Emily..literally every law, pact, regulation, tax or red tape is based on a belief. The constitution itself is based on beliefs. You are too naive for air, just like I said...and its not for offense but just to tell you my position on the fluffernutter things youve got to say.I don't like the hard right religious indoctrination wrapped up in fuddy duddy, "fairness for all" pie in the sky baby girl bullshit every time a policy is passed that isn't hard right religious indoctrination bullshit...Voting them in IS the consent. No, I'm not interested in your discussions. They're naive, 100% of the time...and I also don't believe your intentions are good in spite of your assertions to the contrary. Your intentions shine through your phraseology. Not interesting at all.No, I think for me - to engage you in conversation would require you recognizing that it's trollish to proclaim what some invisible entity's beliefs are and then ask how that invisible entity's beliefs are not contradictory...and not only that - but be clearly incorrect about it since it's remarkably rare to hear a person proclaim they want all guns banned...or any of the other bullshit in the OP.
I want to know why you engage in the inflammatory and disingenuous rhetoric that has made messageboards a vile place for discourse in the first place.
Let's see you come to terms with your bullshit OP and its motivations befor I waste any time trying to be "serious" with you. You also labeled me, AGAIN as "progressive" whereas I don't identify as any such thing.
I also think you have the poorest possible understanding of most anyone on the board as to what elected representatives are sent to do. They're not sent to placate every side of every issue, they're there to fulfill the will of the voters that put them there. To REPRESENT them.
Hi G.T. and sorry to give the wrong impression here.
A. I totally agree that it isn't "all liberals" who want to ban guns outright.
But yes, I do know and have run into such people even at my local
fellowship who preach about banning guns, and having gun free schools
and district. so it's not like this mindset doesn't exist at all.
It may be the minority, but that's enough to make it worth addressing.
I'm GLAD if you and me and others advocate for better solutions.
That is why I asked to hear from others like you with better solutions.
Pogo also made it clear.
so that's what I'm asking for.
Sorry I set up the thread in such a way as to appear
NOT interested in that.
B. As for representatives, do you agree that even while
representing the beliefs of the district and populations these reps serve
NO ONE IN GOVT SERVICE SHOULD BE VIOLATING CONSTITUTIONAL
LAWS, ETHICS, LIMITS AND SEPARATION OF POWERS.
I totally agree that reps should be representing the people.
But since Govt cannot establish beliefs or mandates AGAINST the will of the people, it makes more sense that the PEOPLE form policies that represent
the public and then WE instruct GOVT officials in what is approved by the PEOPLE in order for policies and reforms to reflect the consent of the taxpayers
and citizens affected and served by govt and public policies and institutions.
Do you have any issues with that?
With making sure that govt and policies reflect the CONSENT of the people governed? And the taxpayers paying for policies so we agree on the terms of payment and services?
Thanks G.T.
I'm okay starting over with a different thread and different premise
if that would work better than whatever is objected to here.
Sorry about that, but whatever it takes,
the whole point and purpose IS to discuss
working solutions and approaches. Whatever that takes!
???
What "intentions" are you talking about G.T.
What is wrong with setting up local representation by party
so that all people can redress grievances without depending
on being voted in before we enjoy equal rights and protections.
What do you think will go wrong that you think
I am either "naive" about or actively trying to do that is negative here?
Thanks G.T.
sorry if I still come across wrong or disingenuous.
Whatever is causing that, we need to fix it if we are going
to implement sustainable health care, education and other
solutions to social problems that require democratizing districts
so resources are invested into cost effective programs that work
instead of wasted on fighting politically without solving problems!
...and every time you say something stupid like "setting up local representation by party,"...
when we already have that,,,
and you pretend it's some new or needed idea...
JUST because your Religious views, YOU FEEL, aren't getting their shine.....THAT'S a clearly hidden intention. Raise your hand.
It's... in effect... whining. Quit whining.
We HAVE local representatives.
We HAVE national representatives.
We DO Vote for our beliefs, and we win and lose.
There's nothing "unfair" about society moving past certain mores and traditions. Go out in your back yard, start a mini government for your friends and family and be happy. Quit pretending you don't already have the Vote...both locally and nationally...every time a policy decision doesn't go your way. It's old.
Dear G.T.
Okay let's address two separate points you bring up
and thank you for clarifying all this in detail
1. First, I am ALSO rallying and working DIRECTLY with members of religious right,
right to life, and Christian Constitutionalist positions to STOP THEM FROM
TRYING TO PUSH THEIR BELIEFS THROUGH GOVT AS WELL.
So NO I DO NOT SUPPORT THAT EITHER WHICH IS EQUALLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
I end up having to tell my friends who believe in pushing the Bible or Christian based govt
including right to life that the Constitutional limits APPLY TO THEIR FAITH BASED BELIEFS AS WELL.
So NO, to answer to your statements assuming that I support that,
I equally have to ENFORCE THE CONSTITUTION with my Christian/Conservative/Prolife
friends as well.
They don't like to hear this either, but the same laws apply to ALL faith based beliefs.
If we are going to allow Christian beliefs to be established by Govt
then LGBT beliefs should be allowed this as well; if one side is going to lobby
to REMOVE LGBT beliefs, then the other should be allowed to REMOVE CHRISTIAN beliefs.
The Laws/Govt should remain NEUTRAL and not impose
EITHER the BELIEFS of the Right against the free choice CONSENT and equal protection/inclusion of the left
or the BELIEFS of the Left against the free choice CONSENT and equal protection/inclusion of the right.
^ Can I please clarify this IMPORTANT point with you about Constitutional equal protection under law
of ALL people to be protected from infringement or abuse of Govt from BELIEFS they don't consent to.
That goes for the Right to be protected from the Left
EQUALLY as it applies to protecting the Left from the Right.
NO BELIEFS should be established by Govt unless everyone consents to that!
G.T. please confirm this point is clear.
If not, please tell me why, what objections or problems do you
see either with me or my above beliefs/interpretation.
Representative government...represents what?
The BELIEFS of those represented.
EVERYTHING done is based on beliefs.
Does EVERYONE believe RAPE should be illegal? Lets ask a Rapist if others' beliefs are being imposed upon them.
Does EVERYONE believe in a Constitution? Lets ask some fascists and commies if they're at all feeling imposed upon...by the existence of the Const.
Does EVERYONE believe in borders...and states? Lets ask some true anarchists how they feel about a Constitutional Govt which imposes the belief of borders on everyone else in the world.
Your view is simple minded and absurd. A Nation itself is an imposition of beliefs.
So...in conclusion, your statement that "NO BELIEFS should be established by govt unless EVERYONE consents" is the dumbest statement ever uttered......for the above reasons and 1. every act is based on beliefs...and 2. 100% consensus is not and never was required and is not written anywhere, n'or was ever had.
Naive.
Dumb.
either
both
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