True Story & The Issue of Race

[JBvM]

My family moved to an almost all Black neighborhood for a year right after MLK was assassinated. Whatever was my family thinking. Me and my mom (mother and child) had rocks thrown at us on a few buses (and more shit), and it was not a good year for a youth growing into adolescence. I walked away from that with little in the way of feelings of anger or hatred towards Blacks as a group. Why would I? I was an extremely curious and intelligent youngster, and I was not going to look at others to blame for the actions of a few, and a mob. Sadly, I had a brother who walked away with different lessons and outlook.

Later as a Teenager, I along with two others got Summer jobs in a pilot program. It was determined that one of the three of us had to be a Black person. The terrible part of that Summer was watching the Black kid we grew up with being told "You don't have to hang around or do anything. Just check and and come back at the end of the day and check out." That really, really made an impression on me, and in ways a Black person could never understand, because any Black person could never have been on the outside looking in, feeling what I had to feel. This through no fault of my own. I was a friggin Teenager. I was not in control of the adults in the world around me

A year or so later I went for a Summer with the city. I was told even though it was early (for us regular folks, the set asides for politically connected, the quotas, were always filled by default), that I shouldn't bother, a new system had quotas for minorities and I would not be getting a Summer job that year. Did I get angry or upset? Not really, I was pretty easy going. But I did run it all through my mind. I understood it was more about setting things straight in the now, than it was about making up for the past. I struggled with, was it about the - (pay attention IM2), sins of the fathers? I guess it all depends on how one seeks to see it and how it is framed, but I didn't see it as a punishment.

But was I personally paying for the past, a past I had absolutely no control over? Was I really paying for the past, or was I just there at the wrong time for myself? Was it really about me personally? The point is not an attempt at an equivalency with what people of color have had to go through, and still have to go through. What some/many Black people experience on a day to day basis (depending on where one lives), is something I can only observe through a prism that distorts just what I am viewing. The point is we all have our individual stories and experiences. Were I to hitch mine to those of others and become *clannish, I would probably start viewing it all as a personal assault on me as a White person.

IM2 MarcATL

Years later I moved to a few mostly Black cities for periods of time (years). I experienced ignorance, anger, and sometimes outright hatred by a few Black people who looked at me as being a symbol of their own personal pain and suffering. I could have focused on that subgroup and come away with a justified anger and hatred of Black people. But I have had far too many Black friends throughout my lifetime to go down that easy road. I guess what is lost is the personal contact between people of different cultures, and nationalities. There exist programs where outright, hardcore racists are brought into close personal contact with others and something very enlightening happens.

I believe Malcolm X had some kind of enlightening experience after he visited Mecca. He was able to see more clearly. Then he was assassinated because of it

 

[Asclepias]

The anger is due to the way that so called AA operates. The truth is that AA has never been strictly for Blacks and white women have benefited from it the most which has caused a boost in the income white families draw. Its amazing you have stayed open minded with all that BS floating around out there. For every token Black person put on by AA there are probably a hundred that have been railroaded into prison or had their spot taken by another minority...probably a white woman. The only way to change it is to give it specifically to Black people or reparations. I wont be holding my breath for either.

"A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for the Negro."
-MLK

 

[JBvM]

The anger is due to the way that so called AA operates. The truth is that AA has never been strictly for Blacks and white women have benefited from it the most which has caused a boost in the income white families draw. Its amazing you have stayed open minded with all that BS floating around out there. For every token Black person put on by AA there are probably a hundred that have been railroaded into prison or had their spot taken by another minority...probably a white woman. The only way to change it is to give it specifically to Black people or reparations. I wont be holding my breath for either.

"A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for the Negro."
-MLK

Any debate and conversation on what we call 'racial issues' seems to always deteriorate into victimhood and anger on all sides. The reparations thing is interesting, because some people want to excuse the African families and Tribes that benefited hugely from capturing and enslaving and selling their fellow Africans into what they know (we have documentation) would be a horror show.

Reparations based solely on the actions of the former colonies and the later American government need to be argued outside of victimhood and specious ideological tracts that sideline the issue with blame games, and other agendas. No one denies slavery existed in the Americas. An overwhelming majority of slaves brought over to the Americas went to South America and the islands. Cherry pick blocks of decades and one can make all sorts of arguments about who, why, how of it all. That would be agenda driven

Institutional Racism in America was often beyond the control of the average citizen. In most places, Whites never came into contact with any number of Blacks. So how they benefited by Jim Crow laws in the South is another issue with agendas

 

[TNHarley]

I wont be holding my breath for either.

-MLK

I wouldnt either. I will never give away my hard earned money to people that didnt earn it, for things i had nothing to do with.
I imagine there are over 100M people that feel the same.

 

[Asclepias]

The anger is due to the way that so called AA operates. The truth is that AA has never been strictly for Blacks and white women have benefited from it the most which has caused a boost in the income white families draw. Its amazing you have stayed open minded with all that BS floating around out there. For every token Black person put on by AA there are probably a hundred that have been railroaded into prison or had their spot taken by another minority...probably a white woman. The only way to change it is to give it specifically to Black people or reparations. I wont be holding my breath for either.

"A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for the Negro."
-MLK

Any debate and conversation on what we call 'racial issues' seems to always deteriorate into victimhood and anger on all sides. The reparations thing is interesting, because some people want to excuse the African families and Tribes that benefited hugely from capturing and enslaving and selling their fellow Africans into what they know (we have documentation) would be a horror show.

Reparations based solely on the actions of the former colonies and the later American government need to be argued outside of victimhood and specious ideological tracts that sideline the issue with blame games, and other agendas. No one denies slavery existed in the Americas. An overwhelming majority of slaves brought over to the Americas went to South America and the islands. Cherry pick blocks of decades and one can make all sorts of arguments about who, why, how of it all. That would be agenda driven

Institutional Racism in America was often beyond the control of the average citizen. In most places, Whites never came into contact with any number of Blacks. So how they benefited by Jim Crow laws in the South is another issue with agendas

I dont think the Africans have anything to do with the US slave policy. I think thats simply a deflection from the issue. Africans didnt force the US to keep slavery for 300 plus years and subsequent methods of robbing Blacks of wealth and the ability to vote for another 50 plus years. Reparations should be paid by the countries that practiced it to the the people in their country that were and still are affected by it. Its the collective responsibility of the country to pay. Not individuals that profited peripherally.

 

[Asclepias]

I wont be holding my breath for either.

-MLK

I wouldnt either. I will never give away my hard earned money to people that didnt earn it, for things i had nothing to do with.
I imagine there are over 100M people that feel the same.

You give away money if you pay taxes. I wouldnt come to you and ask you specifically for reparations. Hell you couldnt afford it.

 

[JBvM]

I dont think the Africans have anything to do with the US slave policy.

Except without them there is and transatlantic slave trade. And because some people use it as a deflection in some arguments, does not make it irrelevant to a serious discussion of reparations. I loved watching Christopher Hitchens address this issue. Chris was an old lefty who spent a great deal of time in Africa and defending Africans in arguments for decades before it was hip

 

[TNHarley]

Where is my reparations from the Africans that enslaved my great great great grandfather in 1834?
Where are the black americans reparations from the tribal leaders that sold their great great great grandfather for a bucket of oranges?

Good gawd americans are so entitled...

 

[Asclepias]

I dont think the Africans have anything to do with the US slave policy.

Except without them there is and transatlantic slave trade. And because some people use it as a deflection in some arguments, does not make it irrelevant to a serious discussion of reparations. I loved watching Christopher Hitchens address this issue. Chris was an old lefty who spent a great deal of time in Africa and defending Africans in arguments for decades before it was hip

Thats patently false as Europeans showed up with guns and took Blacks for the slave trade. There was going to be a slave trade regardless if Africans fought against the superior weaponry or not. Its an enormous white falsehood that all slaves were bought from Africans. The reason the point is irrelevant is because the US would be paying the reparations. Also Black people understand the circumstances those countries were in. The countries that participated in the trade have already offered their reparations to Black Americans.

 

[Asclepias]

Where is my reparations from the Africans that enslaved my great great great grandfather in 1834?
Where are the black americans reparations from the tribal leaders that sold their great great great grandfather for a bucket of oranges?

Good gawd americans are so entitled...

Your reparations are in court. All you have to do is bring suit.

 

[JBvM]

I dont think the Africans have anything to do with the US slave policy. I think thats simply a deflection from the issue. Africans didnt force the US to keep slavery for 300 plus years and subsequent methods of robbing Blacks of wealth and the ability to vote for another 50 plus years. Reparations should be paid by the countries that practiced it to the the people in their country that were and still are affected by it. Its the collective responsibility of the country to pay. Not individuals that profited peripherally.

African countries benefited. The fact that only a few leaders were in control and benefiting is irrelevant. In the island during the 1600s, Europeans tried using poor indentured Europeans as labor ,and it failed, illness, disease, - and when they tried using the native population, it was horrific , because contact with Europeans exposed them to diseases they had no immunity from. Africans became the main source of labor after trial and error (as the overseers saw it). Reparations for slavery is a separate issue than one of robbing "wealth and the ability to vote for another 50 plus years" and i'd disagree that any 'wealth'as robbed. During the Industrial Revolution most people who supplied all the labor benefited not, They suffered and were used and thrown away

Reparations that would only be paid "by the countries that practiced it to the the people in their country that were and still are affected by it." would be a spurious solution, and a denial of the big picture. This is not an argument against some sort of reparations, and is not an excuse. It is an honest and open look at the issue that is not narrow and has no agenda on my part.

The very idea that individual African families and tribes that today have incredible wealth, who's foundations trace back to the slave trade should be exempt in any discussion and solution is to me 'despicable' and 'dishonest' and 'disgusting.' I'm not accusing you of this. I am simply pointing out that people with agendas have helped form your opinions and mine.

 

[JBvM]

I wont be holding my breath for either.

-MLK

I wouldnt either. I will never give away my hard earned money to people that didnt earn it, for things i had nothing to do with.
I imagine there are over 100M people that feel the same.

If you have no constructive comments to add, and want merely to troll, eff off. This comment adds nothing constructive. Nothing constructive at all. It is a not-so-veiled attempt at insulting and pissing on a conversation

go away little man

 

[JBvM]

I wont be holding my breath for either.

-MLK

I wouldnt either. I will never give away my hard earned money to people that didnt earn it, for things i had nothing to do with.
I imagine there are over 100M people that feel the same.

You give away money if you pay taxes. I wouldnt come to you and ask you specifically for reparations. Hell you couldnt afford it.

Please, do not feed the fauna

 

[TNHarley]

I wont be holding my breath for either.

-MLK

I wouldnt either. I will never give away my hard earned money to people that didnt earn it, for things i had nothing to do with.
I imagine there are over 100M people that feel the same.

If you have no constructive comments to add, and want merely to troll, eff off. This comment adds nothing constructive. Nothing constructive at all. It is a not-so-veiled attempt at insulting and pissing on a conversation

go away little man

Reparations arent "constructive" I dont believe in "sins of the father" and all that bullshit. Because that is exactly what it is.
Call it trolling and attack me if it makes you feel better, IDC. Im not a bedwetter.
If you dont agree with what i said, maybe you can elaborate, instead of your ad homs(irony alert. ANOTHER one)

 

[Asclepias]

I dont think the Africans have anything to do with the US slave policy. I think thats simply a deflection from the issue. Africans didnt force the US to keep slavery for 300 plus years and subsequent methods of robbing Blacks of wealth and the ability to vote for another 50 plus years. Reparations should be paid by the countries that practiced it to the the people in their country that were and still are affected by it. Its the collective responsibility of the country to pay. Not individuals that profited peripherally.

African countries benefited. The fact that only a few leaders were in control and benefiting is irrelevant. In the island during the 1600s, Europeans tried using poor indentured Europeans as labor ,and it failed, illness, disease, - and when they tried using the native population, it was horrific , because contact with Europeans exposed them to diseases they had no immunity from. Africans became the main source of labor after trial and error (as the overseers saw it). Reparations for slavery is a separate issue than one of robbing "wealth and the ability to vote for another 50 plus years" and i'd disagree that any 'wealth'as robbed. During the Industrial Revolution most people who supplied all the labor benefited not, They suffered and were used and thrown away

Reparations that would only be paid "by the countries that practiced it to the the people in their country that were and still are affected by it." would be a spurious solution, and a denial of the big picture. This is not an argument against some sort of reparations, and is not an excuse. It is an honest and open look at the issue that is not narrow and has no agenda on my part.

The very idea that individual African families and tribes that today have incredible wealth, who's foundations trace back to the slave trade should be exempt in any discussion and solution is to me 'despicable' and 'dishonest' and 'disgusting.' I'm not accusing you of this. I am simply pointing out that people with agendas have helped form your opinions and mine.

Those African countries you say benefited have nothing to do with the point of reparations here in the US. Its a separate issue primarily because there is no way to involve them since its another country. Again I see it as a deflection and stalling tactic to bring in another soverign nation for what the US did and did for over 300 plus years.

 

[JBvM]

I dont think the Africans have anything to do with the US slave policy.

Except without them there is and transatlantic slave trade. And because some people use it as a deflection in some arguments, does not make it irrelevant to a serious discussion of reparations. I loved watching Christopher Hitchens address this issue. Chris was an old lefty who spent a great deal of time in Africa and defending Africans in arguments for decades before it was hip

Thats patently false as Europeans showed up with guns and took Blacks for the slave trade. There was going to be a slave trade regardless if Africans fought against the superior weaponry or not. Its an enormous white falsehood that all slaves were bought from Africans. The reason the point is irrelevant is because the US would be paying the reparations. Also Black people understand the circumstances those countries were in. The countries that participated in the trade have already offered their reparations to Black Americans.

Europeans could not have survived long on the African continent back then. Africans dictated when, where, and how the slave trade would work. American has been paying for slavery all along (social strife and more). Letting certain African families and nations off the hook seems crazy. Why would any descendant want to ignore the causes of their ancestor's bondage and suffering in America?

If we are to say today that issues of racial inequality come out of slavery, why stop there? Why not go deeper and admit slavery came out of Africa. Africans under no threat of force, captured, enslaved and then traded their kinfolk (well not really tribal kin). Funny how I saw an African woman who is a docent at the place the slaves were shipped out of. She said she could always tell American Blacks from other Blacks by they way they react when confronted with inconvenient facts and a fuller picture of hat transferred generations ago. That Woman is a product of both sides of the African Transatlantic Slave business. Her story is not unique in that area. As with Southerners in the USA, many people in that area of Africa have what we can call 'mixed' blood. Masters commingled with Slaves

 

[JBvM]

I wont be holding my breath for either.

-MLK

I wouldnt either. I will never give away my hard earned money to people that didnt earn it, for things i had nothing to do with.
I imagine there are over 100M people that feel the same.

If you have no constructive comments to add, and want merely to troll, eff off. This comment adds nothing constructive. Nothing constructive at all. It is a not-so-veiled attempt at insulting and pissing on a conversation

go away little man

Reparations arent "constructive" I dont believe in "sins of the father" and all that bullshit. Because that is exactly what it is.
Call it trolling and attack me if it makes you feel better, IDC. Im not a bedwetter.
If you dont agree with what i said, maybe you can elaborate, instead of your ad homs(irony alert. ANOTHER one)

Not a bedwetter? Oh my apologies. A bedshitter?

 

[JBvM]

Those African countries you say benefited have nothing to do with the point of reparations here in the US. Its a separate issue primarily because there is no way to involve them since its another country. Again I see it as a deflection and stalling tactic to bring in another soverign nation for what the US did and did for over 300 plus years.

Yes they do and no they do not. It depends on the parameters of the conversation. Those nations have nothing to do with how the US will settle the question. Never said they do or should,. But in the broader arguments of culpability, based on moralism and ethics they surely do have a role in the conversation, and should ultimately pay something like the US will.

It is not a stalling tactic or a deflection to be honest and open about why and how things came to be. Whether the African families and nations are held to account is not tied to arguments here. But again, it is part of the broader arguments. N one made the colonists engage in the slave trade, and no one forced the Africans to capture, enslave, and sell those human beings

 

[JBvM]

Reparations arent "constructive" I dont believe in "sins of the father" and all that bullshit. Because that is exactly what it is.
Call it trolling and attack me if it makes you feel better, IDC. Im not a bedwetter.
If you dont agree with what i said, maybe you can elaborate, instead of your ad homs(irony alert. ANOTHER one)

I see.ween trolling being called out, then putting up a more mature front. Are you on medications for this

 

[TNHarley]

I wont be holding my breath for either.

-MLK

I wouldnt either. I will never give away my hard earned money to people that didnt earn it, for things i had nothing to do with.
I imagine there are over 100M people that feel the same.

If you have no constructive comments to add, and want merely to troll, eff off. This comment adds nothing constructive. Nothing constructive at all. It is a not-so-veiled attempt at insulting and pissing on a conversation

go away little man

Reparations arent "constructive" I dont believe in "sins of the father" and all that bullshit. Because that is exactly what it is.
Call it trolling and attack me if it makes you feel better, IDC. Im not a bedwetter.
If you dont agree with what i said, maybe you can elaborate, instead of your ad homs(irony alert. ANOTHER one)

Not a bedwetter? Oh my apologies. A bedshitter?

You have the self awareness of a dead fly