by the Nazis. You do not need a link and I do not have the required number of posts to provide one. To what exactly would you like a link anyway?

If such targeting by Nazis is some raison d'etre for Jews being able to have a nation state created for them, I see an inconsistency in not allowing the creation of a nation state for these other targeted groups. Your lack of compassion for any victims of the Nazis other than those members of the Jewish faith is beyond me, your alleged "happily married, heterosexual resident of L.A." notwithstanding.

Maybe you should think about why you do not have enough posts to link? There is an USMB reason for this. Of course you could always footnote in a bibliography style. You would do well to read the USMB forums before you post any more. USMB is the big leagues, and I don't think you are up to it.