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Since when are counselors required to cite their support any choice a client makes? That is not something that is required of any counselor. They are requiring it of THIS student because she's a Christian and made the horrific mistake of openly espousing Christian values.Great posts by people you agree with. I thought we were having a discussion and all sides would be considered. I have knocked myself out posting ACA and APA guidelines and information about how to counsel gays and lesbians. Clearly, Ms Keeton is unwilling to meet the ethics of the counseling profession.
However, up until the post that I am now quoting, you have not yet shown a hairs breadth of evidence that Ms. Keeton would violate any of those guidelines. You keep claiming that she would and that she has said she would, but none of the articles about this case have actually said that.
I am beginning to think that you guys think she is a liar for no other reason than that she is a Christian.
Immie
But SkyDancer did post that - in Keeton's own words, she said: [Y]ou are requiring me to alter my objective beliefs and also to commit now that if I ever may have a client who wants me to affirm their decision to have an abortion or engage in gay, lesbian, or transgender behavior, I will do that. I cant alter my biblical beliefs, and I will not affirm the morality of those behaviors in a counseling situation.
Sky then posted the guidelines pertaining to it.
Does Keeton deny saying that?
Apparently, Keeton is the only one making some of these claims - they do not seem substantiated by her peers at school, or any of the school faculty or staff. It seems she is not being totally honest and it has nothing to do with her being Christian or not, but with the evidence presented thus far.
The school is following the guidelines of the APA and ACA. All students must follow these standards. Ms Keeton is no exception.
The issue is not about the right of religious students to hold whatever beliefs they have, but over the right of a professional degree program to enforce requirements that are rooted in a sense of the field's needs and a commitment to equity.
This is about behaviors that are appropriate or not appropriate within counseling. The university's policies are consistent with the ethics code of the American Counseling Association. The university's counseling programs couldn't keep its accreditation while ignoring the code.
Keeton knew the university's curricular goal of teaching students to counsel without imposing their personal values on their clients by setting up boundaries so as not to be judgmental.
But she is finding it more...er...satisfying to play the martyr now.
Keeton notes that the professors told her that they wanted her to change her view that her moral system was right for everybody. She was told that what they wanted her to do was change to a position that while her moral views may be fine for her, she should not expect others to conform to those views.
Frankly, I think Keeton is a pawn in the Alliance Defense Fund's game.
Here's a link to Keeton's complaint:
http://www.telladf.org/userdocs/KeetonComplaint.pdf
Here is Keeton's own words:
"I think the Bibles teaching is true for all people, and it shows the right way to live."
Here is her professors response:
" I do not expect you to change your personal beliefs and values. What is the issue is if you believe your personal beliefs and values should be the same beliefs and values for all people. This is the unethical partapplying your own personal beliefs and values on other people and not truly accepting that others can have different beliefs and values that are equally valid as your own."
Unless you can show that she has not passed the courses to date, then I would say she has met the qualifications, although, it seems apparent that the school will not let her graduate. I have a feeling that her chances of passing any future courses are slim to none. You can guarantee that those professors are not going to let her pass now.
The school needs to lose its accreditation now! Until it can prove that it will treat all students fairly.
Immie
The school is following the guidelines of the APA and ACA. All students must follow these standards. Ms Keeton is no exception.
The issue is not about the right of religious students to hold whatever beliefs they have, but over the right of a professional degree program to enforce requirements that are rooted in a sense of the field's needs and a commitment to equity.
This is about behaviors that are appropriate or not appropriate within counseling. The university's policies are consistent with the ethics code of the American Counseling Association. The university's counseling programs couldn't keep its accreditation while ignoring the code.
Keeton knew the university's curricular goal of teaching students to counsel without imposing their personal values on their clients by setting up boundaries so as not to be judgmental.
But she is finding it more...er...satisfying to play the martyr now.
The school is following the guidelines of the APA and ACA. All students must follow these standards. Ms Keeton is no exception.
The issue is not about the right of religious students to hold whatever beliefs they have, but over the right of a professional degree program to enforce requirements that are rooted in a sense of the field's needs and a commitment to equity.
This is about behaviors that are appropriate or not appropriate within counseling. The university's policies are consistent with the ethics code of the American Counseling Association. The university's counseling programs couldn't keep its accreditation while ignoring the code.
Keeton knew the university's curricular goal of teaching students to counsel without imposing their personal values on their clients by setting up boundaries so as not to be judgmental.
But she is finding it more...er...satisfying to play the martyr now.
She never said she'd impose her personal values on clients. There's no indication she would, any more than a Hindu would or a Muslim would or a Buddhist would. She shared her beliefs, and in this day and age Christians have to be very careful about doing that.
This stems from an ethical foundation regarding any type of patient interaction, including mental health fields such as counseling. This issue has nothing to do with Christianity, although it's apparent that people are trying to make it a freedom of religion issue. This has to do with the accuracy a health care provider offers to patients.
She is not being expelled because of her personal beliefs. She is being expelled because those personal beliefs are negatively affecting her performance and ability to be an effective unbiased mental health care provider. Freedom of religion does not grant a free pass to do anything that is desired. This is why you generally don't see too many employees of best buy try to convince you to upgrade to a larger TV as well as allow Jesus into your heart.
You can't just start practicing medicine because your own personal religious beliefs say so. A doctor cannot forgo known medical solutions to instead recommend prayer. A counselor can NOT impose their personal beliefs, religious or otherwise, onto a patient, ESPECIALLY if those beliefs are incorrect, unsubstantiated, and otherwise misleading. That is not the role of an accredited counselor. Self-titled "life coaches" can push their clients any way they deem fit, but counselors are meant to help reach solutions within the belief system of THEIR PATIENTS, not themselves.
PS...and while you're at it, please PROVE that homosexuality is anything other than a choice.
You won't because it has never been proven.
Since when are counselors required to cite their support any choice a client makes? That is not something that is required of any counselor. They are requiring it of THIS student because she's a Christian and made the horrific mistake of openly espousing Christian values.However, up until the post that I am now quoting, you have not yet shown a hairs breadth of evidence that Ms. Keeton would violate any of those guidelines. You keep claiming that she would and that she has said she would, but none of the articles about this case have actually said that.
I am beginning to think that you guys think she is a liar for no other reason than that she is a Christian.
Immie
But SkyDancer did post that - in Keeton's own words, she said: “[Y]ou are requiring me to alter my objective beliefs and also to commit now that if I ever may have a client who wants me to affirm their decision to have an abortion or engage in gay, lesbian, or transgender behavior, I will do that. I can’t alter my biblical beliefs, and I will not affirm the morality of those behaviors in a counseling situation.”
Sky then posted the guidelines pertaining to it.
Does Keeton deny saying that?
Apparently, Keeton is the only one making some of these claims - they do not seem substantiated by her peers at school, or any of the school faculty or staff. It seems she is not being totally honest and it has nothing to do with her being Christian or not, but with the evidence presented thus far.
The school should lose all financial support from the state and the feds.
PS...and while you're at it, please PROVE that homosexuality is anything other than a choice.
You won't because it has never been proven.
PS...and while you're at it, please PROVE that homosexuality is anything other than a choice.
You won't because it has never been proven.
I know I'm arguing with a plant, but here goes anyways:
First of all, how many gays have you ever heard say that they chose to be gay? Any?
Second, so you're choosing to be hetero and could be gay if you wanted to?
Third, you also can't prove that it is a choice.
Fourth, They're actually looking for differences in the brain, I don't know where their at, but at least they're looking, not just getting their info from a 1500 year old book.
Fifth, I think that you need some fertilizer.
PS...and while you're at it, please PROVE that homosexuality is anything other than a choice.
You won't because it has never been proven.
I know I'm arguing with a plant, but here goes anyways:
First of all, how many gays have you ever heard say that they chose to be gay? Any?
Second, so you're choosing to be hetero and could be gay if you wanted to?
Third, you also can't prove that it is a choice.
Fourth, They're actually looking for differences in the brain, I don't know where their at, but at least they're looking, not just getting their info from a 1500 year old book.
Fifth, I think that you need some fertilizer.
Loon.
Go ahead and prove it. Otherwise, you're just yapping.
PS...and while you're at it, please PROVE that homosexuality is anything other than a choice.
You won't because it has never been proven.
Prove that it's a choice. Is being heterosexual a choice for you Allie?
I know I'm arguing with a plant, but here goes anyways:
First of all, how many gays have you ever heard say that they chose to be gay? Any?
Second, so you're choosing to be hetero and could be gay if you wanted to?
Third, you also can't prove that it is a choice.
Fourth, They're actually looking for differences in the brain, I don't know where their at, but at least they're looking, not just getting their info from a 1500 year old book.
Fifth, I think that you need some fertilizer.
Loon.
Go ahead and prove it. Otherwise, you're just yapping.
You prove it. Prove that your heterosexuality is a choice. At what age did you choose to be heterosexual?
Loon.
Go ahead and prove it. Otherwise, you're just yapping.
You prove it. Prove that your heterosexuality is a choice. At what age did you choose to be heterosexual?
At the age you choose to have sex.
PS...and while you're at it, please PROVE that homosexuality is anything other than a choice.
You won't because it has never been proven.
Prove that it's a choice. Is being heterosexual a choice for you Allie?
Absolutely.
My point is, it's idiotic to required people adhere to publicly support an unproved theory as a condition of receiving a degree in any field. Even the non-scientific and constantly changing field of psychology.
Ah...so if I pay for an education, I should automatically get the credentials EVEN IF I don't meet the qualifications of finishing that credential?
Unless you can show that she has not passed the courses to date, then I would say she has met the qualifications, although, it seems apparent that the school will not let her graduate. I have a feeling that her chances of passing any future courses are slim to none. You can guarantee that those professors are not going to let her pass now.
The school needs to lose its accreditation now! Until it can prove that it will treat all students fairly.
Immie
The school is following the guidelines of the APA and ACA. All students must follow these standards. Ms Keeton is no exception.
The issue is not about the right of religious students to hold whatever beliefs they have, but over the right of a professional degree program to enforce requirements that are rooted in a sense of the field's needs and a commitment to equity.
This is about behaviors that are appropriate or not appropriate within counseling. The university's policies are consistent with the ethics code of the American Counseling Association. The university's counseling programs couldn't keep its accreditation while ignoring the code.
Keeton knew the university's curricular goal of teaching students to counsel without imposing their personal values on their clients by setting up boundaries so as not to be judgmental.
Since when are counselors required to cite their support any choice a client makes? That is not something that is required of any counselor. They are requiring it of THIS student because she's a Christian and made the horrific mistake of openly espousing Christian values.But SkyDancer did post that - in Keeton's own words, she said: “[Y]ou are requiring me to alter my objective beliefs and also to commit now that if I ever may have a client who wants me to affirm their decision to have an abortion or engage in gay, lesbian, or transgender behavior, I will do that. I can’t alter my biblical beliefs, and I will not affirm the morality of those behaviors in a counseling situation.”
Sky then posted the guidelines pertaining to it.
Does Keeton deny saying that?
Apparently, Keeton is the only one making some of these claims - they do not seem substantiated by her peers at school, or any of the school faculty or staff. It seems she is not being totally honest and it has nothing to do with her being Christian or not, but with the evidence presented thus far.
The school should lose all financial support from the state and the feds.
She has no business openly espousing her Christian values in a counseling session with a gay or lesbian client.
She want's to proselytize in a counseling session. People don't go to counseling sessions to be converted to Christianity.
Unless you can show that she has not passed the courses to date, then I would say she has met the qualifications, although, it seems apparent that the school will not let her graduate. I have a feeling that her chances of passing any future courses are slim to none. You can guarantee that those professors are not going to let her pass now.
The school needs to lose its accreditation now! Until it can prove that it will treat all students fairly.
Immie
The school is following the guidelines of the APA and ACA. All students must follow these standards. Ms Keeton is no exception.
The issue is not about the right of religious students to hold whatever beliefs they have, but over the right of a professional degree program to enforce requirements that are rooted in a sense of the field's needs and a commitment to equity.
This is about behaviors that are appropriate or not appropriate within counseling. The university's policies are consistent with the ethics code of the American Counseling Association. The university's counseling programs couldn't keep its accreditation while ignoring the code.
Keeton knew the university's curricular goal of teaching students to counsel without imposing their personal values on their clients by setting up boundaries so as not to be judgmental.
In case you do not understand the school is not the APA.
And I highly doubt that the written curriculum for the school stated anything at all about having to discard one's faith prior to graduation nor I am sure did it state anything at all about not imposing one's personal values on their client by setting up boundaries so as not to be judgmental. Although, anyone that wanted to be a counselor would know that is inappropriate and would not attempt to do so.
I hate to say it, but the fact is that despite you and Coyote insisting repeatedly throughout these threads, there is not a shred of evidence that Ms. Keeton would not provide very professional counseling to anyone.
You two can continue to insist that this is the case, but you have not proven it to be so.
Since when are counselors required to cite their support any choice a client makes? That is not something that is required of any counselor. They are requiring it of THIS student because she's a Christian and made the horrific mistake of openly espousing Christian values.
The school should lose all financial support from the state and the feds.
She has no business openly espousing her Christian values in a counseling session with a gay or lesbian client.
She want's to proselytize in a counseling session. People don't go to counseling sessions to be converted to Christianity.
She never said she would espouse her faith upon others.
Again, you can keep repeating this inaccurate statement that she plans on proselytizing but the only people you will convince are people that have not and will not read the articles.
Immie
Prove that it's a choice. Is being heterosexual a choice for you Allie?
Absolutely.
My point is, it's idiotic to required people adhere to publicly support an unproved theory as a condition of receiving a degree in any field. Even the non-scientific and constantly changing field of psychology.
Well then if you want to campaign to change the ethics of the entire counseling field have at it. That's what the Alliance Defense Fund seeks. To make Christianity the ethics of the counseling field. And not just Christianity, but the narrow kind that Ms Keeton practices.
Plenty of Christians love and accept gay people. Keeton does not. What Keeton wants to do would be harmful to gay and lesbian clients.
The ethics of the profession say do no harm.
A.4.a. Avoiding Harm
Counselors act to avoid harming their clients, trainees, and research participants
and to minimize or to remedy unavoidable or unanticipated harm.
Absolutely.
My point is, it's idiotic to required people adhere to publicly support an unproved theory as a condition of receiving a degree in any field. Even the non-scientific and constantly changing field of psychology.
Well then if you want to campaign to change the ethics of the entire counseling field have at it. That's what the Alliance Defense Fund seeks. To make Christianity the ethics of the counseling field. And not just Christianity, but the narrow kind that Ms Keeton practices.
Plenty of Christians love and accept gay people. Keeton does not. What Keeton wants to do would be harmful to gay and lesbian clients.
The ethics of the profession say do no harm.
A.4.a. Avoiding Harm
Counselors act to avoid harming their clients, trainees, and research participants
and to minimize or to remedy unavoidable or unanticipated harm.
So when did Miss Keaton harm her clients?
.
