Tropospheric Hot Spot- Why it does not exist...

[mamooth]

[Over on WUWT an article is posted on thermodynamic limitation of our climate system. Just one more nail in the coffin of AGW...

And it was enseless handwaving.

The CO2 monster is dying a horrid death. Basically the input of energy to the system is relatively stable and thus the actions of that system can not change drastically.. So all of their hype is pure BS...

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

The energy in storms is a small fraction of the energy of all weather.

Hence, storm energy can increase, with the energy easily shifting from other areas. "Earth gets finite energy" in no way prevents that energy from shifting about more chaotically.

So, that was a fine example of the total lack of common sense found at WUWT.

 

[Billy_Bob]

[Over on WUWT an article is posted on thermodynamic limitation of our climate system. Just one more nail in the coffin of AGW...

And it was enseless handwaving.

The CO2 monster is dying a horrid death. Basically the input of energy to the system is relatively stable and thus the actions of that system can not change drastically.. So all of their hype is pure BS...

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

The energy in storms is a small fraction of the energy of all weather.

Hence, storm energy can increase, with the energy easily shifting from other areas. "Earth gets finite energy" in no way prevents that energy from shifting about more chaotically.

So, that was a fine example of the total lack of common sense found at WUWT.

I am not supprised that this too went over your damn head...


Constrained work output of the moist atmospheric heat engine in a warming climate

"Incoming and outgoing solar radiation couple with heat exchange at Earth’s surface to drive weather patterns that redistribute heat and moisture around the globe, creating an atmospheric heat engine. Here, we investigate the engine’s work output using thermodynamic diagrams computed from reanalyzed observations and from a climate model simulation with anthropogenic forcing. We show that the work output is always less than that of an equivalent Carnot cycle and that it is constrained by the power necessary to maintain the hydrological cycle. In the climate simulation, the hydrological cycle increases more rapidly than the equivalent Carnot cycle. We conclude that the intensification of the hydrological cycle in warmer climates might limit the heat engine’s ability to generate work."

Read more (requires registration): Constrained work output of the moist atmospheric heat engine in a warming climate | Science

 

[mamooth]

The base of the troposphere on Uranus is 33K warmer than Earth’s, despite receiving only 2 W/m2 from the Sun. Are you going to claim that what small amount of greenhouse gases exist there are able to amplify 2 W/m2 to 602 W/m2?

"Small amount"?

Riiiiiiiight.

Uranus has a 300km troposphere, stuffed full of various greenhouse gases, with massive pressure at the bottom. The GHG concentrations are like a zillion times more than earth.

 

[mamooth]

I am not supprised that this too went over your damn head...

I'm not surprised you didn't look at the paper, and instead just parroted the WUWT misrepresentation of it. Here's how the author summarizes it.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/01/150129143040.htm
---
"Put more simply, powerful storms are strengthened at the expense of weaker storms," said Laliberte. "We believe atmospheric circulation will adapt to this less efficient form of heat transfer and we will see either fewer storms overall or at least a weakening of the most common, weaker storms."
----

It's not the number of storms that gets you. It's the peak storm. And that paper said he peak storms will get stronger.

 

[SSDD]

The base of the troposphere on Uranus is 33K warmer than Earth’s, despite receiving only 2 W/m2 from the Sun. Are you going to claim that what small amount of greenhouse gases exist there are able to amplify 2 W/m2 to 602 W/m2?

"Small amount"?

Riiiiiiiight.

Uranus has a 300km troposphere, stuffed full of various greenhouse gases, with massive pressure at the bottom. The GHG concentrations are like a zillion times more than earth.

SSSSSWWWWWIIIIIINNNNNNGGGGGG and another miss...

• Molecular hydrogen: 82.5%
• Helium: 15.2%
• Methane: 2.3%

Now...using the standard calculations for the greenhouse effect here, predict the temperature on Uranus which receives about 2 W/m2 of energy from the sun...and don't forget that the bulk of the methane is very deep in the atmosphere which reflects most of the paltry sunlight reaching the planet because it is mostly hydrogen and helium ice.

The fact is that the temperature in the troposphere is due to pressure...not anything like a greenhouse effect.

 

[Billy_Bob]

I am not supprised that this too went over your damn head...

I'm not surprised you didn't look at the paper, and instead just parroted the WUWT misrepresentation of it. Here's how the author summarizes it.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/01/150129143040.htm
---
"Put more simply, powerful storms are strengthened at the expense of weaker storms," said Laliberte. "We believe atmospheric circulation will adapt to this less efficient form of heat transfer and we will see either fewer storms overall or at least a weakening of the most common, weaker storms."
----

It's not the number of storms that gets you. It's the peak storm. And that paper said he peak storms will get stronger.

Where are you going to get the energy to make these 'peak' storms? If cloud cover increases than energy into the system falls.. which just happens to be a function of water vapor.. Had you read the paper you would have found out that we can not become a Carnot system due to entropy... but alas you believe in the self-powering, never-ending energy loop of AGW..

WE cant fix your stupidity.

 

[SSDD]

I am not supprised that this too went over your damn head...

I'm not surprised you didn't look at the paper, and instead just parroted the WUWT misrepresentation of it. Here's how the author summarizes it.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/01/150129143040.htm
---
"Put more simply, powerful storms are strengthened at the expense of weaker storms," said Laliberte. "We believe atmospheric circulation will adapt to this less efficient form of heat transfer and we will see either fewer storms overall or at least a weakening of the most common, weaker storms."
----

It's not the number of storms that gets you. It's the peak storm. And that paper said he peak storms will get stronger.

Where are you going to get the energy to make these 'peak' storms? If cloud cover increases than energy into the system falls.. which just happens to be a function of water vapor.. Had you read the paper you would have found out that we can not become a Carnot system due to entropy... but alas you believe in the self-powering, never-ending energy loop of AGW..
.

Just one more example of where climate science has failed...it is inevitable, I guess when you have liberal graduates from a soft science curriculum trying to do what should be done by graduates from a hard science curriculum.

 

[mamooth]

SSSSSWWWWWIIIIIINNNNNNGGGGGG and another miss...

• Molecular hydrogen: 82.5%
• Helium: 15.2%
• Methane: 2.3%

I always have fun humiliating you like this.

Atmosphere of Uranus - Wikipedia
----
At depth it is significantly enriched in volatiles (dubbed "ices") such as water, ammonia and methane.

The troposphere hosts four cloud layers: methane clouds at about 1.2 bar, hydrogen sulfide and ammonia clouds at 3–10 bar, ammonium hydrosulfide clouds at 20–40 bar, and finally water clouds below 50 bar. Only the upper two cloud layers have been observed directly—the deeper clouds remain speculative. Above the clouds lie several tenuous layers of photochemical haze.
----

Your kook theory relies on pretending the composition at the top of the Uranus atmosphere is the same as the deep composition.

 

[mamooth]

Where are you going to get the energy to make these 'peak' storms?

How about you read what I just posted? The author of the paper makes it very clear where his paper says the energy comes from.

"Put more simply, powerful storms are strengthened at the expense of weaker storms,"

If cloud cover increases than energy into the system falls.. which just happens to be a function of water vapor..

Why are you disagreeing with the author of the paper that you had just declared was the bestest thing ever? I think he knows what his paper said better than you.

Had you read the paper you would have found out that we can not become a Carnot system due to entropy...

You have no idea what the paper says, because you never looked at it. You're just parroting buzzwords that you don't understand.

I did look at the paper. And it's extremely difficult material, really high level thermo stuff. I'd have to spend weeks on it before I could comment on it. You don't stand a chance.

But as I don't have weeks to spend on it, I'll just go with the author's summary.

 

[SSDD]

SSSSSWWWWWIIIIIINNNNNNGGGGGG and another miss...

• Molecular hydrogen: 82.5%
• Helium: 15.2%
• Methane: 2.3%

I always have fun humiliating you like this.

Atmosphere of Uranus - Wikipedia
----
At depth it is significantly enriched in volatiles (dubbed "ices") such as water, ammonia and methane.

The troposphere hosts four cloud layers: methane clouds at about 1.2 bar, hydrogen sulfide and ammonia clouds at 3–10 bar, ammonium hydrosulfide clouds at 20–40 bar, and finally water clouds below 50 bar. Only the upper two cloud layers have been observed directly—the deeper clouds remain speculative. Above the clouds lie several tenuous layers of photochemical haze.
----

Your kook theory relies on pretending the composition at the top of the Uranus atmosphere is the same as the deep composition.

Another Swwwwwiiiiinnnnggggg and another miss....The count is 2 and 0


Still waiting hairball...lets see the math...it wouldn't make any difference if the entire atmosphere were methane...there isn't enough incoming solar for a greenhouse effect as described by climate science to reach a temperature anywhere near 33K warmer than the base of our own troposphere...

Again...the temperature there is what it is due to pressure...

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

SSSSSWWWWWIIIIIINNNNNNGGGGGG and another miss...

• Molecular hydrogen: 82.5%
• Helium: 15.2%
• Methane: 2.3%

I always have fun humiliating you like this.

Atmosphere of Uranus - Wikipedia
----
At depth it is significantly enriched in volatiles (dubbed "ices") such as water, ammonia and methane.

The troposphere hosts four cloud layers: methane clouds at about 1.2 bar, hydrogen sulfide and ammonia clouds at 3–10 bar, ammonium hydrosulfide clouds at 20–40 bar, and finally water clouds below 50 bar. Only the upper two cloud layers have been observed directly—the deeper clouds remain speculative. Above the clouds lie several tenuous layers of photochemical haze.
----

Your kook theory relies on pretending the composition at the top of the Uranus atmosphere is the same as the deep composition.

Another Swwwwwiiiiinnnnggggg and another miss....The count is 2 and 0


Still waiting hairball...lets see the math...it wouldn't make any difference if the entire atmosphere were methane...there isn't enough incoming solar for a greenhouse effect as described by climate science to reach a temperature anywhere near 33K warmer than the base of our own troposphere...

Again...the temperature there is what it is due to pressure...

Another Swwwwwiiiiinnnnggggg and another miss....The count is 2 and 0

Wow, bad at physics and baseball.

 

[SSDD]

SSSSSWWWWWIIIIIINNNNNNGGGGGG and another miss...

• Molecular hydrogen: 82.5%
• Helium: 15.2%
• Methane: 2.3%

I always have fun humiliating you like this.

Atmosphere of Uranus - Wikipedia
----
At depth it is significantly enriched in volatiles (dubbed "ices") such as water, ammonia and methane.

The troposphere hosts four cloud layers: methane clouds at about 1.2 bar, hydrogen sulfide and ammonia clouds at 3–10 bar, ammonium hydrosulfide clouds at 20–40 bar, and finally water clouds below 50 bar. Only the upper two cloud layers have been observed directly—the deeper clouds remain speculative. Above the clouds lie several tenuous layers of photochemical haze.
----

Your kook theory relies on pretending the composition at the top of the Uranus atmosphere is the same as the deep composition.

Another Swwwwwiiiiinnnnggggg and another miss....The count is 2 and 0


Still waiting hairball...lets see the math...it wouldn't make any difference if the entire atmosphere were methane...there isn't enough incoming solar for a greenhouse effect as described by climate science to reach a temperature anywhere near 33K warmer than the base of our own troposphere...

Again...the temperature there is what it is due to pressure...

Another Swwwwwiiiiinnnnggggg and another miss....The count is 2 and 0

Wow, bad at physics and baseball.

Maybe you would like to do the math and show us how a greenhouse effect as described by climate science could make the base of the troposphere on Uranus 33K warmer than our own with 2Wm2 of incoming solar radiation and and atmosphere that is hydrogen, helium, and 2.3% methane..and show us how good you are at physics....or not.

 

[mamooth]

Awww. Todd beat me to pointing out SSDD's bad baseball.

Still waiting hairball...lets see the math...

Not necessary. I just had to point out you lied big about the lack of greenhouse gases on Uranus. That rips your kook theory to shreds.

As for doing the math, I just have to point out that a 300km thick blanket is a hell of an insulator. Maybe you should show us the math that says otherwise. real math, not your meaningless "I can't believe it, so it's not true!" handwaving.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

SSSSSWWWWWIIIIIINNNNNNGGGGGG and another miss...

• Molecular hydrogen: 82.5%
• Helium: 15.2%
• Methane: 2.3%

I always have fun humiliating you like this.

Atmosphere of Uranus - Wikipedia
----
At depth it is significantly enriched in volatiles (dubbed "ices") such as water, ammonia and methane.

The troposphere hosts four cloud layers: methane clouds at about 1.2 bar, hydrogen sulfide and ammonia clouds at 3–10 bar, ammonium hydrosulfide clouds at 20–40 bar, and finally water clouds below 50 bar. Only the upper two cloud layers have been observed directly—the deeper clouds remain speculative. Above the clouds lie several tenuous layers of photochemical haze.
----

Your kook theory relies on pretending the composition at the top of the Uranus atmosphere is the same as the deep composition.

Another Swwwwwiiiiinnnnggggg and another miss....The count is 2 and 0


Still waiting hairball...lets see the math...it wouldn't make any difference if the entire atmosphere were methane...there isn't enough incoming solar for a greenhouse effect as described by climate science to reach a temperature anywhere near 33K warmer than the base of our own troposphere...

Again...the temperature there is what it is due to pressure...

Another Swwwwwiiiiinnnnggggg and another miss....The count is 2 and 0

Wow, bad at physics and baseball.

Maybe you would like to do the math and show us how a greenhouse effect as described by climate science could make the base of the troposphere on Uranus 33K warmer than our own with 2Wm2 of incoming solar radiation and and atmosphere that is hydrogen, helium, and 2.3% methane..and show us how good you are at physics....or not.

Sure, right after you show how objects of the same temperature cease emitting when you place them next to each other.

 

[SSDD]

SSSSSWWWWWIIIIIINNNNNNGGGGGG and another miss...

• Molecular hydrogen: 82.5%
• Helium: 15.2%
• Methane: 2.3%

I always have fun humiliating you like this.

Atmosphere of Uranus - Wikipedia
----
At depth it is significantly enriched in volatiles (dubbed "ices") such as water, ammonia and methane.

The troposphere hosts four cloud layers: methane clouds at about 1.2 bar, hydrogen sulfide and ammonia clouds at 3–10 bar, ammonium hydrosulfide clouds at 20–40 bar, and finally water clouds below 50 bar. Only the upper two cloud layers have been observed directly—the deeper clouds remain speculative. Above the clouds lie several tenuous layers of photochemical haze.
----

Your kook theory relies on pretending the composition at the top of the Uranus atmosphere is the same as the deep composition.

Another Swwwwwiiiiinnnnggggg and another miss....The count is 2 and 0


Still waiting hairball...lets see the math...it wouldn't make any difference if the entire atmosphere were methane...there isn't enough incoming solar for a greenhouse effect as described by climate science to reach a temperature anywhere near 33K warmer than the base of our own troposphere...

Again...the temperature there is what it is due to pressure...

Another Swwwwwiiiiinnnnggggg and another miss....The count is 2 and 0

Wow, bad at physics and baseball.

Maybe you would like to do the math and show us how a greenhouse effect as described by climate science could make the base of the troposphere on Uranus 33K warmer than our own with 2Wm2 of incoming solar radiation and and atmosphere that is hydrogen, helium, and 2.3% methane..and show us how good you are at physics....or not.

Sure, right after you show how objects of the same temperature cease emitting when you place them next to each other.

What I thought....I never claimed to know why energy doesn't move from cool to warm...I just said that it did.......and we both know that you can't do the math showing how a greenhouse effect on uranus with the paltry solar energy coming in manages to warm the lower troposphere to 33K warmer than our own...but then, I knew you couldn't when you made the claim.

 

[SSDD]

Not necessary. I just had to point out you lied big about the lack of greenhouse gases on Uranus. That rips your kook theory to shreds.

According to NASA...the atmosphere is as I said...

Uranus' atmosphere is mostly hydrogen and helium, with a small amount of methane and traces of water and ammonia. The methane gives Uranus its signature blue color.

As for doing the math, I just have to point out that a 300km thick blanket is a hell of an insulator. Maybe you should show us the math that says otherwise. real math, not your meaningless "I can't believe it, so it's not true!" handwaving.

Refer to the ideal gas laws hairball....

 

[mamooth]

Here's some quick math demolishing SSDD's pseudoscience fantasy.

According to wiki, Uranus radiates significantly less net heat (per square meter) than earth. (net heat = total heat radiated - absorbed solar energy).

Uranus - Wikipedia
---
Uranus's internal heat appears markedly lower than that of the other giant planets; in astronomical terms, it has a low thermal flux.[17][68] Why Uranus's internal temperature is so low is still not understood. Neptune, which is Uranus's near twin in size and composition, radiates 2.61 times as much energy into space as it receives from the Sun,[17] but Uranus radiates hardly any excess heat at all. The total power radiated by Uranus in the far infrared (i.e. heat) part of the spectrum is 1.06 ± 0.08 times the solar energy absorbed in its atmosphere.[12][69] Uranus's heat flux is only 0.042 ± 0.047 W/m2, which is lower than the internal heat flux of Earth of about 0.075 W/m2.[69] The lowest temperature recorded in Uranus's tropopause is 49 K (−224 °C), making Uranus the coldest planet in the Solar System.[
---

However, Uranus has a much thicker atmosphere than earth. Since SSDD's loopy theory says that it's the amount of the gravity-induced pressure gradient that creates heat, and Uranus has a far, far larger such gradient, then Uranus should be generating far more such heat than earth.

But no, the opposite happens.

Hence, SSDD's kook theory is conclusively proven, by the math, to be totally delusional.

 

[SSDD]

SSSSSWWWWWIIIIIINNNNNNGGGGGG and another miss...

• Molecular hydrogen: 82.5%
• Helium: 15.2%
• Methane: 2.3%

I always have fun humiliating you like this.

Atmosphere of Uranus - Wikipedia
----
At depth it is significantly enriched in volatiles (dubbed "ices") such as water, ammonia and methane.

The troposphere hosts four cloud layers: methane clouds at about 1.2 bar, hydrogen sulfide and ammonia clouds at 3–10 bar, ammonium hydrosulfide clouds at 20–40 bar, and finally water clouds below 50 bar. Only the upper two cloud layers have been observed directly—the deeper clouds remain speculative. Above the clouds lie several tenuous layers of photochemical haze.
----

Your kook theory relies on pretending the composition at the top of the Uranus atmosphere is the same as the deep composition.

Another Swwwwwiiiiinnnnggggg and another miss....The count is 2 and 0


Still waiting hairball...lets see the math...it wouldn't make any difference if the entire atmosphere were methane...there isn't enough incoming solar for a greenhouse effect as described by climate science to reach a temperature anywhere near 33K warmer than the base of our own troposphere...

Again...the temperature there is what it is due to pressure...

Another Swwwwwiiiiinnnnggggg and another miss....The count is 2 and 0

Wow, bad at physics and baseball.

Maybe you would like to do the math and show us how a greenhouse effect as described by climate science could make the base of the troposphere on Uranus 33K warmer than our own with 2Wm2 of incoming solar radiation and and atmosphere that is hydrogen, helium, and 2.3% methane..and show us how good you are at physics....or not.

Sure, right after you show how objects of the same temperature cease emitting when you place them next to each other.

Like I said...I have no idea why...just as I have no idea of the fundamental mechanism of gravity...one doesn't need to know the mechanism in order to know what every observation ever made suggests...now you just suggested that you are good at physics...lets see the math showing that a greenhouse effect as described by climate science manages a temperature 33K warmer than ours at the base of the troposphere...or you could not and in doing so, admit that you aren't so good at physics, or math yourself and in doing so, acknowledge that your opinion means little.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I always have fun humiliating you like this.

Atmosphere of Uranus - Wikipedia
----
At depth it is significantly enriched in volatiles (dubbed "ices") such as water, ammonia and methane.

The troposphere hosts four cloud layers: methane clouds at about 1.2 bar, hydrogen sulfide and ammonia clouds at 3–10 bar, ammonium hydrosulfide clouds at 20–40 bar, and finally water clouds below 50 bar. Only the upper two cloud layers have been observed directly—the deeper clouds remain speculative. Above the clouds lie several tenuous layers of photochemical haze.
----

Your kook theory relies on pretending the composition at the top of the Uranus atmosphere is the same as the deep composition.

Another Swwwwwiiiiinnnnggggg and another miss....The count is 2 and 0


Still waiting hairball...lets see the math...it wouldn't make any difference if the entire atmosphere were methane...there isn't enough incoming solar for a greenhouse effect as described by climate science to reach a temperature anywhere near 33K warmer than the base of our own troposphere...

Again...the temperature there is what it is due to pressure...

Another Swwwwwiiiiinnnnggggg and another miss....The count is 2 and 0

Wow, bad at physics and baseball.

Maybe you would like to do the math and show us how a greenhouse effect as described by climate science could make the base of the troposphere on Uranus 33K warmer than our own with 2Wm2 of incoming solar radiation and and atmosphere that is hydrogen, helium, and 2.3% methane..and show us how good you are at physics....or not.

Sure, right after you show how objects of the same temperature cease emitting when you place them next to each other.

What I thought....I never claimed to know why energy doesn't move from cool to warm...I just said that it did.......and we both know that you can't do the math showing how a greenhouse effect on uranus with the paltry solar energy coming in manages to warm the lower troposphere to 33K warmer than our own...but then, I knew you couldn't when you made the claim.

What I thought....I never claimed to know why energy doesn't move from cool to warm

You claimed matter ceases to emit, just because it is near matter of the same temperature.
That's a unique twist on equilibrium, but I guess you need it for your "back-radiation doesn't exist" epicycle system.

and we both know that you can't do the math showing how a greenhouse effect on uranus with the paltry solar energy coming in manages to warm the lower troposphere to 33K warmer than our own

Who would be dumb enough to assume the only factor in the temperature was the greenhouse effect?
Oh, right. LOL!

...but then, I knew you couldn't when you made the claim.

I made no claim about temperatures on distant planets. DERP!

 

[Wuwei]

What I thought....I never claimed to know why energy doesn't move from cool to warm...I just said that it did.

You are making a claim that no scientist over the last 100 years believes, and you don't know why you make that claim. That is weird.