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The thread started out about the killing of a mother and speculation it might be an honor killing. AS another poster pointed out, it might be a killing by an Israeli of this mother. We really do not know much about this case at all. It certainly does not prove anything whatsoever about honor killings.
The thread started out about the killing of a mother and speculation it might be an honor killing. AS another poster pointed out, it might be a killing by an Israeli of this mother. We really do not know much about this case at all. It certainly does not prove anything whatsoever about honor killings.
The thread started out about the killing of a mother and speculation it might be an honor killing. AS another poster pointed out, it might be a killing by an Israeli of this mother. We really do not know much about this case at all. It certainly does not prove anything whatsoever about honor killings.
Are you really denying that Muslims do not partake in Honor Killings??
Where do you read your news from Sherri??
I am not saying that ALL Muslims do so, but every article that I've read about honor killings involved Muslims doing so to honor their 'God'.
The thread started out about the killing of a mother and speculation it might be an honor killing. AS another poster pointed out, it might be a killing by an Israeli of this mother. We really do not know much about this case at all. It certainly does not prove anything whatsoever about honor killings.
Are you really denying that Muslims do not partake in Honor Killings??
Where do you read your news from Sherri??
I am not saying that ALL Muslims do so, but every article that I've read about honor killings involved Muslims doing so to honor their 'God'.
PEOPLE commit honor killings all over the world and the practice predated Islam. I do not exist to demonize and hate Muslims , that is not my purposr for being created as it appears to be yours. YOU need to read a little more, Your post shows a lack of knowledge about honor killings.
It is quite obvious, Frau Sherri, that your purpose in life is to demonize and hate Jews. If this was not the case, you would be on other forums condemning what was happening to other people in places like the Middle East, Southeast Asia, and Africa. Instead you appear to be all over the Internet just bashing the Jews and Israel. Would it really be that much trouble for you to take time out from this and start condemning what is happening to many innocent people by your friends?The thread started out about the killing of a mother and speculation it might be an honor killing. AS another poster pointed out, it might be a killing by an Israeli of this mother. We really do not know much about this case at all. It certainly does not prove anything whatsoever about honor killings.
Are you really denying that Muslims do not partake in Honor Killings??
Where do you read your news from Sherri??
I am not saying that ALL Muslims do so, but every article that I've read about honor killings involved Muslims doing so to honor their 'God'.
PEOPLE commit honor killings all over the world and the practice predated Islam. I do not exist to demonize and hate Muslims , that is not my purposr for being created as it appears to be yours. YOU need to read a little more, Your post shows a lack of knowledge about honor killings.
It is quite obvious, Frau Sherri, that your purpose in life is to demonize and hate Jews. If this was not the case, you would be on other forums condemning what was happening to other people in places like the Middle East, Southeast Asia, and Africa. Instead you appear to be all over the Internet just bashing the Jews and Israel. Would it really be that much trouble for you to take time out from this and start condemning what is happening to many innocent people by your friends?Are you really denying that Muslims do not partake in Honor Killings??
Where do you read your news from Sherri??
I am not saying that ALL Muslims do so, but every article that I've read about honor killings involved Muslims doing so to honor their 'God'.
PEOPLE commit honor killings all over the world and the practice predated Islam. I do not exist to demonize and hate Muslims , that is not my purposr for being created as it appears to be yours. YOU need to read a little more, Your post shows a lack of knowledge about honor killings.
You know. You really are beginning to sound either stupid or desperate
Who cares if the arrests are "realtively recent" or "becuase of international pressure" (which, oddly, you support when it comes to that but not when it comes to Israel's human rights abuses). The point is that honor killing IS ILLEGAL despite your repeated lie s to the contrary. It's NOT LEGAL. Ok, do we understand that one simple fact?
Second issue: I've repeatedly (how many times now?) said - that the law is not yet evenly enforced and the issue which Abbas is commenting on is NOT whether it is to be "outlawed" but whether maximum penalties shall be levied. At the moment Abbas has back pedaled in deference to conservative religious pressure. Ok - are we clear?
It IS illegal.
Maximum penalties are thus far NOT levied.
Those are the only actual facts.
As to the rest of it - if they want to be seen as civilized, YES - they need to get on the ball about this. As does India. As does a host of other countries. Just like Israel needs to get on the ball about incarcerating juvaniles without access to parents or lawyers - for stone throwing. Ok - do you GET IT that being civilized is complicated and not one sided? I for one, absolutely agree that such things as honor killing and casual acceptance of rape in some societies and the acceptance of child abuse in the guise of law enforcement is NOT civilized behavior.
Ok. Well, first of all - do you have a link? Second of all, Jordan sounds a lot like Brazil in the 1990's and, frankly - Jordan needs to get on the ball. Eventually, it will.
And we know that the Pro-Israeli's are already handing out candy for anything that bashes the Palestinians.
Do you think maybe, just once, you can see beyond a pro-Israeli/anti-Palesinian narrative and view the real issues? Like, world wide violence to women? Or do you ONLY care when it's a Muslim issue?
In the Muslim Religion " Honor Killings " for the most part are overlooked. It is not just "violence" against women . The fact that they may be finally forced to confront this and change their laws just proves that it is legal !!! Tell us please why men are still offered some " latitude" when it comes to " Honor Killings "
HONOR KILLINGS occur all over the world and are not overlooked at all, where the practice occurs people oppose it and try to stop it. IN the Jewish world, baby killing and killing of civilians gets overlooked. LOOK at those 1500 children your Klansmen in Israel killed since 2000. PROUD BABY KILLERS! What can be lower then this deliberate Jewish killing of nonJewish children? WHAT can be more barbaric? AND why does that not bother you?
Who appointed you as the spokeswoman for Mr. Lucifer? We have been warned about people like you, and that is why so much of your nonsense goes in one ear and out the other, so to speak.It is quite obvious, Frau Sherri, that your purpose in life is to demonize and hate Jews. If this was not the case, you would be on other forums condemning what was happening to other people in places like the Middle East, Southeast Asia, and Africa. Instead you appear to be all over the Internet just bashing the Jews and Israel. Would it really be that much trouble for you to take time out from this and start condemning what is happening to many innocent people by your friends?PEOPLE commit honor killings all over the world and the practice predated Islam. I do not exist to demonize and hate Muslims , that is not my purposr for being created as it appears to be yours. YOU need to read a little more, Your post shows a lack of knowledge about honor killings.
Who appointed you my Shepherd? I have been cautioned to be wary of wolves in sheeps clothing such as yourself. I take those warnings seriously.
So what? These " arrests" of those who commit " Honor Killings are relatively recent only because of the International Pressure put on them. If they want to be seen as " civilized" to the outside world they have to act " civilized", don't they? Next question would be; What jail sentence would they get?
You know. You really are beginning to sound either stupid or desperate
Who cares if the arrests are "realtively recent" or "becuase of international pressure" (which, oddly, you support when it comes to that but not when it comes to Israel's human rights abuses). The point is that honor killing IS ILLEGAL despite your repeated lies to the contrary. It's NOT LEGAL. Ok, do we understand that one simple fact?
Second issue: I've repeatedly (how many times now?) said - that the law is not yet evenly enforced and the issue which Abbas is commenting on is NOT whether it is to be "outlawed" but whether maximum penalties shall be levied. At the moment Abbas has back pedaled in deference to conservative religious pressure. Ok - are we clear?
It IS illegal.
Maximum penalties are thus far NOT levied.
Those are the only actual facts.
As to the rest of it - if they want to be seen as civilized, YES - they need to get on the ball about this. As does India. As does a host of other countries. Just like Israel needs to get on the ball about incarcerating juvaniles without access to parents or lawyers - for stone throwing. Ok - do you GET IT that being civilized is complicated and not one sided? I for one, absolutely agree that such things as honor killing and casual acceptance of rape in some societies and the acceptance of child abuse in the guise of law enforcement is NOT civilized behavior.
Ok. Well, first of all - do you have a link? Second of all, Jordan sounds a lot like Brazil in the 1990's and, frankly - Jordan needs to get on the ball. Eventually, it will.
If Jews were doing this in Israel, the Pro Palestinians would be handing out Candy !!!!
And we know that the Pro-Israeli's are already handing out candy for anything that bashes the Palestinians.
Do you think maybe, just once, you can see beyond a pro-Israeli/anti-Palesinian narrative and view the real issues? Like, world wide violence to women? Or do you ONLY care when it's a Muslim issue?
Care to elaborate on the bold ?
As for your last statement, it's funny that you accuse him of solely applying his comments to Muslims, when in reality it is the pro - Palestinians who are solely focusing their criticism and hate on the issues concerning Israel / Palestine conflict, and claiming Israel is committing atrocities, while turning a blind eye to the REAL issues of the Middle East and the ACTUAL countries who are committing atrocities . Why?
Because the Joooos aren't involved.
So what? These " arrests" of those who commit " Honor Killings are relatively recent only because of the International Pressure put on them. If they want to be seen as " civilized" to the outside world they have to act " civilized", don't they? Next question would be; What jail sentence would they get?
You know. You really are beginning to sound either stupid or desperate
Who cares if the arrests are "realtively recent" or "becuase of international pressure" (which, oddly, you support when it comes to that but not when it comes to Israel's human rights abuses). The point is that honor killing IS ILLEGAL despite your repeated lies to the contrary. It's NOT LEGAL. Ok, do we understand that one simple fact?
Second issue: I've repeatedly (how many times now?) said - that the law is not yet evenly enforced and the issue which Abbas is commenting on is NOT whether it is to be "outlawed" but whether maximum penalties shall be levied. At the moment Abbas has back pedaled in deference to conservative religious pressure. Ok - are we clear?
It IS illegal.
Maximum penalties are thus far NOT levied.
Those are the only actual facts.
As to the rest of it - if they want to be seen as civilized, YES - they need to get on the ball about this. As does India. As does a host of other countries. Just like Israel needs to get on the ball about incarcerating juvaniles without access to parents or lawyers - for stone throwing. Ok - do you GET IT that being civilized is complicated and not one sided? I for one, absolutely agree that such things as honor killing and casual acceptance of rape in some societies and the acceptance of child abuse in the guise of law enforcement is NOT civilized behavior.
Ok. Well, first of all - do you have a link? Second of all, Jordan sounds a lot like Brazil in the 1990's and, frankly - Jordan needs to get on the ball. Eventually, it will.
If Jews were doing this in Israel, the Pro Palestinians would be handing out Candy !!!!
And we know that the Pro-Israeli's are already handing out candy for anything that bashes the Palestinians.
Do you think maybe, just once, you can see beyond a pro-Israeli/anti-Palesinian narrative and view the real issues? Like, world wide violence to women? Or do you ONLY care when it's a Muslim issue?
In the Muslim Religion " Honor Killings " for the most part are overlooked. It is not just "violence" against women . The fact that they may be finally forced to confront this and change their laws just proves that it is legal !!! Tell us please why men are still offered some " latitude" when it comes to " Honor Killings "
In the Muslim Religion " Honor Killings " for the most part are overlooked. It is not just "violence" against women . The fact that they may be finally forced to confront this and change their laws just proves that it is legal !!! Tell us please why men are still offered some " latitude" when it comes to " Honor Killings "
HONOR KILLINGS occur all over the world and are not overlooked at all, where the practice occurs people oppose it and try to stop it. IN the Jewish world, baby killing and killing of civilians gets overlooked. LOOK at those 1500 children your Klansmen in Israel killed since 2000. PROUD BABY KILLERS! What can be lower then this deliberate Jewish killing of nonJewish children? WHAT can be more barbaric? AND why does that not bother you?
HONOR KILLINGS ARE THE MUSLIM WAY OF LIFE !! Do other cultures do it? Of course. However, it PRIMARILY HAPPENS IN THEIR CULTURE! Those 1500 " children" that were killed? Prove that it was " deliberate" You mean the " religion" that is responsible for the DELIBERATE killing of Christians? If it were the other way around you and the rest of those Barbarians in Gaza and the W.Bank
would be handing out Candy; that's why!
All those Barbarians had to do is recognize Israel's right to exist and stop firing Rockets after Israel left Gaza. Instead, they IMMEDIATELY increased their Rocket fire.
As previously stated, I will celebrate the Death of every Palestinian the way you CELEBRATE the Murder of the Fogel Family including the decapitation of their infant !
You know. You really are beginning to sound either stupid or desperate
Who cares if the arrests are "realtively recent" or "becuase of international pressure" (which, oddly, you support when it comes to that but not when it comes to Israel's human rights abuses). The point is that honor killing IS ILLEGAL despite your repeated lies to the contrary. It's NOT LEGAL. Ok, do we understand that one simple fact?
Second issue: I've repeatedly (how many times now?) said - that the law is not yet evenly enforced and the issue which Abbas is commenting on is NOT whether it is to be "outlawed" but whether maximum penalties shall be levied. At the moment Abbas has back pedaled in deference to conservative religious pressure. Ok - are we clear?
It IS illegal.
Maximum penalties are thus far NOT levied.
Those are the only actual facts.
As to the rest of it - if they want to be seen as civilized, YES - they need to get on the ball about this. As does India. As does a host of other countries. Just like Israel needs to get on the ball about incarcerating juvaniles without access to parents or lawyers - for stone throwing. Ok - do you GET IT that being civilized is complicated and not one sided? I for one, absolutely agree that such things as honor killing and casual acceptance of rape in some societies and the acceptance of child abuse in the guise of law enforcement is NOT civilized behavior.
Ok. Well, first of all - do you have a link? Second of all, Jordan sounds a lot like Brazil in the 1990's and, frankly - Jordan needs to get on the ball. Eventually, it will.
And we know that the Pro-Israeli's are already handing out candy for anything that bashes the Palestinians.
Do you think maybe, just once, you can see beyond a pro-Israeli/anti-Palesinian narrative and view the real issues? Like, world wide violence to women? Or do you ONLY care when it's a Muslim issue?
Care to elaborate on the bold ?
Yes. It's in response to PV's retarded post that Palestinians would be handing out candy.
As for your last statement, it's funny that you accuse him of solely applying his comments to Muslims, when in reality it is the pro - Palestinians who are solely focusing their criticism and hate on the issues concerning Israel / Palestine conflict, and claiming Israel is committing atrocities, while turning a blind eye to the REAL issues of the Middle East and the ACTUAL countries who are committing atrocities . Why?
Toast, I don't know what you are criticizing me about. I've repeated over and over that honor killing and by extension a general acceptance of violence towards women are a widespread problem. I have not denied it is a serious problem in the ME as well as in some other countries.
I've shown facts supporting that it is a cultural problem, not a done in the name of religion.
The discussion was about honor killing - what BLIND eye I am I turning? Unlike some - I'm sticking to the facts rather than demonizing.
Because the Joooos aren't involved.
What the fuck does that have to do with it? Get off the victim bandwagon with the anti-semitic references, and look at the issues being discussed rather than knee jerking in defense of one side!
Care to elaborate on the bold ?
Yes. It's in response to PV's retarded post that Palestinians would be handing out candy.
Toast, I don't know what you are criticizing me about. I've repeated over and over that honor killing and by extension a general acceptance of violence towards women are a widespread problem. I have not denied it is a serious problem in the ME as well as in some other countries.
I've shown facts supporting that it is a cultural problem, not a done in the name of religion.
The discussion was about honor killing - what BLIND eye I am I turning? Unlike some - I'm sticking to the facts rather than demonizing.
Because the Joooos aren't involved.
What the fuck does that have to do with it? Get off the victim bandwagon with the anti-semitic references, and look at the issues being discussed rather than knee jerking in defense of one side!
You are the Retard who denies the Palestinians woud be handing out Candy. They have named streets after SUICIDE BOMBERS! What does that tell you; You Jerk Off??
" Honor Killing" is MORE then " violence against women". You can deny this all you want; It's not going to change facts It IS done in the name of " religion"
I don't think a person talking about honor killings among Muslims is actually bigoted. I think the person is just stating a fact. There have been plenty of articles about honor killings, and we have seen how they are now happening in the U.S. and Europe. The sad thing is that young women in the prime of their lives are murdered by a member of their family because of a supposed stain they put on their families, such as the daughter becoming too Westernized or the daughter is interested in someone who is not of the same religion. Being that you had brought up Hindus, I thought this article was interesting.Yes. It's in response to PV's retarded post that Palestinians would be handing out candy.
Toast, I don't know what you are criticizing me about. I've repeated over and over that honor killing and by extension a general acceptance of violence towards women are a widespread problem. I have not denied it is a serious problem in the ME as well as in some other countries.
I've shown facts supporting that it is a cultural problem, not a done in the name of religion.
The discussion was about honor killing - what BLIND eye I am I turning? Unlike some - I'm sticking to the facts rather than demonizing.
What the fuck does that have to do with it? Get off the victim bandwagon with the anti-semitic references, and look at the issues being discussed rather than knee jerking in defense of one side!
You are the Retard who denies the Palestinians woud be handing out Candy. They have named streets after SUICIDE BOMBERS! What does that tell you; You Jerk Off??
Ya, and Israel commemorates the King David Hotel Bombing each year (or at least one city there does) - so what? Their old terrorists become political leaders. There's not friggin' difference. Israel considers their personal terrorists to be freedom fighters and Palestine considers their personal terrorists to be freedom fighters.
" Honor Killing" is MORE then " violence against women". You can deny this all you want; It's not going to change facts It IS done in the name of " religion"
Well, since you have yet to show it is done in the name of religion and you steadfastly refuse to answer the question of why the most populous Muslim nation, amongst others do not engage in it or why non-Muslim cultures engage in it then I'll continue to call your bigoted bullshit exactly what it is: bigoted bullshit.
Aside from that - Honor Killing is the extreme end of the spectrum that is culturally accepted violence towards women. I, frankly, do not see how it is worse than female infanticide or a brutal gang rape that leaves a young woman in a coma and finally death. It's all coming from the same source - you just refuse to see it because you want to see Islam as the source of all evil and if it's not Muslims doing it, you don't give a shit.
I don't think a person talking about honor killings among Muslims is actually bigoted.You are the Retard who denies the Palestinians woud be handing out Candy. They have named streets after SUICIDE BOMBERS! What does that tell you; You Jerk Off??
Ya, and Israel commemorates the King David Hotel Bombing each year (or at least one city there does) - so what? Their old terrorists become political leaders. There's not friggin' difference. Israel considers their personal terrorists to be freedom fighters and Palestine considers their personal terrorists to be freedom fighters.
" Honor Killing" is MORE then " violence against women". You can deny this all you want; It's not going to change facts It IS done in the name of " religion"
Well, since you have yet to show it is done in the name of religion and you steadfastly refuse to answer the question of why the most populous Muslim nation, amongst others do not engage in it or why non-Muslim cultures engage in it then I'll continue to call your bigoted bullshit exactly what it is: bigoted bullshit.
Aside from that - Honor Killing is the extreme end of the spectrum that is culturally accepted violence towards women. I, frankly, do not see how it is worse than female infanticide or a brutal gang rape that leaves a young woman in a coma and finally death. It's all coming from the same source - you just refuse to see it because you want to see Islam as the source of all evil and if it's not Muslims doing it, you don't give a shit.
I think the person is just stating a fact.
]There have been plenty of articles about honor killings, and we have seen how they are now happening in the U.S. and Europe.
Canada
A 2007 study by Dr. Amin Muhammad and Dr. Sujay Patel of Memorial University, Canada, investigated how the practice of honor killings has been brought to Canada. The report explained that "[w]hen people come and settle in Canada they can bring their traditions and forcefully follow them. In some cultures, people feel some boundaries are never to be crossed, and if someone would violate those practices or go against it, then killing is justified to them." The report noted that "In different cultures, they can get away without being punishedthe courts actually sanction them under religious contexts". The report also said that the people who commit these crimes are usually mentally ill, and that the mental health aspect is often ignored by Western observers because of a lack of understanding of the insufficiently developed state of mental healthcare in developing countries in which honor killings are prevalent.[67]
Canada has been host to a number of high profile killings, including the murder of Kaur Sidhu[68], the murder of Amandeep Atwal[69], the double murder of Khatera Sadiqi and her fiance[70], and the Shafia family murders.[70][71]
Honor killings have become such a pressing issue in Canada that the Canadian citizenship study guide mentions it specifically, saying, "Canada's openness and generosity do not extend to barbaric cultural practices that tolerate spousal abuse, 'honour killings', female genital mutilation, forced marriage or other gender-based violence."[70]
United States
Honor killing in the United States
A 2009 article by Phyllis Chesler in Middle East Quarterly[72] argues that the United States is far behind Europe in acknowledging that honor killings are a special form of domestic violence, requiring special training and special programs to protect the young women and girls most likely to be the victim of such practices. The article suggests that the fear of being labeled "culturally insensitive" often prevents government officials in the United States and the media from identifying and accurately reporting these incidents as "honor killings" when they occur. Failing to accurately describe the problem makes it more difficult to develop public policies to address it.
The article reports that, although there are not many cases of honor killings within the United States, the overwhelming majority of honor killings are perpetrated by Muslims against Muslims (90% of honor killings known to have taken place in Europe and the United States from 1998 to 2008).[72] In these documented cases the victims were murdered because they were believed to have acted in a way against the religion of the family. In every case, perpetrators view their victims as violating rules of religious conduct and act without remorse.[72]
Although Hindu honor killing is a gruesome and sordid affair, it differs in many important respects from honor killing in neighboring Pakistan and other Muslim countries. Indian Hindus murder men for honor more often than do Pakistani Muslims, and they murder for reasons mainly related to concerns about caste purity.
Perhaps the most striking characteristic of Hindu honor killings is the fact that Indians abandon the horrific practice when they migrate to the West whereas many Pakistani Muslims carry it with them. Part of the explanation may lie in their different patterns of acculturation upon immigrating to the West. Young Hindus in the West are no less prone to violate traditional social codes than young Muslims, and their parents may be no less furious when they do, but Hindu families in the West do not feel the same degree of public humiliation and shame as they might experience back in India. They are eager to preserve their cultural identity but not at the expense of alienating their adoptive communities. The absence of dreaded khap panchayats no doubt mitigates the consequences of dishonor.
Due in part to the spread of radical Islamist ideology, Muslim immigrants in the West are either radicalized or socialize predominantly within Muslim-only communities, and their conception of honor reflects this. Even affluent young women of Pakistani descent in the West can face the credible threat of death or severe bodily harm. Actress Afshan Azad, who played Padma Patil in the Harry Potter film series, was beaten and threatened with death in 2010 by her Pakistani father and brother for dating a non-Muslim.[59] If she can be victimized, anyone can.
While it is alarming that there are so many honor killings in India and Pakistan, there may yet be cause for hope. Every honor killing begins with a rebellion against tribalism and patriarchyor with a fear that tribal and patriarchal values are under attack. Many of the victims in our study were people who believed that they could push traditional boundaries, that they could get away with asserting their rights. They were wrong, and they paid the ultimate price for that mistake, but the key is that they tried. More rebels will follow.
The sad thing is that young women in the prime of their lives are murdered by a member of their family because of a supposed stain they put on their families, such as the daughter becoming too Westernized or the daughter is interested in someone who is not of the same religion. Being that you had brought up Hindus, I thought this article was interesting.
Hindu vs. Muslim Honor Killings :: The Phyllis Chesler Organization
You can go on and on about this forever, Coyote, but the fact remains that most of the honor killings are committed by people who are Muslims. I just hope that they don't bring this custom of honor killings here to the U.S. on a regular basis. We all know that people have killed their children here for one reason or another (usually because the person has been mentally deranged), but no one except those giving a pass to Islamic culture and customs, will deny that honor killings with regard to putting a stain on the family name are mainly prevalent in Muslim societies. I heard that the UN has a group of women meeting who are discussing violence against women, and it is a shame that you don't live in New York where you can attend these meetings.I don't think a person talking about honor killings among Muslims is actually bigoted.Ya, and Israel commemorates the King David Hotel Bombing each year (or at least one city there does) - so what? Their old terrorists become political leaders. There's not friggin' difference. Israel considers their personal terrorists to be freedom fighters and Palestine considers their personal terrorists to be freedom fighters.
Well, since you have yet to show it is done in the name of religion and you steadfastly refuse to answer the question of why the most populous Muslim nation, amongst others do not engage in it or why non-Muslim cultures engage in it then I'll continue to call your bigoted bullshit exactly what it is: bigoted bullshit.
Aside from that - Honor Killing is the extreme end of the spectrum that is culturally accepted violence towards women. I, frankly, do not see how it is worse than female infanticide or a brutal gang rape that leaves a young woman in a coma and finally death. It's all coming from the same source - you just refuse to see it because you want to see Islam as the source of all evil and if it's not Muslims doing it, you don't give a shit.
Talking about it? No.
But when you move on to labeling it as something specifically supported by that religion, and when you likewise ignore the fact that honor killing occurs frequently outside of the Muslim religion - then yes. It begins to look like bigoted fear mongering.
Depends. That same person ignores that honor killing does not occur in all Muslim countries and does occur in non-Muslim populations of those countries.
Why are those facts ignored? I'll tell you. The real concern is Islam, not Honor Killing.
]
Actually - they are very very rare in western countries. They are sensational and brutal and go against our values so they appear in the media (blood, gore, sex sells) but they are still very rare and mainly among recent immigrants. In addition, some of them are less honor killings than an extension of domestic violence.
From Wikipedia:
Wikipedia also has this, referencing the author who's article you linked:
Now, the thing is - the Canadian article points out that it's the culture that is the problem, and that makes sense. Your author, who is quoted here - wrote an excellent article and makes some good points in her conclusion - however, there is one glaring point: her research was with Hindu's in India and Muslims in Pakistan and dealt with one immigrant group: Pakistani's. I think a lot of what she says makes sense - but, it's also very much culture within a fundamentalist Islamic outlook.
Although Hindu honor killing is a gruesome and sordid affair, it differs in many important respects from honor killing in neighboring Pakistan and other Muslim countries. Indian Hindus murder men for honor more often than do Pakistani Muslims, and they murder for reasons mainly related to concerns about caste purity.
Perhaps the most striking characteristic of Hindu honor killings is the fact that Indians abandon the horrific practice when they migrate to the West whereas many Pakistani Muslims carry it with them. Part of the explanation may lie in their different patterns of acculturation upon immigrating to the West. Young Hindus in the West are no less prone to violate traditional social codes than young Muslims, and their parents may be no less furious when they do, but Hindu families in the West do not feel the same degree of public humiliation and shame as they might experience back in India. They are eager to preserve their cultural identity but not at the expense of alienating their adoptive communities. The absence of dreaded khap panchayats no doubt mitigates the consequences of dishonor.
Due in part to the spread of radical Islamist ideology, Muslim immigrants in the West are either radicalized or socialize predominantly within Muslim-only communities, and their conception of honor reflects this. Even affluent young women of Pakistani descent in the West can face the credible threat of death or severe bodily harm. Actress Afshan Azad, who played Padma Patil in the Harry Potter film series, was beaten and threatened with death in 2010 by her Pakistani father and brother for dating a non-Muslim.[59] If she can be victimized, anyone can.
While it is alarming that there are so many honor killings in India and Pakistan, there may yet be cause for hope. Every honor killing begins with a rebellion against tribalism and patriarchyor with a fear that tribal and patriarchal values are under attack. Many of the victims in our study were people who believed that they could push traditional boundaries, that they could get away with asserting their rights. They were wrong, and they paid the ultimate price for that mistake, but the key is that they tried. More rebels will follow.
My argument is culture for the following reasons:
- there is nothing specific in the religion endorsing or supporting honor killing (certainly no more than Judaism or Christianity).
- similar cultures in India for example, practice it and non-Muslim minorities in Muslim ME countries practice it.
- it is rare (if at all) in Indonesia - the most heavily populated muslim nation, it's non-existent in non-immigrant western muslim communities.
So why do people make it about a religion than about the cultural values of those countries and their immigrants? There is a relation between religion and culture, but it has more to do with how that culture chooses to interpret that religion. Some will say it's PC refusing to acknowledge "reality" - but I think, in light of the above inconsistencies - it's bigotry refusing to entertain the idea that Islam is not the source of all evil.
The sad thing is that young women in the prime of their lives are murdered by a member of their family because of a supposed stain they put on their families, such as the daughter becoming too Westernized or the daughter is interested in someone who is not of the same religion. Being that you had brought up Hindus, I thought this article was interesting.
Hindu vs. Muslim Honor Killings :: The Phyllis Chesler Organization
To me - the reason for the killing is less important then the murder of innocent girls and women. It's gruesome and wrong regardless of whether it's "family honor", caste differences, socially accepted rape or machismo "crimes of passion" - all of which are often overlooked in societies that condone or ignore violence against women. When people try to make a religion a primary culprit in these happenings, it tells me they don't care as much when it happens outside of the Islam. It's kind of like your frequent argument against Sherri: ....why don't you care when xyz outrages are being purpretrated against qrt in lmno.
You can go on and on about this forever, Coyote, but the fact remains that most of the honor killings are committed by people who are Muslims. I just hope that they don't bring this custom of honor killings here to the U.S. on a regular basis. We all know that people have killed their children here for one reason or another (usually because the person has been mentally deranged), but no one except those giving a pass to Islamic culture and customs, will deny that honor killings with regard to putting a stain on the family name are mainly prevalent in Muslim societies. I heard that the UN has a group of women meeting who are discussing violence against women, and it is a shame that you don't live in New York where you can attend these meetings.I don't think a person talking about honor killings among Muslims is actually bigoted.
Talking about it? No.
But when you move on to labeling it as something specifically supported by that religion, and when you likewise ignore the fact that honor killing occurs frequently outside of the Muslim religion - then yes. It begins to look like bigoted fear mongering.
Depends. That same person ignores that honor killing does not occur in all Muslim countries and does occur in non-Muslim populations of those countries.
Why are those facts ignored? I'll tell you. The real concern is Islam, not Honor Killing.
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Actually - they are very very rare in western countries. They are sensational and brutal and go against our values so they appear in the media (blood, gore, sex sells) but they are still very rare and mainly among recent immigrants. In addition, some of them are less honor killings than an extension of domestic violence.
From Wikipedia:
Wikipedia also has this, referencing the author who's article you linked:
Now, the thing is - the Canadian article points out that it's the culture that is the problem, and that makes sense. Your author, who is quoted here - wrote an excellent article and makes some good points in her conclusion - however, there is one glaring point: her research was with Hindu's in India and Muslims in Pakistan and dealt with one immigrant group: Pakistani's. I think a lot of what she says makes sense - but, it's also very much culture within a fundamentalist Islamic outlook.
My argument is culture for the following reasons:
- there is nothing specific in the religion endorsing or supporting honor killing (certainly no more than Judaism or Christianity).
- similar cultures in India for example, practice it and non-Muslim minorities in Muslim ME countries practice it.
- it is rare (if at all) in Indonesia - the most heavily populated muslim nation, it's non-existent in non-immigrant western muslim communities.
So why do people make it about a religion than about the cultural values of those countries and their immigrants? There is a relation between religion and culture, but it has more to do with how that culture chooses to interpret that religion. Some will say it's PC refusing to acknowledge "reality" - but I think, in light of the above inconsistencies - it's bigotry refusing to entertain the idea that Islam is not the source of all evil.
The sad thing is that young women in the prime of their lives are murdered by a member of their family because of a supposed stain they put on their families, such as the daughter becoming too Westernized or the daughter is interested in someone who is not of the same religion. Being that you had brought up Hindus, I thought this article was interesting.
Hindu vs. Muslim Honor Killings :: The Phyllis Chesler Organization
To me - the reason for the killing is less important then the murder of innocent girls and women. It's gruesome and wrong regardless of whether it's "family honor", caste differences, socially accepted rape or machismo "crimes of passion" - all of which are often overlooked in societies that condone or ignore violence against women. When people try to make a religion a primary culprit in these happenings, it tells me they don't care as much when it happens outside of the Islam. It's kind of like your frequent argument against Sherri: ....why don't you care when xyz outrages are being purpretrated against qrt in lmno.
