Tolerance? Not for Christians...

[Sky Dancer]

No one here has a professional life? No one here can make the distinction between what you believe and do in your private life, compared to what you do in your professional life?

You folks don't want "tolerance for a different POV". What you want is for science to be uprooted from scientific pursuits to accomodate the irrational beliefs of religious types.

This school has no business graduating a student incompetent to counsel GLBT people and those affected by them. That is the bottom line.

No, the bottom line is that they expelled her because she's Christian and won't give up her beliefs. If she couldn't do the work or was "incompetent" as you say, they could have simply flunked her. Instead, they expelled her for being Christian. Isn't that against our freedom of religion? After all, this is a public school, not a private one.

They haven't expelled her yet.

The issue is that she insists on imposing her Christian morality on all others. Read her words.

 

[Sky Dancer]

So when did Miss Keaton harm her clients?

She didn't.

Has she even had any clients yet?

So what.

She won't have any thanks to her dishonest school.

She won't have any due to her own actions.

 

[mudwhistle]

Has she even had any clients yet?

So what.

She won't have any thanks to her dishonest school.

She won't have any due to her own actions.

More due to the actions of her school.


You just don't get it. You can't make any laws suppressing the right of free expression of religion. Any business she conducts has nothing to do with separation of church and state....something that doesn't even exist in the constitution.

 

[Sky Dancer]

No one should be expelled for their religious beliefs. This is stupid. If she can't do the work, flunk her. Don't expel her because you don't think her beliefs match with yours.

Wonder what would happen if she had been Muslim?

If Keeton had been Muslim and insisted she had the right to condemn gays and lesbians in a counseling session the same thing would have happened to her. She would still not be complying with professional standards of practice. Keeton wants to maintain her personal bias, that she attributes to Biblical doctrine, against homosexuals, and have the right to impose her dogmatic views on her unsuspecting future clients.

 

[Father Time]

So what.

She won't have any thanks to her dishonest school.

She won't have any due to her own actions.

More due to the actions of her school.


You just don't get it. You can't make any laws suppressing the right of free expression of religion.

You don't have the freedom to do so at work. If your boss wants to demand that you don't talk about religion while working for him/her then tough shit.

Any business she conducts has nothing to do with separation of church and state....

You're right it's about her refusing to follow the ethics of her chosen profession and her not being accredited for it then.

something that doesn't even exist in the constitution.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

 

[Sky Dancer]

So what.

She won't have any thanks to her dishonest school.

She won't have any due to her own actions.

More due to the actions of her school.


You just don't get it. You can't make any laws suppressing the right of free expression of religion. Any business she conducts has nothing to do with separation of church and state....something that doesn't even exist in the constitution.

You don't get it.

This is not a religous rights issue. It is an issue of a student thinking she is above the ethics of her profession and demanding that she get special consideration for it. All students graduating from a counseling program agree to comply with ethical standards. Ms Keeton does not.

The university has a right and duty to enforce compliance with professional ethics rules barring counselors from being intolerant or engaging in discrimination, and no reasonable person could conclude that a counseling program’s requirement that students comply with such rules conveys a message endorsing or disapproving of religion

 

[Sky Dancer]

She won't have any due to her own actions.

More due to the actions of her school.


You just don't get it. You can't make any laws suppressing the right of free expression of religion.

You don't have the freedom to do so at work. If your boss wants to demand that you don't talk about religion while working for him/her then tough shit.

Any business she conducts has nothing to do with separation of church and state....

You're right it's about her refusing to follow the ethics of her chosen profession and her not being accredited for it then.

something that doesn't even exist in the constitution.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

Keeton and the law firm would seek to establish religion in the counseling profession. Keeton clearly states that bibilical ethics trump professional standards.

It's not just homosexuality that Keeton has a problem with... she pretty much confirms the instructors' suspicions that she "will not" affirmatively and non-judgementally counsel students on ANY issue that is contrary to Biblical teachings.

In other words, Keeton admits that she will always put her own faith before the interests of the children who would be entrusted to her care.

 

[THE LIGHT]

Thanks for admitting that Keeton wants to proselytize. She can't in a school counseling position. It's against the ethics of the profession.

Thanks for admitting that you are okay with proselytizing as long as it isn't a Christian doing it.

Asking someone to adhere to the standards of the profession is not proselytizing.

So if the standards said everyone should be a Christian you would be okay with it? Something tells me that is a no.

Ms Keeton needs to keep the Bible out of her counseling sessions.

No, the teacher needs to keep his anti-Christian bigotry out of the class room.

 

[THE LIGHT]

No one should be expelled for their religious beliefs. This is stupid. If she can't do the work, flunk her. Don't expel her because you don't think her beliefs match with yours.

Wonder what would happen if she had been Muslim?

Depends. Some teachers are Religion-phobic while others are just anti-Christian in which all other religions get a pass while Christians get bullied around.

 

[Father Time]

Thanks for admitting that you are okay with proselytizing as long as it isn't a Christian doing it.

Asking someone to adhere to the standards of the profession is not proselytizing. Ms Keeton needs to keep the Bible out of her counseling sessions.

No, the teacher needs to keep his anti-Christian bigotry out of the class room.

It's not anti-Christian to demand that someone adhere to a code of ethics nor is the code of ethics anti-Christian. Why can't you be honest about this?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Miss Keeton has a right to her religious beliefs, the University does not have to cater to them by ignoring the standards of the profession which she claims to be in training for. She has chosen a school which teaches counseling from a clearly secular perspective and she knew that going in, if she wants a program which will accommodate her religious beliefs there are alternatives available to her.

If Jennifer Keeton is bound and determined to be a counselor, her best bet would be to seek work at a Christian counseling service. There are many out there. Then she would probably be free to quote Scripture to her patients, pray with her patients, whatever. But she shouldn’t come to a publicly-funded agency and expect to be free to say, “Well MY Bible says homosexuality is just wrong, wrong, wrong.” That simply wouldn’t be appropriate. Her First Amendment freedom of expression only goes so far in such an environment.

What if she was raciist instead of homophobic? If she honestly felt that black people were suffering from an inherent psychological or mental shortcoming? Would the university still be obligated to cater to her “principles” and would the public still be forced to fund her activities?

 

[THE LIGHT]

Asking someone to adhere to the standards of the profession is not proselytizing. Ms Keeton needs to keep the Bible out of her counseling sessions.

No, the teacher needs to keep his anti-Christian bigotry out of the class room.

It's not anti-Christian to demand that someone adhere to a code of ethics nor is the code of ethics anti-Christian. Why can't you be honest about this?

Oh I am perfectly honest about this. You are the one that is being dishonest.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Religion gives Ms Keeton, the license to hate anyone or any group of people she chooses. We are not a Christian theocracy in America. There are Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Satan worshippers, Wiccas, Buddhists, and a whole array of religions that Keeton will encounter if she decides to become a counselor in the United States. Keeton must adhere to the ethics of the profession she trains in. If she wants to only cater to those of her beliefs, she should become a counselor for her church. She shouldn't expect to work for an agency or school that follows APA and ACA guildelines.




The American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the National Association of Social Workers state:

"There is no scientific basis for distinguishing between same-sex couples and heterosexual couples with respect to the legal rights, obligations, benefits, and burdens conferred by civil marriage."
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/...er_Psychological_Assn_Amicus_Curiae_Brief.pdf

Thus, mental health professionals and researchers have long recognized that being homosexual poses no inherent obstacle to leading a happy, healthy, and productive life, and that the vast majority of gay and lesbian people function well in the full array of social institutions and interpersonal relationships.
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/...er_Psychological_Assn_Amicus_Curiae_Brief.pdf

The research and clinical literature demonstrate that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are normal and positive variations of human sexuality.
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf

The longstanding consensus of the behavioral and social sciences and the health and mental health professions is that homosexuality per se is a normal and positive variation of human sexual orientation.
http://www.apa.org/about/governance/council/policy/sexual-orientation.aspx

 

[Madeline]

No, the teacher needs to keep his anti-Christian bigotry out of the class room.

It's not anti-Christian to demand that someone adhere to a code of ethics nor is the code of ethics anti-Christian. Why can't you be honest about this?

Oh I am perfectly honest about this. You are the one that is being dishonest.

The honest thing, The Light, is to admit you want the school to redesign its cirriculum. What attracts you to this lady's cause is that she shares a belief with you -- homophobia -- and claims a similar basis for it -- christianity. You wouldn't give two hoots about her "freedom of religion" if she didn't.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Actually, Madeline, I think the LIGHT wants the US to become a Christian theocracy.

 

[mudwhistle]

Religion gives Ms Keeton, the license to hate anyone or any group of people she chooses. We are not a Christian theocracy in America. There are Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Satan worshippers, Wiccas, Buddhists, and a whole array of religions that Keeton will encounter if she decides to become a counselor in the United States. Keeton must adhere to the ethics of the profession she trains in. If she wants to only cater to those of her beliefs, she should become a counselor for her church. She shouldn't expect to work for an agency or school that follows APA and ACA guildelines.




The American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the National Association of Social Workers state:

"There is no scientific basis for distinguishing between same-sex couples and heterosexual couples with respect to the legal rights, obligations, benefits, and burdens conferred by civil marriage."
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/...er_Psychological_Assn_Amicus_Curiae_Brief.pdf

Thus, mental health professionals and researchers have long recognized that being homosexual poses no inherent obstacle to leading a happy, healthy, and productive life, and that the vast majority of gay and lesbian people function well in the full array of social institutions and interpersonal relationships.
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/...er_Psychological_Assn_Amicus_Curiae_Brief.pdf

The research and clinical literature demonstrate that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are normal and positive variations of human sexuality.
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf

The longstanding consensus of the behavioral and social sciences and the health and mental health professions is that homosexuality per se is a normal and positive variation of human sexual orientation.
Resolution on Appropriate Affirmative Responses to Sexual Orientation Distress and Change Efforts

Seems hating Christians is in play here....you included.

Jesus never taught anyone to be hateful....just the opposite.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Religion gives Ms Keeton, the license to hate anyone or any group of people she chooses. We are not a Christian theocracy in America. There are Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Satan worshippers, Wiccas, Buddhists, and a whole array of religions that Keeton will encounter if she decides to become a counselor in the United States. Keeton must adhere to the ethics of the profession she trains in. If she wants to only cater to those of her beliefs, she should become a counselor for her church. She shouldn't expect to work for an agency or school that follows APA and ACA guildelines.




The American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the National Association of Social Workers state:

"There is no scientific basis for distinguishing between same-sex couples and heterosexual couples with respect to the legal rights, obligations, benefits, and burdens conferred by civil marriage."
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/...er_Psychological_Assn_Amicus_Curiae_Brief.pdf

Thus, mental health professionals and researchers have long recognized that being homosexual poses no inherent obstacle to leading a happy, healthy, and productive life, and that the vast majority of gay and lesbian people function well in the full array of social institutions and interpersonal relationships.
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/courts/...er_Psychological_Assn_Amicus_Curiae_Brief.pdf

The research and clinical literature demonstrate that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are normal and positive variations of human sexuality.
http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/therapeutic-response.pdf

The longstanding consensus of the behavioral and social sciences and the health and mental health professions is that homosexuality per se is a normal and positive variation of human sexual orientation.
Resolution on Appropriate Affirmative Responses to Sexual Orientation Distress and Change Efforts

Seems hating Christians is in play here....you included.

Jesus never taught anyone to be hateful....just the opposite.

Nonsense. This is about the standards of the counseling profession and counseling education program, and whether those who train in the counseling field, including Christians, are required to comply with professional ethics.

 

[mudwhistle]

It's not anti-Christian to demand that someone adhere to a code of ethics nor is the code of ethics anti-Christian. Why can't you be honest about this?

Oh I am perfectly honest about this. You are the one that is being dishonest.

The honest thing, The Light, is to admit you want the school to redesign its cirriculum. What attracts you to this lady's cause is that she shares a belief with you -- homophobia -- and claims a similar basis for it -- christianity. You wouldn't give two hoots about her "freedom of religion" if she didn't.

Homophobia isn't exclusive to Christianity...but to human nature.

Wonder how many Libs would hate it if their kid decided to start a homosexual relationship rather then raise a family.....one where they were the actual parents rather then adopt.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I doubt Ms Keeton is the only Christian at Augusta State. The code of ethics for counselors requires that they cannot insist on their moral code in preference to that of the clients they are helping. If she is unwilling to abide by that code, she should not be approved. Her private beliefs are sacrosanct, but they cease to be private if they affect how she deals with clients. If Keeton is unable to counsel clients or students who she believes live sinful lifestyles, she might have to reconsider whether or not she's cut out to be a secular counselor. I think she ought to transfer to a religious college and seek employment in religiously based schools.

 

[Father Time]

Oh I am perfectly honest about this. You are the one that is being dishonest.

The honest thing, The Light, is to admit you want the school to redesign its cirriculum. What attracts you to this lady's cause is that she shares a belief with you -- homophobia -- and claims a similar basis for it -- christianity. You wouldn't give two hoots about her "freedom of religion" if she didn't.

Homophobia isn't exclusive to Christianity...but to human nature.

Wonder how many Libs would hate it if their kid decided to start a homosexual relationship rather then raise a family.....one where they were the actual parents rather then adopt.

1. You ever hear of sperm donors or surrogate mothers?
2. What the hell does this have to do with the topic? You think if we start to feel uneasy about homosexuality we'll all of a sudden feel it's OK for someone to demand they get to violate ethics clauses for a field they signed up for?

It's disgusting that you can't argue on facts and are trying to just make everyone dislike homosexuals.