Tolerance? Not for Christians...

[Sky Dancer]

No one is asking Keeton to change her beliefs. She wants to believe in her God and think that LGBT people are sinners? Fine, that’s her constitutional right. However she wants to be a school counselor, and EVERY reputable psychological association has agreed that counselors/therapists will pose grave harm to any person by trying to “convert” them to a different sexual orientation than they were born with.

Ms Keeton is a Christian and born heterosexual. How would she feel if a person in authority tried to force her to be homosexual? I’m guessing not good. Turn the situation around and realize that no matter what Keeton's personal beliefs are, she cannot force them on others. That's the issue here. That's why she is asked to go through diversity training.

 

[Kalam]

Oh... wow. German Jews circa 1940 had it easy compared to these persecuted Christians in Christian-majority America.

 

[mudwhistle]

The honest thing, The Light, is to admit you want the school to redesign its cirriculum. What attracts you to this lady's cause is that she shares a belief with you -- homophobia -- and claims a similar basis for it -- christianity. You wouldn't give two hoots about her "freedom of religion" if she didn't.

Homophobia isn't exclusive to Christianity...but to human nature.

Wonder how many Libs would hate it if their kid decided to start a homosexual relationship rather then raise a family.....one where they were the actual parents rather then adopt.

1. You ever hear of sperm donors or surrogate mothers?
2. What the hell does this have to do with the topic? You think if we start to feel uneasy about homosexuality we'll all of a sudden feel it's OK for someone to demand they get to violate ethics clauses for a field they signed up for?

It's disgusting that you can't argue on facts and are trying to just make everyone dislike homosexuals.

I heard of it...which is why I mentioned something about it. I'm not living under a rock unlike you may think.

Most parents would like kids in the family that are more blood relation. That's why some folks tend to discourage homosexual relationships. It's not always homophobia.

Was a time that marriages were all arranged so that the right bloodlines were kept in the family.

Sorry about your disgust....that's on you. I merely stated the reason some families have a problem with it......not just because they're Christians.

I have a sister that is gay.....I don't give her a hard time about it. However she refuses to talk about it when the subject comes up....even when it's in a sympathetic manner.

I don't have a stance on it ether way.

 

[SmarterThanHick]

Please provide evidence of her personal beliefs negatively affecting anyone, or evidence that they affected her performance and how.

You won't. I've been asking for that evidence since the creation of this thread. And for all that loons keep squawking "it's about her PERFORMANCE" and "it's about the NEGATIVE IMPACT she has had" and insisting it has nothing to do with her faith, not ONE person has provided any evidence of that negative impact or any performance impairment. It comes down to the bigoted belief that because she's a CHRISTIAN she must be required to recant her faith, or be denied her degree.

This is the reason she was dismissed. Do you not realize that? She is incapable of speaking with an LGBT person, regardless of whether the issue at hand has anything to do with LGBT topics. Let me dumb this down for you further:

A COUNSELOR is unable to COUNSEL a specific group of people.

PS...and while you're at it, please PROVE that homosexuality is anything other than a choice.

You won't because it has never been proven.

You can neither prove nor disprove that statement. REGARDLESS, it has nothing to do with this case. She is a counselor. She needs to be able to COUNSEL people, not judge and dismiss people. What if she was unable to counsel any criminals? Or anyone with mental problems? What if she discriminated based on her client's skin color?

If she is unable to perform her duties and meet her requirements, regardless of whether her clients exhibit traits you believe are CHOICES or otherwise, she does not deserve to graduate.

Again, standards don't write themselves and are not set in stone since the beginning of time. So don't use that PATHETIC excuse.

...about as much as those with the teachers viewpoint need to go to Gay College.

Gay college? Where would that be located, you ignorant hick? What do they teach there?

Standards do not write themselves. They are determined by ethical committees and accreditation objectives, set in place to create a bare minimum amount of care and capability which must be met. She knew what program she was in. She can go off and call herself a life coach, and mentor, or even call herself a counselor still, but she can NOT be accredited if she cannot meet these standards.

No one should be expelled for their religious beliefs. This is stupid. If she can't do the work, flunk her. Don't expel her because you don't think her beliefs match with yours.

Wonder what would happen if she had been Muslim?

No one is being expelled for their religious beliefs. She is being expelled because she cannot meet basic requirements, and is incapable of speaking with clients if she suspects they are gay, even if the topic of conversation has nothing to do with the client's sexuality.

She is discriminating based on sexuality. As such, she is being removed from the program. Similarly, when a person gets sued for racial discrimination, they themselves are not being discriminated against for their beliefs. They're getting sued for being bigot.

No, the teacher needs to keep his anti-Christian bigotry out of the class room.

This has nothing to do with Christianity. The ONLY person who has made this an issue of Christianity is the student herself. This has to do with failing to pass course requirements. If she similarly refused to attend written exams, or refused to pay tuition, regardless of whether it was her religious belief or not, she would similarly be excused from the program.

 

[jillian]

Homophobia isn't exclusive to Christianity...but to human nature.

Wonder how many Libs would hate it if their kid decided to start a homosexual relationship rather then raise a family.....one where they were the actual parents rather then adopt.

no one 'decides' to be gay, hon. same as you could never bring yourself to have a relationship with someone of the same sex, they simply aren''t attracted to people of the opposite sex. i have one friend who swore he tried really hard to be straight... all through college. it just wasn't there for him.

as to your question about 'libs'... although i think that characterization is silly in this context, since a true conservative wouldn't care about someone else's business... i think everyone would like their kids' lives to be easier. it is easier to be straight than to be gay same as it is easier to be rich than poor. but things don't always play out that way, which is when love and tolerance come in.

 

[Father Time]

"one where they were the actual parents rather then adopt."

I assumed this sentence meant the only options were old-fashioned kid making or adopt, with those donors one of them would be the actual parent the other wouldn't.

And I must've misjudged your intent for the rest of your post. Sorry.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The OP should read: Tolerance? Not for intolerance.

 

[THE LIGHT]

Gay college? Where would that be located, you ignorant hick? What do they teach there?

Whatever their perverted minds wish. Possibly evolution and gay awareness. There is nothing gay about homsexuality though as it is a life shortening life style.

Standards do not write themselves. They are determined by ethical committees and accreditation objectives, set in place to create a bare minimum amount of care and capability which must be met. She knew what program she was in. She can go off and call herself a life coach, and mentor, or even call herself a counselor still, but she can NOT be accredited if she cannot meet these standards.

And Gay's can go off and find something else to call their get togethers other than marraige now can't they?

Why is it that you folks kick and scrap when the standards don't go your way and the play like the standards are set in stone when they don't?

 

[THE LIGHT]

It's not anti-Christian to demand that someone adhere to a code of ethics nor is the code of ethics anti-Christian. Why can't you be honest about this?

Oh I am perfectly honest about this. You are the one that is being dishonest.

The honest thing, The Light, is to admit you want the school to redesign its cirriculum. What attracts you to this lady's cause is that she shares a belief with you -- homophobia -- and claims a similar basis for it -- christianity. You wouldn't give two hoots about her "freedom of religion" if she didn't.

You know that is a lie.

The HONEST thing, Madeline, is to admit you hate Christians and you will do anything in your power to silence them, but instead you choose to go about silencing them via stealth by using a message of tolerance while employing any chance you can to bash them.

Your Christianphobia has you so rabid that you can fight for Muslims to place a mosque next to the site where they murdered thousands of people and destroyed thousands upon thousands of families, yet you bash a innocent girl who has no intentions to harm anyone.

 

[Madeline]

Funny you should mention the Ground Zero mosque controversy. Once again, your position regarding it is telling: accomodation of those who agree with you. Apparently, "freedom of religion" has no weight with you unless the religion in question is yours.

 

[Hister]

That's a typo, the constitution is supposed to read "freedom FROM religion".

 

[Newby]

The school is following the guidelines of the APA and ACA. All students must follow these standards. Ms Keeton is no exception.

The issue is not about the right of religious students to hold whatever beliefs they have, but over the right of a professional degree program to enforce requirements that are rooted in a sense of the field's needs and a commitment to equity.

This is about behaviors that are appropriate or not appropriate within counseling. The university's policies are consistent with the ethics code of the American Counseling Association. The university's counseling programs couldn't keep its accreditation while ignoring the code.

Keeton knew the university's curricular goal of teaching students to counsel without imposing their personal values on their clients by setting up boundaries so as not to be judgmental.

But she is finding it more...er...satisfying to play the martyr now.

She never said she'd impose her personal values on clients. There's no indication she would, any more than a Hindu would or a Muslim would or a Buddhist would. She shared her beliefs, and in this day and age Christians have to be very careful about doing that.

Exactly Allie.

Here's a quote from one of Sky's post a few pages back of something that Keeten said.

In the quote she is saying that they want her to AFFIRM their decisions that she would find immoral or unethical. Why is she allowed to affirm them but not say anything negative about them? Isn't a counselor, who agrees that there's nothing wrong with homosexuality, affirming to one of them that they're decision is just fine imposing their personal beliefs on them just the same as one who would not affirm that decision. Their personal beliefs just happen to fall in line with 'official' policy and the other does not. I still don't understand why that affirmation would be needed in the first place since it's been stated that the 'official' policy is that it's not a disorder of any kind to begin with?

Another quote from one of Sky's posts.

The school is following the guidelines of the APA and ACA. All students must follow these standards. Ms Keeton is no exception.

The issue is not about the right of religious students to hold whatever beliefs they have, but over the right of a professional degree program to enforce requirements that are rooted in a sense of the field's needs and a commitment to equity.

This is about behaviors that are appropriate or not appropriate within counseling. The university's policies are consistent with the ethics code of the American Counseling Association. The university's counseling programs couldn't keep its accreditation while ignoring the code.

Keeton knew the university's curricular goal of teaching students to counsel without imposing their personal values on their clients by setting up boundaries so as not to be judgmental.

“[Y]ou are requiring me to alter my objective beliefs and also to commit now that if I ever may have a client who wants me to affirm their decision to have an abortion or engage in gay, lesbian, or transgender behavior, I will do that. I can’t alter my biblical beliefs, and I will not affirm the morality of those behaviors in a counseling situation.”

She's never said she would be judgmental, according the quote supposedly made by her, she said she couldn't affirm their decisions with regards to homosexuality or abortion. Is that what counseling is? Just sitting there and affirming everything the person says without any judgment being made? How scary is that if that's truly what goes on? I guess if some guy goes in and feels a tendancy to kill young blonde women, the councelor shouldn't 'judge' him and just 'affirm' his feelings about wanting to kill people? The whole premise that 'affirmation' and being 'non-judgmental' is at the root of counseling is ridiculous to begin with.

 

[Newby]

The school is following the guidelines of the APA and ACA. All students must follow these standards. Ms Keeton is no exception.

The issue is not about the right of religious students to hold whatever beliefs they have, but over the right of a professional degree program to enforce requirements that are rooted in a sense of the field's needs and a commitment to equity.

This is about behaviors that are appropriate or not appropriate within counseling. The university's policies are consistent with the ethics code of the American Counseling Association. The university's counseling programs couldn't keep its accreditation while ignoring the code.

Keeton knew the university's curricular goal of teaching students to counsel without imposing their personal values on their clients by setting up boundaries so as not to be judgmental.

In case you do not understand the school is not the APA.

And I highly doubt that the written curriculum for the school stated anything at all about having to discard one's faith prior to graduation nor I am sure did it state anything at all about not imposing one's personal values on their client by setting up boundaries so as not to be judgmental. Although, anyone that wanted to be a counselor would know that is inappropriate and would not attempt to do so.

I hate to say it, but the fact is that despite you and Coyote insisting repeatedly throughout these threads, there is not a shred of evidence that Ms. Keeton would not provide very professional counseling to anyone.

You two can continue to insist that this is the case, but you have not proven it to be so.

She has no business openly espousing her Christian values in a counseling session with a gay or lesbian client.

She want's to proselytize in a counseling session. People don't go to counseling sessions to be converted to Christianity.

She never said she would espouse her faith upon others.

Again, you can keep repeating this inaccurate statement that she plans on proselytizing but the only people you will convince are people that have not and will not read the articles.

Immie

The counseling program abides by both the ACA and the APA guidelines. Ms Keeton's own words tell the true story.

She said she could not affirm a gay or lesbian's lifestyle. A client does not go to see a counselor to be condemned as wrong for who he or she happens to love.

Perhaps she would neither affirm, nor condemn. As a professional, according to evidence you have posted, the APA does not consider it a disorder, therefore she would not be required to 'treat' it at all. It's a moot point. Neither has she ever said she would push her views or opinions on anyone while counseling, that's something that's been made up throughout this entire thread and is based on dishonesty. At least be honest and admit that you are making assumptions about what she would or would not do, because that's exactly what you are doing.

 

[Newby]

The counseling program abides by both the ACA and the APA guidelines. Ms Keeton's own words tell the true story.

She said she could not affirm a gay or lesbian's lifestyle. A client does not go to see a counselor to be condemned as wrong for who he or she happens to love.

WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE SHE WANTS TO PROSELYTIZE IN COUNSELING SESSIONS?

There is none. You are therefore lying.

She was asked to "approve" of homosexual lifestyle. Who else in that program has been required to do that? If nobody has, it's discrimination based upon her religion.

Read her own words.

"My Christian moral views are not just about me. I think the Bible’s teaching is true for all people, and it shows the right way
to live. I believe the Bible’s teaching applies to all people on who they are and how they should act, not just to
me. From that, I see that some behaviors are not moral or positive."

Her professor responds:

"What is the issue is if you believe your personal beliefs and values should be the same beliefs and values for all people. This is the
unethical part—applying your own personal beliefs and values on other people and not truly accepting that others can have different beliefs and values that are
equally valid as your own."


It is equally valid for a gay or lesbian person who feel they are as moral and positive as the next person.

Miss Keeton believes that other people should act in accordance with her moral values. That belief contradicts the principles contained in the American Counseling
Association and American School Counselor Association Code of Ethics.

Miss Keeton’s belief that others should follow biblical moral values is unethical: These statements indicate that she thinks certain people should act in accordance
with her moral values, and/or that her beliefs are in some way superior to those of others. The belief that she possesses a special knowledge about the way that
other people should live their lives, and that others need to adopt a similar set of values contradicts the core principles of the American Counseling Association
and American School Counselor Association Codes of Ethics, which define the roles and responsibilities of professional counselors.

You and the school are guilty of what I have bolded above, it's like the pot calling the kettle black in my opinion.

 

[Newby]

Exactly, and so what if she wants to proselytize. Does the client not have the ability to chose whether or not to come back? Besides, is not the teacher proselytizing his beliefs to the student?

Thanks for admitting that Keeton wants to proselytize. She can't in a school counseling position. It's against the ethics of the profession.

Thanks for admitting that you are okay with proselytizing as long as it isn't a Christian doing it.

That pretty much sums it up. They just don't see how hypocritical they're being.

 

[Newby]

Actually, Madeline, I think the LIGHT wants the US to become a Christian theocracy.

That's bullshit and completely dishonest. I would have expected better than that from you, very disappointing.

 

[Newby]

Oh... wow. German Jews circa 1940 had it easy compared to these persecuted Christians in Christian-majority America.

So, being in a majority makes it fair game for bashing?

 

[Newby]

Oh... wow. German Jews circa 1940 had it easy compared to these persecuted Christians in Christian-majority America.

And you 'thank' him Sky? Seriously? If living under his religion, you wouldn't even dare to admit that you're gay for fear of being killed, and yet you would 'thank' him for his posts? That's amazing that you would 'affirm' his beliefs, yet be dishonest about christian beliefs all because they 'affect you personally'. I guess you better hope that the lousy christians in this country keep defending the constitution that they wrote that gave you the freedoms that you have from the onslaught of muslim theocrasy that's taking place around the globe.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Oh... wow. German Jews circa 1940 had it easy compared to these persecuted Christians in Christian-majority America.

And you 'thank' him Sky? Seriously? If living under his religion, you wouldn't even dare to admit that you're gay for fear of being killed, and yet you would 'thank' him for his posts? That's amazing that you would 'affirm' his beliefs, yet be dishonest about christian beliefs all because they 'affect you personally'. I guess you better hope that the lousy christians in this country keep defending the constitution that they wrote that gave you the freedoms that you have from the onslaught of muslim theocrasy that's taking place around the globe.

You can't be an oppressed minority when you're the dominant majority. That's why I thanked Kalam's post. He made a good point.

 

[Newby]

Oh... wow. German Jews circa 1940 had it easy compared to these persecuted Christians in Christian-majority America.

And you 'thank' him Sky? Seriously? If living under his religion, you wouldn't even dare to admit that you're gay for fear of being killed, and yet you would 'thank' him for his posts? That's amazing that you would 'affirm' his beliefs, yet be dishonest about christian beliefs all because they 'affect you personally'. I guess you better hope that the lousy christians in this country keep defending the constitution that they wrote that gave you the freedoms that you have from the onslaught of muslim theocrasy that's taking place around the globe.

You can't be an oppressed minority when you're the dominant majority. That's why I thanked Kalam's post. He made a good point.

No one was saying anything about oppression, I think the word was discrimination, and it can happen to anyone.