Top Three Mysteries in Liberal Beliefs

[rightwinger]

Sure we can afford it
We just need to reallocate healthcare money spent by employers and their workers. Universal Healthcare would be significantly cheaper

The market will adjust to the availability of healthcare to all

Thanks rightwinger

I believe health care cooperatives are the most viable means of
setting up universal health care because these can respect free market choices
while preserving and utilizing existing federal funded programs. So people have
equal access and choice of the best benefits and advantages offered by the different options.

www.patientphysiciancooperatives.com

otto105 also brought up issues concerning how can
cooperatives offer both the same discounts as larger organized pools
and yet keep accountable management localized in chapters of 1500.
So federalizing all the costs and benefits is not necessary to
get the maximum benefits at the lowest costs available.

Can we discuss this seriously here, or would you prefer
a new thread since G.T. Crepitus Disir and Pogo
seem to object to the premise used to set this thread up.

Sorry about that, do you prefer we start over?
Can we keep discussing real solutions HERE?
How can we preserve the same focus from the threads
that everyone was objecting on, yet discussion solutions instead
without losing that same commitment to participate and keep answering.

It's too complicated. Much simpler just to eliminate private health insurance and consolidate everything under one umbrella.

Dear Crepitus
1. There is nothing wrong with nonprofit and private insurance
competing to offer the better benefits, lower rates and with lower or no copays/deductibles.

The nonprofit cooperative association program that has
researched this has already gotten top insurance underwriters
to offer that level of benefits and coverage.

2. Also don't forget that what may seem SIMPLE to you
would be OPPOSED by half the nation that doesn't believe
in relying or going through Govt to mandate such policies

You remind me of Prolife people who think the problem of abortion
would be simpler to solve by just BANNING it PERIOD.

You are still left with solving the problems and complications
that don't go away just by making laws against something.

Crepitus to lower the costs and raise the quality and choices in medical and health care,
this requires organizing networks where local providers contract and get paid directly by their clients.

So this has to be set up COST EFFECTIVELY anyway to be SUSTAINABLE.

The Cooperative model is based on setting up those direct relations
so it cuts the costs by eliminating insurance profits, claims, deductibles, copays.

So you don't have to change anything through govt, when these choices
can already be set up to be the most cost effective and MAXIMIZE patient choices.

NOTE: The one area of law that we could change, and these cooperatives will help,
is to make health care/medical costs 100% tax deductible if the services are paid for AT COST.
Because cooperatives would allow for both the free market structure that Conservatives defend,
and the universal care coverage that Liberals believe in as the basic standard,
then this set up would bring people from either side together in agreement
to lobby for 100% tax deductions for payments or donations for services provided at cost.

NOBODY would oppose that, but trying to ban either abortion or ban private insurance, etc.
or other restrictions on how health care choices are "regulated through govt" runs into OBJECTIONS
that WASTE TIME ENERGY AND RESOURCES better invested in solutions that cause no such objections.

For profit insurance is what got us where we are today.

It needs to go. No compromise.

Dear Crepitus
It will go faster if everyone starts patronizing
the NONPROFIT insurance programs that
will easily put the for profit out of business.

No need to waste time or money fighting politically.
the nonprofit structures cost HALF as much with
lower or no deductibles and copays. Instead of paying
for insurance profits and marketing, at 600 for every 800
spent, that money can be applied to eliminate deductibles.

Everyone wins, and nobody has to fight over legislation
that isn't even necessary.

We'd be better off helping nonprofit cooperatives get
licensing in every state, and start replicating chapters
similar to Habitat for Humanity. Teach people to run their
own programs, and the insurance companies have to
compete with the nonprofit rates or they become OBSOLETE.

www.patientphysiciancooperatives.com
PPC (nonprofit cooperative) uses a carrier for
Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Alabama to
underwrite their ERISA group employee plans.

Anyone in any state can replicate this same
pay structure, but licensing varies per state.
Crepitus we should focus there on nonprofit
licensing that can be shared universally, and
that's direct reform that will be faster than indirect
legislation that doesn't set up the actual programs.
The cooperatives programs will, that's how we can
get to universal care without legal or political battles.

The Government is a non profit insurance program

 

[Crepitus]

Sure we can afford it
We just need to reallocate healthcare money spent by employers and their workers. Universal Healthcare would be significantly cheaper

The market will adjust to the availability of healthcare to all

Thanks rightwinger

I believe health care cooperatives are the most viable means of
setting up universal health care because these can respect free market choices
while preserving and utilizing existing federal funded programs. So people have
equal access and choice of the best benefits and advantages offered by the different options.

www.patientphysiciancooperatives.com

otto105 also brought up issues concerning how can
cooperatives offer both the same discounts as larger organized pools
and yet keep accountable management localized in chapters of 1500.
So federalizing all the costs and benefits is not necessary to
get the maximum benefits at the lowest costs available.

Can we discuss this seriously here, or would you prefer
a new thread since G.T. Crepitus Disir and Pogo
seem to object to the premise used to set this thread up.

Sorry about that, do you prefer we start over?
Can we keep discussing real solutions HERE?
How can we preserve the same focus from the threads
that everyone was objecting on, yet discussion solutions instead
without losing that same commitment to participate and keep answering.

It's too complicated. Much simpler just to eliminate private health insurance and consolidate everything under one umbrella.

Dear Crepitus
1. There is nothing wrong with nonprofit and private insurance
competing to offer the better benefits, lower rates and with lower or no copays/deductibles.

The nonprofit cooperative association program that has
researched this has already gotten top insurance underwriters
to offer that level of benefits and coverage.

2. Also don't forget that what may seem SIMPLE to you
would be OPPOSED by half the nation that doesn't believe
in relying or going through Govt to mandate such policies

You remind me of Prolife people who think the problem of abortion
would be simpler to solve by just BANNING it PERIOD.

You are still left with solving the problems and complications
that don't go away just by making laws against something.

Crepitus to lower the costs and raise the quality and choices in medical and health care,
this requires organizing networks where local providers contract and get paid directly by their clients.

So this has to be set up COST EFFECTIVELY anyway to be SUSTAINABLE.

The Cooperative model is based on setting up those direct relations
so it cuts the costs by eliminating insurance profits, claims, deductibles, copays.

So you don't have to change anything through govt, when these choices
can already be set up to be the most cost effective and MAXIMIZE patient choices.

NOTE: The one area of law that we could change, and these cooperatives will help,
is to make health care/medical costs 100% tax deductible if the services are paid for AT COST.
Because cooperatives would allow for both the free market structure that Conservatives defend,
and the universal care coverage that Liberals believe in as the basic standard,
then this set up would bring people from either side together in agreement
to lobby for 100% tax deductions for payments or donations for services provided at cost.

NOBODY would oppose that, but trying to ban either abortion or ban private insurance, etc.
or other restrictions on how health care choices are "regulated through govt" runs into OBJECTIONS
that WASTE TIME ENERGY AND RESOURCES better invested in solutions that cause no such objections.

For profit insurance is what got us where we are today.

It needs to go. No compromise.

Dear Crepitus
It will go faster if everyone starts patronizing
the NONPROFIT insurance programs that
will easily put the for profit out of business.

No need to waste time or money fighting politically.
the nonprofit structures cost HALF as much with
lower or no deductibles and copays. Instead of paying
for insurance profits and marketing, at 600 for every 800
spent, that money can be applied to eliminate deductibles.

Everyone wins, and nobody has to fight over legislation
that isn't even necessary.

We'd be better off helping nonprofit cooperatives get
licensing in every state, and start replicating chapters
similar to Habitat for Humanity. Teach people to run their
own programs, and the insurance companies have to
compete with the nonprofit rates or they become OBSOLETE.

www.patientphysiciancooperatives.com
PPC (nonprofit cooperative) uses a carrier for
Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Alabama to
underwrite their ERISA group employee plans.

Anyone in any state can replicate this same
pay structure, but licensing varies per state.
Crepitus we should focus there on nonprofit
licensing that can be shared universally, and
that's direct reform that will be faster than indirect
legislation that doesn't set up the actual programs.
The cooperatives programs will, that's how we can
get to universal care without legal or political battles.

Easier and quicker to go through congress.

 

[emilynghiem]

Thanks rightwinger

I believe health care cooperatives are the most viable means of
setting up universal health care because these can respect free market choices
while preserving and utilizing existing federal funded programs. So people have
equal access and choice of the best benefits and advantages offered by the different options.

www.patientphysiciancooperatives.com

otto105 also brought up issues concerning how can
cooperatives offer both the same discounts as larger organized pools
and yet keep accountable management localized in chapters of 1500.
So federalizing all the costs and benefits is not necessary to
get the maximum benefits at the lowest costs available.

Can we discuss this seriously here, or would you prefer
a new thread since G.T. Crepitus Disir and Pogo
seem to object to the premise used to set this thread up.

Sorry about that, do you prefer we start over?
Can we keep discussing real solutions HERE?
How can we preserve the same focus from the threads
that everyone was objecting on, yet discussion solutions instead
without losing that same commitment to participate and keep answering.

It's too complicated. Much simpler just to eliminate private health insurance and consolidate everything under one umbrella.

Dear Crepitus
1. There is nothing wrong with nonprofit and private insurance
competing to offer the better benefits, lower rates and with lower or no copays/deductibles.

The nonprofit cooperative association program that has
researched this has already gotten top insurance underwriters
to offer that level of benefits and coverage.

2. Also don't forget that what may seem SIMPLE to you
would be OPPOSED by half the nation that doesn't believe
in relying or going through Govt to mandate such policies

You remind me of Prolife people who think the problem of abortion
would be simpler to solve by just BANNING it PERIOD.

You are still left with solving the problems and complications
that don't go away just by making laws against something.

Crepitus to lower the costs and raise the quality and choices in medical and health care,
this requires organizing networks where local providers contract and get paid directly by their clients.

So this has to be set up COST EFFECTIVELY anyway to be SUSTAINABLE.

The Cooperative model is based on setting up those direct relations
so it cuts the costs by eliminating insurance profits, claims, deductibles, copays.

So you don't have to change anything through govt, when these choices
can already be set up to be the most cost effective and MAXIMIZE patient choices.

NOTE: The one area of law that we could change, and these cooperatives will help,
is to make health care/medical costs 100% tax deductible if the services are paid for AT COST.
Because cooperatives would allow for both the free market structure that Conservatives defend,
and the universal care coverage that Liberals believe in as the basic standard,
then this set up would bring people from either side together in agreement
to lobby for 100% tax deductions for payments or donations for services provided at cost.

NOBODY would oppose that, but trying to ban either abortion or ban private insurance, etc.
or other restrictions on how health care choices are "regulated through govt" runs into OBJECTIONS
that WASTE TIME ENERGY AND RESOURCES better invested in solutions that cause no such objections.

For profit insurance is what got us where we are today.

It needs to go. No compromise.

Dear Crepitus
It will go faster if everyone starts patronizing
the NONPROFIT insurance programs that
will easily put the for profit out of business.

No need to waste time or money fighting politically.
the nonprofit structures cost HALF as much with
lower or no deductibles and copays. Instead of paying
for insurance profits and marketing, at 600 for every 800
spent, that money can be applied to eliminate deductibles.

Everyone wins, and nobody has to fight over legislation
that isn't even necessary.

We'd be better off helping nonprofit cooperatives get
licensing in every state, and start replicating chapters
similar to Habitat for Humanity. Teach people to run their
own programs, and the insurance companies have to
compete with the nonprofit rates or they become OBSOLETE.

www.patientphysiciancooperatives.com
PPC (nonprofit cooperative) uses a carrier for
Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Alabama to
underwrite their ERISA group employee plans.

Anyone in any state can replicate this same
pay structure, but licensing varies per state.
Crepitus we should focus there on nonprofit
licensing that can be shared universally, and
that's direct reform that will be faster than indirect
legislation that doesn't set up the actual programs.
The cooperatives programs will, that's how we can
get to universal care without legal or political battles.

The Government is a non profit insurance program

Sure rightwinger
if you CHOOSE to have federal govt manage your benefits.

Not everyone agrees on that.
Look at the prochoice/prolife division over not believing
in the same policies on abortion and birth control.
When you try to mandate policies through Govt,
then all the people paying into it have to be represented.

That's why you want to go local.

But the good thing about cooperatives, rightwinger,
if you want to go with federal clinics, funding and Obamacare
you can choose that.

It doesn't require everyone to be under it.

The people who need more benefits that are better afforded by other plans can still choose that.

And people who need everything paid by Govt and are happy
just going to federally funded clinics can have that as well.

No mandates needed to force everyone under one system!
it's not necessary to get the numbers to cover the costs
when you organize more effectively by cooperatives.

 

[Crepitus]

It's too complicated. Much simpler just to eliminate private health insurance and consolidate everything under one umbrella.

Dear Crepitus
1. There is nothing wrong with nonprofit and private insurance
competing to offer the better benefits, lower rates and with lower or no copays/deductibles.

The nonprofit cooperative association program that has
researched this has already gotten top insurance underwriters
to offer that level of benefits and coverage.

2. Also don't forget that what may seem SIMPLE to you
would be OPPOSED by half the nation that doesn't believe
in relying or going through Govt to mandate such policies

You remind me of Prolife people who think the problem of abortion
would be simpler to solve by just BANNING it PERIOD.

You are still left with solving the problems and complications
that don't go away just by making laws against something.

Crepitus to lower the costs and raise the quality and choices in medical and health care,
this requires organizing networks where local providers contract and get paid directly by their clients.

So this has to be set up COST EFFECTIVELY anyway to be SUSTAINABLE.

The Cooperative model is based on setting up those direct relations
so it cuts the costs by eliminating insurance profits, claims, deductibles, copays.

So you don't have to change anything through govt, when these choices
can already be set up to be the most cost effective and MAXIMIZE patient choices.

NOTE: The one area of law that we could change, and these cooperatives will help,
is to make health care/medical costs 100% tax deductible if the services are paid for AT COST.
Because cooperatives would allow for both the free market structure that Conservatives defend,
and the universal care coverage that Liberals believe in as the basic standard,
then this set up would bring people from either side together in agreement
to lobby for 100% tax deductions for payments or donations for services provided at cost.

NOBODY would oppose that, but trying to ban either abortion or ban private insurance, etc.
or other restrictions on how health care choices are "regulated through govt" runs into OBJECTIONS
that WASTE TIME ENERGY AND RESOURCES better invested in solutions that cause no such objections.

For profit insurance is what got us where we are today.

It needs to go. No compromise.

Dear Crepitus
It will go faster if everyone starts patronizing
the NONPROFIT insurance programs that
will easily put the for profit out of business.

No need to waste time or money fighting politically.
the nonprofit structures cost HALF as much with
lower or no deductibles and copays. Instead of paying
for insurance profits and marketing, at 600 for every 800
spent, that money can be applied to eliminate deductibles.

Everyone wins, and nobody has to fight over legislation
that isn't even necessary.

We'd be better off helping nonprofit cooperatives get
licensing in every state, and start replicating chapters
similar to Habitat for Humanity. Teach people to run their
own programs, and the insurance companies have to
compete with the nonprofit rates or they become OBSOLETE.

www.patientphysiciancooperatives.com
PPC (nonprofit cooperative) uses a carrier for
Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Alabama to
underwrite their ERISA group employee plans.

Anyone in any state can replicate this same
pay structure, but licensing varies per state.
Crepitus we should focus there on nonprofit
licensing that can be shared universally, and
that's direct reform that will be faster than indirect
legislation that doesn't set up the actual programs.
The cooperatives programs will, that's how we can
get to universal care without legal or political battles.

The Government is a non profit insurance program

Sure rightwinger
if you CHOOSE to have federal govt manage your benefits.

Not everyone agrees on that.
Look at the prochoice/prolife division over not believing
in the same policies on abortion and birth control.
When you try to mandate policies through Govt,
then all the people paying into it have to be represented.

That's why you want to go local.

But the good thing about cooperatives, rightwinger,
if you want to go with federal clinics, funding and Obamacare
you can choose that.

It doesn't require everyone to be under it.

The people who need more benefits that are better afforded by other plans can still choose that.

And people who need everything paid by Govt and are happy
just going to federally funded clinics can have that as well.

No mandates needed to force everyone under one system!
it's not necessary to get the numbers to cover the costs
when you organize more effectively by cooperatives.

Without a mandate a bunch of folks (mostly conservative types) will choose to go without until they get sick. That's not gonna work.

 

[WTH_Progs?]

I used to work for workman's comp. We had a government owned monopoly on the market, and guess what we operated heavily in the red. The debt forced private control of the industry. Next thing you know the new company was operating at a profit, so much so the employers received huge dividends early. It opened a large economic industry for the State as well, so instead of going into deeper debt the government was collecting revenue.

The Government doesn't run industries well. I worked in various places and capacities, and the closer to entitlements the worse the operation. They'll turn a 5 man-hour job into 100 or even 1000, and do it wrong anyway because they're just that dysfunctional. Many earn 70-100K a year and many of those have degrees. Somehow I'd expect more effectiveness and maturity from 14 year olds.