This is... Catholic?!

[BluePhantom]

Actually BP said people can be saved upon hearing the word immediately (through the miracle of God's revelation), and learn more later to become stronger in their faith and Christian walk.
He may correct me if I'm wrong.

BP said that he was skeptical and which part of "hearing the word" is not a learning experience?

Actually I am agreeing with you both. Yes, people can be saved upon hearing the word immediately (through the miracle of God's revelation), and learn more later to become stronger in their faith and Christian walk. I just don't think it happens as often as those who hear the Word, embrace the Word, and then reject the Word once the emotional high wears off. So I would be skeptical of someone making an on the spot conversion.

I also agree with DT that we are taught to believe certain things and behave a certain way. However, as one's faith grows they should rely less and less upon external authority to provide guidance and justification for their views and more and more they should rely upon themselves and the relationship with their God that God has developed within them.

 

[Meriweather]

Exactly!

There is no difference when it comes to common values.

I phrase it a bit differently: There is no difference when it comes to ideal values.

For example, millions of people consider divorce, abortion, euthanasia, recreational sex between consenting adults for any reason, and deliberately planning non-traditional families for children as good enough. We can argue whether any of this is "good enough" but what can't be argued is none of what I list is the "ideal."

The reason the Catholic Church comes under fire on these social issues, is because it insists on standing for and pointing to the ideal. For the Church "Good enough" never is, and its mission is to shine light on the ideal and to help people (to the extent possible) to attain it.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Exactly!

There is no difference when it comes to common values.

I phrase it a bit differently: There is no difference when it comes to ideal values.

For example, millions of people consider divorce, abortion, euthanasia, recreational sex between consenting adults for any reason, and deliberately planning non-traditional families for children as good enough. We can argue whether any of this is "good enough" but what can't be argued is none of what I list is the "ideal."

The reason the Catholic Church comes under fire on these social issues, is because it insists on standing for and pointing to the ideal. For the Church "Good enough" never is, and its mission is to shine light on the ideal and to help people (to the extent possible) to attain it.

Your point is well made.

And yes, it is possible to have "ideal" common values both within and outside of religion.

Not that many attain them in either instance but the principle still holds true.

 

[Bonzi]

Actually BP said people can be saved upon hearing the word immediately (through the miracle of God's revelation), and learn more later to become stronger in their faith and Christian walk.
He may correct me if I'm wrong.

BP said that he was skeptical and which part of "hearing the word" is not a learning experience?

Actually I am agreeing with you both. Yes, people can be saved upon hearing the word immediately (through the miracle of God's revelation), and learn more later to become stronger in their faith and Christian walk. I just don't think it happens as often as those who hear the Word, embrace the Word, and then reject the Word once the emotional high wears off. So I would be skeptical of someone making an on the spot conversion.

I also agree with DT that we are taught to believe certain things and behave a certain way. However, as one's faith grows they should rely less and less upon external authority to provide guidance and justification for their views and more and more they should rely upon themselves and the relationship with their God that God has developed within them.

I think DT just likes to be contrarian with me because I'm a woman

 

[Bonzi]

So basically I get to be different than Catholics because they regard social/economic justice as a means to an end and I see it as an end unto itself? That... definitely does help with all of this.

No, social/economic justice is not a means to an end for Catholics. That is a five hundered year old slur against Catholics by Protestants who claim that Catholics say people must earn their way to heaven.

Many Protestant denominations follow the Reformation's subjective teaching that heaven is guaranteed the moment the individual repents and believes in Christ, and after that point nothing can take away that guarantee of heaven because "Once Saved, Always Saved."

Catholic teaching is much less subjective, relying on two objective teachings of Christ: Repent (turn away from sin and to God) and discern the will of the Father and follow it. This is The Way of Eternal life, and it begins right here, right now. Many non-Catholic denominations teach "saved" or "salvation" as something that occurs after death, in heaven.

Catholics see it differently. Catholics believe salvation begins with baptism and is a way of life. Catholics believe and work towards God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. God's kingdom is right here on earth, within reach, if we choose to enter into it.

My husband is an atheist, I am a Catholic. The difference between us is that I have a relationship (and therefore a few experiences) with God. I have always had a deep and all encompassing desire to get to know God better. My husband doesn't hold a belief of God, or that one is even necessary. But our beliefs of right and wrong pretty much coincide on everything.

Did you see what your joke of a Pope said?
He PERMITS priests to forgive abortions?
ONLY GOD can forgive!
If a girl wants forgiveness for an abortion, all she has to do is pray to God sincerely for it.
FRAUD!

 

[Meriweather]

Did you see what your joke of a Pope said?
He PERMITS priests to forgive abortions?
ONLY GOD can forgive!
If a girl wants forgiveness for an abortion, all she has to do is pray to God sincerely for it.
FRAUD!

Priests have always been able to pronounce forgiveness for an abortion (or any other sin). Pope Francis has always been very good about reminding people of realities they may not remember.

Christ passed on the authority to forgive sins: Receive the Holy Spirit; if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them... (John 20:22) This is a passage the Catholic Church takes literally, the conferring of authority to forgive sins.

The Catholic Church follows in Jesus's teachings and example in audibly pronouncing, "Your sins are forgiven." The Sacrament of Reconciliation provide the visible signs of the invisible reality that sins are indeed forgiven. Jesus, experiencing a physical life himself, understood that, in this life, we perceive best through sensory stimulus.

Note that in their daily prayers, Catholics ask God for forgiveness, and we believe our sins are forgiven. But we also acknowledge and value Christ's insights by involving not only mind, but body, mind, and soul in issues of great import.

For example, as a non-Catholic, do you believe in baptizing yourself before God alone? When non-Catholics marry, are only the two being married present before God alone? Catholics believe, that along with baptism, the Lord's Supper, marriage, sin and forgiveness of sin not only affects the the individual (body, mind, and soul), but the entire community.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Actually BP said people can be saved upon hearing the word immediately (through the miracle of God's revelation), and learn more later to become stronger in their faith and Christian walk.
He may correct me if I'm wrong.

BP said that he was skeptical and which part of "hearing the word" is not a learning experience?

Actually I am agreeing with you both. Yes, people can be saved upon hearing the word immediately (through the miracle of God's revelation), and learn more later to become stronger in their faith and Christian walk. I just don't think it happens as often as those who hear the Word, embrace the Word, and then reject the Word once the emotional high wears off. So I would be skeptical of someone making an on the spot conversion.

I also agree with DT that we are taught to believe certain things and behave a certain way. However, as one's faith grows they should rely less and less upon external authority to provide guidance and justification for their views and more and more they should rely upon themselves and the relationship with their God that God has developed within them.

I think DT just likes to be contrarian with me because I'm a woman

You are a woman?

I thought you were a yeti!

 

[Derideo_Te]

So basically I get to be different than Catholics because they regard social/economic justice as a means to an end and I see it as an end unto itself? That... definitely does help with all of this.

No, social/economic justice is not a means to an end for Catholics. That is a five hundered year old slur against Catholics by Protestants who claim that Catholics say people must earn their way to heaven.

Many Protestant denominations follow the Reformation's subjective teaching that heaven is guaranteed the moment the individual repents and believes in Christ, and after that point nothing can take away that guarantee of heaven because "Once Saved, Always Saved."

Catholic teaching is much less subjective, relying on two objective teachings of Christ: Repent (turn away from sin and to God) and discern the will of the Father and follow it. This is The Way of Eternal life, and it begins right here, right now. Many non-Catholic denominations teach "saved" or "salvation" as something that occurs after death, in heaven.

Catholics see it differently. Catholics believe salvation begins with baptism and is a way of life. Catholics believe and work towards God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. God's kingdom is right here on earth, within reach, if we choose to enter into it.

My husband is an atheist, I am a Catholic. The difference between us is that I have a relationship (and therefore a few experiences) with God. I have always had a deep and all encompassing desire to get to know God better. My husband doesn't hold a belief of God, or that one is even necessary. But our beliefs of right and wrong pretty much coincide on everything.

Did you see what your joke of a Pope said?
He PERMITS priests to forgive abortions?
ONLY GOD can forgive!
If a girl wants forgiveness for an abortion, all she has to do is pray to God sincerely for it.
FRAUD!

Pope Francis is doing exactly what Jesus would have done under the circumstances.

In essence he is forgiving them their trespasses and telling them to sin no more.

That makes Francis a better Christian than you IMO.

 

[Bonzi]

So basically I get to be different than Catholics because they regard social/economic justice as a means to an end and I see it as an end unto itself? That... definitely does help with all of this.

No, social/economic justice is not a means to an end for Catholics. That is a five hundered year old slur against Catholics by Protestants who claim that Catholics say people must earn their way to heaven.

Many Protestant denominations follow the Reformation's subjective teaching that heaven is guaranteed the moment the individual repents and believes in Christ, and after that point nothing can take away that guarantee of heaven because "Once Saved, Always Saved."

Catholic teaching is much less subjective, relying on two objective teachings of Christ: Repent (turn away from sin and to God) and discern the will of the Father and follow it. This is The Way of Eternal life, and it begins right here, right now. Many non-Catholic denominations teach "saved" or "salvation" as something that occurs after death, in heaven.

Catholics see it differently. Catholics believe salvation begins with baptism and is a way of life. Catholics believe and work towards God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. God's kingdom is right here on earth, within reach, if we choose to enter into it.

My husband is an atheist, I am a Catholic. The difference between us is that I have a relationship (and therefore a few experiences) with God. I have always had a deep and all encompassing desire to get to know God better. My husband doesn't hold a belief of God, or that one is even necessary. But our beliefs of right and wrong pretty much coincide on everything.

Did you see what your joke of a Pope said?
He PERMITS priests to forgive abortions?
ONLY GOD can forgive!
If a girl wants forgiveness for an abortion, all she has to do is pray to God sincerely for it.
FRAUD!

Pope Francis is doing exactly what Jesus would have done under the circumstances.

In essence he is forgiving them their trespasses and telling them to sin no more.

That makes Francis a better Christian than you IMO.

He has not AUTHORITY to give people "permission" to forgive
And I still think your issue with me is that I'm a woman.

 

[Derideo_Te]

So basically I get to be different than Catholics because they regard social/economic justice as a means to an end and I see it as an end unto itself? That... definitely does help with all of this.

No, social/economic justice is not a means to an end for Catholics. That is a five hundered year old slur against Catholics by Protestants who claim that Catholics say people must earn their way to heaven.

Many Protestant denominations follow the Reformation's subjective teaching that heaven is guaranteed the moment the individual repents and believes in Christ, and after that point nothing can take away that guarantee of heaven because "Once Saved, Always Saved."

Catholic teaching is much less subjective, relying on two objective teachings of Christ: Repent (turn away from sin and to God) and discern the will of the Father and follow it. This is The Way of Eternal life, and it begins right here, right now. Many non-Catholic denominations teach "saved" or "salvation" as something that occurs after death, in heaven.

Catholics see it differently. Catholics believe salvation begins with baptism and is a way of life. Catholics believe and work towards God's will be done on earth as it is in heaven. God's kingdom is right here on earth, within reach, if we choose to enter into it.

My husband is an atheist, I am a Catholic. The difference between us is that I have a relationship (and therefore a few experiences) with God. I have always had a deep and all encompassing desire to get to know God better. My husband doesn't hold a belief of God, or that one is even necessary. But our beliefs of right and wrong pretty much coincide on everything.

Did you see what your joke of a Pope said?
He PERMITS priests to forgive abortions?
ONLY GOD can forgive!
If a girl wants forgiveness for an abortion, all she has to do is pray to God sincerely for it.
FRAUD!

Pope Francis is doing exactly what Jesus would have done under the circumstances.

In essence he is forgiving them their trespasses and telling them to sin no more.

That makes Francis a better Christian than you IMO.

He has not AUTHORITY to give people "permission" to forgive
And I still think your issue with me is that I'm a woman.

Jesus passed on the power to forgive sins to the apostles and the pope is the successor to the apostle Peter.

Why are you deflecting by playing the "female card"? Nowhere have I ever alluded to your gender. I only respond to what you post.

 

[Meriweather]

He has not AUTHORITY to give people "permission" to forgive
And I still think your issue with me is that I'm a woman.

Through Apostolic Succession, priests do have the authority to forgive sins. What is your authority for announcing people can have their sins forgiven if, all on their own, they pray to God? Jews did not seek forgiveness in this manner, and neither did early Christians. Fifteen hundred years after Christ's ascension some announced this practice--yet, by whose authority?