Trump needs to win now.

[gipper]

From the OP:

"This has to work, for our sake, and for the sake of our kids."

I am capitulating. It's over. The die is cast. Barring something major happening, there is no turning back now. We're at Square One in an all-new new global game. I assume we all know that.

I really thought I had made this simple enough in the OP. Damn. I keep over-estimating.

If only that were true.

 

[rightwinger]

Everything with Trump comes down to $$$$
What is in it for me?

The idea of alliances is foreign to Trump, he has no personal friends
A Win/Win agreement is unacceptable because it allows the other side to win
Other countries are learning to let Trump think he got the best of you…even if he lost

 

[rightwinger]

No you’re not. You think Trump’s approach is dumb. You prefer the status quo of entangling alliances, which hasn’t worked out so well.

Our NATO status quo has kept Europe safe for 80 years and kept Russia in check

Trump has made it clear that he will not support NATO and given Putin what he always wanted.
A breakup of the Western Alliance

 

[gipper]

Our NATO status quo has kept Europe safe for 80 years and kept Russia in check

Trump has made it clear that he will not support NATO and given Putin what he always wanted.
A breakup of the Western Alliance

Yeah but you forgot something, which you often do.

The reason for NATO was to contain the USSR, yet it died a peaceful death three decades ago.

 

[22lcidw]

I know the arguments for what is happening. That is not the point of this thread.

It would be nice to get some original thinking about how this works going forward.

The standard attacks and platitudes won't add to the conversation. As usual.

That was refreshing what we saw yesterday. The major difference is that Trump's cabinet are not socialist communist insurrectionists like Progs are and a percentage were in his last administration.

 

[Nuthin' Fancy]

No, he's put Americans back into the pilot seat.

Alliances lead to quagmires. Everlasting entanglements that eventually are in no one's best interests (looking at you, NATO).

Transactional relationships give both sides an incentive to work together as long as they mutually benefit. There is no point in a relationship that isn't mutually beneficial.

The "Pilot" is a blind drunk.

 

[Nuthin' Fancy]

That was refreshing what we saw yesterday. The major difference is that Trump's cabinet are not socialist communist insurrectionists like Progs are and a percentage were in his last administration.

 

[Curried Goats]

I'll try again.

What do the next 20, 50 years look like, now that the world can no longer trust America to be anything but transactional?

How long do you think Presidential terms last for?

 

[1srelluc]

I can see I've made this too difficult.

I'll remain confident we'll get some intelligent, original thinking here.

You keep using those words but I don't think you know what they mean or how it's applied in the real world.

The best of original thought does not come to anyone instantly, the best folks at it have to mull it over it over for more than a bit.

So, asking for "original thinking" in this format is a canard.....All you will get here is off the cuff opinions.

 

[Mac1958]

Everything with Trump comes down to $$$$
What is in it for me?

The idea of alliances is foreign to Trump, he has no personal friends
A Win/Win agreement is unacceptable because it allows the other side to win
Other countries are learning to let Trump think he got the best of you…even if he lost

The world, and particularly our former friends and allies, still have to work with us on many things -- hence Trump's "you need us more than we need you, so nyah nyah nyah" foreign policy. So they'll need to adopt a hybrid approach in which they deal with us in one way, and with their friends and allies in another way.

Then, over time, as other options develop they'll just move to those. That will include things like tech and manufacturing. I saw that Canada and China are talking, and that Ukraine is looking at selling rare earth materials to Europe. I don't know if any of those will happen this fast, but that's an example.

I hope that Tulsi Gabbard and Marco Rubio know that the door to some kinds of overseas intelligence is probably closed.

It is what it is. But I think Europe will be changing its approach pretty quickly now.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Only Mac1958 can come up with 365 different ways to basically, always, say - "TTRRUUUUUMMPP!!!! AAAAAUUUUUUUGGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DonGlock26]

Trump has pushed America out of the airplane.

More TDS crazy talk.

 

[Mac1958]

They have nothing. No surprise.

Shallow, calcified, caveman thinking, 24/7/365.

 

[berg80]

No, he's put Americans back into the pilot seat.

Alliances lead to quagmires. Everlasting entanglements that eventually are in no one's best interests (looking at you, NATO).

Transactional relationships give both sides an incentive to work together as long as they mutually benefit. There is no point in a relationship that isn't mutually beneficial.

When NATO allies came to our defense after 9/11 was that a quagmire?

 

[Mac1958]

When NATO allies came to our defense after 9/11 was that a quagmire?

Say goodbye to THAT one.

 

[JoeB131]

I look forward to any thoughtful, original, intelligent thoughts.

Why, you just put people who contradict you on ignore.

I've spent a lot of time viewing commentary from around the world on what is happening to America, and about what happened between Trump, Vance and Zelensky at the White House. I guess I'll say this: The "good news" is that they appear to be getting it now. They appear to understand that Trump does not want ties, he wants transactional relationships.

I think the world realized this from his first term. The bigger problem is not that the relationships are transactional, but that Trump governs based on his own petty ego. America really isn't going to get anything from selling Ukraine down the river, but because Zelenskyy inadvertently got Trump into his first impeachment, he just wants revenge, because he's that petty.

Trump's whole career has been one act of pettiness after another. You seem to never want to acknowledge this basic reality, Vichy Mac.

Not only does it appear that the world is now understanding this, but it also appears that the world is prepared to embrace it with America. No relationship building, no sharing of what we have or know or can find out. They appear to be ready to set us apart from them, with all future dealings to be on a transactional basis only. I think there will be a time of mourning, but Europe and rest of the world knows they can't wait to act now. They have to detach.

Or they can just wait for Trump to be gone in 3 1/2 years.

The problem with Europe (and by that I mean the EU) is that economically, it's a bigger economy than the US or China and dwarfs Russia. But they refuse to translate that into military power. On this point, Trump is kind of correct, that they have benefitted from American protection without having to expend their own resources.

A British Diplomat said the purpose of NATO was to "Keep the Americans in, the Russians out, and the Germans down."

Clearly, the Americans no longer want to be in. Keeping the Germans down is impractical; they dominate Europe's economy right now. So, if the goal is still to keep the Russians out, then they have to consider how they are going to do that.

Trump has pushed America out of the airplane. None of us know the actual quality of our parachute. This has to work, for our sake, and for the sake of our kids. We've passed the Rubicon now. It's America Alone.

Um, you see, this is where you are kind of a drama queen. Trump will pass, and we will wake up from this hangover embarrassed and slightly chastened.

The bigger problem is, can America continue as a super power with crushing debt and military strength that, frankly, we are unable to sustain? In WW2, the US Army was able to field 91 Army Divisions and six Marine divisions. When I was in the service back in the 1980's, we fielded 16 Active duty divisions (with 10 in reserve) and three marine divisions. Today, the Army can only field 8, and we saw the strain put on the National Guard/Reserves with constant activations and deployments during the Iran/Afghanistan conflicts.

The other question is, how much value is military strength today? Russia can barely crush Ukraine. The US failed it's attempts to subjugate Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[Manonthestreet]

The world, and particularly our former friends and allies, still have to work with us on many things -- hence Trump's "you need us more than we need you, so nyah nyah nyah" foreign policy. So they'll need to adopt a hybrid approach in which they deal with us in one way, and with their friends and allies in another way.

Then, over time, as other options develop they'll just move to those. That will include things like tech and manufacturing. I saw that Canada and China are talking, and that Ukraine is looking at selling rare earth materials to Europe. I don't know if any of those will happen this fast, but that's an example.

I hope that Tulsi Gabbard and Marco Rubio knows that the door to some kinds of overseas intelligence is probably closed.

It is what it is. But I think Europe will be changing its approach pretty quickly now.

Especially when they go Islamic.

 

[SweetSue92]

If anyone disagrees with this, please jump in.

I've spent a lot of time viewing commentary from around the world on what is happening to America, and about what happened between Trump, Vance and Zelensky at the White House. I guess I'll say this: The "good news" is that they appear to be getting it now. They appear to understand that Trump does not want ties, he wants transactional relationships.

By "transactional relationship", I mean like walking into a 7-11. You don't know the cashier, they don't know you. You grab a candy bar because you want it. The cashier wants a dollar. You give the cashier the dollar, and you walk out. You may see or interact with the cashier in the future, or you may not. When you walk out the door, that relationship is over until further notice.

Not only does it appear that the world is now understanding this, but it also appears that the world is prepared to embrace it with America. No relationship building, no sharing of what we have or know or can find out. They appear to be ready to set us apart from them, with all future dealings to be on a transactional basis only. I think there will be a time of mourning, but Europe and rest of the world knows they can't wait to act now. They have to detach.

Trump has pushed America out of the airplane. None of us know the actual quality of our parachute. This has to work, for our sake, and for the sake of our kids. We've passed the Rubicon now. It's America Alone.

I look forward to any thoughtful, original, intelligent thoughts.

Vladimir Putin's Kremlin celebrates as Donald Trump ends Ukraine talks

The much-anticipated meeting between Donald Trump and Volodymyr Zelensky ended in a shouting match.

www.express.co.uk

I'm not sure you realize how much this post reveals....about you.

Because grown adults understand that most of life is "transactional". Of course you do not have a relationship with a cashier, or even those you think you might: your doctor, your kids' teachers, etc. That doesn't give license to be unkind, impolite, or disrespectful. It does mean someone has role X and someone else has role Z.

Trump is a president. His job is not to be friends with the entire world.

Again, what a revealing post.

 

[justoffal]

I'll try again.

What do the next 20, 50 years look like, now that the world can no longer trust America to be anything but transactional?

This is a very easy equation.. effort in equals results out. The United States has spent the past 50 years finding ways to decrease personal effort. Both Russia and China have spent the past 50 years finding ways to increase personal effort. There is no longer any possibility of breaching The Gap. The only thing we can hope for is that internal problems in both countries will eventually be their undoing.
If not then you can expect the natural results of standing down and becoming disinvolved via insane egalitarian dreams that have nothing to do with reality.. China will lead the world at Russia will be a close ally while the United States will become subservient with very little to say about it and no way to fix it.

 

[Correll]

If anyone disagrees with this, please jump in.

I've spent a lot of time viewing commentary from around the world on what is happening to America, and about what happened between Trump, Vance and Zelensky at the White House. I guess I'll say this: The "good news" is that they appear to be getting it now. They appear to understand that Trump does not want ties, he wants transactional relationships.

By "transactional relationship", I mean like walking into a 7-11. You don't know the cashier, they don't know you. You grab a candy bar because you want it. The cashier wants a dollar. You give the cashier the dollar, and you walk out. You may see or interact with the cashier in the future, or you may not. When you walk out the door, that relationship is over until further notice.
...

Alternate possible explanation. Over time due to America being led by leaders that did not see it as their job to pursue American interests,

ALL our relationships slowly became dysfunctional.


Thus, when America got tired of that, and elected a president who does his job of protecting and advancing AMERICAN interests, our "Abusive boyfriends" got pissed off and our relationships got rocky.


What would have happened if Ukraine and Europe just followed Trump's lead on the negotiated deal? Would Trump have appreciated the support, or simply told them, transaction over, get out of my store you loser you.