This is... Catholic?!

[BluePhantom]

There are no "instant salvations" because some missionary showed them a bible and told them to accept jesus. That is complete and utter BS.

I am really trying to stay out of this, but I have to say if I told someone about my views on God and they immediately converted to Christianity I'd be pretty damned skeptical. Faith and understanding of God isn't something someone is going to grasp in an hour or so. I am reminded of a friend to whom I loaned my copy of the Tao Te Ching. He gave it back the next day and said "wow that was great, I got a lot out of it". My immediate thought was "It took me six months of thinking about it to understand chapter one which is half a page long. Either I am really stupid or you didn't grasp a damn thing."

You are intellectualizing faith.
It's a spiritual experience and people can come to a saving knowledge of God as with God all things are possible. It's disappointing to see people of Faith still relying so much in intellectualism and knowledge, and denying Godly miracles and revelations.

No, he is just at a very different level than you are when it comes to faith. And you should be so lucky as to ever reach where he is at.

He doesn't believe in Satan or Hell so I already disagree with his doctrine. But we know we differ in that way.
Hopefully YOU will be lucky and believe as he does one day.

Well this gets back to definitions. In reality I try not to define myself as anything in regard to my religious identity. I refer myself to a Christian on these boards more as a matter of convenience. It saves me from having to explain my views over and over and over. In truth, my views differ from traditional Christianity. I would probably more accurately be described as a Taoist-Christian with a smidgen of Hindu and M-theory tossed in for effect.

But see how that definition creates confusion. When I state on the boards that I am a Christian, there is an assumption of beliefs according to the definition I give people. In truth I AM a Christian. I believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God, and that He was God in the flesh. I believe He was the sacrifice for all mankind. Well that belief makes me a "Christian" by definition. It's just that I have other beliefs or beliefs that are different from traditional views that are based upon other influences.

 

[Bonzi]

There are no "instant salvations" because some missionary showed them a bible and told them to accept jesus. That is complete and utter BS.

I am really trying to stay out of this, but I have to say if I told someone about my views on God and they immediately converted to Christianity I'd be pretty damned skeptical. Faith and understanding of God isn't something someone is going to grasp in an hour or so. I am reminded of a friend to whom I loaned my copy of the Tao Te Ching. He gave it back the next day and said "wow that was great, I got a lot out of it". My immediate thought was "It took me six months of thinking about it to understand chapter one which is half a page long. Either I am really stupid or you didn't grasp a damn thing."

You are intellectualizing faith.
It's a spiritual experience and people can come to a saving knowledge of God as with God all things are possible. It's disappointing to see people of Faith still relying so much in intellectualism and knowledge, and denying Godly miracles and revelations.

No, he is just at a very different level than you are when it comes to faith. And you should be so lucky as to ever reach where he is at.

He doesn't believe in Satan or Hell so I already disagree with his doctrine. But we know we differ in that way.
Hopefully YOU will be lucky and believe as he does one day.

Well this gets back to definitions. In reality I try not to define myself as anything in regard to my religious identity. I refer myself to a Christian on these boards more as a matter of convenience. It saves me from having to explain my views over and over and over. In truth, my views differ from traditional Christianity. I would probably more accurately be described as a Taoist-Christian with a smidgen of Hindu and M-theory tossed in for effect.

But see how that definition creates confusion. When I state on the boards that I am a Christian, there is an assumption of beliefs according to the definition I give people. In truth I AM a Christian. I believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God, and that He was God in the flesh. I believe He was the sacrifice for all mankind. Well that belief makes me a "Christian" by definition. It's just that I have other beliefs or beliefs that are different from traditional views that are based upon other influences.

There are many many different "Christians" with differing doctrines - many feel their way is the only way, so, you and I do NOT differ in that way. I happen to attend a Baptist church, but, I don't think that is the "only" denomination that's "truly Christian" - I believe there are saved Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans etc. etc. and even saved people with no "affiliation" at all...

 

[BluePhantom]

BP was not denying miracles and revelations.

And intellectualism is part of the faith process for some, indeed.

Sounded to me like he was saying you can be saved "on the spot".

I am assuming you meant "can't be saved on the spot". Sure you can, but I question where it will take you and how long it will survive if there is not an understanding behind the commitment. I do not at all deny miracles and revelations. I believe I have experienced both in my life. There have been things I have experienced that I call a miracle. DT knows one or two of them and he contends they were blind stupid luck. Well.....maybe. I must at least concede the possibility that is was simple luck if I am to be truly open to new learning. It just depends on how you choose to look at it. I don't think any less of DT because he interprets those experiences differently. He is walking his path and I am walking mine and that's totally fine.

I believe God wants us to think. I have dealt with many pastors who argued to me that God does not want us to think or ask questions. He wants blind obedience. I disagree. Without thinking how can we learn? Without learning how can we experience? Without experience how can a relationship with God grow? My experience with DT and Sealybobo and a couple others is that they have strengthened my faith because they challenge me to think and consider other possibilities. Although they may cringe at that thought, I am actually very grateful for their input. So yeah people can be saved on the spot, but without an intellectual understanding can faith grow? Personally, I do not think so.

 

[BluePhantom]

BP was not denying miracles and revelations.

And intellectualism is part of the faith process for some, indeed.

Sounded to me like he was saying you can be saved "on the spot".

He said that he would be skeptical if that were to occur!

As a knowledgeable Christian, I find it odd he has never heard of such a happening. I've heard about many.

I never said it hasn't happened. I have seen it happen and stick. I am merely saying that from my experience most people did not stick with it once the emotional high wore off and they started considering the implications of their choice.

 

[BluePhantom]

I've taken Biblical study courses, although I don't have the supplemental historical knowledge and research that BP has (or any of you) has I'm sure..

Let me make a suggestion. Check out some of the audio courses here...

The Great Courses

I have some of them and while they are not an "end all" they are a great starting point regarding Christianity from a scholarly perspective. If you listen to them and don't take what they say as gospel, but take what they say and then immerse yourself in research on what they say from multiple viewpoints you will learn quite a bit. Short of going back to college, this is about the best one can do to gain scholarly perspective and maintain a normal lifestyle.

 

[Bonzi]

BP was not denying miracles and revelations.

And intellectualism is part of the faith process for some, indeed.

Sounded to me like he was saying you can be saved "on the spot".

I am assuming you meant "can't be saved on the spot". Sure you can, but I question where it will take you and how long it will survive if there is not an understanding behind the commitment. I do not at all deny miracles and revelations. I believe I have experienced both in my life. There have been things I have experienced that I call a miracle. DT knows one or two of them and he contends they were blind stupid luck. Well.....maybe. I must at least concede the possibility that is was simple luck if I am to be truly open to new learning. It just depends on how you choose to look at it. I don't think any less of DT because he interprets those experiences differently. He is walking his path and I am walking mine and that's totally fine.

I believe God wants us to think. I have dealt with many pastors who argued to me that God does not want us to think or ask questions. He wants blind obedience. I disagree. Without thinking how can we learn? Without learning how can we experience? Without experience how can a relationship with God grow? My experience with DT and Sealybobo and a couple others is that they have strengthened my faith because they challenge me to think and consider other possibilities. Although they may cringe at that thought, I am actually very grateful for their input. So yeah people can be saved on the spot, but without an intellectual understanding can faith grow? Personally, I do not think so.

I'm fortunate to have had 2 very good pastors in my life. They always encourage us to check behind them, read, pray and study. Both also said Sunday School was more important than the Church service....

 

[Bonzi]

I've taken Biblical study courses, although I don't have the supplemental historical knowledge and research that BP has (or any of you) has I'm sure..

Let me make a suggestion. Check out some of the audio courses here...

The Great Courses

I have some of them and while they are not an "end all" they are a great starting point regarding Christianity from a scholarly perspective. If you listen to them and don't take what they say as gospel, but take what they say and then immerse yourself in research on what they say from multiple viewpoints you will learn quite a bit. Short of going back to college, this is about the best one can do to gain scholarly perspective and maintain a normal lifestyle.

Thank you BP, that is very nice. I may check it out sometime.

 

[BluePhantom]

There are no "instant salvations" because some missionary showed them a bible and told them to accept jesus. That is complete and utter BS.

I am really trying to stay out of this, but I have to say if I told someone about my views on God and they immediately converted to Christianity I'd be pretty damned skeptical. Faith and understanding of God isn't something someone is going to grasp in an hour or so. I am reminded of a friend to whom I loaned my copy of the Tao Te Ching. He gave it back the next day and said "wow that was great, I got a lot out of it". My immediate thought was "It took me six months of thinking about it to understand chapter one which is half a page long. Either I am really stupid or you didn't grasp a damn thing."

Agreed!

There is a problem with theists that they will refuse to acknowledge but it exists.

They seem to suspend any and all critical thinking skills when it comes to their religion. In essence anyone can stand up in front of them and say the most outrageous nonsense and they will just instantly believe that it is true without any question. They take gullibility to a whole new level. And yes, that makes them susceptible to becoming victims of religious shysters and hucksters.

Having had the opportunity to be a very small part of actual missionary work in the field I know that it isn't even close to what is being related here. I even had the opportunity to spend some quality time with a minister of religion who was over here from Africa and the topic of missionary work came up. He said that Americans are very generous but really don't grasp the reality of the situations that exist in Africa. It is more about the daily grind of existence than the "salvation of souls".

I would agree with that, but I would argue that is a function of religion as an institution and not a defect of religion in general. Applied incorrectly, religion can be a terribly devastating thing and history is replete with examples of the Church using its influence in destructive ways. One of those ways is to curb independent thought. There's a reason why in the Middle Ages (at certain times in history) it was an offense punishable by death for a common person to be able to even read Latin. The Church didn't want people to have the ability to read the Bible and see if what they were being told was true. Keep the people stupid and they are far easier to control. Pol Pot can attest to that.

 

[turzovka]

There is a problem with theists that they will refuse to acknowledge but it exists. They seem to suspend any and all critical thinking skills when it comes to their religion. In essence anyone can stand up in front of them and say the most outrageous nonsense and they will just instantly believe that it is true without any question. They take gullibility to a whole new level. And yes, that makes them susceptible to becoming victims of religious shysters and hucksters.

No one is arguing such a condition may exist for a percentage of believers. Some theology is strongly contested by other churches. But how does that frenzy in some deny core dogma? I would think a high percentage of all Christian denominations are not doing their people wrong on teaching the critical points.

Having had the opportunity to be a very small part of actual missionary work in the field I know that it isn't even close to what is being related here. I even had the opportunity to spend some quality time with a minister of religion who was over here from Africa and the topic of missionary work came up. He said that Americans are very generous but really don't grasp the reality of the situations that exist in Africa. It is more about the daily grind of existence than the "salvation of souls".

I’m sure you are right. But most missionaries take care of the needs of the people, first and foremost. I also do not see how preaching Jesus makes their care for their sicknesses and nourishment any less attained.

 

[OZman]

Is there any other group or whatever that teaches these things?

 

[ninja007]

most catholics are not Christian as they put their trust in the sacraments, the rcc, the priesthood and not in Jesus alone for salvation.

 

[Likkmee]

Catholics are Idolaters, liars and thieves in general.. Saved on Sat. Burglarize a house on Monday. Have sex with the sister-in law on Thurs. Shank a competitor on Friday night ( rosary beads in hand)....
Go to the closet and confess to el padre again(while he spanks his monkey in the adjacent closet)
232 hail Marias and sin no more(don't forget to drop a $50 at the door)
What a farce.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Both also said Sunday School was more important than the Church service....

Exactly!

Because no one is born with any knowledge of religions or deities and first be taught about them.

Missionaries have to do this teaching first before any salvation can occur because otherwise, as BP knows, there is nothing of any substance.

Religion teaches a way of life and it is perfectly possible to live the same common values in life without any religion whatsoever.

“That many good men have believed this strange fable [Christianity], and lived very good lives under that belief (for credulity is not a crime) is what I have no doubt of. In the first place, they were educated to believe it, and they would have believed anything else in the same manner. There are also many who have been so enthusiastically enraptured by what they conceived to be the infinite love of God to man, in making a sacrifice of himself, that the vehemence of the idea has forbidden and deterred them from examining into the absurdity and profaneness of the story.”
― Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

 

[Derideo_Te]

There are no "instant salvations" because some missionary showed them a bible and told them to accept jesus. That is complete and utter BS.

I am really trying to stay out of this, but I have to say if I told someone about my views on God and they immediately converted to Christianity I'd be pretty damned skeptical. Faith and understanding of God isn't something someone is going to grasp in an hour or so. I am reminded of a friend to whom I loaned my copy of the Tao Te Ching. He gave it back the next day and said "wow that was great, I got a lot out of it". My immediate thought was "It took me six months of thinking about it to understand chapter one which is half a page long. Either I am really stupid or you didn't grasp a damn thing."

Agreed!

There is a problem with theists that they will refuse to acknowledge but it exists.

They seem to suspend any and all critical thinking skills when it comes to their religion. In essence anyone can stand up in front of them and say the most outrageous nonsense and they will just instantly believe that it is true without any question. They take gullibility to a whole new level. And yes, that makes them susceptible to becoming victims of religious shysters and hucksters.

Having had the opportunity to be a very small part of actual missionary work in the field I know that it isn't even close to what is being related here. I even had the opportunity to spend some quality time with a minister of religion who was over here from Africa and the topic of missionary work came up. He said that Americans are very generous but really don't grasp the reality of the situations that exist in Africa. It is more about the daily grind of existence than the "salvation of souls".

I would agree with that, but I would argue that is a function of religion as an institution and not a defect of religion in general. Applied incorrectly, religion can be a terribly devastating thing and history is replete with examples of the Church using its influence in destructive ways. One of those ways is to curb independent thought. There's a reason why in the Middle Ages (at certain times in history) it was an offense punishable by death for a common person to be able to even read Latin. The Church didn't want people to have the ability to read the Bible and see if what they were being told was true. Keep the people stupid and they are far easier to control. Pol Pot can attest to that.

Agreed!

The secret of freedom lies in educating people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant.
Maximilien Robespierre

Read more at Maximilien Robespierre Quotes at BrainyQuote

 

[Bonzi]

Both also said Sunday School was more important than the Church service....

Exactly!

Because no one is born with any knowledge of religions or deities and first be taught about them.

Missionaries have to do this teaching first before any salvation can occur because otherwise, as BP knows, there is nothing of any substance.

Religion teaches a way of life and it is perfectly possible to live the same common values in life without any religion whatsoever.

“That many good men have believed this strange fable [Christianity], and lived very good lives under that belief (for credulity is not a crime) is what I have no doubt of. In the first place, they were educated to believe it, and they would have believed anything else in the same manner. There are also many who have been so enthusiastically enraptured by what they conceived to be the infinite love of God to man, in making a sacrifice of himself, that the vehemence of the idea has forbidden and deterred them from examining into the absurdity and profaneness of the story.”
― Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

Actually BP said people can be saved upon hearing the word immediately (through the miracle of God's revelation), and learn more later to become stronger in their faith and Christian walk.
He may correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Both also said Sunday School was more important than the Church service....

Exactly!

Because no one is born with any knowledge of religions or deities and first be taught about them.

Missionaries have to do this teaching first before any salvation can occur because otherwise, as BP knows, there is nothing of any substance.

Religion teaches a way of life and it is perfectly possible to live the same common values in life without any religion whatsoever.

“That many good men have believed this strange fable [Christianity], and lived very good lives under that belief (for credulity is not a crime) is what I have no doubt of. In the first place, they were educated to believe it, and they would have believed anything else in the same manner. There are also many who have been so enthusiastically enraptured by what they conceived to be the infinite love of God to man, in making a sacrifice of himself, that the vehemence of the idea has forbidden and deterred them from examining into the absurdity and profaneness of the story.”
― Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

Actually BP said people can be saved upon hearing the word immediately (through the miracle of God's revelation), and learn more later to become stronger in their faith and Christian walk.
He may correct me if I'm wrong.

BP said that he was skeptical and which part of "hearing the word" is not a learning experience?

 

[Bonzi]

Both also said Sunday School was more important than the Church service....

Exactly!

Because no one is born with any knowledge of religions or deities and first be taught about them.

Missionaries have to do this teaching first before any salvation can occur because otherwise, as BP knows, there is nothing of any substance.

Religion teaches a way of life and it is perfectly possible to live the same common values in life without any religion whatsoever.

“That many good men have believed this strange fable [Christianity], and lived very good lives under that belief (for credulity is not a crime) is what I have no doubt of. In the first place, they were educated to believe it, and they would have believed anything else in the same manner. There are also many who have been so enthusiastically enraptured by what they conceived to be the infinite love of God to man, in making a sacrifice of himself, that the vehemence of the idea has forbidden and deterred them from examining into the absurdity and profaneness of the story.”
― Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

Actually BP said people can be saved upon hearing the word immediately (through the miracle of God's revelation), and learn more later to become stronger in their faith and Christian walk.
He may correct me if I'm wrong.

BP said that he was skeptical and which part of "hearing the word" is not a learning experience?

I see what you are saying, when you said "being taught" I guess I'm thinking more long term instruction vs. hearing the Truth and recognizing it.

 

[Meriweather]

So basically I get to be different than Catholics because they regard social/economic justice as a means to an end and I see it as an end unto itself? That... definitely does help with all of this.

No, social/economic justice is not a means to an end for Catholics. That is a five hundered year old slur against Catholics by Protestants who claim that Catholics say people must earn their way to heaven.

Many Protestant denominations follow the Reformation's subjective teaching that heaven is guaranteed the moment the individual repents and believes in Christ, and after that point nothing can take away that guarantee of heaven because "Once Saved, Always Saved."

Catholic teaching is much less subjective, relying on two objective teachings of Christ: Repent (turn away from sin and to God) and discern the will of the Father and follow it. This is The Way of Eternal life, and it begins right here, right now. Many non-Catholic denominations teach "saved" or "salvation" as something that occurs after death, in heaven.

Catholics see it differently. Catholics believe salvation begins with baptism and is a way of life. Catholics believe and work towards God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. God's kingdom is right here on earth, within reach, if we choose to enter into it.

My husband is an atheist, I am a Catholic. The difference between us is that I have a relationship (and therefore a few experiences) with God. I have always had a deep and all encompassing desire to get to know God better. My husband doesn't hold a belief of God, or that one is even necessary. But our beliefs of right and wrong pretty much coincide on everything.

 

[Meriweather]

I would not be one to tell you that a Catholic who cares for his brother does not consider the care and love he shows to his brother as and end unto itself. I think he would since it probably strikes most all us as a good and natural act of kindness bringing comfort to another.

But it is also the second highest command God gave us as well. So there is more to it than just that one "end."

Well said and quite true.

 

[Derideo_Te]

My husband is an atheist, I am a Catholic. The difference between us is that I have a relationship (and therefore a few experiences) with God. I have always had a deep and all encompassing desire to get to know God better. My husband doesn't hold a belief of God, or that one is even necessary. But our beliefs of right and wrong pretty much coincide on everything.

Exactly!

There is no difference when it comes to common values.