Toddler finds mother shot dead in Umm al-Fahm

[Hossfly]

Talking about it? No.

But when you move on to labeling it as something specifically supported by that religion, and when you likewise ignore the fact that honor killing occurs frequently outside of the Muslim religion - then yes. It begins to look like bigoted fear mongering.



Depends. That same person ignores that honor killing does not occur in all Muslim countries and does occur in non-Muslim populations of those countries.

Why are those facts ignored? I'll tell you. The real concern is Islam, not Honor Killing.

]

Actually - they are very very rare in western countries. They are sensational and brutal and go against our values so they appear in the media (blood, gore, sex sells) but they are still very rare and mainly among recent immigrants. In addition, some of them are less honor killings than an extension of domestic violence.

From Wikipedia:


Wikipedia also has this, referencing the author who's article you linked:



Now, the thing is - the Canadian article points out that it's the culture that is the problem, and that makes sense. Your author, who is quoted here - wrote an excellent article and makes some good points in her conclusion - however, there is one glaring point: her research was with Hindu's in India and Muslims in Pakistan and dealt with one immigrant group: Pakistani's. I think a lot of what she says makes sense - but, it's also very much culture within a fundamentalist Islamic outlook.




My argument is culture for the following reasons:
- there is nothing specific in the religion endorsing or supporting honor killing (certainly no more than Judaism or Christianity).
- similar cultures in India for example, practice it and non-Muslim minorities in Muslim ME countries practice it.
- it is rare (if at all) in Indonesia - the most heavily populated muslim nation, it's non-existent in non-immigrant western muslim communities.


So why do people make it about a religion than about the cultural values of those countries and their immigrants? There is a relation between religion and culture, but it has more to do with how that culture chooses to interpret that religion. Some will say it's PC refusing to acknowledge "reality" - but I think, in light of the above inconsistencies - it's bigotry refusing to entertain the idea that Islam is not the source of all evil.



To me - the reason for the killing is less important then the murder of innocent girls and women. It's gruesome and wrong regardless of whether it's "family honor", caste differences, socially accepted rape or machismo "crimes of passion" - all of which are often overlooked in societies that condone or ignore violence against women. When people try to make a religion a primary culprit in these happenings, it tells me they don't care as much when it happens outside of the Islam. It's kind of like your frequent argument against Sherri: ....why don't you care when xyz outrages are being purpretrated against qrt in lmno.

You can go on and on about this forever, Coyote, but the fact remains that most of the honor killings are committed by people who are Muslims. I just hope that they don't bring this custom of honor killings here to the U.S. on a regular basis. We all know that people have killed their children here for one reason or another (usually because the person has been mentally deranged), but no one except those giving a pass to Islamic culture and customs, will deny that honor killings with regard to putting a stain on the family name are mainly prevalent in Muslim societies. I heard that the UN has a group of women meeting who are discussing violence against women, and it is a shame that you don't live in New York where you can attend these meetings.

It's a shame you can't see the problem beyond the lense of Islam or the irony of labeling non-Muslim killings usually the act of a "deranged mind" and implying that those honor killings done by Muslims are not.

Unlike you, Hoss - I do not see it as a Muslim problem but a serious problem of violence against women that spans cultures and religions and unlike YOU - I don't care what religion fosters the violence towards innocent women - I only care that it be addressed. If you call it a "free-pass", then what, pray tell do you call your general indifference (or perhaps it's a free pass) to non-Islamic violence towards women?

I am not indifferent or giving free passes. Just remarking on what I see the most. 99% of the time it's done by you-know-who.

 

[Coyote]

You can go on and on about this forever, Coyote, but the fact remains that most of the honor killings are committed by people who are Muslims. I just hope that they don't bring this custom of honor killings here to the U.S. on a regular basis. We all know that people have killed their children here for one reason or another (usually because the person has been mentally deranged), but no one except those giving a pass to Islamic culture and customs, will deny that honor killings with regard to putting a stain on the family name are mainly prevalent in Muslim societies. I heard that the UN has a group of women meeting who are discussing violence against women, and it is a shame that you don't live in New York where you can attend these meetings.

It's a shame you can't see the problem beyond the lense of Islam or the irony of labeling non-Muslim killings usually the act of a "deranged mind" and implying that those honor killings done by Muslims are not.

Unlike you, Hoss - I do not see it as a Muslim problem but a serious problem of violence against women that spans cultures and religions and unlike YOU - I don't care what religion fosters the violence towards innocent women - I only care that it be addressed. If you call it a "free-pass", then what, pray tell do you call your general indifference (or perhaps it's a free pass) to non-Islamic violence towards women?

I am not indifferent or giving free passes. Just remarking on what I see the most. 99% of the time it's done by you-know-who.

I'm not giving free passes either Hoss. I'm simply noting the role culture plays over religion and putting the emphasis and blame squarely where it belongs. We don't need more hate mongering.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

You can go on and on about this forever, Coyote, but the fact remains that most of the honor killings are committed by people who are Muslims. I just hope that they don't bring this custom of honor killings here to the U.S. on a regular basis. We all know that people have killed their children here for one reason or another (usually because the person has been mentally deranged), but no one except those giving a pass to Islamic culture and customs, will deny that honor killings with regard to putting a stain on the family name are mainly prevalent in Muslim societies. I heard that the UN has a group of women meeting who are discussing violence against women, and it is a shame that you don't live in New York where you can attend these meetings.

It's a shame you can't see the problem beyond the lense of Islam or the irony of labeling non-Muslim killings usually the act of a "deranged mind" and implying that those honor killings done by Muslims are not.

Unlike you, Hoss - I do not see it as a Muslim problem but a serious problem of violence against women that spans cultures and religions and unlike YOU - I don't care what religion fosters the violence towards innocent women - I only care that it be addressed. If you call it a "free-pass", then what, pray tell do you call your general indifference (or perhaps it's a free pass) to non-Islamic violence towards women?

I am not indifferent or giving free passes. Just remarking on what I see the most. 99% of the time it's done by you-know-who.

We have over 8000 Palestinians killed by Israel, most of them civilans and many women were killed. I never heard a word of criticism from you over any of those killings of Arab women by Zionists.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

I read a real news story that was heartbreaking about.an honor killing and even went back and found it and reread it a few days ago and I did not start a thread on it because I knew it would become all about demonizing Muslims. And that takes us nowhere. In one of Arthur Gishes books, he mentions a woman in At TUWANI who was trying to start an organization addressing abuses against women. And the truth is it is with women like her who join with others to address the human rights abuses they face as women, that changes will come about.

 

[freedombecki]

Talking about it? No.

But when you move on to labeling it as something specifically supported by that religion, and when you likewise ignore the fact that honor killing occurs frequently outside of the Muslim religion - then yes. It begins to look like bigoted fear mongering.



Depends. That same person ignores that honor killing does not occur in all Muslim countries and does occur in non-Muslim populations of those countries.

Why are those facts ignored? I'll tell you. The real concern is Islam, not Honor Killing.

]

Actually - they are very very rare in western countries. They are sensational and brutal and go against our values so they appear in the media (blood, gore, sex sells) but they are still very rare and mainly among recent immigrants. In addition, some of them are less honor killings than an extension of domestic violence.

From Wikipedia:


Wikipedia also has this, referencing the author who's article you linked:



Now, the thing is - the Canadian article points out that it's the culture that is the problem, and that makes sense. Your author, who is quoted here - wrote an excellent article and makes some good points in her conclusion - however, there is one glaring point: her research was with Hindu's in India and Muslims in Pakistan and dealt with one immigrant group: Pakistani's. I think a lot of what she says makes sense - but, it's also very much culture within a fundamentalist Islamic outlook.




My argument is culture for the following reasons:
- there is nothing specific in the religion endorsing or supporting honor killing (certainly no more than Judaism or Christianity).
- similar cultures in India for example, practice it and non-Muslim minorities in Muslim ME countries practice it.
- it is rare (if at all) in Indonesia - the most heavily populated muslim nation, it's non-existent in non-immigrant western muslim communities.


So why do people make it about a religion than about the cultural values of those countries and their immigrants? There is a relation between religion and culture, but it has more to do with how that culture chooses to interpret that religion. Some will say it's PC refusing to acknowledge "reality" - but I think, in light of the above inconsistencies - it's bigotry refusing to entertain the idea that Islam is not the source of all evil.



To me - the reason for the killing is less important then the murder of innocent girls and women. It's gruesome and wrong regardless of whether it's "family honor", caste differences, socially accepted rape or machismo "crimes of passion" - all of which are often overlooked in societies that condone or ignore violence against women. When people try to make a religion a primary culprit in these happenings, it tells me they don't care as much when it happens outside of the Islam. It's kind of like your frequent argument against Sherri: ....why don't you care when xyz outrages are being purpretrated against qrt in lmno.

You can go on and on about this forever, Coyote, but the fact remains that most of the honor killings are committed by people who are Muslims. I just hope that they don't bring this custom of honor killings here to the U.S. on a regular basis. We all know that people have killed their children here for one reason or another (usually because the person has been mentally deranged), but no one except those giving a pass to Islamic culture and customs, will deny that honor killings with regard to putting a stain on the family name are mainly prevalent in Muslim societies. I heard that the UN has a group of women meeting who are discussing violence against women, and it is a shame that you don't live in New York where you can attend these meetings.

It's a shame you can't see the problem beyond the lense of Islam or the irony of labeling non-Muslim killings usually the act of a "deranged mind" and implying that those honor killings done by Muslims are not.

Unlike you, Hoss - I do not see it as a Muslim problem but a serious problem of violence against women that spans cultures and religions and unlike YOU - I don't care what religion fosters the violence towards innocent women - I only care that it be addressed. If you call it a "free-pass", then what, pray tell do you call your general indifference (or perhaps it's a free pass) to non-Islamic violence towards women?

Coyote, his concern is mine: honor killings are required in some sects of Islam.

Here, honor killings will only be against the law if we refuse to adopt "Sharia Law" which in a nutshell amounts to "you have to leave me alone because I am a religious person."

It is against our Constitution to make one set of laws for one group and another set of laws for another--so far.

When that unequal circumstances changes back, it will favor Islam, and womens', progress here is no more. Did you read the International headlines this morning? Pakistan removed their womens' voting due to Islamic law.

The writing is on the wall should we ever, ever let our guard down and accept different laws for different people rather than the Constitution.

 

[Coyote]

You can go on and on about this forever, Coyote, but the fact remains that most of the honor killings are committed by people who are Muslims. I just hope that they don't bring this custom of honor killings here to the U.S. on a regular basis. We all know that people have killed their children here for one reason or another (usually because the person has been mentally deranged), but no one except those giving a pass to Islamic culture and customs, will deny that honor killings with regard to putting a stain on the family name are mainly prevalent in Muslim societies. I heard that the UN has a group of women meeting who are discussing violence against women, and it is a shame that you don't live in New York where you can attend these meetings.

It's a shame you can't see the problem beyond the lense of Islam or the irony of labeling non-Muslim killings usually the act of a "deranged mind" and implying that those honor killings done by Muslims are not.

Unlike you, Hoss - I do not see it as a Muslim problem but a serious problem of violence against women that spans cultures and religions and unlike YOU - I don't care what religion fosters the violence towards innocent women - I only care that it be addressed. If you call it a "free-pass", then what, pray tell do you call your general indifference (or perhaps it's a free pass) to non-Islamic violence towards women?

Coyote, his concern is mine: honor killings are required in some sects of Islam.

What sects of Islam "require" it and where is it written?

Here, honor killings will only be against the law if we refuse to adopt "Sharia Law" which in a nutshell amounts to "you have to leave me alone because I am a religious person."

Honor killings are not part of Sharia.

It is against our Constitution to make one set of laws for one group and another set of laws for another--so far.

Sort of but not totally true.

Religious preferences have been used in voluntarily settling disputes related to marriage, inheritance, divorce and certain types of contracts and not just Islam. The thing is - it never trumps US or State law so it's not making "one set of laws" or some and another for others - or at least not any more than voluntarily agreeing using Catholic moderators to settle marital disputes in a form of "binding arbritation" rather than a divorce court.

It's can also used in determining disputes over contracts (like marriage or divorce or inheritance) that originated outside the US if the country it originated in used Sharia.

Sharia is not this big bogeyman people want to make it out to be - it's pretty diverse in the manner in which it's interpreted and much of it involves civil matters - from handling money and contracts, divorce, marriage, inheritance etc. It's not all or even mostly chopping off hands and stoning adulterers and homosexuals (which, by the way is Biblical law as well).

When that unequal circumstances changes back, it will favor Islam, and womens', progress here is no more. Did you read the International headlines this morning? Pakistan removed their womens' voting due to Islamic law.

Pakistan is not the US and, like I said - if Christians (like the Dominionists) haven't been able to force their brand of religious law on us in 200 years why on earth do people think Muslims could?

The writing is on the wall should we ever, ever let our guard down and accept different laws for different people rather than the Constitution.

We've used different laws for different people voluntarily for centuries with no issue, in the civil code - the Amish, Jews, Catholics, Muslims and assorted other sects have made use of religious courts or law, in civil matters where both parties are willing. Criminal law is a different matter.

 

[Hossfly]

Talking about it? No.

But when you move on to labeling it as something specifically supported by that religion, and when you likewise ignore the fact that honor killing occurs frequently outside of the Muslim religion - then yes. It begins to look like bigoted fear mongering.



Depends. That same person ignores that honor killing does not occur in all Muslim countries and does occur in non-Muslim populations of those countries.

Why are those facts ignored? I'll tell you. The real concern is Islam, not Honor Killing.

]

Actually - they are very very rare in western countries. They are sensational and brutal and go against our values so they appear in the media (blood, gore, sex sells) but they are still very rare and mainly among recent immigrants. In addition, some of them are less honor killings than an extension of domestic violence.

From Wikipedia:


Wikipedia also has this, referencing the author who's article you linked:



Now, the thing is - the Canadian article points out that it's the culture that is the problem, and that makes sense. Your author, who is quoted here - wrote an excellent article and makes some good points in her conclusion - however, there is one glaring point: her research was with Hindu's in India and Muslims in Pakistan and dealt with one immigrant group: Pakistani's. I think a lot of what she says makes sense - but, it's also very much culture within a fundamentalist Islamic outlook.




My argument is culture for the following reasons:
- there is nothing specific in the religion endorsing or supporting honor killing (certainly no more than Judaism or Christianity).
- similar cultures in India for example, practice it and non-Muslim minorities in Muslim ME countries practice it.
- it is rare (if at all) in Indonesia - the most heavily populated muslim nation, it's non-existent in non-immigrant western muslim communities.


So why do people make it about a religion than about the cultural values of those countries and their immigrants? There is a relation between religion and culture, but it has more to do with how that culture chooses to interpret that religion. Some will say it's PC refusing to acknowledge "reality" - but I think, in light of the above inconsistencies - it's bigotry refusing to entertain the idea that Islam is not the source of all evil.



To me - the reason for the killing is less important then the murder of innocent girls and women. It's gruesome and wrong regardless of whether it's "family honor", caste differences, socially accepted rape or machismo "crimes of passion" - all of which are often overlooked in societies that condone or ignore violence against women. When people try to make a religion a primary culprit in these happenings, it tells me they don't care as much when it happens outside of the Islam. It's kind of like your frequent argument against Sherri: ....why don't you care when xyz outrages are being purpretrated against qrt in lmno.

You can go on and on about this forever, Coyote, but the fact remains that most of the honor killings are committed by people who are Muslims. I just hope that they don't bring this custom of honor killings here to the U.S. on a regular basis. We all know that people have killed their children here for one reason or another (usually because the person has been mentally deranged), but no one except those giving a pass to Islamic culture and customs, will deny that honor killings with regard to putting a stain on the family name are mainly prevalent in Muslim societies. I heard that the UN has a group of women meeting who are discussing violence against women, and it is a shame that you don't live in New York where you can attend these meetings.

It's a shame you can't see the problem beyond the lense of Islam or the irony of labeling non-Muslim killings usually the act of a "deranged mind" and implying that those honor killings done by Muslims are not.

Unlike you, Hoss - I do not see it as a Muslim problem but a serious problem of violence against women that spans cultures and religions and unlike YOU - I don't care what religion fosters the violence towards innocent women - I only care that it be addressed. If you call it a "free-pass", then what, pray tell do you call your general indifference (or perhaps it's a free pass) to non-Islamic violence towards women?

Well I think it is a shame that you can't see that is mainly done by Muslims. it appears that you want to give the Muslims a pass when it comes to this. I think all of us on this forum realize that there is violence against women in all parts of the world, but I also think that those who aren't trying to give a pass to the main perpetrators of honor killings realize that most of the honor killings are done by Muslims. I realize that some honor killings are done by people with deranged minds, but I don't think the majority are, especially if there are more than one family member involved in killing a female in the family. Tell you what, Coyote, since you appear to think that honor killings are very common in the non Muslim world, why not give us some statistics of the honor killings among the different religions. If there are no statistics available, I am sure you can show us articles about honor killings committed by the different religions in this world.

 

[Coyote]

You can go on and on about this forever, Coyote, but the fact remains that most of the honor killings are committed by people who are Muslims. I just hope that they don't bring this custom of honor killings here to the U.S. on a regular basis. We all know that people have killed their children here for one reason or another (usually because the person has been mentally deranged), but no one except those giving a pass to Islamic culture and customs, will deny that honor killings with regard to putting a stain on the family name are mainly prevalent in Muslim societies. I heard that the UN has a group of women meeting who are discussing violence against women, and it is a shame that you don't live in New York where you can attend these meetings.

It's a shame you can't see the problem beyond the lense of Islam or the irony of labeling non-Muslim killings usually the act of a "deranged mind" and implying that those honor killings done by Muslims are not.

Unlike you, Hoss - I do not see it as a Muslim problem but a serious problem of violence against women that spans cultures and religions and unlike YOU - I don't care what religion fosters the violence towards innocent women - I only care that it be addressed. If you call it a "free-pass", then what, pray tell do you call your general indifference (or perhaps it's a free pass) to non-Islamic violence towards women?

Well I think it is a shame that you can't see that is mainly done by Muslims. it appears that you want to give the Muslims a pass when it comes to this.

I don't give anyone a "free pass".

I think all of us on this forum realize that there is violence against women in all parts of the world, but I also think that those who aren't trying to give a pass to the main perpetrators of honor killings realize that most of the honor killings are done by Muslims.

You certainly like to give your own side a lot of credit while accusing the other side of giving a "free pass". However, kind of like Sherri posting about Jews...you only ever seem to post concern about it when it's Muslims doing it.

I realize that some honor killings are done by people with deranged minds, but I don't think the majority are, especially if there are more than one family member involved in killing a female in the family.

I agree, I don't think the majority of them are. But - while you say they are "very common" in the Muslim world, they are not common throughout the Muslim world, as I've repeatedly pointed out. In addition - in those Middle Eastern/Asian countries where they are common - they are common to all the religions there.

Over and over, you ignore that. So is it part of the "religion" or part of the "culture"?

Tell you what, Coyote, since you appear to think that honor killings are very common in the non Muslim world, why not give us some statistics of the honor killings among the different religions. If there are no statistics available, I am sure you can show us articles about honor killings committed by the different religions in this world.

Actually, I didn't say they are "very common" in the non Muslim world. I said they are not unique to the Muslim world nor are they common to the entire Muslim world (as I've said over and over and over). I've already posted references to where honor killings have been committed in India, among Hindus and Sikhs as well as Muslims. I posted a link where a Christian man in a Middle Eastern country also committed an honor killing. I'm not going to repeat it.

 

[Hossfly]

It's a shame you can't see the problem beyond the lense of Islam or the irony of labeling non-Muslim killings usually the act of a "deranged mind" and implying that those honor killings done by Muslims are not.

Unlike you, Hoss - I do not see it as a Muslim problem but a serious problem of violence against women that spans cultures and religions and unlike YOU - I don't care what religion fosters the violence towards innocent women - I only care that it be addressed. If you call it a "free-pass", then what, pray tell do you call your general indifference (or perhaps it's a free pass) to non-Islamic violence towards women?

Well I think it is a shame that you can't see that is mainly done by Muslims. it appears that you want to give the Muslims a pass when it comes to this.

I don't give anyone a "free pass".



You certainly like to give your own side a lot of credit while accusing the other side of giving a "free pass". However, kind of like Sherri posting about Jews...you only ever seem to post concern about it when it's Muslims doing it.

I realize that some honor killings are done by people with deranged minds, but I don't think the majority are, especially if there are more than one family member involved in killing a female in the family.

I agree, I don't think the majority of them are. But - while you say they are "very common" in the Muslim world, they are not common throughout the Muslim world, as I've repeatedly pointed out. In addition - in those Middle Eastern/Asian countries where they are common - they are common to all the religions there.

Over and over, you ignore that. So is it part of the "religion" or part of the "culture"?

Tell you what, Coyote, since you appear to think that honor killings are very common in the non Muslim world, why not give us some statistics of the honor killings among the different religions. If there are no statistics available, I am sure you can show us articles about honor killings committed by the different religions in this world.

Actually, I didn't say they are "very common" in the non Muslim world. I said they are not unique to the Muslim world nor are they common to the entire Muslim world (as I've said over and over and over). I've already posted references to where honor killings have been committed in India, among Hindus and Sikhs as well as Muslims. I posted a link where a Christian man in a Middle Eastern country also committed an honor killing. I'm not going to repeat it.

Let face it, Coyote, you want to give a pass to the many honor killings committed by Muslims by trying to bring up other groups where you don't find the prevalence of honor killings like one does in the Muslim community. Since you are so into the subject of honor killings, I suggest that you contact Professor Phyllis Chesler on her Facebook page. Since she has been studying this subject for a long time, you can tell her your thoughts and she will tell you hers. This way you can get to the nitty gritty of the subject of honor killings.

 

[Coyote]

Let face it, Coyote, you want to give a pass to the many honor killings committed by Muslims by trying to bring up other groups where you don't find the prevalence of honor killings like one does in the Muslim community.

Kind of like you give a free pass to those non-Muslim groups that engage in honor killings?

I prefer to view the big picture.

The prevalence of honor killing (and disfigurement and assault) are high in India. I choose not to ignore that.

I also choose not to ignore the fact that the most populous Muslim country in the world rarely has honor killings or the fact that other religions within those ME Muslim countries engage in honor killings. Such messy facts - they complicate things don't they?

Since you are so into the subject of honor killings, I suggest that you contact Professor Phyllis Chesler on her Facebook page. Since she has been studying this subject for a long time, you can tell her your thoughts and she will tell you hers. This way you can get to the nitty gritty of the subject of honor killings.

Your suggestion is noted and discarded. Her article was an excellent read, but there are many people who have studied honor killings and are considered expert and material is freely available on the internet. Why limit yourself to only ONE person's opinion?

 

[Hossfly]

Let face it, Coyote, you want to give a pass to the many honor killings committed by Muslims by trying to bring up other groups where you don't find the prevalence of honor killings like one does in the Muslim community.

Kind of like you give a free pass to those non-Muslim groups that engage in honor killings?

I prefer to view the big picture.

The prevalence of honor killing (and disfigurement and assault) are high in India. I choose not to ignore that.

I also choose not to ignore the fact that the most populous Muslim country in the world rarely has honor killings or the fact that other religions within those ME Muslim countries engage in honor killings. Such messy facts - they complicate things don't they?

Since you are so into the subject of honor killings, I suggest that you contact Professor Phyllis Chesler on her Facebook page. Since she has been studying this subject for a long time, you can tell her your thoughts and she will tell you hers. This way you can get to the nitty gritty of the subject of honor killings.

Your suggestion is noted and discarded. Her article was an excellent read, but there are many people who have studied honor killings and are considered expert and material is freely available on the internet. Why limit yourself to only ONE person's opinion?

Why, Coyote, since you seem to be the expert here on honor killings, I would think you would enjoy the chance of debating this professor who has studied the violence against women (including honor killings) for a very long time. Why pass up a good opportunity in having a debate with someone on a subject in which you are apparently interested. As for taking one person's opinion, maybe some of the viewers should just discard yours as others can discard my opinion. Isn't that great that the viewers have the prerogative to discard anyone's opinion?

 

[Coyote]

Let face it, Coyote, you want to give a pass to the many honor killings committed by Muslims by trying to bring up other groups where you don't find the prevalence of honor killings like one does in the Muslim community.

Kind of like you give a free pass to those non-Muslim groups that engage in honor killings?

I prefer to view the big picture.

The prevalence of honor killing (and disfigurement and assault) are high in India. I choose not to ignore that.

I also choose not to ignore the fact that the most populous Muslim country in the world rarely has honor killings or the fact that other religions within those ME Muslim countries engage in honor killings. Such messy facts - they complicate things don't they?

Since you are so into the subject of honor killings, I suggest that you contact Professor Phyllis Chesler on her Facebook page. Since she has been studying this subject for a long time, you can tell her your thoughts and she will tell you hers. This way you can get to the nitty gritty of the subject of honor killings.

Your suggestion is noted and discarded. Her article was an excellent read, but there are many people who have studied honor killings and are considered expert and material is freely available on the internet. Why limit yourself to only ONE person's opinion?

Why, Coyote, since you seem to be the expert here on honor killings, I would think you would enjoy the chance of debating this professor who has studied the violence against women (including honor killings) for a very long time.

Well Hoss....where have I ever claimed or implied that I am an "expert" on honor killings? I merely stated that there are multiple sources of information, from experts, freely available on the web and I avail myselves of them. Isn't it better not to put your all your eggs in one expert?

Why pass up a good opportunity in having a debate with someone on a subject in which you are apparently interested.

hmmm....interesting idea. Why don't you try it and let me know how it goes?

As for taking one person's opinion, maybe some of the viewers should just discard yours as others can discard my opinion. Isn't that great that the viewers have the prerogative to discard anyone's opinion?

Absolutely - in fact, why do you feel the need to state the obvious? On this we can agree.

Her concluding paragraph makes some very interesting points:

While it is alarming that there are so many honor killings in India and Pakistan, there may yet be cause for hope. Every honor killing begins with a rebellion against tribalism and patriarchy—or with a fear that tribal and patriarchal values are under attack. Many of the victims in our study were people who believed that they could push traditional boundaries, that they could get away with asserting their rights. They were wrong, and they paid the ultimate price for that mistake, but the key is that they tried. More rebels will follow.

 

[freedombecki]

It's a shame you can't see the problem beyond the lense of Islam or the irony of labeling non-Muslim killings usually the act of a "deranged mind" and implying that those honor killings done by Muslims are not.

Unlike you, Hoss - I do not see it as a Muslim problem but a serious problem of violence against women that spans cultures and religions and unlike YOU - I don't care what religion fosters the violence towards innocent women - I only care that it be addressed. If you call it a "free-pass", then what, pray tell do you call your general indifference (or perhaps it's a free pass) to non-Islamic violence towards women?

Coyote, his concern is mine: honor killings are required in some sects of Islam.

What sects of Islam "require" it and where is it written?



Honor killings are not part of Sharia.



Sort of but not totally true.

Religious preferences have been used in voluntarily settling disputes related to marriage, inheritance, divorce and certain types of contracts and not just Islam. The thing is - it never trumps US or State law so it's not making "one set of laws" or some and another for others - or at least not any more than voluntarily agreeing using Catholic moderators to settle marital disputes in a form of "binding arbritation" rather than a divorce court.

It's can also used in determining disputes over contracts (like marriage or divorce or inheritance) that originated outside the US if the country it originated in used Sharia.

Sharia is not this big bogeyman people want to make it out to be - it's pretty diverse in the manner in which it's interpreted and much of it involves civil matters - from handling money and contracts, divorce, marriage, inheritance etc. It's not all or even mostly chopping off hands and stoning adulterers and homosexuals (which, by the way is Biblical law as well).

When that unequal circumstances changes back, it will favor Islam, and womens', progress here is no more. Did you read the International headlines this morning? Pakistan removed their womens' voting due to Islamic law.

Pakistan is not the US and, like I said - if Christians (like the Dominionists) haven't been able to force their brand of religious law on us in 200 years why on earth do people think Muslims could?

The writing is on the wall should we ever, ever let our guard down and accept different laws for different people rather than the Constitution.

We've used different laws for different people voluntarily for centuries with no issue, in the civil code - the Amish, Jews, Catholics, Muslims and assorted other sects have made use of religious courts or law, in civil matters where both parties are willing. Criminal law is a different matter.

Sorry, but I've looked at Europe. When the % gets up to 20%, things change. Demands are made and never withdrawn. Homicide bombings start if demands aren't met. It's messy. And it all started with a sob story about of all things, other Muslims.

Don't be naïve. If you are, you lose, and if you have them, your children and progeny will lose their own family roots on account of this planned takeover of the world. Those who do not acquiesce pay the price.

It happened already in Germany in the 1930s. Fast-talking Haj Amin al-Husseini talked Hitler into hustling more Jews through the poisoned shower centers to eliminate all Europe's jews in less time than the war was to have taken. Here's a link that verifies Hitler's contentment with simply deporting Jews before he met al-Husseini: Amin Al Husseini: Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood

"Murder them all" ~ Haj Amin al-Husseini Nov. 29, 1947 ~ conflict_2

Here is a macabre catalogue of holocaust death pictures, which the Germans kept in files and now exists online: holocaust pictures of dead bodies - Bing Images

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in WWII: "Kill them all."

 

[Hossfly]

You're supposed to be a lawyer, Sherri.Then surely you get these updates from "The Jurist". They seem to differ from your "opinion", Perry Mason.


JURIST - Dateline

What say you Sherri?

THEY support what I have been saying, honor killings are not unlawful.
THE article does not say honor killings are lawful. A few other points are made, the laws that apply in Palestinian Territories are Jordanian laws, carried over from the time when Jordan occupied the lands. All the so called Palestinian legislation is draft laws, which do not make honor killings lawful either.

I have posted this before but it's still a good read.


Abbas aide: No plans to outlaw 'honor killing' | Maan News Agency

If they don't plan to outlaw the killings then the killings are lawful, wouldn't you say, Perry Mason?

 

[Coyote]

Coyote, his concern is mine: honor killings are required in some sects of Islam.

What sects of Islam "require" it and where is it written?



Honor killings are not part of Sharia.



Sort of but not totally true.

Religious preferences have been used in voluntarily settling disputes related to marriage, inheritance, divorce and certain types of contracts and not just Islam. The thing is - it never trumps US or State law so it's not making "one set of laws" or some and another for others - or at least not any more than voluntarily agreeing using Catholic moderators to settle marital disputes in a form of "binding arbritation" rather than a divorce court.

It's can also used in determining disputes over contracts (like marriage or divorce or inheritance) that originated outside the US if the country it originated in used Sharia.

Sharia is not this big bogeyman people want to make it out to be - it's pretty diverse in the manner in which it's interpreted and much of it involves civil matters - from handling money and contracts, divorce, marriage, inheritance etc. It's not all or even mostly chopping off hands and stoning adulterers and homosexuals (which, by the way is Biblical law as well).



Pakistan is not the US and, like I said - if Christians (like the Dominionists) haven't been able to force their brand of religious law on us in 200 years why on earth do people think Muslims could?

The writing is on the wall should we ever, ever let our guard down and accept different laws for different people rather than the Constitution.

We've used different laws for different people voluntarily for centuries with no issue, in the civil code - the Amish, Jews, Catholics, Muslims and assorted other sects have made use of religious courts or law, in civil matters where both parties are willing. Criminal law is a different matter.

Sorry, but I've looked at Europe. When the % gets up to 20%, things change. Demands are made and never withdrawn. Homicide bombings start if demands aren't met. It's messy. And it all started with a sob story about of all things, other Muslims.

Don't be naïve. If you are, you lose, and if you have them, your children and progeny will lose their own family roots on account of this planned takeover of the world. Those who do not acquiesce pay the price.

It happened already in Germany in the 1930s. Fast-talking Haj Amin al-Husseini talked Hitler into hustling more Jews through the poisoned shower centers to eliminate all Europe's jews in less time than the war was to have taken. Here's a link that verifies Hitler's contentment with simply deporting Jews before he met al-Husseini: Amin Al Husseini: Father of Jihad, Al Qaeda, Arafat, Saddam Hussein and the Muslim Brotherhood

"Murder them all" ~ Haj Amin al-Husseini Nov. 29, 1947 ~ conflict_2

Here is a macabre catalogue of holocaust death pictures, which the Germans kept in files and now exists online: holocaust pictures of dead bodies - Bing Images

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in WWII: "Kill them all."

[ame=http://youtu.be/-U1FyRdUves]Hitler Grand Mufti - Nazi & Islam KILL THE JEWS - YouTube[/ame]

I'm not naive. I'm looking at long-standing Muslim populations in western countries and I'm looking at the kind of rhetoric today that closely resembles the anti-semitic rhetoric of the 1930's - only it's directed at Muslims. The Nazi's were Christians. Did you know that? The Pope, at the time, was complicit. The Nazi's killed a lot of Jews. That is something worth remembering when you want to start saddling groups of people with generational guilt and hate.

One interesting article on Muslim integration that put to lie some of the stereotypes being promoted:

Studying Muslim integration in Europe | Dalia Mogahed | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

...However, the recent Gallup study paints a very different picture. While Muslims in three European countries are indeed highly religious and socially conservative, this neither leads to a sympathy for terrorist acts, a desire to isolate nor a lack of national loyalty....

 

[irosie91]

Coyote---here is a surprise for you----I actually agree that the 'FEAR OF SHARIAH"
in the USA is silly. If consenting muslim adults want to go to a shariah court for
their civil matters----fine with me----but your description of that system as benign
for people stuck with it-----ie muslims in shariah adherent countries and---non muslims
stuck with it-----even though it is VARIABLY imposed----is always bad---women
and non muslims are always in jeapordy at the very least----potentially. As for muslim
women in the USA----if the shariah courts do not adapt---it seems to me---over time
the women will force the issue.-----HOWEVER.... if shariah law is in any way
ENDORSED in the USA----keep in mind that some people will take that to mean
KORANIC LAW got a boost to the point of being acceptable. Right now the
KORANIC SCHOLARS of al azhar----have determined that ---for the sunnis of the
world-----killing hindus and jews is----LEGAL at least ---sorta. and rape---well---
that too. The arguement for apologists is "islamic law requires muslims to follow
the law of the land"----is just not good enough for me----for real reasons----events I
have seen in the USA

 

[Coyote]

Coyote---here is a surprise for you----I actually agree that the 'FEAR OF SHARIAH"
in the USA is silly. If consenting muslim adults want to go to a shariah court for
their civil matters----fine with me----but your description of that system as benign
for people stuck with it-----ie muslims in shariah adherent countries and---non muslims
stuck with it-----even though it is VARIABLY imposed----is always bad---women
and non muslims are always in jeapordy at the very least----potentially. As for muslim
women in the USA----if the shariah courts do not adapt---it seems to me---over time
the women will force the issue.-----HOWEVER.... if shariah law is in any way
ENDORSED in the USA----keep in mind that some people will take that to mean
KORANIC LAW got a boost to the point of being acceptable. Right now the
KORANIC SCHOLARS of al azhar----have determined that ---for the sunnis of the
world-----killing hindus and jews is----LEGAL at least ---sorta. and rape---well---
that too. The arguement for apologists is "islamic law requires muslims to follow
the law of the land"----is just not good enough for me----for real reasons----events I
have seen in the USA

Actually, Rosie, I don't think it is benign necessarily. Personally, I'm for 100% secular law and 100% seperation of church and state. Some Muslim countries only use Sharia for civil law (which is pretty much benign) but criminal law is under a different code. Other countries use Sharia - to varying degrees, with varying levels of interpetration in criminal codes. Some countries have laws on the books, like our "blue laws" that are hold overs and no longer enforced while some strictly enforce even blasphemy laws.

As far as killing Jews and Hindus being "legal" - that's highly debatable and I don't know of any country where it is not treated as murder. Rape - in many of those countries and in many non-muslim countries is still treated as the woman's fault and shame and seldom fully prosecuted.

 

[Hossfly]

Kind of like you give a free pass to those non-Muslim groups that engage in honor killings?

I prefer to view the big picture.

The prevalence of honor killing (and disfigurement and assault) are high in India. I choose not to ignore that.

I also choose not to ignore the fact that the most populous Muslim country in the world rarely has honor killings or the fact that other religions within those ME Muslim countries engage in honor killings. Such messy facts - they complicate things don't they?



Your suggestion is noted and discarded. Her article was an excellent read, but there are many people who have studied honor killings and are considered expert and material is freely available on the internet. Why limit yourself to only ONE person's opinion?

Why, Coyote, since you seem to be the expert here on honor killings, I would think you would enjoy the chance of debating this professor who has studied the violence against women (including honor killings) for a very long time.

Well Hoss....where have I ever claimed or implied that I am an "expert" on honor killings? I merely stated that there are multiple sources of information, from experts, freely available on the web and I avail myselves of them. Isn't it better not to put your all your eggs in one expert?

Why pass up a good opportunity in having a debate with someone on a subject in which you are apparently interested.

hmmm....interesting idea. Why don't you try it and let me know how it goes?

As for taking one person's opinion, maybe some of the viewers should just discard yours as others can discard my opinion. Isn't that great that the viewers have the prerogative to discard anyone's opinion?

Absolutely - in fact, why do you feel the need to state the obvious? On this we can agree.

Her concluding paragraph makes some very interesting points:

While it is alarming that there are so many honor killings in India and Pakistan, there may yet be cause for hope. Every honor killing begins with a rebellion against tribalism and patriarchy—or with a fear that tribal and patriarchal values are under attack. Many of the victims in our study were people who believed that they could push traditional boundaries, that they could get away with asserting their rights. They were wrong, and they paid the ultimate price for that mistake, but the key is that they tried. More rebels will follow.

Yes, she appears to be a very intelligent woman who has studied the issue regarding violence against woman. I thought a person like you, being a woman, would enjoy a give and take with her since you seem to have different views of honor killings prevalent in the Muslim community, whether it is tribal or not. It seems strange that a young woman would be murdered by her family if she looks at a man not of that family even in places like Europe. Do they bring their tribal customs to Europe? By the way, why not ask her what she thinks about the female circumcision in Muslim society. I read articles that even in the U.S., they are doing this

 

[Coyote]

Why, Coyote, since you seem to be the expert here on honor killings, I would think you would enjoy the chance of debating this professor who has studied the violence against women (including honor killings) for a very long time.

Well Hoss....where have I ever claimed or implied that I am an "expert" on honor killings? I merely stated that there are multiple sources of information, from experts, freely available on the web and I avail myselves of them. Isn't it better not to put your all your eggs in one expert?



hmmm....interesting idea. Why don't you try it and let me know how it goes?

As for taking one person's opinion, maybe some of the viewers should just discard yours as others can discard my opinion. Isn't that great that the viewers have the prerogative to discard anyone's opinion?

Absolutely - in fact, why do you feel the need to state the obvious? On this we can agree.

Her concluding paragraph makes some very interesting points:

While it is alarming that there are so many honor killings in India and Pakistan, there may yet be cause for hope. Every honor killing begins with a rebellion against tribalism and patriarchy—or with a fear that tribal and patriarchal values are under attack. Many of the victims in our study were people who believed that they could push traditional boundaries, that they could get away with asserting their rights. They were wrong, and they paid the ultimate price for that mistake, but the key is that they tried. More rebels will follow.

Yes, she appears to be a very intelligent woman who has studied the issue regarding violence against woman.

Yes. One of many

I thought a person like you, being a woman, would enjoy a give and take with her since you seem to have different views of honor killings prevalent in the Muslim community, whether it is tribal or not.

No you didn't

It seems strange that a young woman would be murdered by her family if she looks at a man not of that family even in places like Europe.

Why does it seem strange? Immigrants often bring certain customs with them. The fact that it is still RARE among immigrants is testimony that that is one of the customs not often brought along.

Do they bring their tribal customs to Europe?
By the way, why not ask her what she thinks about the female circumcision in Muslim society. I read articles that even in the U.S., they are doing this

I wonder why honor killings are so rare in the most populous Muslim nation in the world?

I wonder why ME and Pakistani Christians, Druze and other minorities practice honor killings too?

I wonder why female mutilation occurs in Christian African countries?

I wonder why female mutilation is rare in western muslims?

Go figure.

Big mysteries here my friend

 

[irosie91]

Why does it seem strange? Immigrants often bring certain customs with them. The fact that it is still RARE among immigrants is testimony that that is one of the customs not often brought along.

.......in view of the way hormones run----it seems strange to me that in ANY
culture a girl will be killed for looking at a boy----even if doing so is
very much ----condemned in the culture. I get my information about muslims
of the indian subcontinent from muslims of the indian subcontinent----in fact
the first muslim I know as a kid was pakistani----he assured me that his
sister could never take a walk with a boy----whilst the two of use were walking
together----we were both 14 and simply both doing a volunteer thing at the same
place I was horrified----It never occured to me that the little stroll was a
"boy/girl thing"-----I grew up----other pakistanis I knew told me that as children--
if a brother's friend came to the house for a visit---the girls of the family VANISHED
to the backrooms -----however---I also learned from HINDU friends---that girls
were afforded separate facilities everywhere----from park benches to train cars
in India------MINGLING OF THE SEXES there is simply "NOT DONE"---on the other
hand-----I also learned from Hindu friends. indian literature (short stories by hindus)
and BOLLYWOOD that surreptitious glances are prized by hindus. From
hindus in the USA----I learned---its the boys who are timid----not the girls and
the girls so not seem COMPELLED to VANISH

Do they bring their tribal customs to Europe?
By the way, why not ask her what she thinks about the female circumcision in Muslim society. I read articles that even in the U.S., they are doing this

I wonder why honor killings are so rare in the most populous Muslim nation in the world?

Easy---because it used to be buddhist/hindu----it is rare in Iran too because
it never really got over its distaste for arabs. It is even far more rare in Pakistan
then in north african muslim countries ----hindus did not do it

I wonder why ME and Pakistani Christians, Druze and other minorities practice honor killings too?

Very rarely----but local custom ----of those in MAJORITY always have an
effect on minorities ---

I wonder why female mutilation occurs in Christian African countries?

It was there before islam got there-----migrated from Egypt---Egypt
had very close trade relations with subsaharan blacks

I wonder why female mutilation is rare in western muslims?

Its illegal

Go figure.

Big mysteries here my friend